202 Hyundai Kona brake failure

03-09-2020 11:24am

McCrack wrote: »

[PHP][/PHP]

No - It's a mugs game - its essentially taking a loan to pay for depreciation on a car (usually bland ones too) you "buy" - a monthly payment that finances the most value the car loses in its first three years.

You're paying for depreciation regardless of what method of payment you choose, like me, the higher the mileage the higher the depreciation the difference is that my GFMV on the i3 is 15,000 that I have to decide whether I want to pay off or not, I can put a smaller deposit to another car and drive for another 3 years rather than pay that on my existing car with currently 95,000 Kms or will be 110,000 or close by the end of December, driving 50-55K Kms a year I am already out of warranty and so the risk of something costing me money grows as the car ages and mileage increases.

Anyway, next time around I could go with regular finance over 5 years, why ? well to keep monthly payments as low as possible rather than tying up cash in a car and then in 3 years time I can decide whether to trade it or keep it, trade in value on a car with 150,000 Kms or more is going to be low in 3 years regardless of what method of payment.

Anyway, I'm no longer driving the mileage where PCP makes sense but PCP isn't designed for People like me who will have 150,000 Kms or more driven in 3 years, PCP is designed for People who drive the national average or a bit more and even better if you drive less because depreciation will be much less so you will pay much less with minimal deposit.

PCP is designed to put as little cash in as possible while the dealer gets to sell you a new car every 3 years, he gets full payment for this car every 3 years.

So if doing low mileage on PCP beware of low GFMV because a low GFMV means you're putting much more into the car than you should on PCP meaning you have to put a higher deposit and most likely much higher monthly payments. PCP is for low payments and low deposit and it really isn't a bad deal if you get a sales Person who actually knows what PCP is and it isn't supposed to be like regular finance which is what many dealers are treating it as but calling it PCP many of the dealers can't even explain properly how it works.

03-09-2020 11:27am

McCrack wrote: »

Im conscious this thread isn't about pcp so I'll say this much before a mod jumps in..

The difficulty of course is a lot of people can't afford the balloon payment so they either get finance for that or give the car back and start it all over again, wash and repeat.

Clearly there's people around here involved in the motor trade and nobody likes their soup getting pissed in but that's the reality, it's a winner for the showrooms at the expense of people that get sucked into it because they can "afford" the repayments on a heavily depreciating asset. It's beyond crazy.

The issue for These People isn't PCP it's wanting the new reg. PCP is great for those low mileage drivers who change their car every 3 years, why pay the full cost of a car when you intend to change in 3 years anyway ? makes perfect sense.

listermint · 03-09-2020 11:30am

Note , should this happen to anyone in future. Don't drive to the garage . Phone insurance and have it loaded on a vehicle transport to the garage

ice.cube · 03-09-2020 1:53pm

McCrack wrote: »

Im conscious this thread isn't about pcp so I'll say this much before a mod jumps in..

The difficulty of course is a lot of people can't afford the balloon payment so they either get finance for that or give the car back and start it all over again, wash and repeat.

Clearly there's people around here involved in the motor trade and nobody likes their soup getting pissed in but that's the reality, it's a winner for the showrooms at the expense of people that get sucked into it because they can "afford" the repayments on a heavily depreciating asset. It's beyond crazy.

Isn't it a shame we do not live in a free country, where people are able to purchase what the want with their hard earned money:pac:

While it may not be for everyone, who cares what other people do with their money? I'm sure there are many that get 'sucked in' but it is their decision at the end of the day.

Kenny Logins · 03-09-2020 3:18pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Dual circuit brakes go way back - 1970's at least. So losing 1 circuit of the hydraulics shouldn't give you a total brake failure.

I've also been here. It doesn't give you a complete brake failure, but it certainly does feel like it!

wonski · 03-09-2020 3:24pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's fine if they can't fix it but if it's fixable that is all they're obliged to do you can't reject a car once purchased in Ireland as far as I'm aware and the dealer is only obliged to fix it or replace it if it's not repairable. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Otherwise they would have to make cars that never break. That is not possible.

Maybe in America, but their cars are far from perfect. Not sure how they manage that.

03-09-2020 3:28pm

wonski wrote: »

Makes perfect sense to me.

Otherwise they would have to make cars that never break. That is not possible.

Maybe in America, but their cars are far from perfect. Not sure how they manage that.

What ? I never suggested cars be made unbreakable I know that's not possible.

wonski · 03-09-2020 3:40pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What ? I never suggested cars be made unbreakable I know that's not possible.

So what is exactly different between the US and Europe /Ireland?

They have some lemon law allowing to return the car if its ****e, or fix if can be fixed.

We have similar rights. Maybe theirs is better, but it generally works.

So what's the difference?

furiousox · 03-09-2020 4:35pm

listermint wrote: »

Note , should this happen to anyone in future. Don't drive to the garage . Phone insurance and have it loaded on a vehicle transport to the garage

I was literally 500m from the garage when it happened, I crawled there with the hazards on.
Anywhere else I would have parked the b@stard up and called for assistance.

The garage assured me that hyundai would look at their report and if they found "30 or 40" similar incidences they would swiftly order a recall.
I pointed out that surely one incident was more than enough!?

wonski · 03-09-2020 5:25pm

furiousox wrote: »

I was literally 500m from the garage when it happened, I crawled there with the hazards on.
Anywhere else I would have parked the b@stard up and called for assistance.

The garage assured me that hyundai would look at their report and if they found "30 or 40" similar incidences they would swiftly order a recall.
I pointed out that surely one incident was more than enough!?

That's not how it works.

I do process recalls in food industry and we once had a tub of sweets with large metal bolt inside sized perfectly as the jellies inside. No recall.

Freak incident perhaps. We will never find out.

I guess this is similar in automotive industry if there is no pattern or anything they just "keep an eye on it".

The main difference with recalls within food products is the product is just removed from the shelves and refunds given to customers.

In car industry this means recall campaign. Expensive and brand damaging.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-09-2020 3:23am

mk7r wrote: »

This is how it works generally, there will be no brakes once a hose bursts, dual circuit or not.

Well if that was true then there would be no point.

Dual circuit means two hoses going to each front wheel operating two separate pistons (or sets of pistons.)

wonski wrote: »

In car industry this means recall campaign. Expensive and brand damaging.

It ends up a lot more expensive and damaging if they refuse to do one that they should have.

Steamed Clams · 04-09-2020 8:58am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Well if that was true then there would be no point.

Dual circuit means two hoses going to each front wheel operating two separate pistons (or sets of pistons.)

I have never seen this on any vehicle, other than the linked brakes on some Honda motorbikes. Dual circuit just means there are two separate circuits, operated by two pistons in the master cylinder. In theory, a failure in one circuit should still give you full braking performance in the other, as it's still a sealed system. In practice though, if there's a serious enough leak (as in the OP's case), the fluid goes low enough that the MC is dragging air into the second circuit and the pedal is a paperweight.

Manual handbrake will always slow the car even with no fluid. What a lot of people don't realise though, is that pressing the button for an electric handbrake while the car is moving will attempt to operate the ESC servos to apply the service brakes for an emergency stop, and not apply the handbrake motors. I have no idea what happens in the scenario where there's no fluid, hopefully the system is smart enough to fall back on applying the electric handbrake to stop the car? Any guinea pigs want to drain their brake fluid and find out?

wonski · 04-09-2020 9:37am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Well if that was true then there would be no point.

Dual circuit means two hoses going to each front wheel operating two separate pistons (or sets of pistons.)

It ends up a lot more expensive and damaging if they refuse to do one that they should have.

What I meant is I don't think they start the process just because of one or even two incidents.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-09-2020 6:03pm

Just checked in the wife's car manual and I'm a bit shocked to find out that the two circuits only operate one front wheel and one rear wheel each! so only one hose and piston at each wheel.

First car I ever worked on the brakes on was my dad's, later my mam's 1981 Austin Metro. Not known for advanced safety features or advanced much really, but it had 4-piston front calipers with 2 hoses going to each front wheel. So whichever circuit went, you still had both front brakes. No brake servo though...

You can't drag air into the good circuit unless you're pumping the pedal, fluid (or air) enters the system on the return stroke. If you press the brake and the pedal goes down more than it should you're supposed to just push right down and keep it there.

extra-ordinary_ · 04-09-2020 8:43pm

Augeo wrote: »

Indeed, it's a cable essentially.

Electronic is not a cable, a button electrically activates a motor that pushes the brake piston(s) against the discs - no cable involved unless you mean electrical cable.

mk7r · 07-09-2020 11:47am

extra-ordinary_ wrote: »

Electronic is not a cable, a button electrically activates a motor that pushes the brake piston(s) against the discs - no cable involved unless you mean electrical cable.

Some electric handbrake systems have normal calipers and brake cables and the motor is centrally located pulling on the cables to activate.

RandomViewer · 07-09-2020 11:55am

mk7r wrote: »

Some electric handbrake systems have normal calipers and brake cables and the motor is centrally located pulling on the cables to activate.

Avensis uses cables , central electronic unit pulls them

07-09-2020 12:10pm

extra-ordinary_ wrote: »

Electronic is not a cable, a button electrically activates a motor that pushes the brake piston(s) against the discs - no cable involved unless you mean electrical cable.

I meant cable as per the below

mk7r wrote: »

Some electric handbrake systems have normal calipers and brake cables and the motor is centrally located pulling on the cables to activate.

galwaytt · 08-09-2020 10:41am

wonski wrote: »

In car industry this means recall campaign. Expensive and brand damaging.

Anecdotally, among the petrolati, maybe. But not really.

Worth a read on the impact of same, here: https://www.autonews.com/Assets/pdf/NADA%20UCG_WhitePaper_Impact%20of%20Vehicle%20Recalls.pdf

Take a 5 year window:

General Motors
Recalls: 213
Vehicles affected: 54,942,962

Ford
Recalls: 209
Vehicles affected: 24,892,471

Chrysler
Recalls: 208
Vehicles affected: 40,726,068

Mercedes-Benz
Recalls: 117
Vehicles affected: 3,150,014

Volkswagen
Recalls: 109
Vehicles affected: 6,510,514

And these manufacturers had the lowest number of recalls among top U.S. carmakers from 2014 through 2018:

Tesla
Recalls: 8
Vehicles affected: 210,727

Volvo LLC
Recalls: 14
Vehicles affected: 190,444

Suzuki Motor of America
Recalls: 24
Vehicles affected: 482,866

Porsche Cars North America
Recalls: 27
Vehicles affected: 257,732

Tie: Subaru of America Inc.
Recalls: 35
Vehicles affected: 3,465,501

Tie: Land Rover
Recalls: 35
Vehicles potentially affected: 477,080

Look at Porsche 257k vehicles a year and 27 recalls. That's 0.01% basically
Look at GM, 54m vehicles and 213 recalls. That's a miniscule 0.000003%

Which one (anecdotally at least) do you think has the better brand reputation ?

Perception is one thing, stats otoh, another.

mikeecho · 21-09-2020 8:17pm

Recall Alert: Almost 600,000 Hyundai and Kia Models Are a Fire Hazard

Due to a potential brake-fluid leak, Hyundai and Kia have recalled almost 600,000 vehicles for a dangerous fire hazard.

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/recall-alert-almost-600000-hyundai-and-kia-models-are-a-fire-hazard/

3d4life · 21-09-2020 8:37pm

Another day, another recall ...

Product recall list for this year

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/product-safety/product-recalls/

Recall list for previous years

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/product-safety/product-recalls/product-recalls-archive/

California Dreamer · 22-09-2020 7:25am

RandomViewer wrote: »

Ford must have dirtier the bib badly with the Guards

Welcome to 2014! :eek::eek:

colm_mcm · 22-09-2020 7:55am

3d4life wrote: »

Another day, another recall ...

Product recall list for this year

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/product-safety/product-recalls/

Recall list for previous years

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/product-safety/product-recalls/product-recalls-archive/

My favourite from your link, microbial risk from fluid-filled President Trump head.

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/product_recalls/recall-notice-relating-to-out-of-the-blue-soft-rubber-ball-with-liquid-interior-designed-as-the-head-of-president-trump/

galwaytt · 22-09-2020 7:39pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Just checked in the wife's car manual and I'm a bit shocked to find out that the two circuits only operate one front wheel and one rear wheel each! so only one hose and piston at each wheel.

First car I ever worked on the brakes on was my dad's, later my mam's 1981 Austin Metro. Not known for advanced safety features or advanced much really, but it had 4-piston front calipers with 2 hoses going to each front wheel. So whichever circuit went, you still had both front brakes. No brake servo though...

You can't drag air into the good circuit unless you're pumping the pedal, fluid (or air) enters the system on the return stroke. If you press the brake and the pedal goes down more than it should you're supposed to just push right down and keep it there.

Don't think so.

Two hoses, yes, but only one feed from the master cylinder. The 2nd hose is only a link pipe from one 'side' of the caliper to the other to ensure pressure is equalised across the caliper iirc.

Dual circuit are always diagonal, as is wiring for lights - so you cant lose a complete front or rear, but only one if each (at a time).

Hotblack Desiato · 23-09-2020 1:02am

Nope that one was a fully duplicated system on both front wheels, I know because one of the circuits went...

bobbyy gee · 23-09-2020 2:08am

Hyundai have not got the best brakes

zg3409 · 23-09-2020 8:22am

galwaytt wrote: »

Don't think so.
Dual circuit are always diagonal, as is wiring for lights - so you cant lose a complete front or rear, but only one if each (at a time).

Wiring for lights is often left side front and rear and right side front and rear, not diagonal. So one fuse for parking and tail lights on one side. Nowadays often lights have computers at the lights (CAN control) so the fusing may be different to save on wiring costs. Its crazy in 2020 bulb failure detection is not mandatory on all cars, in Switzerland/Germany you must carry one spare for each bulb.

In terms of brake failure I would hope manufacturer would try put in place a system to ensure no bits are left over or lose when a car is put together. They should identify specific step in manufacturing this happened and reduce risk.

In terms of food industry they should identify where bolt came from, and put in place a system to stop it happening such as correct torque, nylock nut etc.

202 Hyundai Kona brake failure

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