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Solar Pump Failure ? Help

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2

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    #32
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,466 ✭✭✭John.G


    There are two relay outputs on that controller, R1 is the electronic(speed) output and R2 is the mechanical fixed speed output, so depending on what your test, above, shows, you may be able to use R2 (if R1 is currently in use) and just run off the collector/store temperature differential (like mine) until you decide what to do.
    If the pump doesn't rotate on its present setting, you could try one of the other settings 1,2 or 3 and see if that gets the pump going as a temporary fix.


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    #33
    garyh3
    Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭garyh3


    Looking though options

    ABS R1 set Relay 1 @ 12 for 5 seconds (frost protection)

    ABS R2 Relay 2 @ 12 for 5 seconds (Anti Seizing)

    Thats what there currently set at

    Gary


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    #34
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,466 ✭✭✭John.G


    Not sure re frost protection on R1 but I certainly know that my controller pulses the pump on for 5 secs at noon (12) each day if the pump hasn't ran in the past 24 hours.
    Anyhow carry out your test and see what it shows up.


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    #35
    garyh3
    Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭garyh3


    Ok Hot wired it and it came on making a bit of noise though. The S1 temp tubes went down but S3 remained at 30 Degrees ??? Didnt go up as was expecting. (S3 not faulty) ?

    any ideas


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    #36
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,466 ✭✭✭John.G


    Not familiar with that controller but generally speaking S1 is the collector (tube) temperature, S2 is probably the store (bottom of cylinder, just above the top of the solar coil) temperature and S3 might be the cylinder Top temperature, I would expect T2 to rise gradually and eventually, depending on the cylinder temperature gradient, S3 to start rising at the same rate as S2 provided no body is drawing hot water off.
    Anyhow since S1 is decreasing and you know that the pump is operating, you might just switch the pump setting, and see if still noisy, select it to the lowest least noisy setting. You could then try it back on relay R1 and see if it runs, if not c/o wiring to output R2 and see what happens. You might also see what programme the Controller is currently set to and I can have a look at it.


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    #37
    garyh3
    Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭garyh3


    thats correct John

    S1 tubes
    S2 Bottom of tank
    S3 Top of Tank

    When hot wired it nothing changed except S1

    I would expect S2 and S3 to go up

    Gary


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    #38
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,466 ✭✭✭John.G


    Was the sun out??, the heat has to be going somewhere, obviously if you are running the pump manually then once S1 is equal to S2, then no heat will be transferred, the way I have set mine up is Pump ON when (S1-S2) = 10C and Pump OFF when (S1-S2) = 3C.

    You will have to get your pump running from the controller, either via R1 or R2 before you can form any real opinion except you sit in front of the display and operate the pump roughly based on my settings above.


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    #39
    garyh3
    Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭garyh3


    John.G wrote: »
    Was the sun out??, the heat has to be going somewhere, obviously if you are running the pump manually then once S1 is equal to S2, then no heat will be transferred, the way I have set mine up is Pump ON when (S1-S2) = 10C and Pump OFF when (S1-S2) = 3C.

    You will have to get your pump running from the controller, either via R1 or R2 before you can form any real opinion except you sit in front of the display and operate the pump roughly based on my settings above.

    Sun was out about 120 on the tubes but S2S3 didnt move very strange could there be a problem with the control unit?


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    #40
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,466 ✭✭✭John.G


    If S1 fell substantially below 120C and S2 didn't move then it points to air in the system.


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    #41
    dathi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,386 ✭✭✭dathi


    https://www.nn-energy.se/doc/tdc3_english_72013.pdf

    have a look here the settings are t-min s1 tmax s2 and aTr1 they are in settings which is no5 on list on controller still say you need to refill


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    #42
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,466 ✭✭✭John.G


    Whatever settings are there at the moment have served Gary well for the past 15 years or so, but may have to modified slightly if the pump was changed over to run on/off as against it's presumably variable speed mode. The problems possibly started when the pump gave up and the E.tubes then reached stagnation temperature which can be up to 240C, when this happens the solar fluid starts vaporising and blows the remaining liquid down into the E.vessel, when the temperature falls the vapour condenses and returns to its liquid state, the problem is that air can form when this is happening, presumably when the liquid turns into a vapour, and then has to be purged from the system. E.tubes are far worse in this regard as F.Plates do not reach stagnation temperatures as easily because they are not as efficient.

    I would agree that the system needs purging and probably refilling/recharging but the pump problem will have to addressed first, probably a new pump. another item that's overlooked is that when the system is being commissioned or/and recharged that not enough attention is paid to the pre charge pressure and the filling pressure, the filling pressure should be ~ 0.3 to 0.5 bar higher than the pre charge pressure to give a reserve of solar fluid, for example my 18 litre E.vessel was pre charged to 2.0 bar and filled to 2.5 bar which gave a reserve of around 2.5 litres and has never required topping up, (obviously, no leaks either).


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    #43
    garyh3
    Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭garyh3


    dathi wrote: »
    https://www.nn-energy.se/doc/tdc3_english_72013.pdf

    have a look here the settings are t-min s1 tmax s2 and aTr1 they are in settings which is no5 on list on controller still say you need to refill

    Mine are set to Tmin S1 15 degrees C and Tmax S2 70 Degrees C
    tr1 16 degrees C Tset is 65 hystersis 65


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    #44
    garyh3
    Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭garyh3


    also tubes are old is it possible to get replacements as I suspect that some of the tubes have failed

    wimex pannels
    58mm x1800mm
    22 mm copper


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    #45
    garyh3
    Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭garyh3


    John.G wrote: »
    If S1 fell substantially below 120C and S2 didn't move then it points to air in the system.

    Exactly what happened


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    #46
    garyh3
    Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭garyh3


    John.G wrote: »
    Whatever settings are there at the moment have served Gary well for the past 15 years or so, but may have to modified slightly if the pump was changed over to run on/off as against it's presumably variable speed mode. The problems possibly started when the pump gave up and the E.tubes then reached stagnation temperature which can be up to 240C, when this happens the solar fluid starts vaporising and blows the remaining liquid down into the E.vessel, when the temperature falls the vapour condenses and returns to its liquid state, the problem is that air can form when this is happening, presumably when the liquid turns into a vapour, and then has to be purged from the system. E.tubes are far worse in this regard as F.Plates do not reach stagnation temperatures as easily because they are not as efficient.

    I would agree that the system needs purging and probably refilling/recharging but the pump problem will have to addressed first, probably a new pump. another item that's overlooked is that when the system is being commissioned or/and recharged that not enough attention is paid to the pre charge pressure and the filling pressure, the filling pressure should be ~ 0.3 to 0.5 bar higher than the pre charge pressure to give a reserve of solar fluid, for example my 18 litre E.vessel was pre charged to 2.0 bar and filled to 2.5 bar which gave a reserve of around 2.5 litres and has never required topping up, (obviously, no leaks either).

    Well if its a new pump would a variable speed be better ?
    would be a like for like pump 25-60 180 ?

    New pump will have to drain the system so will have to Change glycol

    thanks for your advice


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    #47
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,466 ✭✭✭John.G


    The older generation pumps like yours were fixed speed only but can/were run in variable speed mode by means of the controller variable speed output, R1, all new "smart" pumps are variable speed by the nature of their electronics so a bit of care must be exercised when choosing the pump to make it compatible with the controller variable speed output, I have seen where some of these pumps have a pulse width modulation (PWM) mode which can be used in conjunction with your controller, just ensure that the correct pump is selected, dathi might advise on this.


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    #48
    dathi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,386 ✭✭✭dathi


    John.G wrote: »
    The older generation pumps like yours were fixed speed only but can/were run in variable speed mode by means of the controller variable speed output, R1, all new "smart" pumps are variable speed by the nature of their electronics so a bit of care must be exercised when choosing the pump to make it compatible with the controller variable speed output, I have seen where some of these pumps have a pulse width modulation (PWM) mode which can be used in conjunction with your controller, just ensure that the correct pump is selected, dathi might advise on this.

    I have only changed my own pump changed it like for like sent link to gar had tried modern pump wilco yonos but the controller wasn't able work with it massive buzzing


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    #49
    dathi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,386 ✭✭✭dathi


    garyh3 wrote: »
    also tubes are old is it possible to get replacements as I suspect that some of the tubes have failed

    wimex pannels
    58mm x1800mm
    22 mm copper

    if you check the bottom of the tubes if the silver has turned white the vacuum has blown was a guy on adverts selling them a while ago


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    #50
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,466 ✭✭✭John.G


    dathi wrote: »
    I have only changed my own pump changed it like for like sent link to gar had tried modern pump wilco yonos but the controller wasn't able work with it massive buzzing

    My 9 year old system has a Wilo ST 25/6-3, 3 speed pump, set to minimum speed, the controller, a fairly basic Lago SD2, only sends a stop/start signal to the pump so the Wilo Yonos Pico set to one of the constant speeds should be OK for this signal but not for a variable speed (R1) signal.
    I think that the direct replacement for the Wilo ST 25/6-3 is the Wilo ST 25/6-3P.


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    #51
    garyh3
    Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭garyh3


    John.G wrote: »
    My 9 year old system has a Wilo ST 25/6-3, 3 speed pump, set to minimum speed, the controller, a fairly basic Lago SD2, only sends a stop/start signal to the pump so the Wilo Yonos Pico set to one of the constant speeds should be OK for this signal but not for a variable speed (R1) signal.
    I think that the direct replacement for the Wilo ST 25/6-3 is the Wilo ST 25/6-3P.


    To be honest i think ill do a like for like pump change and jjst get the system purged and re pressured no point in trying to get a variable to work i def need to get the tubes looked as there are 72 of them and dont really get the heat anymore


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    #52
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,466 ✭✭✭John.G


    Yes, of course, you will have to replace your pump with a like for like if you want to stay running on your variable speed output relay R1, I only suggested that above in my case because I only have a on/off signal, if my pump packed up, I could utilise the smart pump running in fixed speed mode and I have a "spare" Yonos Pico somewhere. (I have 2XFlat Plates+150 litre cylinder)
    Also, I'd be a bit concerned re your R1 output as its not driving the pump now, I know the pump is noisy but one would have thought that it would still be driven by that output.

    If you think you will be waiting a while for repairs/refurbishment and you are feeling a bit adventurous you might consider pumping up the E.vessel to 2.5 bar (as long as the liquid end pressure matches it) this will push another litre or so of liquid into the system and might give you a bit of solar water heating but will also entail changing over the wiring to power relay R2 to drive the pump in fixed speed pump mode for now.
    An how, let us know how you get on.


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    #53
    garyh3
    Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭garyh3


    Thanks John

    I going to order this (below) as its a like for like (and if the pump is ok then I have a spare). Im also concerned that my control box might be faulty as its not driving the pump.

    Thanks again for your advice

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CENTRAL-HEATING-CIRCULATOR-PUMP-IBO-25-60-180-REPLACES-GRUNDFOS-MYSON-WILO/114123966218?hash=item1a9251870a:g:maUAAOSwunNeL0Vc


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    #54
    garyh3
    Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭garyh3


    dathi wrote: »
    if you check the bottom of the tubes if the silver has turned white the vacuum has blown was a guy on adverts selling them a while ago

    Looking at mine through Binoculars there seems to be a plastic cap on the bottom of then so it impossible to tell


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    #55
    garyh3
    Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭garyh3


    Can Anyone tell me how I can I get the cables out of R1 and R2. I want to test the unit by switching R1 with R2. I can then manually switch on R1 or R2 in Manual mode. Just want to make sure that R1 is not faulty if it can switch on the Over heat pump.

    Im not failure with that connection block, so just some advice on how to get the L & N R1 and L & N R2 out of the blocks.


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    #56
    dathi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,386 ✭✭✭dathi


    they are spring clips the little hole behind each wire opens it make sure the electricity is turned off to the controller as that's 230v


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    #57
    garyh3
    Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭garyh3


    Ok I then moved the R1 onto R2 and R2 onto R1

    Bad news was that R1 didnt turn over heat pump on so it seems the controller not switching the pump on ???

    When I switched the cables back R2 turned the over heat pump on.

    Anyone have any ideas if it could be a fuse issue or anything to look for on the circuit board. Ive looked and cannot see anything that looks burnt or broken

    Anyone any good at electronics ?


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    #58
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,466 ✭✭✭John.G


    Where/what is this over heat pump? and can you just remove the cable from it and install it in the solar circ pump and see if it drives it.?, I presume you have done the same with the R1 phase and neutral and connected it to this over heat pump which doesn't turn??

    When you swapped R1 & R2, did you swap the neutrals as well?, don't know if this would make any difference or not, especially to R1.


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    #59
    garyh3
    Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭garyh3


    John.G wrote: »
    Where/what is this over heat pump? and can you just remove the cable from it and install it in the solar circ pump and see if it drives it.?, I presume you have done the same with the R1 phase and neutral and connected it to this over heat pump which doesn't turn??

    When you swapped R1 & R2, did you swap the neutrals as well?, don't know if this would make any difference or not, especially to R1.

    Hi John

    Thats what I did. Both Live and Neutrol moved.

    The overheat is the 2nd pump that kicks in when the tank get too hot and bleeds heat out of the system.

    Gary


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    #60
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,466 ✭✭✭John.G


    Interesting, some systems use R2+3 way diverter valve+dump rad, other systems use R2+ existing CH system (with boiler inhibited) to do this. (maybe your system?)

    As a matter of interest, can you use R2 to start/stop your solar circ pump, (like my system) and bump up your EV pressure a bit which might keep you going for awhile until you decide on your course of action.


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    #61
    garyh3
    Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭garyh3


    The 2nd pump is just a bleed to the rads.... Company was Solar Creations, part of Allied Solar they folded about a year after the system was put in. So no support .....

    I think the system probably needs a complete MOT . The tubes need to be checked so does the pump and the control unit.

    Now that Ive played around with the system there's not a lot too it. Solar collector, Pump, control unit.

    There are 72 tubes on 3 rails on the roof bit overkill now if I can get more efficient tubes just probable need to replace 20 tubes to get the same heat output.


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