Long Term Leasing to Council

harr · 14-04-2021 6:44pm

Friends of mine started this process with Co co and it was nearly costing them 40 grand to bring the house up to the conditions the council wanted.
All the floors replaced ( anti slip ) heating upgrades, whites goods , stair case , front door , attic door and a heap of insulation. Even the decking out the back was not in order.
The house was only 7 years old and was his wife’s before they married.
They didn’t want to be landlords so taught this route was the perfect solution and could keep the house as a nest egg .. they ended up selling it in the end.

Mad_maxx · 14-04-2021 7:37pm

harr wrote: »

Friends of mine started this process with Co co and it was nearly costing them 40 grand to bring the house up to the conditions the council wanted.
All the floors replaced ( anti slip ) heating upgrades, whites goods , stair case , front door , attic door and a heap of insulation. Even the decking out the back was not in order.
The house was only 7 years old and was his wife’s before they married.
They didn’t want to be landlords so taught this route was the perfect solution and could keep the house as a nest egg .. they ended up selling it in the end.

find that incredibly hard to believe , no way should a seven year old house require that kind of repairs to meet rental standards

The_Conductor · 14-04-2021 7:58pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

find that incredibly hard to believe , no way should a seven year old house require that kind of repairs to meet rental standards

Its not rental standards- its a local authority applying current building standards on a 7-10 (or older) property- when it doesn't have to comply with current building standards for any other purpose (including rental standards). They are well known for doing just this.

JimmyVik · 15-04-2021 8:31am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

you cant take a third party case to the RTB where the tenancy involves the local authority , the RTB has no jurisdiction to resolve those matters

I believe that is true.
The owner of the property can do nothing.
Cases have to be taken against the council. And through the courts, not the RTB.
It still doesnt top the neighbours finding the owner and harassing them though as the focus of their frustration.

JimmyVik · 15-04-2021 8:33am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

everything about that is correct bar the having to get a solicitor to draw up the lease , the council present the property owner with a standard lease and the property owner accepts it or lumps it

i have a ten year lease with Limerick CC , none of the above demands would i view as a big deal bar replacing the staircase but perhaps it was in poor order , engineer who inspected my place was pretty reasonable i have to say

i have a rent review in July of this year as three years will have passed , its worked well for me so far but my property was a very small capital investment

Who gets to decide how much the rent will be after the 3 years review.
Or is there some published figure that is used?

Mad_maxx · 15-04-2021 11:07am

JimmyVik wrote: »

Who gets to decide how much the rent will be after the 3 years review.
Or is there some published figure that is used?

i dont know but il tell you in three months

if my rent stays the same , il be content enough , i argued for a very high benchmark before the 20% below market deduction so im very happy with what im being paid

Mad_maxx · 15-04-2021 11:09am

JimmyVik wrote: »

I believe that is true.
The owner of the property can do nothing.
Cases have to be taken against the council. And through the courts, not the RTB.
It still doesnt top the neighbours finding the owner and harassing them though as the focus of their frustration.

still doesnt matter , the property owner cant do anything , even the property owner sold the house or apartment , the local authority still have a lease and a right to the use of it

i used to think you could take a third party case to the RTB but i looked into it , you cant

JimmyVik · 15-04-2021 11:37am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

still doesnt matter , the property owner cant do anything , even the property owner sold the house or apartment , the local authority still have a lease and a right to the use of it

i used to think you could take a third party case to the RTB but i looked into it , you cant

You would think that the property owner should be immune to any kind of action from anyone in a case like this. All they can do is pass on the irate messages to the council and nothing else.

The_Conductor · 15-04-2021 12:47pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

You would think that the property owner should be immune to any kind of action from anyone in a case like this. All they can do is pass on the irate messages to the council and nothing else.

I'm a director in a management company who are pursuing an owner in this precise situation. The owner can do whatsoever they wish with the local authority- we have a relationship with the owner, not with the local authority. If the owner does not remedy the antisocial behaviour (which in our case has necessitated a complete evacuation of a block overnight when the tenants tried to bypass the gas meter)- we can and will put a lien on their property, sufficient to cover the damage to other properties (which includes overnight accommodation costs when Bord Gais removed everyone from the block). The owner can chase the local authority for this- thats between them- its not our problem.

Mad_maxx · 15-04-2021 1:05pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

I'm a director in a management company who are pursuing an owner in this precise situation. The owner can do whatsoever they wish with the local authority- we have a relationship with the owner, not with the local authority. If the owner does not remedy the antisocial behaviour (which in our case has necessitated a complete evacuation of a block overnight when the tenants tried to bypass the gas meter)- we can and will put a lien on their property, sufficient to cover the damage to other properties (which includes overnight accommodation costs when Bord Gais removed everyone from the block). The owner can chase the local authority for this- thats between them- its not our problem.

What if it's a free hold house which the council have leased to the council?

cruizer101 · 15-04-2021 2:16pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

we can and will put a lien on their property, sufficient to cover the damage to other properties

How are you putting a lien on their property? Is it a court ordered lien or what is the mechanism by which you can put a lien on it.

I don't see how the owner can be responsible for expense caused by tenant damaging a gas line.

My understanding is normally RTB can order landlord to pay compensation if they have not taken appropriate action but this can't happen when LL is the council.

Also damaging a gas line to me is more than just antisocial behavior that the LL has failed to deal with, to me that more covers making noise litter in the front garden that kind of thing. LL can't be responsible for all a tenants actions.

JimmyVik · 16-04-2021 10:37am

cruizer101 wrote: »

How are you putting a lien on their property? Is it a court ordered lien or what is the mechanism by which you can put a lien on it.

I don't see how the owner can be responsible for expense caused by tenant damaging a gas line.

My understanding is normally RTB can order landlord to pay compensation if they have not taken appropriate action but this can't happen when LL is the council.

Also damaging a gas line to me is more than just antisocial behavior that the LL has failed to deal with, to me that more covers making noise litter in the front garden that kind of thing. LL can't be responsible for all a tenants actions.

I dont understand that at all either.

DubCount · 16-04-2021 10:42am

JimmyVik wrote: »

I dont understand that at all either.

I think what is being said is that the property owner has a head lease with the management company. This puts certain obligations on the owner. The management company may be in a position to claim damages from the property owner and create a lien on the property to ensure that liability is paid. There is nothing stopping the owner bringing a civil case against the tenant and/or the Local Authority. Thats not the concern of the management company - their contract (head lease) is with the owner.

JimmyVik · 16-04-2021 10:53am

DubCount wrote: »

I think what is being said is that the property owner has a head lease with the management company. This puts certain obligations on the owner. The management company may be in a position to claim damages from the property owner and create a lien on the property to ensure that liability is paid. There is nothing stopping the owner bringing a civil case against the tenant and/or the Local Authority. Thats not the concern of the management company - their contract (head lease) is with the owner.

Dont see how they can claim damages from someone who has no control over those causing the damages though.
Probably fro his solicitor to sort out though.

cruizer101 · 16-04-2021 11:32am

JimmyVik wrote: »

Dont see how they can claim damages from someone who has no control over those causing the damages though.

This is it, at what point does the LL become responsible, if someone moves in and on first day is causing issues, that can't be LL's responsibility and so long as they take reasonable action they can't be responsible.
Its blurry where the line is in terms of level of antisocial behavior and reasonable action, it could be debated long and hard.

I'm curious about the lien though. Afaik a management company can take a lien on the basis of unpaid management fees but I can't see how they could take a lien for other things. Is that part of the lease the owner has with them? What else can they take a lien for? Does it have to be court ordered?

JimmyVik · 16-04-2021 12:27pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

This is it, at what point does the LL become responsible, if someone moves in and on first day is causing issues, that can't be LL's responsibility and so long as they take reasonable action they can't be responsible.
Its blurry where the line is in terms of level of antisocial behavior and reasonable action, it could be debated long and hard.

I'm curious about the lien though. Afaik a management company can take a lien on the basis of unpaid management fees but I can't see how they could take a lien for other things. Is that part of the lease the owner has with them? What else can they take a lien for? Does it have to be court ordered?

Imagine the tenant robbed a bank and used the apartment as their base of operations for the robbery. The poor landlord would be screwed

The Student · 16-04-2021 1:12pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

This is it, at what point does the LL become responsible, if someone moves in and on first day is causing issues, that can't be LL's responsibility and so long as they take reasonable action they can't be responsible.
Its blurry where the line is in terms of level of antisocial behavior and reasonable action, it could be debated long and hard.

I'm curious about the lien though. Afaik a management company can take a lien on the basis of unpaid management fees but I can't see how they could take a lien for other things. Is that part of the lease the owner has with them? What else can they take a lien for? Does it have to be court ordered?

This is the how the rental system works in Ireland. The landlord can take all reasonable steps (look at the case of the landlord in Cork I think it was) where the District Court said the neighbours could sue the landlord for the actions of his tenants which were students.

This judgement was overturned by the High Court last week as it was held the landlord took all reasonable precautions to mitigate the risk.

A lien can be taken by anybody who wins a civil case and are awarded compensation. The Management company can take a civil case against the owner of the apartment for breach of contract between the owner and the management company.

If the court finds in the management company's favour and makes an award which is not paid by the owner then the management company can place a lien (charge) on the folio of property which must be discharged once the property changes hand (either through sale or transfer). The Solicitor who undertakes the sale of property is legally required to discharge all charges from the proceeds of sale before releasing the remaining funds from the sale to the owner.

Gandalph · 16-04-2021 1:18pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

Who gets to decide how much the rent will be after the 3 years review.
Or is there some published figure that is used?

The leases I have done are CPI linked every 3 years.

mrslancaster · 16-04-2021 2:14pm

From what our friend told us it is now linked to some EU table. Don't know what that is though.

JimmyVik · 16-04-2021 2:23pm

The Student wrote: »

This is the how the rental system works in Ireland. The landlord can take all reasonable steps (look at the case of the landlord in Cork I think it was) where the District Court said the neighbours could sue the landlord for the actions of his tenants which were students.

This judgement was overturned by the High Court last week as it was held the landlord took all reasonable precautions to mitigate the risk.

A lien can be taken by anybody who wins a civil case and are awarded compensation. The Management company can take a civil case against the owner of the apartment for breach of contract between the owner and the management company.

If the court finds in the management company's favour and makes an award which is not paid by the owner then the management company can place a lien (charge) on the folio of property which must be discharged once the property changes hand (either through sale or transfer). The Solicitor who undertakes the sale of property is legally required to discharge all charges from the proceeds of sale before releasing the remaining funds from the sale to the owner.

So a management company would have to win a civil case against a property owner for a lien?
Cant see anyone in their right mind holding a property owner responsible for something he can do nothing about. But I guess it did happen in Cork.

The Student · 16-04-2021 3:27pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

So a management company would have to win a civil case against a property owner for a lien?
Cant see anyone in their right mind holding a property owner responsible for something he can do nothing about. But I guess it did happen in Cork.

Correct in terms of the civil case for breach of contract. The lien is the enforcement of the compensation order.

The case in Cork was taken by the residents on the road the house was located. It was not an apartment complex.

Caranica · 16-04-2021 8:12pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

Dont see how they can claim damages from someone who has no control over those causing the damages though.
Probably fro his solicitor to sort out though.

In our development the head leases we signed say that if we rent out we are responsible for ensuring that our tenants comply with development rules and do not affect other residents peaceful enjoyment of their homes.

LizardKing · 01-03-2022 12:18pm

Dublin City Council did a review of my agreed rents for the last while and found they gave me a better rate than supposed to. They used daft rates but were supposed to use Consumer Price Index (CPI)

This error was corrected and they lowered my rent for the last couple of monts of the term. (rent is reviewed every 2 years) - Have little over 4 years left.

I was so angry as I didn't think they could change the rent which was agreed and signed off on.

I wanted to fight them but the legal costs and hassle may be too much.

Will just see out the last few years and probs just sell the apartment then.

Its changed my opinion on the whole leasing thing to be honest.

JimmyVik · 01-03-2022 2:43pm

Ive spken to a few people now on the LTL. ITs worked out for one or two, but been a total disaster for most of them. They are all planning to sell as soon as their lease is up. Seems renting to the council is as bad as renting to any troublesome tenant.

Mrs OBumble · 01-03-2022 3:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118713785#Comment_118713785

It's worse, because you don't get to vet the tenant at all.

Councils are by design responsible for housing those who no one else will house. The % with problems will be higher than the general renting population.

Yellow_Fern · 02-03-2022 9:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/112090211#Comment_112090211

I am aware that this is an old post from 2019, but I wonder about the mention of insulation. What insulation were you asked to add? There is no minimum insulation that I know of in the rental standards.

Long Term Leasing to Council

Comments