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Nest Thermostat Question

  • 08-04-2020 9:54am
    #1
    PCros
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭


    I am currently looking at moving over to Electric Ireland for dual fuel and they have a promotion at the moment for a Nest thermostat for €130.

    In terms of the house, its a small 3 bedroom semi so is there a need for zoning? Or would it be worthless just using the Nest to essentially turn the heating on and off etc. Or are the other features that are beneficial?

    Thanks in advance


Comments

  • #2
    peteb2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭peteb2


    Sure that's the purpose of it! To turn the heating on and off. The joys of the nest is that it "learns" what temperature you like your house at at certain times and it makes the adjustments automatically. If you just want to turn the heating on and and off then you're probably better off with a climote.


  • #3
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,658 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Main benefit is that it keeps the heating off if the house is empty as opposed to regular timers that will have it on if you end up going away or staying out longer.


  • #4
    T-b0n3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,459 ✭✭✭T-b0n3


    I use Nest thermostats in my 3 bed semi. Our house was zoned for upstairs and downstairs and had climote installed previously. Climote is very limited.

    I'm very happy with Nest. I have the learning features disabled but it's easy to set schedules and adjust on the fly as required. Heating only comes on if required to reach set temps, the ensures the house remains at those temps etc.

    I also signed up to electric Ireland and got the deal, bit was over a year ago.


  • #5
    PCros
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭PCros


    T-b0n3 wrote: »
    I use Nest thermostats in my 3 bed semi. Our house was zoned for upstairs and downstairs and had climote installed previously. Climote is very limited.

    Did EI zone this for you or was it already done?

    Also is it a big job to zone?


  • #6
    T-b0n3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,459 ✭✭✭T-b0n3


    PCros wrote: »
    Did EI zone this for you or was it already done?

    Also is it a big job to zone?

    Mine was already zoned so not sure on that to be honest. I'd imagine it's a bit of a job.

    EI did install them for me though.


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  • #7
    peteb2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭peteb2


    PCros wrote: »
    Did EI zone this for you or was it already done?

    Also is it a big job to zone?

    EI wont zone. They will only replace like for like. So if you have a timer they will remove the timer and plug in a nest. That's what happened here. I had to get a plumber out to do the rest. I got the house zoned and i have a nest upstairs and downstairs.


  • #8
    PCros
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭PCros


    peteb2 wrote: »
    EI wont zone. They will only replace like for like. So if you have a timer they will remove the timer and plug in a nest. That's what happened here. I had to get a plumber out to do the rest. I got the house zoned and i have a nest upstairs and downstairs.

    Thank you.

    Can I ask if you don't mind how much it was to zone off upstairs and downstairs?


  • #9
    John_Mc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,791 ✭✭✭John_Mc


    PCros wrote: »
    Thank you.

    Can I ask if you don't mind how much it was to zone off upstairs and downstairs?

    Just got this done in our house. There was no thermostats and only a single zone with on/off. We had new water system (hot and cold) installed and then added 3 zones (upstairs, downstairs and hot water) installed using 2 Nest thermostats.

    The cost of the zones and thermostats (not including purchase of thermostats) was €1,300.

    We live in Limerick and didn't price around so not sure if that's good or bad. I do know there was a fair amount of work running pipes with attic motorised valves running from boiler downstairs to new system in attic. The electrician was working on it for a good while too.


  • #10
    peteb2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭peteb2


    PCros wrote: »
    Thank you.

    Can I ask if you don't mind how much it was to zone off upstairs and downstairs?

    Didnt cost me anything. I spoke to a plumber and it was done under upgrading heating controls or carbon credits or something. He applied to the SEAI and a BER assessor was out.

    We had two stats in the house already, upstairs and downstairs but when i had the gas boiler serviced when we bought the place last year, they said the stats were both dead and useless. and it wasnt zoned at that point.


  • #11
    John_Mc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,791 ✭✭✭John_Mc


    Worth pointing out that you had the necessary wiring and plumbing for multiple zones though. That's where the work/cost is when adding retrospectively.


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  • #12
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    What drives me potty is that there's no boost function on the app. I don't use the timer, I just ask Alexa to boost for 2 or 3 hours when I feel it getting chilly. If I'm coming home and I want to turn it on remotely I have to set a recurring timer, unless I'm missing something obvious.


  • #13
    peteb2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭peteb2


    John_Mc wrote: »
    Worth pointing out that you had the necessary wiring and plumbing for multiple zones though. That's where the work/cost is when adding retrospectively.

    Not according to the fella servicing my gas boiler. And not according to the EI fella who was happy to just plug my nest into a socket on the wall and walk away from the thing!! :mad:


  • #14
    peteb2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭peteb2


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What drives me potty is that there's no boost function on the app. I don't use the timer, I just ask Alexa to boost for 2 or 3 hours when I feel it getting chilly. If I'm coming home and I want to turn it on remotely I have to set a recurring timer, unless I'm missing something obvious.

    Nope/ The joys of the nest is to keep the house at the defined temp. So you have it at 19 it will pre-heat to have it at 19 for that time. No boost.


  • #15
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,658 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    What drives me potty is that there's no boost function on the app. I don't use the timer, I just ask Alexa to boost for 2 or 3 hours when I feel it getting chilly. If I'm coming home and I want to turn it on remotely I have to set a recurring timer, unless I'm missing something obvious.

    There is a boost. You just turn up the the thermostats. Forget about On off , it’s temperature based, set the temperature to what you want it to be.


  • #16
    RunDMC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 338 ✭✭RunDMC


    ted1 wrote: »
    There is a boost. You just turn up the the thermostats. Forget about On off , it’s temperature based, set the temperature to what you want it to be.

    I agree on the boost; that's just not how it works. But I do get frustrated by the Home/Away thing sometimes. I have to remind myself to switch it back to home when I'm half-an-hour away from home so it's up to temperature when we arrive.

    I haven't found a way around this.

    R


  • #17
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,658 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    RunDMC wrote: »
    I agree on the boost; that's just not how it works. But I do get frustrated by the Home/Away thing sometimes. I have to remind myself to switch it back to home when I'm half-an-hour away from home so it's up to temperature when we arrive.

    I haven't found a way around this.

    R
    Have you got geo fencing turned on ? Once I’m on the way home mine has learned to turn it on


  • #18
    RunDMC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 338 ✭✭RunDMC


    ted1 wrote: »
    Have you got geo fencing turned on ? Once I’m on the way home mine has learned to turn it on

    Yes, but it doesn't turn on till I actually get home.

    R


  • #19
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,385 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    I had a nest for about a year, then shipped it on. Too many frustrating points.

    1. Our house isn't zoned, so the lack of a "boost" as previously mentioned would of been handy to give some extra heat to other rooms when needed. Turning up the thermostat temperature a) set the livingroom (where I had the nest) to too high a temperature, and b) "educated" the nest to say I wanted the room warmer, when in fact I didn't.

    2. The thresholds above and below the set temperature were too great for us, and the nest too ages to sense the current temperature. Setting the room to 18.5 degrees would end up having the house at 20 degrees easily. This caused us to let the heating run, then flick the thermostat down to 18 degrees to turn off the heating when we felt it was warm enough, and then back up to 18.5 so it would learn that's the temperature we wanted. In doing this, the temperature would then level off in the room around 19-19.5 degrees. Why not set the temperature to 18 degrees I hear you say. Because doing so meant the room would have to fall to 17.5 degrees (actually 17.7 according to the nest manual), which because of the slowness of the nest to adapt to the actual temperature, meant we would be frozen in the room, begging the nest to flick the heating on.

    3. Home/Away. Didn't work. We'd be in the pub a 20 minute walk away, well outside our geo-fenced zone and the heating would be belting away at the house.

    Replaced it all with a sonoff basic and xiaomi wireless temperature sensors, controlled by home assistant. Can't fault it now this last 2 years


  • #20
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,658 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Number 1 makes no sense.
    You have 1 zone. Boosting / increasing the temperature would both cause the temperature to increase.


  • #21
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,385 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    ted1 wrote: »
    Number 1 makes no sense.
    You have 1 zone. Boosting / increasing the temperature would both cause the temperature to increase.

    Yup. It did. But then nest would assume I want the living room hotter and "learn" that it should schedule the room a bit warmer, when in fact, I just wanted the bedrooms to heat up a bit before heading to bed.

    Point 2 exacerbated point 1. I know I want to boost the heating for 20 minutes, but the nest will take 40 minutes to recognise it has heated up by that half a degree, then turn off, and then slowly realise it has overheated the room (ie. the slowness of the nest getting the actual room temperature).

    Since i've installed our new system, i've barely had to touch the thermostat.


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  • #22
    punisher5112
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,644 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    I don't get the issue, use your phone or tablet, on the way home hit the temperature up....

    House be nice and cozy when you get home.

    You can set schedule too for whatever time you like.


  • #23
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,385 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    I don't get the issue, use your phone or tablet, on the way home hit the temperature up....

    House be nice and cozy when you get home.

    You can set schedule too for whatever time you like.

    I'm not talking about on my way home. I'm saying I would be in my house, a room without the nest is a bit nippy, I want to get a boost of heat. I don't want the nest thinking "hey, this guy wants 20 degree heat in his house" because I don't.

    Points 2 and 3 were the main issues for us.

    As a side note, with my DIY system, I can set it to automatically turn on the heating when I leave work. I've not bothered because it's not been needed, but it's something the nest can't do - though the nest couldn't do the basics right either.


  • #24
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,658 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Black_Knight wrote: »
    Yup. It did. But then nest would assume I want the living room hotter and "learn" that it should schedule the room a bit warmer, when in fact, I just wanted the bedrooms to heat up a bit before heading to bed.
    .

    But with 1 zone, to heat the bedrooms you do need to heat the living room. Unless you split the zones, that’s always going to be the case.

    Maybe you should have just moved the thermostat to a different location. Sounds like that was the issue.

    I have mine in the hall and haven’t had any of the issues you had.

    As for taking so long to heat the house. Mine is fairly responsive and cuts off once temperature is achieved. Again it may be an issue of where it’s placed or you may have simply had it set to high.

    Geo fencing works for me without any issue it’ll turn off when I leave. How did you know it was on? Might it have turned in when you started to come home. Or did you or whoever else have the app turned off location services ?


  • #25
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,385 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    ted1 wrote: »
    Maybe you should have just moved the thermostat to a different location. Sounds like that was the issue.

    I have mine in the hall and haven’t had any of the issues you had.

    I did. Moved it around a bit, but never found a best place for it (multiple places in the living room, the bedroom, kitchen). Granted, since i've dumped it we've replaced our front door (hall was always freezing) and that's helped keep the house from losing heat.
    ted1 wrote: »
    But with 1 zone, to heat the bedrooms you do need to heat the living room. Unless you split the zones, that’s always going to be the case.
    Correct. I'm ok with that, but having to bump up the thermostat and then remember to drop it back down 20 minutes later is a pain. A simple 20 minute "boost" would do so. I implemented this in my own setup, but actually haven't used it in probably over a year.


  • #26
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,385 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    ted1 wrote: »
    As for taking so long to heat the house. Mine is fairly responsive and cuts off once temperature is achieved. Again it may be an issue of where it’s placed or you may have simply had it set to high.

    Geo fencing works for me without any issue it’ll turn off when I leave. How did you know it was on? Might it have turned in when you started to come home. Or did you or whoever else have the app turned off location services ?

    I've my new sensor in the same place as the old nest, and it picks up the current temperature much quicker. Heating set to the same temperatures as the nest was set to. It wasn't an issue of the house taking too long to heat up, it was an issue of the nest taking too long to cop on to the actual temperature in the room.

    Wife and I had the app. Both in the pub, both location services turned on. I opened the app and it said the house was heating. Our status was "home".
    I integrated my home automation setup with Nest, which was aware of my (and my wifes) location and used that to tell Nest when I was home/away. This worked much better than Nests out of the box setup.


  • #27
    punisher5112
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,644 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Get a nest upstairs and one downstairs....


  • #28
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,385 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Get a nest upstairs and one downstairs....

    Think about that one for a second... :rolleyes:


  • #29
    punisher5112
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,644 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Black_Knight wrote: »
    Think about that one for a second... :rolleyes:

    No just saying, obviously can get trv set up where each room can be controlled separate...

    I you had 2 thermostat already what I said would be perfect.


  • #30
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,385 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    No just saying, obviously can get trv set up where each room can be controlled separate...

    I you had 2 thermostat already what I said would be perfect.

    If I had 2 thermostats, yes. But this would mean I had a zoned house. Without zoning both thermostats would be acting upon the one boiler, one conflicting with the other.

    If I was starting from scratch, without knowledge of my own setup, i'd likely have gone the Tado route, with individual smart TRVs on each rad. Pricey, but more suited to my 1 zone house. That said, having had my current setup for 2 years now, I couldn't justify the price of all those TRVs. My clearest endorsement of my DIY system is that my wife doesn't complain about it.


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  • #31
    PCros
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭PCros


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Get a nest upstairs and one downstairs....

    So two questions from the last few posts...

    1) @Black_Knight - Why were you trying to heat a cold room upstairs when your house isn't zoned? Apologies if I'm reading it wrong...

    2) @punisher5112 - What advantages does having two Nest's if the house is not zoned?

    TIA


  • #32
    peteb2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭peteb2


    PCros wrote: »
    So two questions from the last few posts...

    2) @punisher5112 - What advantages does having two Nest's if the house is not zoned?

    TIA

    This ones simple. Dont need to wait for Punisher! If the house isn't zoned, you can't have two nests. No reason for it. Doesnt work that way.


  • #33
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,385 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    PCros wrote: »
    So two questions from the last few posts...

    1) @Black_Knight - Why were you trying to heat a cold room upstairs when your house isn't zoned? Apologies if I'm reading it wrong...

    2) @punisher5112 - What advantages does having two Nest's if the house is not zoned?

    TIA

    Correct. Living room was warm enough because we were in it mostly, but other rooms (bedroom for example) cooled down quicker so we wanted to "boost" their temperature.


  • #34
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,385 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    peteb2 wrote: »
    This ones simple. Dont need to wait for Punisher! If the house isn't zoned, you can't have two nests. No reason for it. Doesnt work that way.

    The system I put together allows me to select which temperature sensor to base my heating off of. So during the day it's based on the living room, during the night it's based on the bedroom. Best of all worlds


  • #35
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,658 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Black_Knight wrote: »
    The system I put together allows me to select which temperature sensor to base my heating off of. So during the day it's based on the living room, during the night it's based on the bedroom. Best of all worlds

    Nest does effectively that, you just set the temperature to what you want it at night.


  • #36
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,385 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    ted1 wrote: »
    Nest does effectively that, you just set the temperature to what you want it at night.

    But basing the heating off of a room I'm not sleeping in (and thus contributing warmth to) isn't useful.

    This thread has really derailed. I'm happy with my decision. I was just informing the op of my experience with the nest thermostat.


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  • #37
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    We use Nest with learning mode off, geo fencing off.

    The benefit of it is that we can control heating & water via the App, and set flexible schedules.

    Questions I have based on schedule usage, learning mode disabled:
    - If I have it set to 19 degrees at 9am, does that mean it comes on at 9am and heats to/maintains 19 degrees until it hits the next schedule? Or does it mean it comes on at a time to attempt to be 19 degrees at 9am
    - Similar for "off time", if I have heating on from 5pm to 9pm at 20 degrees, so at 9pm it is set to 9 degrees, should it be aiming to keep temp at 20 degrees until 9pm, at which time it turns off?


  • #38
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,658 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    BoardsMember wrote: »
    We use Nest with learning mode off, geo fencing off.

    The benefit of it is that we can control heating & water via the App, and set flexible schedules.

    Questions I have based on schedule usage, learning mode disabled:
    - If I have it set to 19 degrees at 9am, does that mean it comes on at 9am and heats to/maintains 19 degrees until it hits the next schedule? Or does it mean it comes on at a time to attempt to be 19 degrees at 9am
    - Similar for "off time", if I have heating on from 5pm to 9pm at 20 degrees, so at 9pm it is set to 9 degrees, should it be aiming to keep temp at 20 degrees until 9pm, at which time it turns off?

    If you set to 19c at 9am. That means you want it to be 19c @9am. So the NEST will have learned how long it takes to heat your house from x degrees and will turn on your heating at a time that ensures it’s at 19c for 9am


  • #39
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    ted1 wrote: »
    If you set to 19c at 9am. That means you want it to be 19c @9am. So the NEST will have learned how long it takes to heat your house from x degrees and will turn on your heating at a time that ensures it’s at 19c for 9am

    Thanks. Even with learning mode off?

    Does that mean it turns off early too?


  • #40
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,398 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    BoardsMember wrote: »
    Thanks. Even with learning mode off?

    Does that mean it turns off early too?

    It maintains the temperature as long as you ask it to. It will turn off once it hits the temperature you want but it will come on as it needs to to keep it at that temp for the period specified. Keeping the house at 20 degrees for 5 hours might only have the oil on for 90 minutes overall for example.


  • #41
    RunDMC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 338 ✭✭RunDMC


    BoardsMember wrote: »
    Thanks. Even with learning mode off?

    Does that mean it turns off early too?

    Yes, even with learning mode off. That's the "smart" part of smart thermostat. Otherwise it's just a timer. The "learning" refers to the schedule. If you have a schedule set, but you always turn the temperature to 20C at 7am each morning it will learn that and add it to the schedule.

    R


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  • #42
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    Nest was unplugged by the kids. Hasn't automatically reconnected to the WiFi.

    When I scroll to Settings it confirms Internet Disconnected. I go into settings and try to click Network, but it doesn't click into it. Says Not Connected and Low Battery. Anyone any ideas how I reconnect when I canr access Network menu item?

    Is it normal that it doesn't reconnect automatically? Seems a really bad system design if so.


  • #43
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,385 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    Low battery nest shuts down wifi. Plug it back in, wait a while. Should reconnect as far as I remember.

    Point 5 here:
    https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/9243422?co=GENIE.Platform%3DAndroid&hl=en
    If your thermostat’s battery level is low, it will disconnect from Wi-Fi. This is to conserve power so it can continue controlling your system.


  • #44
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    Thanks Black Night.

    It's a pretty crap system design that doesn't reconnect within a few minutes when on mains. And no way to override to force it to connect.

    Wife not happy, was due to wash hair firs thing!!


  • #45
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    Found this in the FAQ:

    "If your thermostat’s battery level is low, it will disconnect from Wi-Fi. This is to conserve power so it can continue controlling your system."

    Really not very well thought out. When it is on mains it should always be able to be online. Battery should not come into it. Otherwise it just doesn't work, it loses date/time having been off, so it doesn't control the system at all, and you cant connect it to the system because it is offline.

    Just having a rant! It reconnected, about 70 mins after being plugged back in.


  • #46
    kmart6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,172 ✭✭✭✭kmart6


    For anyone who has got the Nest Thermostat from Electric Ireland has it been possible to get it and not have them install it? Looking to get it but not ready for an install straight away, have a friend who will be in a position to install it when we're ready.

    I know people will just say wait until EI can do it but looking to just get hold of the unit and then have it installed when it suits us and not having to deal with an engineer visit.


  • #47
    peteb2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭peteb2


    kmart6 wrote:
    For anyone who has got the Nest Thermostat from Electric Ireland has it been possible to get it and not have them install it? Looking to get it but not ready for an install straight away, have a friend who will be in a position to install it when we're ready.


    Just ask. They shouldn't care too much. They only install like for like and just left ours plugged into the wall after connecting the units to the boiler.


  • #48
    kmart6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,172 ✭✭✭✭kmart6


    Was just trying to see over the weekend here if anyone had experience with it.

    Had time to reach out to them via web chat today and the answer I got was if they didn't install it the warranty would be void :rolleyes: so need to ring them to bottom it out fully.


  • #49
    Genghis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Genghis


    kmart6 wrote: »
    For anyone who has got the Nest Thermostat from Electric Ireland has it been possible to get it and not have them install it? Looking to get it but not ready for an install straight away, have a friend who will be in a position to install it when we're ready.

    I know people will just say wait until EI can do it but looking to just get hold of the unit and then have it installed when it suits us and not having to deal with an engineer visit.

    Was in the same scenario a few months back. You might have better luck than me, but under no circumstance would they do this for me. I asked at the time of ordering, I also asked the installer.

    In fact the installer called to me, discovered the electrician had not left everything 100% right, and took the Mini away with him until he came back a few weeks later to complete. The Electrician offered him to leave the Nest to him.

    Installer told me its part of their contract - I think they need to show the job signed for and photographed, by certified installer, etc.


  • #50
    kmart6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,172 ✭✭✭✭kmart6


    Think it could be something to do with them needing the proof of install to be able to make the claim for whatever grant is available.


  • #51
    punisher5112
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,644 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Let them fit, if you need to move or whatever do after, makes little difference


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