Shower Woes

GreeBo · 07-08-2020 10:55am #1

Hey all,

I'm having a bizarre issue with a Triton T90SR thats under a year old.

Mostly it works just fine, however it will randomly switch off while in use, sometimes it might die after 5 mins, sometimes it will run fine for 45 mins.

all normal enough so far...
When it does die the blue power indicator goes out, but when you use the power switch on the shower the light comes back on?!

The 45amp double pole isolation switch has a power led that stays lit throughout.
Sometimes turning this on and off will "reset" the shower, but often not.
Sometimes flicking the RCBO will also reset it, sometimes not.

Any ideas? I've checked wiring at all connections and nothing suspicious (no burning etc) all connections are tight...

I would have thought it could be TCO but the power light thing has me thrown. The RCBO has never tripped, but once I was in the shower when it died and it actually came back on by itself, the power light flicked on and off a few times before finally staying on and the water also came back on.

Also shower is under a year old, would TCO be normal to fail so soon?

Cheers!

aido79 · 07-08-2020 10:57am

GreeBo wrote: »

Hey all,

I'm having a bizarre issue with a Triton T90SR thats under a year old.

Mostly it works just fine, however it will randomly switch off while in use, sometimes it might die after 5 mins, sometimes it will run fine for 45 mins.

all normal enough so far...
When it does die the blue power indicator goes out, but when you use the power switch on the shower the light comes back on?!

The 45amp double pole isolation switch has a power led that stays lit throughout.
Sometimes turning this on and off will "reset" the shower, but often not.
Sometimes flicking the RCBO will also reset it, sometimes not.

Any ideas? I've checked wiring at all connections and nothing suspicious (no burning etc) all connections are tight...

I would have thought it could be TCO but the power light thing has me thrown. The RCBO has never tripped, but once I was in the shower when it died and it actually came back on by itself, the power light flicked on and off a few times before finally staying on and the water also came back on.

Also shower is under a year old, would TCO be normal to fail so soon?

Cheers!

Did you check if there might be a loose connection at the RCBO?

punisher5112 · 07-08-2020 10:59am

Most likely a neutral loose.... Need to check connection at pull cord as this is most common place to go especially if people are constantly switching on/off... Sisters blew through 3 switches in just over a year....

GreeBo · 07-08-2020 11:02am

punisher5112 wrote: »

Most likely a neutral loose.... Need to check connection at pull cord as this is most common place to go especially if people are constantly switching on/off... Sisters blew through 3 switches in just over a year....

It's on a "cooker switch" rather than a pull cord and I actually replaced the original one (the same issue was happening) for one with a power indicator so I could potentially easily trace where things were going wrong, doesnt seem to have made any difference.

GreeBo · 07-08-2020 11:03am

aido79 wrote: »

Did you check if there might be a loose connection at the RCBO?

Nope I didnt actually, will check that now!
Other than actually finding a loose wire, would the test on the RCBO fail if there were bad connections?
Probably impossible to say since its not a repeatable issue

GreeBo · 07-08-2020 11:06am

Hmm, test function on the RCBO is doing SFA now, though I know for a fact that it has worked before.
We might be onto something here!

punisher5112 · 07-08-2020 11:39am

GreeBo wrote: »

Hmm, test function on the RCBO is doing SFA now, though I know for a fact that it has worked before.
We might be onto something here!

Replace, if it's acting up, may well be loose connection there.

Was just saying a lot of times it's at the isolated switch ...

GreeBo · 07-08-2020 3:03pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Replace, if it's acting up, may well be loose connection there.

Was just saying a lot of times it's at the isolated switch ...

Yeah but I replaced the switch and same issue, so I'm pretty sure its not the switch ( I dont think I'm that unlucky, unless some other issue is causing the switch to fail)

I'll replace the RCBO and see if it helps, bit suspicious that it too is now acting up.

punisher5112 · 07-08-2020 3:57pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah but I replaced the switch and same issue, so I'm pretty sure its not the switch ( I dont think I'm that unlucky, unless some other issue is causing the switch to fail)

I'll replace the RCBO and see if it helps, bit suspicious that it too is now acting up.

Wiring should be checked at any connection or termination.

Sleeper12 · 08-08-2020 8:19am

Obviously it's not the shower that's at fault. That leaves 3 things it could be. Least likely is damaged cable. Then it's a toss up between the RCBO being faulty (in my experience RCBO is the most likely one) & the pull cord switch.

My advice is to call in a REC to sort it out

adrian92 · 09-08-2020 12:43am

Is there a possibily that some ever-temperature sensor os , perhaps causing a nuisence .
Others may have a view.

To the OP try using thecshower a5 oow temperatute and see if all ok.
Then increase thevtemperature and see if a proplek

I suspect an internal temperature sensir is the ful0rit

Sleeper12 · 09-08-2020 9:50am

Three things happen when you turn on the shower. Blue power light will be on, Motor kicks i & solenoid opens. There is no part in the shower that can cause all of these to fail at the same time. It's definitely not the shower at fault. It is fault at RCBO, fault at isolation switch, loose connection. My money is on faulty RCBO but you really should have a REC check it out, make repairs/safe & issue you with a cert

GreeBo · 11-08-2020 6:22pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Three things happen when you turn on the shower. Blue power light will be on, Motor kicks i & solenoid opens. There is no part in the shower that can cause all of these to fail at the same time. It's definitely not the shower at fault. It is fault at RCBO, fault at isolation switch, loose connection. My money is on faulty RCBO but you really should have a REC check it out, make repairs/safe & issue you with a cert

Since the test button isn't working it would seem that at least something is wrong with the rcbo, but I would have expected either power or no power... Not this weird mix.
Led on isolation switch so works, blue light on shower comes in when shower button is switched off?!

If it was a computer I'd reboot it!!

Bruthal · 11-08-2020 6:42pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Since the test button isn't working it would seem that at least something is wrong with the rcbo, but I would have expected either power or no power... Not this weird mix.
Led on isolation switch so works, blue light on shower comes in when shower button is switched off?!

Indications a Neutral has a bad connection. With shower off, phase into indicator light and out to a floating neutral, enough to light it. Shower on has floating neutral connected to the phase, both at same potential now, indicator light off.

If the isolator indicator light stays on through all this, it usually indicates the bad connection is from the outgoing side of the isolator, or at the shower itself.

But strange things happen that differ from the expected, especialy with LED & neon indicators. Bad connection somewhere anyway.

Sleeper12 · 11-08-2020 6:45pm

GreeBo wrote:

Since the test button isn't working it would seem that at least something is wrong with the rcbo, but I would have expected either power or no power... Not this weird mix. Led on isolation switch so works, blue light on shower comes in when shower button is switched off?!

This is exactly what I'd expect from a faulty RCBO or isolation switch. I've seen it 100s of times over the years. An RCBO can just not work. This is easy to identify the problem. It's when it works & stops passing power mid shower that it's not quite as obvious.

Blue light on the shower should be on when the shower is off. If it goes out when you try power it up, this indicates that it's not getting 230V.

I'd turn it off at the RCBO & don't let anyone use it until you get a REC to replace the RCBO & issue a safety certificate.

Bruthal · 11-08-2020 6:54pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Blue light on the shower should be on when the shower is off. If it goes out when you try power it up, this indicates that it's not getting 230V.

It indicates the N is possibly missing. Pressing start button on the shower powers up solenoid etc, enough to bridge out an LED that is connected from Phase to floating Neutral. An Led can light when connected from intact phase to a floating neutral, but will go out if anything else is connected in parallel with it.

Although a Phase that is a poor, almost open circuit, can cause it too of course, but leans toward neutral with the indicator evidence.

RCBO could be the problem, or could just have a failed tripping/test mechanism which is only coming to light when another problem arises.

Or if the connections supplying the RCBO are bad, its test button might not operate, along with the shower.

A electrician with a meter would find the problem in minutes if the problem is not intermittent.

GreeBo · 12-08-2020 1:00am

Unfortunately it is intermittent, it could work for days and then suddenly go mid shower

I'm away this week and we haven't used it since I first posted, I'll get the rcbo replaced anyway and can see what's what then.

Bruthal · 12-08-2020 6:42am

GreeBo wrote: »

Unfortunately it is intermittent, it could work for days and then suddenly go mid shower

I'm away this week and we haven't used it since I first posted, I'll get the rcbo replaced anyway and can see what's what then.

Even if replacing that fixes it, I'd still get the main terminals in the shower itself looked at for signs of burning as well. Signs of overheating connections would usually be seen somewhere, which could be at the rcbo, isolator or shower itself.

Sleeper12 · 12-08-2020 8:58am

GreeBo wrote: »

Unfortunately it is intermittent, it could work for days and then suddenly go mid shower

I'm away this week and we haven't used it since I first posted, I'll get the rcbo replaced anyway and can see what's what then.

I'd be willing to wager this will resolve your promlem

Bruthal · 12-08-2020 10:05am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'd be willing to wager this will resolve your promlem

It might, but I'd stil be checking all connections involved.

GreeBo · 20-08-2020 2:36pm

Bruthal wrote: »

It might, but I'd stil be checking all connections involved.

I had already checked all the connections bar the RCBO and no issues found.

Anywho, Im back this week and my replacement RCBO arrived, as I was about to install it I noticed that the neutral out was loose, so I tightened it and low and behold the test button was working again, as was the shower itself.

Much rejoicing until the following morning when the shower and test button were once again kaput.

Just replaced the RCBO now and actually had a shower, so all seems well.

Cheers for all the help, never occurred to me that the RCBO could have an intermittent fault!

Fingers crossed for tomorrow morning!

Sleeper12 · 20-08-2020 2:42pm

GreeBo wrote:

Cheers for all the help, never occurred to me that the RCBO could have an intermittent fault!

This doesn't always occur to electricians either

aido79 · 20-08-2020 4:37pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I had already checked all the connections bar the RCBO and no issues found.

Anywho, Im back this week and my replacement RCBO arrived, as I was about to install it I noticed that the neutral out was loose, so I tightened it and low and behold the test button was working again, as was the shower itself.

Much rejoicing until the following morning when the shower and test button were once again kaput.

Just replaced the RCBO now and actually had a shower, so all seems well.

Cheers for all the help, never occurred to me that the RCBO could have an intermittent fault!

Fingers crossed for tomorrow morning!

aido79 wrote: »

Did you check if there might be a loose connection at the RCBO?

Do I get a prize for guessing correctly?:)

punisher5112 · 20-08-2020 4:40pm

aido79 wrote: »

Do I get a prize for guessing correctly?:)

Look back I stated a loose neutral as a common cause....

GreeBo · 20-08-2020 4:48pm

aido79 wrote: »

Do I get a prize for guessing correctly?:)

punisher5112 wrote: »

Look back I stated a loose neutral as a common cause....

LOL, you were both wrong, while there was a loose neutral, but the actual problem was a dodgy RCBO!

John.G · 20-08-2020 4:49pm

Is/were there two faults so, a faulty RCBO+loose neutral out? because why would the loose neutral out cause the RCBO not to trip on test, shouldn't a RCD or RCBO operate on the test button with neither the L out or the N out not connected to anything?.

GreeBo · 20-08-2020 4:52pm

John.G wrote: »

Is/were there two faults so, a faulty RCBO+loose neutral out? because why would the loose neutral out cause the RCBO not to trip on test, shouldn't a RCD or RCBO operate on the test button with neither the L out or the N out not connected to anything?.

I guess its possible that the loose neutral damaged the RCBO (though no evidence of that) the fundamental issue seems to be the dodgy RCBO alright.

Its highly possible that while fixing the loose neutral out I temporarily resolved the issue in the RCBO, which ultimately failed again and so I replaced it. (meanwhile its all still working 6 or so hours later!)

aido79 · 20-08-2020 4:54pm

GreeBo wrote: »

LOL, you were both wrong, while there was a loose neutral, but the actual problem was a dodgy RCBO!

I would imagine the loose neutral caused the RCBO to become dodgy.

aido79 · 20-08-2020 4:57pm

John.G wrote: »

Is/were there two faults so, a faulty RCBO+loose neutral out? because why would the loose neutral out cause the RCBO not to trip on test, shouldn't a RCD or RCBO operate on the test button with neither the L out or the N out not connected to anything?.

An RCD or an RCBO requires both live and neutral to be connected. It detects a difference in current between them.

John.G · 20-08-2020 5:13pm

If I connect a L & N to RCD/RCBO but connect nothing on the load side will they trip if I press the test button?

aido79 · 20-08-2020 5:52pm

John.G wrote: »

If I connect a L & N to RCD/RCBO but connect nothing on the load side will they trip if I press the test button?

Yes it should. This would be the same as testing it with the shower off.

Bruthal · 20-08-2020 5:53pm

John.G wrote: »

If I connect a L & N to RCD/RCBO but connect nothing on the load side will they trip if I press the test button?

It will, if you connect phase and N to either side.

punisher5112 · 21-08-2020 3:46pm

GreeBo wrote: »

LOL, you were both wrong, while there was a loose neutral, but the actual problem was a dodgy RCBO!

Rcbo was fine.... Was loose neutral, hence why I said this happen a lot

John.G · 21-08-2020 4:16pm

RCBO was fine??, Greenbo said the problem was a dodgy RCBO??

punisher5112 · 21-08-2020 4:18pm

John.G wrote: »

RCBO was fine??, Greenbo said the problem was a dodgy RCBO??

Yeah they tighten loose neutral and it worked

John.G · 21-08-2020 4:23pm

He replaced the RCBO with a new one, see post #27.

punisher5112 · 21-08-2020 4:25pm

John.G wrote: »

He replaced the RCBO with a new one, see post #27.

Sorry didn't see that, possible it damaged it then.

GreeBo · 21-08-2020 4:36pm

#itsstillworking!

Bruthal · 21-08-2020 5:54pm

We could make up an example, independent of the thread here, but similar circumstances, as an RCD with a loose connection to it also. Shower is not working.

RCD is replaced, now the shower works perfectly. Was the RCD faulty in this made up example?

John.G · 21-08-2020 8:45pm

I would examine failed RCD/RCBO for any signs of heat damage, if none connect via a 13A plug and cable and close the switch, press test button, if it operates, connect say electric kettle (full of water) to load end which will give some loading of 8/10A then repeat test with loaded RCD. While the above doesn't prove that the RCD will operate at ~ 40A, it will give some indication, but would not re use it if RCBO because of doubt that it will trip in o/load/short circuit conditions.

GreeBo · 31-08-2020 11:28am

Bruthal wrote: »

We could make up an example, independent of the thread here, but similar circumstances, as an RCD with a loose connection to it also. Shower is not working.

RCD is replaced, now the shower works perfectly. Was the RCD faulty in this made up example?

But this ignores that I first fixed the loose connection, but the issue still occurred...

In your example there is no way to know as not enough testing was done.

John.G · 31-08-2020 12:16pm

If you still have the RCD can you carry out a test like I suggested avove or just connect up a supply and see if it trips and has continuity through both neutral and live.

Bruthal · 31-08-2020 12:19pm

GreeBo wrote: »

But this ignores that I first fixed the loose connection, but the issue still occurred...

In your example there is no way to know as not enough testing was done.

It was a point in general.

GreeBo · 31-08-2020 2:18pm

John.G wrote: »

If you still have the RCD can you carry out a test like I suggested avove or just connect up a supply and see if it trips and has continuity through both neutral and live.

It was dumped I'm afraid.

Shower Woes

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