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Manchester United Teamtalk/Transfer Rumours/Gossip 2019/20 (Mod Notes Post #1)
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We still have Top 4 and 2 Cups to play for. No reason why we cant be good enough to win Europa league with form we are in and hopefully a Midfield that seems bit more settled now.0
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Are Leicester our target now?
I wouldn't be confident of this idea that City will be banned from CL so 5th is fine attitude tbh0 -
The_Kew_Tour wrote: »We still have Top 4 and 2 Cups to play for. No reason why we cant be good enough to win Europa league with form we are in and hopefully a Midfield that seems bit more settled now.
Yep. Looking forward to the next 6 weeks or so. CL qualification and a trophy would be an acceptable return and a good platform to build on. Recruitment will be absolutely key, as I said previously, I'm not expecting a title challenge next season (whenever that may be) but for the level of investment consistent CL qualification should be the minimum expectation.0 -
Statutory Ape wrote: »Yep. Looking forward to the next 6 weeks or so. CL qualification and a trophy would be an acceptable return and a good platform to build on. Recruitment will be absolutely key, as I said previously, I'm not expecting a title challenge next season (whenever that may be) but for the level of investment consistent CL qualification should be the minimum expectation.
Yep, if we fail qualify for CL next season and fall short again for season after than Ole will just not be good enough.
I hope he delivers like we all do cause we have gotten the chances. No excuses in that regard. Not like Chrksea or Leicester gave been setting the world alight. Ole has been and will be given more time but its time deliver now. We have been given plenty chances in both PL and EL has been open to us so the excuses are over.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Are Leicester our target now?
I wouldn't be confident of this idea that City will be banned from CL so 5th is fine attitude tbh
Both should be our target I guess.
I be totally with you on your 2nd point. We could be left with egg on our face if that is over turned
No CL football next season is failed season0 -
A £200m spend this season with possibly £100m or more next transfer window, top 4 must be the minimum expectation.0
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Winning the 2 cups would be great. What is it, basically 4 games required to win the EL? By then they should really be flying unless there's key injuries. Some good teams in there and I'd fear Inter with Eriksen but surely United should be looking at that as a real possibility. Though if CL is achieved through the league their motivation may be lacking I suppose.0
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The_Kew_Tour wrote: »We have had plenty of time to sort things out since Moyes left.
We came 2nd in league few seasons back.
It’s just been errors all over that has cost us, not 1 season that was 7 years ago now.
Anyway the team is starting take shape, but still a season or 2 sadly before we might see it come to light if at all.
It’s worth remembering, the morning that’s in it, that we finished ahead of Liverpool two years ago.
I’d fully agree, the damage that we suffered under Moyes (and LVG) is too overstated nowadays. It sucked at the time, but we are still making mistakes and still focusing on Moyes.
2 years ago, we finished above Liverpool, and while City were miles ahead of us that season, they were further ahead of Liverpool.
Top four isn’t good enough next season imo. Next season HAS to be a title challenge, given the level of investment we have put into the squad since then.
Fred, AWB, Maguire, Bruno, James, along with hopefully Sancho and another this summer. The fact we are still struggling for top four isn’t good enough. That’s before the fact Rashford, Martial, Pogba and Greenwood should be improving.
I hope it’s Ole pushing us there. But whatever or whoever it is, another battle for top four simply isn’t good enough next year.0 -
It’s worth remembering, the morning that’s in it, that we finished ahead of Liverpool two years ago.
I’d fully agree, the damage that we suffered under Moyes (and LVG) is too overstated nowadays. It sucked at the time, but we are still making mistakes and still focusing on Moyes.
2 years ago, we finished above Liverpool, and while City were miles ahead of us that season, they were further ahead of Liverpool.
Top four isn’t good enough next season imo. Next season HAS to be a title challenge, given the level of investment we have put into the squad since then.
Fred, AWB, Maguire, Bruno, James, along with hopefully Sancho and another this summer. The fact we are still struggling for top four isn’t good enough. That’s before the fact Rashford, Martial, Pogba and Greenwood should be improving.
I hope it’s Ole pushing us there. But whatever or whoever it is, another battle for top four simply isn’t good enough next year.
Agree totally. With the depth of talent in the Squad a title challenge is the minimum expectation next season. If not I would be looking for a new manager.0 -
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Agree totally. With the depth of talent in the Squad a title challenge is the minimum expectation next season. If not I would be looking for a new manager.
With the squad as it is it wont happen imo. We need to recruit and recruit well in the summer and mount a challenge next season.
Ive been a huge critic of Ole but the recruitment so far has been very good, as in the players signed.
A huge "summer" ahead. Im more hoping than expecting the club to sign the players.0 -
It’s worth remembering, the morning that’s in it, that we finished ahead of Liverpool two years ago.
I’d fully agree, the damage that we suffered under Moyes (and LVG) is too overstated nowadays. It sucked at the time, but we are still making mistakes and still focusing on Moyes.
2 years ago, we finished above Liverpool, and while City were miles ahead of us that season, they were further ahead of Liverpool.
Top four isn’t good enough next season imo. Next season HAS to be a title challenge, given the level of investment we have put into the squad since then.
Fred, AWB, Maguire, Bruno, James, along with hopefully Sancho and another this summer. The fact we are still struggling for top four isn’t good enough. That’s before the fact Rashford, Martial, Pogba and Greenwood should be improving.
I hope it’s Ole pushing us there. But whatever or whoever it is, another battle for top four simply isn’t good enough next year.
That’s extremely wishful thinking. Liverpool were still playing in champions league finals when they finished 4th.
Jose said it himself, that was his greatest achievement getting us second and it wasn’t because it was a solid team. He made a very average looking squad look half competent. I certainly wouldn’t expect anything remotely resembling a challange next season, regardless of manager, especially if we do somehow get into the CL. We don’t have the squad or proven pedigree to expect it.
Spending money doesn’t really tell us anything as we have spent so bad and there are big questions marks over important players who have not yet reached full potential. Still waiting for Martial to find consistent form. Rashford, Williams and McTominey Look like really good players But it’s not reasonable to expect them to drive us to a title challange when there is so much deadwood stuck in the squad. Who leaves is nearly as important , if not more, then who stays.
Ole cant make Woodward a better Ceo, we still have the same muppet show behind the scenes. Liverpool didn’t get to this stage by hiring Klopp, a lot more things fell into place , including competent owners who worked with the coach to build a potential legacy. As such I don’t think we are comparable with them. Jose helped compensate for a mismanaged club, it’s unfair to expect Ole or any other manager to be able to bridge that gap.
We can fool ourselves and point to one or two good transfer windows but I’m not that optimistic that much has changed. I think moreso now with COVID the owners will reel in spending. United have been languishing as a Nothing club for 7 seasons and they haven’t lost any sleep or much value out of the club. I’m not as confident they care or feel the need to get the club challanging anytime soon.0 -
This probably won't go down well but "it could be worse"
Look at the likes of previous winners or contenders such as Aston Villa, Newcastle United, Leeds United, Blackburn Rovers etc. They sunk into relegation and are struggling to get back to the top. We've never left the top 10.
It's been pretty much the same story over at Arsenal.
It'll come back around eventually.
Have faith and stop begrudging others their success. I reckon any Aston Villa fan would love to be in our position.0 -
Jose said it himself, that was his greatest achievement getting us second and it wasn’t because it was a solid team. He made a very average looking squad look half competent. I certainly wouldn’t expect anything remotely resembling a challange next season, regardless of manager, especially if we do somehow get into the CL. We don’t have the squad or proven pedigree to expect it.
(At the risk of opening a can of worms...)
Jose took that team without "proven pedigree", and got us second.
Ole has taken that team with an added £250m worth of players, shifted out deadweight, and has us on track for one of our worst points totals ever.
I get Jose is devisivie, but that season being his "greatest achievement" is an excellent example of how a great manager can elevate a team with issues to a higher league finish than expected.
Whatever way you spin it, the team did manage to finish second. If we want to make excuses for the squad Ole inherited, then by proxy you have to acknowledge the difference a manager can make with the tools provided.
And I'll stress this....I like Ole. I want him to succeed.
But if Ole gets to invest £350m+ into a team that showed they could finish second, and STILL struggles to maintain a top four spot, "liking" Ole isn't enough anymore.I think the football since Xmas has been great, and we're going in the right direction. But the pace needs to accelerate to match the ambitions of the club.0 -
I said it at the time, but Lukaku was such a bad fit for United. José needs a player who can play with his back to goal and hold the ball up. Paying that money for him after paying that money for Pogba was ridiculous. I doubt there were 2 other players in world football who would have cost that much and achieved so little relative to their cost.0
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For where Utd are now Ole is the right man for the job. Club needs to be overhauled on the playing side from youths up and he's doing a fine job of overseeing it at the moment. Good quality players coming through the youths and the signings have been a lot better too. We won't be challenging any time soon but we're in the right direction0
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I don't have the apathy towards the team that I did under José and LVG towards the end of their tenures. I like Ole and am enjoying watching this group even if they come apart at times and I still harbour major doubts about a couple of the players. Definitely on the right track imo. Certain results this season have been very disappointing obviously but I think they are things that can be worked on.
With a bit more quality up front this team is already good enough to improve hugely. I think a lot of the issues have been inability to break teams down when on top and the nerves building up. You can see the potential there at times that wasn't really there under the other managers (I may be falling foul to recency bias) for a fluid attack and that has only improved with Bruno coming and now Pogba gracing us with his presence.0 -
(At the risk of opening a can of worms...)
Jose took that team without "proven pedigree", and got us second.
Ole has taken that team with an added £250m worth of players, shifted out deadweight, and has us on track for one of our worst points totals ever.
I get Jose is devisivie, but that season being his "greatest achievement" is an excellent example of how a great manager can elevate a team with issues to a higher league finish than expected.
Whatever way you spin it, the team did manage to finish second. If we want to make excuses for the squad Ole inherited, then by proxy you have to acknowledge the difference a manager can make with the tools provided.
And I'll stress this....I like Ole. I want him to succeed.
But if Ole gets to invest £350m+ into a team that showed they could finish second, and STILL struggles to maintain a top four spot, "liking" Ole isn't enough anymore.I think the football since Xmas has been great, and we're going in the right direction. But the pace needs to accelerate to match the ambitions of the club.
Your presumption is that when 200+million is spent , that whether it’s spent wisely or not is somehow the responsibility of the manager. Fans have to get away from this thinking. Klopp hasn’t been deciding who Liverpool should sign, he’s involved but he’s not completely responsible for who joins the club. What’s the clubs “vision”? Do we actually have one? Going from moyes to LVG to Jose to ole, what’s the plan?
More then a good manager, we need better structures and better people below the manager (and above him). Chelsea again are a perfect example of a club that doesn’t really need a good manager to retain top 4. It’s no coincidence that city, Liverpool and Chelsea have dominated top 4 since SAF retired and the common denominator is not managers , it’s well run clubs with good transfer policies and clubs structures pointing and working in one direction. Even Leicester have a better club structure that has less to do with managers, more to do with using their resources well.0 -
Slightly off topic but I always get annoyed when I see the annual released list. Granted I know we are big enough that it doesn't matter but a few million each could have been raised by Mitchell and O'Hara being sold rather than just released......always annoys me to see wasted money.0
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Your presumption is that when 200+million is spent , that whether it’s spent wisely or not is somehow the responsibility of the manager. Fans have to get away from this thinking. Klopp hasn’t been deciding who Liverpool should sign, he’s involved but he’s not completely responsible for who joins the club. What’s the clubs “vision”? Do we actually have one? Going from moyes to LVG to Jose to ole, what’s the plan?
More then a good manager, we need better structures and better people below the manager (and above him). Chelsea again are a perfect example of a club that doesn’t really need a good manager to retain top 4. It’s no coincidence that city, Liverpool and Chelsea have dominated top 4 since SAF retired and the common denominator is not managers , it’s well run clubs with good transfer policies and clubs structures pointing and working in one direction. Even Leicester have a better club structure that has less to do with managers, more to do with using their resources well.
But surely the structures you talk about have improved greatly post Jose and LVG. Utd are obviously better at scouting players than they were. All have made a positive impact on the squad and playing front
The youth setup seems to be going through an overhaul also, some really good players have been identified and brought in. It'll be another year or so but then hopefully we'll start seeing these players coming into the firsr team squad
I'm fairly optimistic about the way the club is going at the moment. Whether Ole will be there towards the end im not sure about but by the time he's finished I'm hoping the overhyped overpaid players we have to subsidise to play somewhere else will be a thing of the past0 -
Your presumption is that when 200+million is spent , that whether it’s spent wisely or not is somehow the responsibility of the manager. Fans have to get away from this thinking. Klopp hasn’t been deciding who Liverpool should sign, he’s involved but he’s not completely responsible for who joins the club. What’s the clubs “vision”? Do we actually have one? Going from moyes to LVG to Jose to ole, what’s the plan?
More then a good manager, we need better structures and better people below the manager (and above him). Chelsea again are a perfect example of a club that doesn’t really need a good manager to retain top 4. It’s no coincidence that city, Liverpool and Chelsea have dominated top 4 since SAF retired and the common denominator is not managers , it’s well run clubs with good transfer policies and clubs structures pointing and working in one direction. Even Leicester have a better club structure that has less to do with managers, more to do with using their resources well.
But surely the structures you talk about have improved greatly post Jose and LVG. Utd are obviously better at scouting players than they were. All have made a positive impact on the squad and playing front
The youth setup seems to be going through an overhaul also, some really good players have been identified and brought in. It'll be another year or so but then hopefully we'll start seeing these players coming into the firsr team squad
I'm fairly optimistic about the way the club is going at the moment. Whether Ole will be there towards the end im not sure about but by the time he's finished I'm hoping the overhyped overpaid players we have to subsidise to play somewhere else will be a thing of the past0 -
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fatherted1969 wrote: »For where Utd are now Ole is the right man for the job. Club needs to be overhauled on the playing side from youths up and he's doing a fine job of overseeing it at the moment. Good quality players coming through the youths and the signings have been a lot better too. We won't be challenging any time soon but we're in the right directionI don't have the apathy towards the team that I did under José and LVG towards the end of their tenures. I like Ole and am enjoying watching this group even if they come apart at times and I still harbour major doubts about a couple of the players. Definitely on the right track imo. Certain results this season have been very disappointing obviously but I think they are things that can be worked on.
With a bit more quality up front this team is already good enough to improve hugely. I think a lot of the issues have been inability to break teams down when on top and the nerves building up. You can see the potential there at times that wasn't really there under the other managers (I may be falling foul to recency bias) for a fluid attack and that has only improved with Bruno coming and now Pogba gracing us with his presence.
Yeh, I think ole is probably the right manager at the right time. Maybe he is helpful things change in the background. What he’s certainly getting right is that there is a more likable squad or bunch of characters. Football can be very entertaining at time’s and even though the table is bad reading it does actually feel like we may be getting close to going in the right direction.
I Don’t think “title challange” should be on our radar next season. If we get into CL it should be about getting out of the group and getting a top 4 spot proper. If things go really well next season then maybe we might be able to put a decent challange thereafter.
If we did nothing football wise but had an actual well run club we will be back up at the top in no time. Considering the financial advantage we have had over all but city , it’s actually criminal that we haven’t been at least top 4 every season. That’s not the fault of managers, it’s how the club is being run. Don’t care if this sounds like a broken record, I think blaming managers is a false flag operation.
If a club consistently does well and one manager makes it crap then the manager is the problem. If the club is consistently under performing then it’s not the manager. United were comparable with Madrid, Barca, Bayern and Juve when SAF retired. We are comparable with wolves , Valencia , Roma, Wolfsburg.
That’s not David moyes or LVGs or Jose or Ole’s fault. Maybe some manager Will come in and somehow make our broken club work but I wouldn’t be holding my breath. Maybe we need an Ole to come in and very slowly build us back up again! Maybe it will work because it really looks like it shouldn’t work to be honest. The sad thing is how much our financial advantage is being wasted. I’m as sick of hearing managers get the blame as others are at listening to me go on about Woodward/Glazers.0 -
Slightly off topic but I always get annoyed when I see the annual released list. Granted I know we are big enough that it doesn't matter but a few million each could have been raised by Mitchell and O'Hara being sold rather than just released......always annoys me to see wasted money.
Look at how Chelsea and City do it. They always manage to squeeze money out of players deemed surplus to requirements. Just because a player didn't make it at United doesn't make them a failure. Look at virtually every team in the league and you'll find a former United player there.0 -
fatherted1969 wrote: »But surely the structures you talk about have improved greatly post Jose and LVG. Utd are obviously better at scouting players than they were. All have made a positive impact on the squad and playing front
The youth setup seems to be going through an overhaul also, some really good players have been identified and brought in. It'll be another year or so but then hopefully we'll start seeing these players coming into the firsr team squad
I'm fairly optimistic about the way the club is going at the moment. Whether Ole will be there towards the end im not sure about but by the time he's finished I'm hoping the overhyped overpaid players we have to subsidise to play somewhere else will be a thing of the past
In spite of what I’m saying, I’m more optimistic now then when I was when they hired ole in what looked like a “I don’t know what I’m doing” decision from Woodward. We need to see consistent progress, not the two steps forward 5 steps back that’s been rife under woodwards stewardship.
I’m ok with a long term plan. I’m ok not getting CL or challenging for the league next season if the structures are being put in place for long term success. I’m just venting because I don’t trust Woodward has the competency or knowledge to pull it off as he’s done a horrible job to date. But we live in hope I suppose, nothing would make me happier then him proving me wrong.0 -
Ole isn't getting an additional 350m budget tacked onto a team that finished second though is he. A lot of players form Jose's time are gone, about 12 at least off the top of my head but some may have been before or after the 2nd place finish. Its not the same squad at all.
Ole has shifted out a lot of the old guard in a short space of time, there was always going to be an effect while we re-adjusted. I wouldn't agree with bangkok that its been brilliant, thats over optimistic but saying Ole took a second place squad and has them on course for the lowest this and that is totally disingenuous.
He took over from Joses FINAL season, that season Utd were 6th and playing very badly, after the new manager bounce wore off reality set it. Ole had to get rid of a lot of players that were clearly spent and a team playing woeful football.
Its sugar coating things for the previous manager and cherry picking the best to hold against the current manager. Saying he took a second place team to where we are now is a garbage spin on things. Jose took his 2nd place team to 6th and then Ole took over. You don't just get to ignore Joses final season, it was really poor and thats the point the next manager picked up the batton from.0 -
More then a good manager, we need better structures and better people below the manager (and above him).
I think thats all part and parcel of the same issue tbh.
You need great structures and people below the manager, sure, and we've obviously been doing that.
But you need a top level manager as well.
In your next post, you say....
"I Don’t think “title challange” should be on our radar next season. If we get into CL it should be about getting out of the group and getting a top 4 spot proper. If things go really well next season then maybe we might be able to put a decent challange thereafter."
This is literally insane to me.
By next season, Ole will have spent 350m (if we get Sancho) and you're still setting the bar exactly where it is right now. Two years, you're still only talking about a "decent challange". At a point where Ole would have had so much investment, so much time to build the club in his vision, and you'd still be ok with a "decent challenge"?
Forget structure, forget people below the manager. First thing first is getting the standards set. Some fans seem so desperate to keep a manager they like as a person that they're setting a bar that is way below what we should be expecting. Setting the bar at a "decent challenge" in two years time, 3 and a half into Ole's tennure, 350m minimum spent (presuming he'd buy no one else other than Sancho in the next two years). Thats not ignoring the issues we've had over 7 years, but it feels like you're using issues from two managers ago to give Ole excuse after excuse.
If we bring in Sancho next year, we should be challanging next season. Pep would have us challenging next year if given that time and investment that Ole has gotten. Klopp would have us challenging next year.
Its actually mind boggling that you're already trying to set such a low bar for next year already...0 -
Your Airbag wrote: »Ole isn't getting an additional 350m budget tacked onto a team that finished second though is he. A lot of players form Jose's time are gone, about 12 at least off the top of my head but some may have been before or after the 2nd place finish. Its not the same squad at all.
Ole has shifted out a lot of the old guard in a short space of time, there was always going to be an effect while we re-adjusted. I wouldn't agree with bangkok that its been brilliant, thats over optimistic but saying Ole took a second place squad and has them on course for the lowest this and that is totally disingenuous.
He took over from Joses FINAL season, that season Utd were 6th and playing very badly, after the new manager bounce wore off reality set it. Ole had to get rid of a lot of players that were clearly spent and a team playing woeful football.
Its sugar coating things for the previous manager and cherry picking the best to hold against the current manager. Saying he took a second place team to where we are now is a garbage spin on things. Jose took his 2nd place team to 6th and then Ole took over. You don't just get to ignore Joses final season, it was really poor and thats the point the next manager picked up the batton from.
I sort of agree with this to some degree. Ole inherited a squad that finished 2nd (plus fred/Dalot), but when he took over it was a squad full of despondent senior players who wanted to leave because they saw the club as a sinking ship. Kind of comparable with Moyes taking over a league winning squad, the players joined for the manager (SAF/Jose) so it wasn't completely fair to blame the incoming manager for the decline.
It is way to simplistic to saw "Ole had a 2nd place team". The club tried to build a squad around Jose, after trying to build a squad around LVG, after doing nothing for Moyes :pac: . .
It sounded pathetic when they hired Ole and said they wanted to make the players/fans happy, but maybe its a better strategy then trying to build everything around a manager and nobody being happy. Maybe they actually have a plan and its more about having a likable squad, a positive culture within that squad and maybe even a squad that might work well under multiple managers that wont require complete rebuilds every 2-3 years.
I can get on board a strategy like that, but again, I will be dubious until we start seeing consistent returns from our investments.0 -
This is literally insane to me.
By next season, Ole will have spent 350m (if we get Sancho) and you're still setting the bar exactly where it is right now. Two years, you're still only talking about a "decent challange". At a point where Ole would have had so much investment, so much time to build the club in his vision, and you'd still be ok with a "decent challenge"?
I don't think we can reasonably expect to challenge next season, Liverpool and City are a couple of levels ahead of us. We are not there yet, the squad still needs a lot of work.0 -
you would swear the squad jose finished 2nd with was some sort of sunday league squad,
he spent a fortune on that team, broke the world record transfer for pogba, had players like zlatan, lukaku sanchez rashford mkhitarayan carrick lindelof bailly de gea martial fellaini mata herrera prob more i cant even remember, all seasoned international footballers but was that not the season liverpool got to champions league final so basically took their foot off the gas in the league?
the current TEAM we have now is a proper football team. Players all working hard for each other, no bullsh1t press conferences, no negativity around the place and finally everyone rowing in the right direction0 -
I don't have the apathy towards the team that I did under José and LVG towards the end of their tenures. I like Ole and am enjoying watching this group even if they come apart at times and I still harbour major doubts about a couple of the players. Definitely on the right track imo. Certain results this season have been very disappointing obviously but I think they are things that can be worked on..
I think the difference is that with this team you genuinely feel that they want to play together and for the club. We didnt feel that in the past but also some work thats gone on behind the scenes the club played a blinder over lockdown and the players too it all helps.
But performances on pitch have helped alot too and how quick bruno seems to habe settled into the side and seems to get on woth everyone. Long may it continue.0 -
I think thats all part and parcel of the same issue tbh.
You need great structures and people below the manager, sure, and we've obviously been doing that.
But you need a top level manager as well.
In your next post, you say....
"I Don’t think “title challange” should be on our radar next season. If we get into CL it should be about getting out of the group and getting a top 4 spot proper. If things go really well next season then maybe we might be able to put a decent challange thereafter."
This is literally insane to me.
By next season, Ole will have spent 350m (if we get Sancho) and you're still setting the bar exactly where it is right now. Two years, you're still only talking about a "decent challange". At a point where Ole would have had so much investment, so much time to build the club in his vision, and you'd still be ok with a "decent challenge"?
Forget structure, forget people below the manager. First thing first is getting the standards set. Some fans seem so desperate to keep a manager they like as a person that they're setting a bar that is way below what we should be expecting. Setting the bar at a "decent challenge" in two years time, 3 and a half into Ole's tennure, 350m minimum spent (presuming he'd buy no one else other than Sancho in the next two years). Thats not ignoring the issues we've had over 7 years, but it feels like you're using issues from two managers ago to give Ole excuse after excuse.
If we bring in Sancho next year, we should be challanging next season. Pep would have us challenging next year if given that time and investment that Ole has gotten. Klopp would have us challenging next year.
Its actually mind boggling that you're already trying to set such a low bar for next year already...
Do we know structures are changing for the better and the club is being run better ? Is it because we had one or two decent transfer windows and a couple of youngsters coming through ? I personally think it might be a few years before we can confidently say things are being done better in the background, I would say "good signs, more signs needed" before declaring the club has sorted itself out.
Who is deciding how to spend this money ? It shouldnt be Ole and if it is, it shouldn't be, no other club in the world just gives entire kitties to a managers. If we arent buying the right kind of players, why is that a managers fault ? If we spend 400 million and Ole doesnt work out and the next manager has to do yet another complete rebuild, its not Oles fault, its the club again for not being able to build a squad this is not limited to one manager. We shouldnt be buying players "for Ole", we should be buying to build a squad that represents whatever it is the club wants it vision to be, it should also be a squad that will be able to work with a new manager like most other well run clubs in the world.
Im not setting a low bar, Im just not ignoring the elephant issues with the club that you keep pasting over. Man City and Liverpool are well run clubs, we have not proven that in nearly a decade, a quality manager can only paper over these cracks so much.0 -
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Paying 80m for Maguire still stands out as an obscene transfer that wasn't overly needed. Surely a better option in world football at that price? AWB, while obviously a great young player was 50m odd too? Seems to be a smack of only looking at English players and the net not being cast too wide, bar Bruno who seemed almost forced on them. So that sort of thing is still worrisome.0
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I said it at the time, but Lukaku was such a bad fit for United. José needs a player who can play with his back to goal and hold the ball up. Paying that money for him after paying that money for Pogba was ridiculous. I doubt there were 2 other players in world football who would have cost that much and achieved so little relative to their cost.
Jose wanted a bully type striker up front like Drogba.0 -
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Wonder if Liverpool winning the league last night will give our club and players an extra push and motivation to make things right and bring the club back where we belong. I think Ole needs to give all the lads a talk this morning on how we desperately need to keep improving and keep the foot on the pedal so Liverpool and even City don't end up winning titles season after season after season.
Same goes for the boardroom. Chelsea have already made some very impressive signings, we all know Pep is probably going to be making big changes this summer, Liverpool are going to strengthen too. Woodward needs to pull the right signings out of the bag this summer. He needs to get Ole's first choice signings whether that be Sancho, Grealish, Ndidi, Van de Beek, Dembele, whoever it may be, we have to get the recruitment right this summer to stay afloat in this league.0 -
I think United had to realise why they were inconsistent each season. The first step is to stop trying to reach for where you want to be by throwing money at it (players or managers) as if that is a guarantee of success.
United, with Woodward in charge thought they could spend out of trouble. But then had to keep spending and the club (or maybe Woodward) realised it was not working without more substance behind the reasons they were spending.
That team who finished second does not exist anymore, the person in charge at the time did not even want that team again the next season to be fair.
If United continue to focus on the manager not achieving certain targets and do not factor in the reasons why they finished in a certain place then the club will continue be inconsistent.
They took a big risk this season in terms of moving players out and not getting the quality into the attacking third that Bruno has now helped provide. Ultimately waiting until the end of January could be at the expense of a decent league position.
When looking at Ole I would look at the last 20 games to see if progress was made from the 20 before that. If the final league spot can be mainly attributed to things going wrong earlier in the season then I could accept that.
One thing that I was bothered by was the reliance on points from the counter attack against stronger teams, if Ole gets a lot of points in what is left of the season against teams United have to take the game to them it will be a big change and sign of progress.
In the way football has gone I would never rule out changing the manager if a even better option is out there. At the end of the season, looking at the final league position or what happens in a cup may not be that informative about where this United team is actually at, or the direction it is heading, if we don't look at the season overall.0 -
https://twitter.com/MichealMartinTD/status/1276274151783903235?s=19
I didn't actually know Michael Martin was a Utd fan. Fair play to him being so magnanimous. I have similar feelings myself.0 -
Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »https://twitter.com/MichealMartinTD/status/1276274151783903235?s=19
I didn't actually know Michael Martin was a Utd fan. Fair play to him being so magnanimous. I have similar feelings myself.
Whatever about being magnanimous but "Enjoy the success"? "#LFC"? You can fúck right off with that.
They're United's biggest and most hated rivals. I gain not one iota of enjoyment out of their success.0 -
Whatever about being magnanimous but "Enjoy the success"? "#LFC"? You can fúck right off with that.
They're United's biggest and most hated rivals. I gain not one iota of enjoyment out of their success.
I agree with these sentiments. I don’t begrudge them the win, their football is great, they are a well run club (and have good owners) and clearly the better team by far this season.
But I’m not “enjoying” their success, nor should any United fan enjoy it, if you are there’s something wrong and maybe you need to get that checked out. You can be gracious about their success without being happy it happened.
In terms of what Pool have done, it begs the question again as to why United can’t get itself organised in a way that can yield similar or better results. Throw Klopp or Pep into our club anytime over the last 7 years and we don’t win a league or CL, we just don’t. Pep and Klopp don’t identify all their targets so it would be naieve to believe that we would of spent a lot more different to a degree taht would of made a massive difference.
On the optimist side of things, the club is still big and rich enough to fix its problems. Part of the reason Jose worked is because the club followed his lead for the first two seasons. As soon as they pulled bavk and started doing things their own failed ways again it all fell apart. Let’s not forget that.0 -
Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »https://twitter.com/MichealMartinTD/status/1276274151783903235?s=19
I didn't actually know Michael Martin was a Utd fan. Fair play to him being so magnanimous. I have similar feelings myself.
Looks to me like he's not sure? He "might" be!0 -
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Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »https://twitter.com/MichealMartinTD/status/1276274151783903235?s=19
I didn't actually know Michael Martin was a Utd fan. Fair play to him being so magnanimous. I have similar feelings myself.
He'll do anything to get a few votes.0 -
I think saying a title challenge next season is a must, ignores the reality of the league. Look at what City did last season. Look at what Liverpool did this season.
You have to be nearly *perfect* to challenge for the title. You have to be one of the best sides in football to challenge for the title in England, arguably the team finishing 3rd next season could make a legit claim at being the 3rd best team in football.
United could top the points in any Fergie season, and not challenge for the title.
I think United have to look at being 'best of the rest' after City and Liverpool, and as close to those two as we can get. Even at that Chelsea look like they are commited to building a squad that will be tough to go against too.
I don't think a season like this season is anywhere near what will be acceptable. United should be comfortable top 4, finishing top 4 should not be something we doubt. But the reality is that actually challenging for the title will take a huge effort from whomever gets there.0 -
Mitch Connor wrote: »I think saying a title challenge next season is a must, ignores the reality of the league. Look at what City did last season. Look at what Liverpool did this season.
I'm not denying it's a tough ask.
My point is simply this.
Three years ago, Liverpool finished on 76 points, we finished on 69
Two years ago, Liverpool finished on 75 points. We finished on 81.
Last year, Liverpool finished on 97 points. We finished on 66.
This year, Pool look well on track for a mid-90s finish. The best we can do is 70.
With the exception of two years ago, we've been ultra static. We spend a load of money, and finish round 70. Since Fergie left, we've only hit above 70 points once.
And again, next summer, we're now saying we're happy to stick in the 70-80 range? And then, maybe, in two years, we might put up a challenge? (And I'll be honest, I've little faith we aren't back here again next summer going "Well, we just have to get comfortable top 4 next year" again.)
For me, thats a lack of ambition and standards. Pool made the jump, backed with intelligent recruitment and a manager who they knew was good enough to kick them up the table.
My fear, right now, is our recruitment has improved drastically, but yet we're still going to remain happy to keep chugging along in a fight for top four?
At some points, we have to raise the standards. Personally, I think if Sancho and a MFer like VDB or Grealish gets added, we have a squad that's just as good as the likes of City and Pool. Especially if we keep Pogba, and with Rashford, Martial, Greenwood and McT a year older. We have a squad that absolutely should be pushing for 85-90 points minimum, given the level of ability and money invested.
Two years ago, we managed to get 81 points, which should have been the raising of the bar, a total to build upon. Instead, we slipped back again.
Nothing ever seems to change. The faces in the manager seat does, but the standards arent, and thats so frustrating. At some point, we have to demand we actually see a payoff. Otherwise, we'll keep spending hundreds of millions and keep getting ~70 points, waiting patently till our year rolls around in an undefined number of years...0 -
Mitch Connor wrote: »
I don't think a season like this season is anywhere near what will be acceptable. United should be comfortable top 4, finishing top 4 should not be something we doubt. But the reality is that actually challenging for the title will take a huge effort from whomever gets there.
I think it’s something we very much need to doubt, it’s looking dodgy now.
Unless we make acquisitions to improve us this summer that doubt is staying.
As a club, by virtue of our location and the continuing corona shîtshow in the UK it’s going to be hard to entice players to come. Players will like everyone now want surety, safety and somewhere they know... upping sticks in the middle of what has been going on, living in hotels, house hunting, car shopping ... even if it meant stepping up to play for United, from a less prestigious or successful outfit won’t come into it, now players would be happy to be safe and well at OGC Nice making a cool 35,000 a week as opposed to 70,000 at United.
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I'm not denying it's a tough ask.
My point is simply this.
Three years ago, Liverpool finished on 76 points, we finished on 69
Two years ago, Liverpool finished on 75 points. We finished on 81.
Last year, Liverpool finished on 97 points. We finished on 66.
This year, Pool look well on track for a mid-90s finish. The best we can do is 70.
With the exception of two years ago, we've been ultra static. We spend a load of money, and finish round 70. Since Fergie left, we've only hit above 70 points once.
And again, next summer, we're now saying we're happy to stick in the 70-80 range? And then, maybe, in two years, we might put up a challenge? (And I'll be honest, I've little faith we aren't back here again next summer going "Well, we just have to get comfortable top 4 next year" again.)
For me, thats a lack of ambition and standards. Pool made the jump, backed with intelligent recruitment and a manager who they knew was good enough to kick them up the table.
My fear, right now, is our recruitment has improved drastically, but yet we're still going to remain happy to keep chugging along in a fight for top four?
At some points, we have to raise the standards. Personally, I think if Sancho and a MFer like VDB or Grealish gets added, we have a squad that's just as good as the likes of City and Pool. Especially if we keep Pogba, and with Rashford, Martial, Greenwood and McT a year older. We have a squad that absolutely should be pushing for 85-90 points minimum, given the level of ability and money invested.
Two years ago, we managed to get 81 points, which should have been the raising of the bar, a total to build upon. Instead, we slipped back again.
Nothing ever seems to change. The faces in the manager seat does, but the standards arent, and thats so frustrating. At some point, we have to demand we actually see a payoff. Otherwise, we'll keep spending hundreds of millions and keep getting ~70 points, waiting patently till our year rolls around in an undefined number of years...
Agree with this. It's nice to say 3 year plan etc but how about delivering at some point? We've had a go at the 3 year plan a few times and here we are. We need a title in the next 3 years maximum and the club should be trying this for next season.0 -
From the outside United currently look very good and the whole mood of the club seems to have changed of the back of one singing , It shows how close you can be even when you look miles off,
I think they can put pressure on Liverpool and City next season and the season after have a proper go,
Your never as far away as you think , Liverpool always got close and then lost a top player and would have to start again, United's finical power means they can probably avoid that, it won't be long before they are back challenging at least ,
With all that being said I seen today that if they drop 6 points between now and the end of the season it will be there worst ever points tally post Old division 1 , For the record I don't think they will I reckon they win 6 of there 7 games and draw the other,0 -
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Mitch Connor wrote: »I think saying a title challenge next season is a must, ignores the reality of the league. Look at what City did last season. Look at what Liverpool did this season.
You have to be nearly *perfect* to challenge for the title. You have to be one of the best sides in football to challenge for the title in England, arguably the team finishing 3rd next season could make a legit claim at being the 3rd best team in football.
United could top the points in any Fergie season, and not challenge for the title.
I think United have to look at being 'best of the rest' after City and Liverpool, and as close to those two as we can get. Even at that Chelsea look like they are commited to building a squad that will be tough to go against too.
I don't think a season like this season is anywhere near what will be acceptable. United should be comfortable top 4, finishing top 4 should not be something we doubt. But the reality is that actually challenging for the title will take a huge effort from whomever gets there.
The bar Liverpool and City have set in the last 2 years has been incredible, as you say you would have to be almost perfect to win it. However I just cant see that been the case next season. Liverpool and City will still be strong but I think the points tally to win it will come back down to the 80ish mark. and I think that is something united can aim for next year!0 -
Big quote
I don't particularly disagree.
I thinkt he club should be aiming at 80points or so next season as the target. IMO the 81 gained by the Jose side saw a sh1t load of terrible, horrible, performances. Where we pulled out wins where we shouldn't have. We have gone backwards, even from there. We need to get back to that level of points, but with much better performances.
IIRC we were all saying United needed a lot of changes that summer to compete - so it was not considered that the side that finished 2nd was nearly there.
IMO saying anything less than 95 points is a failure, which is what we are talking about for a title challenge last season and this season, is unrealistic. Now, we could challenge at around 80 or 85 - as City might have a similar season next season and Liverpool might not be basically perfect (results wise) as they have been the last 2 seasons.
But if Liverpool and City are hitting 95/97/100 points and United finish 3rd with 80-85... I just don't think I could point at that and think 'Failure, disgraceful' at a base level (context may be important).
Liverpool and City at their best are relentlessly consistent, and that has come over time.
If United singed Sancho and VDB for example, I think from a first 11 point of view we are a match for anyone. But we would also be relying on a number of young players, and with young players comes inconsistency. I saw a think last night that United have the youngest team in the PL, on average (weighed by minutes so not sure the maths).
Right now, if a team isn't essentially *perfect* week in, week out, they aren't winning the title. To go from where we are, to perfection, is a tall order.0 -
Ottoman_1000 wrote: »The bar Liverpool and City have set in the last 2 years has been incredible, as you say you would have to be almost perfect to win it. However I just cant see that been the case next season. Liverpool and City will still be strong but I think the points tally to win it will come back down to the 80ish mark. and I think that is something united can aim for next year!
If the points do come down, then the conversation changes. My point is I just don't think saying anything less than a title challenge is a failure takes into account the context of what a title challenge needs in the last couple of seasons.0 -
I think it’s something we very much need to doubt, it’s looking dodgy now.
Unless we make acquisitions to improve us this summer that doubt is staying.
.
No one has said anything that this argument is valid for.
We are talking about what would be acceptable for next season. continuing as we are, is not acceptable.... so I don't know what you are trying to argue here.0 -
I'm not denying it's a tough ask.
My point is simply this.
Three years ago, Liverpool finished on 76 points, we finished on 69
Two years ago, Liverpool finished on 75 points. We finished on 81.
Last year, Liverpool finished on 97 points. We finished on 66.
This year, Pool look well on track for a mid-90s finish. The best we can do is 70.
With the exception of two years ago, we've been ultra static. We spend a load of money, and finish round 70. Since Fergie left, we've only hit above 70 points once.
And again, next summer, we're now saying we're happy to stick in the 70-80 range? And then, maybe, in two years, we might put up a challenge? (And I'll be honest, I've little faith we aren't back here again next summer going "Well, we just have to get comfortable top 4 next year" again.)
For me, thats a lack of ambition and standards. Pool made the jump, backed with intelligent recruitment and a manager who they knew was good enough to kick them up the table.
My fear, right now, is our recruitment has improved drastically, but yet we're still going to remain happy to keep chugging along in a fight for top four?
At some points, we have to raise the standards. Personally, I think if Sancho and a MFer like VDB or Grealish gets added, we have a squad that's just as good as the likes of City and Pool. Especially if we keep Pogba, and with Rashford, Martial, Greenwood and McT a year older. We have a squad that absolutely should be pushing for 85-90 points minimum, given the level of ability and money invested.
Two years ago, we managed to get 81 points, which should have been the raising of the bar, a total to build upon. Instead, we slipped back again.
Nothing ever seems to change. The faces in the manager seat does, but the standards arent, and thats so frustrating. At some point, we have to demand we actually see a payoff. Otherwise, we'll keep spending hundreds of millions and keep getting ~70 points, waiting patently till our year rolls around in an undefined number of years...
Who is "happy" finishing just in the top 4 ? I dont think anybody is saying that. There is no reasonable reason that United have been out of the top 4 so consistently other then how the clubs hierarchy have wasted our resources and invested little to nothing on upgrading and educating themselves on best practices. Pep or Klopp dont fix broken clubs, they thrive at well run clubs, I would rather hire these lads when the club has proven itself to be well run. The two top coaches we have had at United have both expressed significant concerns at how our club is run, why would Pep or Klopp come to a basketcase club that has been toxic for pretty much all players and managers who have come ? Not one person leaving United over the last 7 years has had their reputation enhanced, maybe Zlatan but nothing more that he hadn't done at other clubs.
I said if they got their sh*t together as a club and were able to run it properly, I would take a few years in the wilderness while they did it right. Maybe Ole is that manager to bridge us being a joke of a club to being one that is ready to have a top class manager actually challenge for something. What I am not happy or content with is placing all my hopes on a manager coming in and making everything right because thats what we have been doing since SAF left.0 -
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