New sleepers - oak vs treated

mloc123 · 17-01-2021 8:29pm #1

Which is the better option here? Oak obviously is nicer, but will pressure treated deal last longer? They will be used for lawn edging, on the ground on a foundation of sand/gravel

curiousb · 19-01-2021 10:14am

I would guess Oak will last longer as it is a hardwood and the pressure treated sleepers you seem to get now are softwood.

Oak will be much more expensive and heavy to carry/manoeuvre, whereas the pressure treated ones are cheaper and a lot lighter (easy to cut with a saw).

I have some old proper railway sleepers in the garden from years ago but when doing up the garden recently I needed more sleepers so got the newer pressure treated ones and stained them dark. They look very well.

I'll post pics if you want.

Lumen · 19-01-2021 10:47am

I honestly don't know which will last longer, but a third option is treated (tanalised?) oak, but from what I remember the colours (brown or yellow) are unnatural.

Whichever you pick, consider how to prevent soil contact on the lawn side. Bituminous paint? Liquid DPM? DPC? Dunno.

listermint · 19-01-2021 10:48am

Lumen wrote: »

I honestly don't know which will last longer, but a third option is treated (tanalised?) oak, but from what I remember the colours (brown or yellow) are unnatural.

Whichever you pick, consider how to prevent soil contact on the lawn side. Bituminous paint? Liquid DPM? DPC? Dunno.

Soil break? Perhaps 100mm pebbles stones between

Lumen · 19-01-2021 10:53am

listermint wrote: »

Soil break? Perhaps 100mm pebbles stones between

Yeah, but the grass roots would probably grow through it in no time.

listermint · 19-01-2021 10:55am

Lumen wrote: »

Yeah, but the grass roots would probably grow through it in no time.

Probably but I'd extend a weed membrane / dpc from under the sleepers out the extra 100mm and cover with stones. Prevention. Should work well also easier to edge especially for an electric robo mower

Lumen · 19-01-2021 11:00am

I wonder whether weed membrane or DPC/paint is better in this case. I guess if you're relying on stones on the soil side for drainage then maybe the fact that weed membrane lets water through is OK, and might be an advantage to stop water being trapped.

mloc123 · 19-01-2021 11:10am

This is the route I am thinking of going alright. On one side I will have a gravel patio area, so drainage should be okay. On the other side I will have grass. I plan to dig down and lay 4 inches of pebble under the sleepers, extending a few inches out on the grass side also. I figure even with the grass grown over that layer of pebble, it should still drain away better than soil. Worst case...I *should* get 10 years from them and replace.

I was all set on oak until I googled and found a thread on piston head, people saying they had rotted within 5 years.

@curiousb if you have some pics I would love to see

listermint · 19-01-2021 11:12am

mloc123 wrote: »

This is the route I am thinking of going alright. On one side I will have a gravel patio area, so drainage should be okay. On the other side I will have grass. I plan to dig down and lay 4 inches of pebble under the sleepers, extending a few inches out on the grass side also. I figure even with the grass grown over that layer of pebble, it should still drain away better than soil. Worst case...I *should* get 10 years from them and replace.

I was all set on oak until I googled and found a thread on piston head, people saying they had rotted within 5 years.

@curiousb if you have some pics I would love to see

I'd imagine if the oak or any sleeper has routes for the water to come out and away from it, it will last a decade or more. Sloping and drainage holes etc always be thinking escape the water. Any sitting of water would lead to rot. So poorly planned would do that.

mloc123 · 19-01-2021 11:21am

listermint wrote: »

I'd imagine if the oak or any sleeper has routes for the water to come out and away from it, it will last a decade or more. Sloping and drainage holes etc always be thinking escape the water. Any sitting of water would lead to rot. So poorly planned would do that.

True, from what I saw the guy on pistonheads had put them down directly on soil and also used them as a retaining wall. So they were likely sitting in saturated soil for 6 months a year.

The Continental Op · 19-01-2021 11:23am

I can't believe anyone is selling Oak sleepers. Not fully size ones at a price anyone could afford.

Most people wouldn't know the difference between Chestnut and Oak and I know that Chestnut is sometimes sold as Oak as a result. Chestnut doesn't last as well as Oak but is a fraction the price.

awec · 19-01-2021 11:44am

I think the modern ones you get these days are larch or something. They're about 25 quid for a 2m length.

Lumen · 19-01-2021 11:48am

awec wrote: »

I think the modern ones you get these days are larch or something. They're about 25 quid for a 2m length.

No, I think they're pressure treated softwood.

I wonder whether you could use Accoya decking as lawn edging? That stuff is good for 25 years in the ground.

mloc123 · 19-01-2021 11:50am

Lumen wrote: »

I wonder whether you could use Accoya decking as lawn edging? That stuff is good for 25 years in the ground.

Funnily enough... I have about 30 x 3m lengths of this sitting out under a tarp and no current use for it.

awec · 19-01-2021 11:52am

Lumen wrote: »

No, I think they're pressure treated softwood.

I wonder whether you could use Accoya decking as lawn edging? That stuff is good for 25 years in the ground.

Just looked up my local supplier here (think I'm in the same area as you), definitely pressure treated larch.

mloc123 · 19-01-2021 11:54am

awec wrote: »

Just looked up my local supplier here (think I'm in the same area as you), definitely pressure treated larch.

Got a link? Most of my local places are treated deal afaik

Lumen · 19-01-2021 11:56am

awec wrote: »

Just looked up my local supplier here (think I'm in the same area as you), definitely pressure treated larch.

I'm in Wicklow. I see Abbeylawn even have Azobe sleepers at 45 euros a pop. Ouch!

https://www.abbeylawn.net/fencing/railway-sleepers/

The Continental Op · 19-01-2021 12:00pm

Lumen wrote: »

I'm in Wicklow. I see Abbeylawn even have Azobe sleepers at 45 euros a pop. Ouch!

https://www.abbeylawn.net/fencing/railway-sleepers/

Quite possibly illegal to sell anything treated in creosote nowadays?

https://www.epa.ie/pubs/advice/waste/transfrontiershipmentofwaste/Waste%20Re-classification%2018-10-06.pdf

Lumen · 19-01-2021 12:03pm

The Continental Op wrote: »

Quite possibly illegal to sell anything treated in creosote nowadays?

https://www.epa.ie/pubs/advice/waste/transfrontiershipmentofwaste/Waste%20Re-classification%2018-10-06.pdf

That's interesting. I don't recall seeing a statement as unambiguous as this before:

The use of creosote-treated railway sleepers in residential gardens is an illegal use under S.I. No. 220 of 2003.

Whatever about the law, I wouldn't want creosote in my own garden, particularly given the range of alternatives.

awec · 19-01-2021 12:06pm

mloc123 wrote: »

Got a link? Most of my local places are treated deal afaik

Lumen wrote: »

I'm in Wicklow. I see Abbeylawn even have Azobe sleepers at 45 euros a pop. Ouch!

https://www.abbeylawn.net/fencing/railway-sleepers/

I'm also in Wicklow.

https://www.landscapeproviders.ie/railway-sleepers/new-sleepers/modern-sleeper-100

GreeBo · 19-01-2021 12:07pm

mloc123 wrote: »

This is the route I am thinking of going alright. On one side I will have a gravel patio area, so drainage should be okay. On the other side I will have grass. I plan to dig down and lay 4 inches of pebble under the sleepers, extending a few inches out on the grass side also. I figure even with the grass grown over that layer of pebble, it should still drain away better than soil. Worst case...I *should* get 10 years from them and replace.

I was all set on oak until I googled and found a thread on piston head, people saying they had rotted within 5 years.

@curiousb if you have some pics I would love to see

Grass will invade your gravel within a season and be a total pain in the ass, the edging is there to keep the grass (and gravel) in check.

Its also not going to be fun cutting the grass beside gravel...
would you consider facing the grass side of the sleeper with a plastic grass edging strip?

I guess it depends on what you goal is here?

Lumen · 19-01-2021 12:07pm

awec wrote: »

I'm also in Wicklow.

https://www.landscapeproviders.ie/railway-sleepers/new-sleepers/modern-sleeper-100

Dublin 18? <spits> :pac:

Good find though. Larch is nice.

awec · 19-01-2021 12:28pm

Lumen wrote: »

Dublin 18? <spits> :pac:

Good find though. Larch is nice.

That's what their site says but they are have a depot in Kilpedder (or they did at least). Do you know where the DPD depot is there, just off the roundabout at the N11? They're beside it.

listermint · 19-01-2021 1:06pm

Lumen wrote: »

I'm in Wicklow. I see Abbeylawn even have Azobe sleepers at 45 euros a pop. Ouch!

https://www.abbeylawn.net/fencing/railway-sleepers/

45 , thats eye watering. Think id just build a block wall and paint sleepers on to it with crayon :P

curiousb · 19-01-2021 3:59pm

mloc123 wrote: »

...@curiousb if you have some pics I would love to see

Here you go. The darker sleepers are the old railway sleepers and they weigh a ton. They are down about 15 years and are in very good condition still.

The lighter coloured ones are the modern softwood ones and are much easier to work with but definitely won't last as long!

Alun · 19-01-2021 4:06pm

curiousb wrote: »

The lighter coloured ones are the modern softwood ones and are much easier to work with but definitely won't last as long!

We have the modern PT ones around our raised beds. They've been there 10 years now, and are still in 100% perfect condition, no different from the day they were laid apart from a change in colour of course.

mloc123 · 19-01-2021 5:13pm

Alun wrote: »

We have the modern PT ones around our raised beds. They've been there 10 years now, and are still in 100% perfect condition, no different from the day they were laid apart from a change in colour of course.

I have come to the conclusion I am over thinking this project, like most projects. I am just gonna get treated sleepers from my local place and use them... If the rot, I'll swap them out in 5-10 years.

basill · 20-01-2021 12:49am

Lumen wrote: »

That's interesting. I don't recall seeing a statement as unambiguous as this before:

Whatever about the law, I wouldn't want creosote in my own garden, particularly given the range of alternatives.

Bottom of page 1 of that link provides a get out of jail free card..."Wood having been treated with Creosote before 30 June 2003 may be placed on the second-hand market for re-use." So the can is kicked down the road to the person who buys them if they install in places where they ain't allowed as per the conditions on page 2.

mloc123 · 26-01-2021 2:13pm

In the end I went with whatever pressure treated sleepers my local landscaping place sells.

I dug down 2 inches under where the were going, and 2 inches each side. Put membrane down and the filled with stones for drainage. On the Grass side, I looped the membrane up the side of the sleeper and backfilled with an inch of stones and will then level to lawn height with an inch of soil.

I *think* this should give them a good amount of drainage. I left the hose running for a few minutes and the trench did not fill above the stone level... so they should not sit in pooled water.

Pictures of the job attached. Still need another half inch of stone all over and to backfill the soil on the lawn side.

Phase 2 of this will be to dismantle my shed... remove the rest of the concrete slab and then build a larger shed/garden room.

listermint · 26-01-2021 2:28pm

Nice Hilti

mloc123 · 26-01-2021 2:32pm

listermint wrote: »

Nice Hilti

haha, wish it was mine... hired for the weekend

New sleepers - oak vs treated

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