Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Mother & baby home, Cork: only 64 of 900-plus baby graves found

  • 17-04-2019 11:29pm
    #1
    Posts: 0


    Not Tuam; another mother and baby home now, this time in Cork.

    Today, the 5th Interim Report of The Mother and Baby Homes Commission of Investigation under Justice Yvonne Murphy made its report. Its findings concerning Bessborough home in Cork city are Tuam-style in scale, with loads more questions to be answered. It looks from this like these bastards could get away with ever accounting for all these deaths of babies in their care. Make no mistake but that the state's organisations which were supposed to supervise these institutions and record all these deaths share much of this guilt with the RCC.

    The report found no physical or documentary evidence of systematic burials in the grounds of the Bessborough home and maternity hospital in Cork city.

    But considers it "highly likely" that burials of some of the 900 plus babies and children who died while they were residents of Bessborough from the 1920s to the 1980s took place in the extensive campus, which at one stage was over 150 acres in area.

    A search of official burial places in the Cork area found records of just 64 of the children concerned.

    It says that representatives of the institution's owners, the Sisters of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary, told the commission it had very little information on burials as Bessborough's records were held by Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, and it had no access to them.

    The report states that a number of the congregation's nuns provided affidavits and/or oral evidence to the commission but "were able to provide remarkably little evidence about burial arrangements".

    The latest interim report of the commission throws light on serious concerns about burial practices at a number of former maternity institutions.

    Meanwhile, the chairperson of the Coalition of Mother and Baby Home Survivors group says the Bessborough 'Little Angles' plot has "effectively disappeared".

    Paul Redmond, who was born in a mother and baby home, says the revelation in today's report from the Commission of Investigation is "absolutely shocking" and will be "very upsetting and distressing" for the families of babies who died.

    He says people have been holding commemorations since 2014 at the site where they thought the burial ground was located, on the grounds of the former mother and baby home in Cork.

    Mr Redmond says now "nobody knows where between 700 and 900 babies are buried and they could be anywhere".

    And he says he fears that "as things stand, it looks like there is no possibility of finding out" where any of the remains are actually located.

    Paul Redmond says "we will be left with a lot of unanswered questions, forever" and he believes that people who may have information regarding the burial of babies at mother and baby homes "are afraid to come forward".


    Within the past two months, the commission has excavated an area in the grounds of the former home at Sean Ross Abbey in Co Tipperary.... The report also states that, to date, the commission has identified the burial places of just 64 of Bessborough''s 900-plus child residents who died between 1922 and 1998.

    It recalls that members of the public responded "with mostly second-hand information" to the commission’s appeal for information on burials in Bessborough and that all of this information was followed up.

    "...the locations identified as possible burial sites ....were assessed by forensic archaeologists," the report continues. "Some ....have been built on. To date, no physical or documentary evidence has been produced which suggests that any of the sites identified by members of the public contain human remains," it states.

    However, the commission also examined the burial records of seven of the eight burial grounds that were in operation in Cork city and its hinterland between 1922 and 1998, the period under review.

    So far the commission has been unable to locate the burial records for Cork District Cemetery, Carr’s Hill.

    However, a former administrator of St Finbarr’s Hospital in Cork who had access to hospital mortuary records, told the commission that many of the significant number of Bessborough children and babies who died there were buried in the graveyard at Carr’s Hill.

    He recalled that this was done after the South Cork Board of Public Assistance assumed responsibility for their burials.

    The commission finds records of 58 burials between 1922 and 1928 in St Joseph’s Cemetery, Tory Top Road, Cork.

    It says that it appears that after 1928, "some alternative burial arrangements were made for the deceased Bessborough children".

    It found records of two child residents being buried in St Michael’s Cemetery in Blackrock which was opened in 1957.

    A further four children recorded as buried in St Finbarr’s Cemetery in Cork had an association with Bessborough.

    Adding together the deaths of so-called "illegitimate" children from Bessborough, St Finbarr’s Hospital and the Cork County Home, the commission has established that 1,343 died at the three locations.

    "Despite having undertaken intensive investigation, the burial locations of 1,279 of these children remain unknown," the report states
    .


«13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭orourkeda1977


    If this was a dogs home or a stable, there would be a raft of protesters outside the door.


  • Posts: 5,311 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A permanent stain on the legacy of our state. Horrific.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,029 ✭✭✭Rhys Essien


    A lad phoned up a radio station in Cork about two years ago. He said he worked for a funeral home a few decades ago. Every so often he was told to call to Bessborough. A nun would come to the door with a dead child wrapped up and tell him to put it down the end of a coffin of someone due to be buried.

    The man was still traumatized from it.

    Evil f*ckers so they were.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    My heart goes out to all the mothers that are directly affected by this many of whom are suffering in private because their story was hidden at the time, imagine not knowing what happened to your own baby, it must be heartbreaking for them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,004 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    The nuns must have had big issues. Well they sure as heck were not Christian in their outlook.

    Must have been money at the end of the day, along with a hatred of those who had conjugal relations with a man. Which they could not have. Ever according to their vows.

    The men responsible for the babies have been written out of history though, naturally. Always the woman's fault.


  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    On the BBC's report this evening it states:
    However, as no physical evidence of possible locations was found, the commission did not consider it feasible to excavate 60 acres "not to mention the rest of the former 200-acre estate"

    In this day and age, could geophysical surveys/sonar imaging, etc or even aerial photography not be able to highlight disturbed land/probable burial grounds without going through the expense and futility of full excavations over such a large area?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,004 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    On the BBC's report this evening it states:



    In this day and age, could geophysical surveys/sonar imaging, etc or even aerial photography not be able to highlight disturbed land/probable burial grounds without going through the expense and futility of full excavations over such a large area?

    Indeed, archaeologists do this. I remember a program on BBC (I think) with Tony Robinson and they used geophys regularly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,275 ✭✭✭Your Face


    And nobody knew anything


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,956 ✭✭✭✭Mam of 4


    It's so sad . Their existence as babies was denied , and now they're still being denied by their remains not being looked for .

    Just horrible :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,004 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Mam of 4 wrote: »
    It's so sad . Their existence as babies was denied , and now they're still being denied by their remains not being looked for .

    Just horrible :(

    And the mammies too. Some of them are still alive and must be still traumatised, poor women.

    The men seem to be anonymous. Handy that.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,956 ✭✭✭✭Mam of 4


    And the mammies too. Some of them are still alive and must be still traumatised, poor women.

    The men seem to be anonymous. Handy that.

    Oh I wasn't ignoring the mothers Spainish Eyes , their pain and grief is unimaginable , and probably worsened by that report .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    And the mammies too. Some of them are still alive and must be still traumatised, poor women.

    The men seem to be anonymous. Handy that.

    Not their fault. They were powerless, no rights to step in and take the child and that's if they even knew, many probably didn't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 693 ✭✭✭The Satanist


    The cancer of christianity, and specifically catholicism, needs to be permanently removed from our country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭MintyMagnum


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Not their fault. They were powerless, no rights to step in and take the child and that's if they even knew, many probably didn't.

    And many most certainly did, but they didn't want to deal with the consequences. And they didn't have to. They got to walk away, with their liberty & reputation intact. It was easier to lock up these 'problematic' women and their children, where they wouldn't be a financial burden or embarrassment, out of sight, out of mind after all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    who sent these women to the nuns?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,093 ✭✭✭Sheep breeder


    who sent these women to the nuns?

    This seems to be a question nobody wants to answer and these were part of the problem.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    On the BBC's report this evening it states:



    In this day and age, could geophysical surveys/sonar imaging, etc or even aerial photography not be able to highlight disturbed land/probable burial grounds without going through the expense and futility of full excavations over such a large area?

    I'm a local. Bessboro and the other convents here all gradually sold their land for development. My house is built on old convent grounds for example. It's been well and truly disturbed ground since.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Mam of 4 wrote: »
    It's so sad . Their existence as babies was denied , and now they're still being denied by their remains not being looked for .

    Just horrible :(

    How is it any different to what we we've done in the last 12 months in legalising there killing under the guise of "medical care".

    It's total hypocrisy by society.

    At the time families said these women were bringing shame on them. They wanted rid of them. The nuns were told these women and children were of no value.
    When everyone says they were of no value and had done shameful things why are we surprised at the outcome.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,457 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    How is it any different to what we we've done in the last 12 months in legalising there killing under the guise of "medical care".

    It's total hypocrisy by society.

    At the time families said these women were bringing shame on them. They wanted rid of them. The nuns were told these women and children were of no value.
    When everyone says they were of no value and had done shameful things why are we surprised at the outcome.


    They were indoctrinated into believing it was shameful.
    The mothers no doubt wanted their kids,but the spiteful society constructed by the church wouldn't allow it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Tilikum17


    The cancer of christianity, and specifically catholicism, needs to be permanently removed from our country.

    100%


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    The cancer of christianity, and specifically catholicism, needs to be permanently removed from our country.

    and what will replace it? because something will fill the vaccum and it wont be a utopian dream.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,457 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    and what will replace it? because something will fill the vaccum and it wont be a utopian dream.


    Nothing wrong with Christianity if if isn't wrapped in hatred for everything not like us.


    Not sure there is a vacuum anyway. People believe or not it makes no odds to their daily lives.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    Yeah, I find it narrow minded and short sighted for people to indulge in scape-goating the church for all the evils of what were actively nurtured within the society. A good friend of mine from another country who is a scholarly Catholic notes that these mother and baby homes, the Magdalene launderies, etc were a peculiarly Irish phenomenon. Instead of scape-goating we should be asking what it was about us as a people that we tolerated and enabled cultish thinking. That we embraced it, rushed forward to be part of the chain gang implementing it. Our long history of subservience and colonisation perhaps?

    I experienced the very tail end of this uniquely ''Irish'' approach to children born outside wedlock, and was rejected by my very Catholic mother for having a baby while young. Attempts were made to have the child removed from me, or be ostracised from family. I chose the latter. Thankfully that was at a time when there had been enough movement in the wider societies attitudes that I basically did not GAF what anyone thought of me. But ten years earlier it would have been harder - to get a flat, to get a job, to get support with an ''illegitimate'' child.

    I always thought it was the collusion between communities and the church that led to this disgrace in our history. Funnily enough, though I left the Church at 16, I have not ever felt this psychotic anger towards it that so many seem to have. It seems cultish to be so religiously atheistic. Fundamentalism in another guise.

    On the matter of the burials, I'm not sure why geophysics hasn't been used more fully - perhaps it is suspected that the burials grounds are under housing estates and this would lead to huge problems. There are also problems with excavation of the remains - it is a difficult ask for ordinary site archaeologists to go into the Tuam burial for example - it is a big topic among the site workers- would you? could you? that kind of thing. Talk even of having to bring in non-national archaeologists because it would be so provoking of many Irish, and naturally so. Body after tiny body, day in day out, painstakingly uncovered, inspected, preserved, moved, managed - it would be a very hard job mentally. And for poor pay too!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    The cancer of christianity, and specifically catholicism, needs to be permanently removed from our country.

    That's the problem, when people don't know the difference between Christianity and Religion. You get statements like this.^^^


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    kneemos wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with Christianity if if isn't wrapped in hatred for everything not like us.


    Not sure there is a vacuum anyway. People believe or not it makes no odds to their daily lives.

    If it's wrapped in hatred, it's not Christianity.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    kneemos wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with Christianity if if isn't wrapped in hatred for everything not like us.


    Not sure there is a vacuum anyway. People believe or not it makes no odds to their daily lives.

    There will always be a vacuum, kneemos. An atheist who buys a Euromillions ticket where the odds of winning are 140,000,000:1 is putting his need for hope into something else. Where there's life there's a need for hope. Religion, gambling, need for hero figures, etc are part of the same massive hope industry. Ernest Becker's Pulitzer Prize winning Denial of Death is an absolutely brilliant analysis of the human need for hope (and of much else) that everybody should read.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Not their fault. They were powerless, no rights to step in and take the child and that's if they even knew, many probably didn't.

    Which poses a question I had never thought of: before the 80s/90s, were many children raised solely by their father while the mother lived somewhere else and stayed out of their lives?

    Unlike in France where social history dominates research funding, social history is ridiculously under researched in Irish universities; for very historic reasons, namely aping the English Tory emphasis on "constitutional" history (No thank you, UCD's Robert Dudley Edwards), political history is where the research money goes in Ireland. Time for the state's funders to stop this cycle and focus on funding social history for the first time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,084 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    A lad phoned up a radio station in Cork about two years ago. He said he worked for a funeral home a few decades ago. Every so often he was told to call to Bessborough. A nun would come to the door with a dead child wrapped up and tell him to put it down the end of a coffin of someone due to be buried.

    The man was still traumatized from it.

    Evil f*ckers so they were.

    How were non-home babies buried at the time? Did they get separate coffins and plots?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Reviews and Books Galore


    The nuns must have had big issues. Well they sure as heck were not Christian in their outlook.

    Must have been money at the end of the day, along with a hatred of those who had conjugal relations with a man. Which they could not have. Ever according to their vows.

    The men responsible for the babies have been written out of history though, naturally. Always the woman's fault.

    Perhaps blame the nuns who brutalized the women and the various women who brought them to the homes. Tbh, this was seen as women's business and I don't think men had that much to do with it.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Living Off The Splash


    Did the children even die or were they sold off to some Catholic family in the U.S so they could have a "better" Christian life.
    A neighbour of mine used to bring babies to the U.S on a regular basis for the nuns.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Perhaps blame the nuns who brutalized the women and the various women who brought them to the homes. Tbh, this was seen as women's business and I don't think men had that much to do with it.

    Except maybe that the men who ruled society decided it was women's business?

    You can be sure plenty of men in Irish governments and in the Irish civil service were signing off on the cheques which funded this inhumanity. Damned sure. Blind eyes turned everywhere by people in power because, well, these women weren't quite as valuable as the daughters of the local gp or local big farmer, and to say otherwise could lose you power, as the fate of Noel Browne showed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    This isn't that long ago guys. I still have receipts in our house from the laundries... when you ask older people, they say this was seen as supporting a charity.

    This was a service society wanted at the time.

    There was no social welfare. You were fairly doomed to destitution if you had a child out of marriage and couldn't support yourself. Women "in trouble" were sent to have this crisis in their life resolved. They came out with some kind of economically viable skill (taught to clean houses and laundry basically), and the baby was adopted. This was seen as Win win at the time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Reviews and Books Galore


    Except maybe that the men who ruled society decided it was women's business?

    You can be sure plenty of men in Irish governments and in the Irish civil service were signing off on the cheques which funded this inhumanity. Damned sure. Blind eyes turned everywhere by people in power because, well, these women weren't quite as valuable as the daughters of the local gp or local big farmer, and to say otherwise could lose you power, as the fate of Noel Browne showed.

    Or the men in society were told by the women in their lives to stay out of woman's business.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,851 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    pwurple wrote: »
    This isn't that long ago guys. I still have receipts in our house from the laundries... when you ask older people, they say this was seen as supporting a charity.

    This was a service society wanted at the time. .

    Many of the women sent to the laundries were girls, not mothers, and were sent due to the economic desires of their parents - one less mouth to feed.

    They were not compensated, and the church raised ton of money on their efforts, which the survivors are now owed, with interest.

    Who sent them? Their parents. Why? Because 1) having more children than you could manage was advocated by the RCC. It was good business for them, with the added sweetener of extra victims for pedophile priests 2) Some compensation to the parents was either explicitly given, or implied. "Send little Mary to the laundry and your eldest Colm will be admitted to school without payment." This is at present supposition on my part, but talking with neighbors here in West Kerry has confirmed this behavior.

    Work in the laundry was abusive - high temps, harsh chemicals. The nuns carefully presented the girls as being educated and doing well in their care, on the rare occasions the parents visited, but the rest of the time, there was mandatory silence at work, abusive work schedules and basically imprisonment.

    The laundries were a cash-cow for the church. Their victims are overdue compensation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,601 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    who sent these women to the nuns?

    As far as I know, in almost all cases, it was the family that sent these women to the Nuns.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,474 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    A lad phoned up a radio station in Cork about two years ago. He said he worked for a funeral home a few decades ago. Every so often he was told to call to Bessborough. A nun would come to the door with a dead child wrapped up and tell him to put it down the end of a coffin of someone due to be buried.

    The man was still traumatized from it.

    Evil f*ckers so they were.
    I think I heard the same story at one point, with the twist tacked on at the end that it was the only way for the baby to be buried on consecrated ground. I'd take a larg pinch of salt with both versions tbh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    Or the men in society were told by the women in their lives to stay out of woman's business.

    I would bet that a fair number of the babies conceived 'illegitimately' were the product of incest, another family disease to which the Irish seem peculiarly vulnerable. My theory is based on present day evidence that up to 20% of people attending Rape Crises Centres are there because of incest. Related strongly to alcohol issues, another ethnic susceptibility.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,601 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Many of the women sent to the laundries were girls, not mothers, and were sent due to the economic desires of their parents - one less mouth to feed.

    They were not compensated, and the church raised ton of money on their efforts, which the survivors are now owed, with interest.

    Who sent them? Their parents. Why? Because 1) having more children than you could manage was advocated by the RCC. It was good business for them, with the added sweetener of extra victims for pedophile priests 2) Some compensation to the parents was either explicitly given, or implied. "Send little Mary to the laundry and your eldest Colm will be admitted to school without payment." This is at present supposition on my part, but talking with neighbors here in West Kerry has confirmed this behavior.

    Work in the laundry was abusive - high temps, harsh chemicals. The nuns carefully presented the girls as being educated and doing well in their care, on the rare occasions the parents visited, but the rest of the time, there was mandatory silence at work, abusive work schedules and basically imprisonment.

    The laundries were a cash-cow for the church. Their victims are overdue compensation.

    You nicely absolved parents there, do you really think they were that naive? If it was all about just having one less mouth to feed then it would've been poor girls that went in, not poor single mothers as it generally was. These women were seen as a problem, to be straightened out by the orders. It's was not unique to single mothers either, indeed there are still those with learning disabilities living in state institutions dumped there by their families, forgotten about and never visited.

    If the women are due compensation, it's from the orders and their parents. I don't see why the state should have a liability here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,851 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    You nicely absolved parents there, do you really think they were that naive? If it was all about just having one less mouth to feed then it would've been poor girls that went in, not poor single mothers as it generally was. These women were seen as a problem, to be straightened out by the orders. It's was not unique to single mothers either, indeed there are still those with learning disabilities living in state institutions dumped there by their families, forgotten about and never visited.

    If the women are due compensation, it's from the orders and their parents. I don't see why the state should have a liability here.

    Oops. Absolutely didn't mean to resolve their parents - and all the restitution should come from the Church; getting between parents and children is probably a lost cause as I doubt many of the parents who sent their daughters to the Laundries are still around.

    But we agree both poor single mothers and young girls who weren't parents were sent in. All about the money at the end of the day.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭orourkeda1977


    I'd be surprised to hear this if the Nazis did it.

    To hear that it was caused by people of god in a "Catholic" and neutral country makes that little bit more horrifying to me.

    I've said it before but there were a couple of horses put down at the cheltenham and there was public outrage.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,942 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    who sent these women to the nuns?

    The easy answer is their families.

    However very often the family were under sustained and significant pressure from the local clergy to ensure the embarrassing situation was rectified and kept schtum.

    This was an Ireland where a boycott called by the church could cripple someone financially.
    Where ones standing in the community was dictated and controlled by the moral authority of the pulpit.

    This one does strike close to home for me.
    I was born in Bessborough to young woman whose family were put under enormous pressure to erase the stain of her disgrace.
    Pressure that was led and orchestrated by a priest who went on to become a bishop!
    Reward no doubt for his extreme Catholic, yet distinctly unchristian behaviour.

    I was lucky enough to have a Grandfather that bucked societal norms.
    To have gone home with my family, rather than be now wondering who the are or their wondering if I'm adopted, alive or dead!

    The church and it's actions towards Ireland need to be reviewed!
    Granted that review should be holistic and take into account their work in Medicine and Education and so on...
    But if we live in a society where the deliberate and sustained mistreatment of the vulnerable is acceptable as long as it's ok for the government to save a few quid on the above...
    I would weep for our humanity!

    This isn't akin to slave reparations or colonial shame!

    Many of those who are most damaged are still alive, as are many of those who inflicted the harm in the 1st place!

    If "following orders" was not a defence in Nuremberg!
    It should not be one now! Be they "holy" or otherwise!


  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭MintyMagnum


    As far as I know, in almost all cases, it was the family that sent these women to the Nuns.

    Under pressure from society/the clergy. Remember Archbishop McQuaid's power to derail Dr Browne's mother & baby healthcare plans.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,602 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    kneemos wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with Christianity if if isn't wrapped in hatred for everything not like us.


    Not sure there is a vacuum anyway. People believe or not it makes no odds to their daily lives.

    It definitely does make a difference. The level of religious belief in a society has direct impacts on how that society treats the minorities in that society. Ireland was a deeply religious country in the early 20th century when these atrocities were carried out. We heavily discriminated against women, people of other religions, homosexuals, people who were born 'outside of wedlock', atheists, young unmarried women, married women etc etc etc

    Look at the most religious places in the world today, they still have discriminatory laws preventing gay marriage, reproductive rights, and subjugating women to their husbands. Israel Falou comes from a sub-culture where religion is still a major influence and he sacrificed his career to stand up for his right to be a religious bigot. Those views are only acceptable in cultures and societies where religion is still a dominant cultural force.

    Secular democracies aren't perfect, but when you strip away the religious dogma, you free up people to express themselves to be who they feel they truly are, and you allow them to see what was always morally wrong for what it is, without the cloak of religious judgement clouding your own view of what is right and wrong.

    Where there are right wing elements pushing back against these freedoms, they are very often rooted in the remaining religious believers pushing back against liberalism.

    A very small percentage of atheists have replaced organised religion with a different kind of dogmatic political philosophy such as free market libertarianism or racial supremacism or ultra-nationalism. This is what happens when the dogmatic elements of religious belief are transposed to another dogmatic philosophy where either race, nation or free markets are elevated to almost god like status and worshipped as the solution to all of their problems.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,527 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Zorya wrote: »
    Talk even of having to bring in non-national archaeologists because it would be so provoking of many Irish, and naturally so.

    Why is that even a problem?

    It was our own kind put them there after all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I take it people are going to be arrested over this?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,601 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I take it people are going to be arrested over this?

    Maybe, but presumably most of the people responsible for this are dead.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,457 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I take it people are going to be arrested over this?

    Nothing to arrest anybody over so far.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    pwurple wrote: »
    I'm a local. Bessboro and the other convents here all gradually sold their land for development. My house is built on old convent grounds for example. It's been well and truly disturbed ground since.

    How many bodies were found?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,784 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Under pressure from society/the clergy. Remember Archbishop McQuaid's power to derail Dr Browne's mother & baby healthcare plans.

    The greatest leader we never had.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Lets be honest, we as a people have failed to cope with the challenges that a percentage of our population (like any population) will always present...we are struggling today evidently, take a walk down the main street of our largest city any day of the week to see for yourself.

    It should be remembered we locked up way more innocent men in institutions around the country known locally as lunatic facilities, most were perfectly innocent albeit challenged individuals who spent their lives in horrendous circumstances....its funny how we never really talk about those men and women...these were not church run institutions, they were run by the Department of Health....it is shameful these people will continue to be forgotten.

    Until we accept our failures as a society, and not just point the blame at whatever entity makes us feel better, we will continue to struggle with our challenges.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement