POC to sign for Toulon

George Hook · 01-06-2015 2:20pm

partyguinness wrote: »

While it is complete bollocks, why in Gods name would Muster/IRFU try that restriction on?

The whole rationale for a ROT clause is to protect the former employer's business. How in God's name is POC playing against Munster adversely affecting Munster's business. It doesnt.

POC against Munster at Thomand Park would see the gate/TV receipts sky rocket. Happy days for the bean counters at Thomand Park.

Don't they get prize money for winning or coming runner up in tournaments? If Paul played a blinder and scored the winning try all on his own, then yes he would be adversely affecting Munster, especially if it was a cup final/semi.

In fact the guy knows all the line-out calls and everything, old Munster set moves, plays etc. and almost everything about the players too. Not saying those calls don't change year on year - they might not - and that teams don't analyze each other but he's leaving with a huge amount of knowledge - invaluable to an opposition team.

Podge_irl · 01-06-2015 2:22pm

George Hook wrote: »

In fact the guy knows all the line-out calls and everything, old Munster set moves, plays etc. and almost everything about the players too. Not saying those calls don't change year on year - they might not - and that teams don't analyze each other but he's leaving with a huge amount of knowledge - invaluable to an opposition team.

Thus describing every player who has ever moved club.

It's a nonsense idea.

George Hook · 01-06-2015 2:27pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Thus describing every player who has ever moved club.

It's a nonsense idea.

Not every player is as smart as Paulie and came up with the moves themselves. He is a massive player for Munster not just for what he does on the pitch but for all the strategy before the match.

We're not talking about some run of the mill prop whose only job it is is to go to ground with the ball or some wing who sits out there all day and waits for the ball to come to them. This is brain of the team, through everything it does. He will know all the plays etc.

total former · 01-06-2015 2:29pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Thus describing every player who has ever moved club.

It's a nonsense idea.

In fairness, not every player gets to walk away from their contract a year early.

Such a clause would be legally binding as it wouldn't impinge on POC's ability to earn a living.

But it's nonsense anyway. POC playing against Munster would be pure box office. They'd be insane to insist on it, and I can't imagine POC would be happy about it.

jm08 · 01-06-2015 2:39pm

partyguinness wrote: »

While it is complete bollocks, why in Gods name would Muster/IRFU try that restriction on?

The whole rationale for a ROT clause is to protect the former employer's business. How in God's name is POC playing against Munster adversely affecting Munster's business. It doesnt.

POC against Munster at Thomand Park would see the gate/TV receipts sky rocket. Happy days for the bean counters at Thomand Park.

POC would be way too familiar with Munster's intellectual property, their lineout calls for example. (which could adversely affect Munster's business). Effectively, POC would have been training with Toulon's opposition for the last 15 years. Wayne Smith had a restriction on his AB contract for at least a year (while Graham Henry didn't).

I'd imagine POC himself might find some difficulty in playing against Munster. Wayne Smith said that he could never coach a team that could pose a threat to the ABs.

Wayne Smith: Turning down a job with England
“One thing that made a wee bit of difference for me was that Roy Keane had come over in 2008 to spend a week with the All Blacks as part of his coaching course. He told the story of when he went to Celtic, and they were paying him a lot more than Sir Alex [Ferguson] was prepared to pay him, so effectively he went for money. And he went up there but he said as soon as he pulled the shirt over his head he knew that it wasn't a United shirt. And he said, 'Be very clear – if you're going overseas, be very clear that it won't be the All Blacks jersey and you've got to be really certain that you want to go for the money'.”

aimee1 · 01-06-2015 2:45pm

George Hook wrote: »

Don't they get prize money for winning or coming runner up in tournaments? If Paul played a blinder and scored the winning try all on his own, then yes he would be adversely affecting Munster, especially if it was a cup final/semi.

In fact the guy knows all the line-out calls and everything, old Munster set moves, plays etc. and almost everything about the players too. Not saying those calls don't change year on year - they might not - and that teams don't analyze each other but he's leaving with a huge amount of knowledge - invaluable to an opposition team.

line out calls can change, and a lot of calls are communicated by the prop whispering in the ear of the hooker. A line out call is not the intellectual property of any team either. If he wants to go and the IRFU are willing then they should demand a payout from Mourad and dont go looking for stupid clauses.

If they have some crazy concern about him playing against munster then they should refuse to release him.

partyguinness · 01-06-2015 2:50pm

jm08 wrote: »

POC would be way too familiar with Munster's intellectual property, their lineout calls for example. (which could adversely affect Munster's business). Effectively, POC would have been training with Toulon's opposition for the last 15 years. Wayne Smith had a restriction on his AB contract for at least a year (while Graham Henry didn't).

I hear what you are saying but think about it- would it make any difference whether he was on the pitch or not in terms of giving some insight to Munster's calls? He may as well sit with the technical staff on the sidelines providing guidance.

Plus with him gone, Munster will now start from scratch.

TBH, if I was Munster I would be happy just to be playing Toulon next year never mind what insights POC might have...;)

Podge_irl · 01-06-2015 2:52pm

jm08 wrote: »

I'd imagine POC himself might find some difficulty in playing against Munster.

Then he should honour his contract and stay at Munster.

George Hook · 01-06-2015 2:54pm

aimee1 wrote: »

line out calls can change, and a lot of calls are communicated by the prop whispering in the ear of the hooker. A line out call is not the intellectual property of any team either. If he wants to go and the IRFU are willing then they should demand a payout from Mourad and dont go looking for stupid clauses.

If they have some crazy concern about him playing against munster then they should refuse to release him.

Just to point out, I'm actually not backing the clause - I was just trying to give insight into that side of the argument.

Line out calls can change yeah, but they'll have certain patterns based on the strengths and weaknesses of the individuals in the team. I'd imagine club standard lineouts work off some sort of formula for each club and may not change much if at all year on year. Obviously the Munster lineout will have to now undertake an overhaul.

awec · 01-06-2015 2:57pm

This clause is the biggest load of nonsense ever. It won't happen.

POC is a professional player. "Difficult to play against Munster" is a load of crap. He's paid to play rugby, if Toulon are drawn to play Munster then Toulon are absolutely right to expect him to play and give 100% as he usually does. In fact, I'm pretty sure the notion of being left out a game for such a reason would go against what the man stands for anyway.

The whole thing stinks of a really bad case of chinese whispers. Someone has said that they wouldn't want him to play against Munster and all of a sudden there is a discussion about the most ridiculous contract clause prohibiting him from doing so.

thomond2006 · 01-06-2015 3:16pm

If POC didn't want to play against Munster and asked Toulon to be excluded, Mourad would tell him where to go. If the owner of a club is as outspoken against losing players to international duty during the season, do you reckon he would allow a player to dictate terms like that?

There is no way this clause, if it exists at all, is coming from POC's side. Mourad would yank the contract offer in a heartbeat. Mourad doesn't give a **** about Munster and I highly doubt he would handicap his club in a possible European knockout match.

Grandpa Hassan · 01-06-2015 3:17pm

Stheno wrote: »

Neil Francis was most unhappy about this move in the sindo yesterday

He's always unhappy. What was he particularly unhappy about this time?

Stheno · 01-06-2015 3:23pm

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

He's always unhappy. What was he particularly unhappy about this time?

That toulons checkbook is so big

Wang King · 01-06-2015 3:37pm

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

He's always unhappy. What was he particularly unhappy about this time?

The bar he was drinking in was having a happy hour

Kirk Van Houten · 01-06-2015 5:52pm

Stheno wrote:

That mourads checkbook is so big

Francis didnt seem to have a problem heading to Australia in his playing days to take the money.

total former · 01-06-2015 6:12pm

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

He's always unhappy. What was he particularly unhappy about this time?

In fairness to Francis, his point is "fair play to O-Connell but it galls me that Toulon can buy whoever they want."

Which is exactly what a lot of posters here think...

its_phil · 01-06-2015 6:37pm

total former wrote: »

In fairness to Francis, his point is "fair play to O-Connell but it galls me that Toulon can buy whoever they want."

Which is exactly what a lot of posters here think...

Not much fair play in saying "a question of character may be needed to shake hands with Boudjellal". He also claims Boudjellal "may not be fully aware of exactly what he has got or how this player's character was forged." Such nonsense, Boudjellal is more than aware the value in buying a player of POC's calibre and Toulon have proven they know how to manage aged but brilliant players better than anyone has ever done in the professional history of the game. That track record gives them an advantage in recruiting players over Clermont and Toulouse who have just as capable budgets to compete for POC's signature. Is there really anywhere better for POC to play his rugby outside of Munster?

Francis dislikes Toulon, he said as much in his article before the Champions Cup final. He's a subjective writer who's comment is given too much light of day.

Buer · 01-06-2015 7:13pm

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Francis didnt seem to have a problem heading to Australia in his playing days to take the money.

Francis went to Manly when the game was amateur, in fairness. He was getting a bit of drinking money and set up in digs.

irishbucsfan · 01-06-2015 7:20pm

Buer wrote: »

Francis went to Manly when the game was amateur, in fairness. He was getting a bit of drinking money and set up in digs.

Which is basically what POC is getting, it's just substantially more drinking money.

01-06-2015 7:43pm

This may not go down well, but I'm not sure POC on a megabucks salary at his age is great business. He's had a fantastic season overall but I just don't think his body has two more years of top class rugby left in it.

But all the best to him, he's earned the right to head off. I agree with Francis overall, it is galling to see Toulon purchasing success year on year.

total former · 01-06-2015 7:54pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Which is basically what POC is getting, it's just substantially more drinking money.

The price of beer in France, jaysis he'd want to be.

So the conclusion is, little to choose between them on the pitch. That's fair.

dtpc191991 · 01-06-2015 8:16pm

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Francis didnt seem to have a problem heading to Australia in his playing days to take the money.

I'm really starting to see Francis as our Stephen Jones. He's an awful Journalist.

jm08 · 01-06-2015 8:56pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Then he should honour his contract and stay at Munster.

I think it would be fair to not want to play against a team you have played with all your life. With the player roster Toulon has, it shouldn't be a problem either.

thomond2006 · 01-06-2015 9:01pm

jm08 wrote: »

I think it would be fair to not want to play against a team you have played with all your life. With the player roster Toulon has, it shouldn't be a problem either.

He works for Toulon now. Ask Mourad if that's a problem when he's signing the cheques. You reckon he's going to pay a guy 600k per annum and allow him to miss matches because the player doesn't feel like playing against his OLD team. :pac:

It makes no sense for Munster either to demand any such clause as part of the contract break. Can you imagine Munster vs Toulon with POC? You could sell out Gaelic Grounds, nevermind Thomond!

I regret bringing this up in the first place as I thought it was bull**** and I think it still is.

awec · 01-06-2015 9:01pm

jm08 wrote: »

I think it would be fair to not want to play against a team you have played with all your life. With the player roster Toulon has, it shouldn't be a problem either.

It would be a complete nonsense and very unprofessional.

This discussion is mythical. It won't happen. POC is a pro player, if he plays for Toulon there'll be no clauses specifying certain games he can't play in because he'd be too upset to do so. Give me a break.

thomond2006 · 01-06-2015 9:07pm

awec wrote: »

It would be a complete nonsense and very unprofessional.

This discussion is mythical. It won't happen. POC is a pro player, if he plays for Toulon there'll be no clauses specifying certain games he can't play in because he'd be too upset to do so. Give me a break.

To add to this, I'd love how this would go down in the dressing room the week before a Munster vs Toulon CC final.

"Uh I don't really want to play against my OLD team"

He would be laughed out of the room. That's why it's absurd.

Tbh if we talk about legacy of a player, there's not many things that match getting one over on your old team!

Grandpa Hassan · 01-06-2015 9:14pm

jm08 wrote: »

I think it would be fair to not want to play against a team you have played with all your life. With the player roster Toulon has, it shouldn't be a problem either.

Players play against their old teams all the time. And normally put in great performances. Didn't Frank Lampard score for Manchester City against Chelsea? It's an absolute nonsense to think they wouldn't want to do it

Swiwi. · 01-06-2015 10:06pm

total former wrote: »

In fairness to Francis, his point is "fair play to O-Connell but it galls me that Toulon can buy whoever they want."

Which is exactly what a lot of posters here think...

We're not suggesting POC was forced to sign this contract are we...?

Toulon can afford to offer lots of money, but no-one is obliged to sign on the dotted line...

ronanc1000 · 01-06-2015 10:14pm

Any thoughts on the post match interviews via sky & tg4 with Paul? He avoided the Toulon questions. Made me wonder is he just retiring altogether. I know Munster had lost but I feel Paul needs to front up and just speak about his next move. He did say he'd make a decision about his career pre WC, now he needs to confirm he future. Toulon or Retirement. As I said he need to say he's off to Toulon sooner rather than later.

awec · 01-06-2015 10:15pm

He might not be able to say anything if it's not confirmed yet.

Or maybe Toulon would prefer to announce the signing in a big marketing blitz and have asked him to say nothing yet.

jm08 · 01-06-2015 10:32pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

He works for Toulon now. Ask Mourad if that's a problem when he's signing the cheques. You reckon he's going to pay a guy 600k per annum and allow him to miss matches because the player doesn't feel like playing against his OLD team. :pac:

It makes no sense for Munster either to demand any such clause as part of the contract break. Can you imagine Munster vs Toulon with POC? You could sell out Gaelic Grounds, nevermind Thomond!

I regret bringing this up in the first place as I thought it was bull**** and I think it still is.

Well, he could always negotiate a reduction if he wasn't asked to play against his old team. He isn't going to a club that will actually need him to play in every game (which might be the case if he went to a club in say England).

At the moment, Toulon would be looking to the IRFU/Munster to release POC from his current contract so Toulon could be required to buy his contract out.

Munster will sell out Thomond Park anyway against Toulon.

01-06-2015 10:33pm

I heard that Toulon are changing their strip to orange for the next two seasons because O'Connell doesn't want to play in red if it isn't for Munster. Fair play to them for accommodating that on top of them letting him skip any games against Munster.

jm08 · 01-06-2015 10:35pm

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Players play against their old teams all the time. And normally put in great performances. Didn't Frank Lampard score for Manchester City against Chelsea? It's an absolute nonsense to think they wouldn't want to do it

Then, maybe its an Irish thing. Roy Keane said exactly the opposite about playing for Celtic (even though he was a life long fan of Celtic).

awec · 01-06-2015 10:38pm

jm08 wrote: »

Then, maybe its an Irish thing. Roy Keane said exactly the opposite about playing for Celtic (even though he was a life long fan of Celtic).

No it isn't.

jm08 · 01-06-2015 10:41pm

ronanc1000 wrote: »

Any thoughts on the post match interviews via sky & tg4 with Paul? He avoided the Toulon questions. Made me wonder is he just retiring altogether. I know Munster had lost but I feel Paul needs to front up and just speak about his next move. He did say he'd make a decision about his career pre WC, now he needs to confirm he future. Toulon or Retirement. As I said he need to say he's off to Toulon sooner rather than later.

The offer from Toulon is still subject to a medical which he has to undertake.

Some hints though from Foley that he is retiring after the world cup and rumour on Munsterfans is that he is going to France to coach.

aimee1 · 01-06-2015 10:43pm

jm08 wrote: »

Well, he could always negotiate a reduction if he wasn't asked to play against his old team. He isn't going to a club that will actually need him to play in every game (which might be the case if he went to a club in say England).

At the moment, Toulon would be looking to the IRFU/Munster to release POC from his current contract so Toulon could be required to buy his contract out.

Munster will sell out Thomond Park anyway against Toulon.

Deluded nonsense. If he goes to toulon he will well paid to play rugby against whoever they have to play.

jm08 · 01-06-2015 10:46pm

awec wrote: »

No it isn't.

Maybe you could suggest why it isn't? The GAA ethos of only being able to play for your home club/county would be very strong in Ireland, apart from the Provinces being a bit more than just clubs as well.

jm08 · 01-06-2015 10:49pm

aimee1 wrote: »

Deluded nonsense. If he goes to toulon he will well paid to play rugby against whoever they have to play.

POC is an iconic player (who has a job anyway with the IRFU/Munster). Toulon are trying to get him, he isn't trying to get Toulon.

awec · 01-06-2015 10:57pm

jm08 wrote: »

Maybe you could suggest why it isn't? The GAA ethos of only being able to play for your home club/county would be very strong in Ireland, apart from the Provinces being a bit more than just clubs as well.

The GAA is amateur. Also players don't really get to pick who they play for.

Has there ever been an Irish professional sports person who has had a clause put into their contact which stipulates playing against club xyz would be too upsetting for them and they should be excluded from the squad for those games?

aimee1 · 01-06-2015 11:12pm

jm08 wrote: »

POC is an iconic player (who has a job anyway with the IRFU/Munster). Toulon are trying to get him, he isn't trying to get Toulon.

Your point being?

jm08 · 01-06-2015 11:17pm

awec wrote: »

The GAA is amateur. Also players don't really get to pick who they play for.

Has there ever been an Irish professional sports person who has had a clause put into their contact which stipulates playing against club xyz would be too upsetting for them and they should be excluded from the squad for those games?

I said the GAA ethos of having one club, one county.

Its not unusual in English football that players out on loan don't play against who ever holds their contract and at the moment IRFU/Munster hold POC's contract for next season so they are in the driving seat.

The IRFU/Munster are doing POC a favour to release him. It will leave Munster short a lock at short notice.

total former · 01-06-2015 11:20pm

jm08 wrote: »

The IRFU/Munster are doing POC a favour to release him. It will leave Munster short a lock at short notice.

Munster aren't doing him a favour, they have no say in it.

jm08 · 01-06-2015 11:20pm

aimee1 wrote: »

Your point being?

POC can write his own terms.

Toulon hasn't a problem employing large number of players who are missing for a lot of the season due to playing international rugby. They complain, but they still keep employing them.

jm08 · 01-06-2015 11:22pm

total former wrote: »

Munster aren't doing him a favour, they have no say in it.

So the IRFU are going to release POC from his contract with no consultation with Munster?

awec · 01-06-2015 11:24pm

jm08 wrote: »

I said the GAA ethos of having one club, one county.

Its not unusual in English football that players out on loan don't play against who ever holds their contract and at the moment IRFU/Munster hold POC's contract for next season so they are in the driving seat.

The IRFU/Munster are doing POC a favour to release him. It will leave Munster short a lock at short notice.

Loan players are not allowed to play against their parent club in English football. There is a rule against it to stop conflicts of interest arising.

POC is not going on loan and no such rule exists in rugby. There is also no conflict of interest.

aimee1 · 01-06-2015 11:24pm

jm08 wrote: »

POC can write his own terms.

Toulon hasn't a problem employing large number of players who are missing for a lot of the season due to playing international rugby. They complain, but they still keep employing them.

Lol laughable nonsense. Here is 1.2mil now which games can you not play because you are a big cry baby. If POC does go and does insist on this then he ruins his legacy in irish rugby.

Toulon have to release players as part of the international window, they have no choice.

total former · 01-06-2015 11:25pm

jm08 wrote: »

So the IRFU are going to release POC from his contract with no consultation with Munster?

Does telling them what's about to happen count as consultation? If so, then yes, consultation aplenty.

If you're asking if Munster have any power to affect the outcome, then no, they have none.

jm08 · 01-06-2015 11:28pm

aimee1 wrote: »

Lol laughable nonsense. Here is 1.2mil now which games can you not play because you are a big cry baby. If POC does go and does insist on this then he ruins his legacy in irish rugby.

Toulon have to release players as part of the international window, they have no choice.

So you would class Wayne Smith as a big cry baby because he wont coach a team that might challenge the ABs?

I just don't get how POC could ruin his legacy in Irish rugby by saying he doesn't want to play against his old team.

jm08 · 01-06-2015 11:31pm

total former wrote: »

Does telling them what's about to happen count as consultation? If so, then yes, consultation aplenty.

If you're asking if Munster have any power to affect the outcome, then no, they have none.

I would have thought POC would have had the manners to run it by the Munster management before approaching the IRFU in the first place.

aimee1 · 01-06-2015 11:32pm

jm08 wrote: »

So you would class Wayne Smith as a big cry baby because he wont coach a team that might challenge the ABs?

I just don't get how POC could ruin his legacy in Irish rugby by saying he doesn't want to play against his old team.

Because if he goes then he takes what comes with being a professional rugby player for the money he would get paid. If he cant hack the reality of pro sport he shouldnt go.

Will JS resign if ireland play NZ in the world cup QF/final because he doesnt want to beat his homeland?

POC to sign for Toulon

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