Irelands Biodiversity failure .

Car99 · 13-02-2021 1:13pm #1

Biodiversity around the world is declining at a rate never before seen in the history of mankind. Every year we are losing never to be replaced species of plants, insects, mammals and birds . The threatened or endangered list grows year on year while the land, seas and atmosphere are being altered at an unprecedented rate. While we look abroad with dismay and alarm at how countries like Brazil continue to cause such damage to biodiversity is it time we start to get our own back yard in order before scolding other nations?
Are we any better than these developing countries when we plant lifeless pine forests and intensively farm using chemicals and pesticides all in the pursuit of financial gain for food which is mostly sent to export. Most of our countryside is green but barren, yes there are pockets of wildlife but not enough.
The subsidies paid to land owners should be targeted at improving biodiversity instead of getting another slurry producing slotted shed built , another tonne of grass out of an acre or getting an extra litre of milk a year out of a cow .
Biodiversity would benefit the nation as a whole far more than intensive agriculture or commercial forestry.

Biodiversity or Irelands natural flora and fauna is very rarely a topic in RTE's programming. It like no one cares unless it's a forest in the Amazon or a cute little animal the WWF are campaigning for.

Good article here from the BBC website about Ireland.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210211-rewilding-can-ireland-regrow-its-wilderness

magicbastarder · 13-02-2021 1:15pm

Car99 wrote: »

Biodiversity would benefit the nation as a whole far more than intensive agriculture or commercial forestry.

'you can't make a living out of blue tits' is what i guess many people would respond with.

Car99 · 13-02-2021 1:36pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

'you can't make a living out of blue tits' is what i guess many people would respond with.

Alot of landowners keep telling us they cant make a living out of farming even with subsides either maybe they could change their business model.

NcdJd · 13-02-2021 2:02pm

Both of you should have a look at the Nature on your Farm thread in the Farming and Forestry forum with regard to what farmers are currently doing. I've a full set of biodiversity projects lined up for 2021 and have planted a couple of hundred native Irish trees so far since December.

We are all to blame for biodiversity loss. Everytime you put a piece of food in your mouth it had displaced the natural biodiversity of an area somewhere. As the op said start in your own back yard first.

magicbastarder · 13-02-2021 2:06pm

oh, i'm well aware that there are many responsible farmers. but there are many that are not; the fact that there are responsible people does not mean we shouldn't talk about the problematic ones.

gozunda · 13-02-2021 2:14pm

Car99 wrote: »

Alot of landowners keep telling us they cant make a living out of farming even with subsides either maybe they could change their business model.

Maybe you could change where you get your misinformation?

The EU provides agriculture subsidies for all types of agriculture- arable, horticultural and animal based farming in order to keep food prices low

And like all produce in the EU - agricultural products are traded. What is produced in Ireland is consumed here and also sold to other EU countries - which in turn helps supports the Irish economy.

And yes a lot of farmers do support biodiversity and wildlife.
But sure go ahead and tar everyone with the same brush :rolleyes:

Car99 · 13-02-2021 2:26pm

gozunda wrote: »

Maybe you could change where you get your misinformation?

The EU provides agriculture subsidies for all types of agriculture- arable, horticultural and animal based farming in order to keep food prices low

And like all produce in the EU - agricultural products are traded. What is produced in Ireland is consumed here and also sold to other EU countries - which in turn helps supports the Irish economy.

Maybe leave off the usual uninformed farmer bashing?

And yes a lot of farmers do support biodiversity and wildlife.
But sure go ahead and tar everyone with the same brush :rolleyes:

Nobody tarred everyone with the same brush . I'm not blaming farmers but I am questioning the policy that pushes intensive agriculture at the expense of the environment. You must see that yourself as a farmer to some extent.

gozunda · 13-02-2021 2:44pm

Car99 wrote: »

Nobody tarred everyone with the same brush . I'm not blaming farmers but I am questioning the policy that pushes intensive agriculture at the expense of the environment. You must see that yourself as a farmer to some extent.

Ah I see it's landowners. That's ok so

Car99 wrote: »

Alot of landowners keep telling us they cant make a living out of farming even with subsides either maybe they could change their business model.

Car99 wrote:

The subsidies paid to land owners should be targeted at improving biodiversity instead of getting another slurry producing slotted shed built , another tonne of grass out of an acre or getting an extra litre of milk a year out of a cow .

And no I don't doubt that the production of food- all types of food - arable, horticultural and animal based means that wildlife and the environment are under serious pressure. With rising populations - thats going to increase imo.

I was in Spain a few years back in an area that had intensive covered fruit and vegetable production. The landscape was obliterated as far as the eye could see with plastic covered growhouses and you literally could smell the chemical pesticide being used.

Tbh It made Ireland look like a paradise. You might be glad to learn that Ireland has a very low rate of pesticide use

NcdJd · 13-02-2021 2:55pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

oh, i'm well aware that there are many responsible farmers. but there are many that are not; the fact that there are responsible people does not mean we shouldn't talk about the problematic ones.

Every one of us is responsible for biodiversity loss is what I'm trying to say Magic. It's up to everyone to make small changes and be mindful of the consequences of what we do. Simple things like leaving the lawn mower in the shed for the summer and engaging with the local councils to try and get them to leave the grass cutting to the end of the summer and planting more trees in parks / green areas in housing estates. Community effort.

It's easy to blame a group from afar rather than looking locally as to what practical measures one can take as an individual or as a community. Sometimes people just need to get up off their arses and do something rather than just moaning about it.

Don't mean to offend anyone here, thats my view, just sick of people despairing and moaning on social media about the state of the environment instead of asking themselves, well is there something I can do ? Can I join a group of like minded people locally that I could become involved in improving the biodiversity of my area ? Do I need to start a group myself and see if there is anyone else interested?

NcdJd · 13-02-2021 3:32pm

Just one more thing to add I'll leave you in peace

There has been a massive opportunity missed in my opinion with the Bord Na Mona announcement stopping peat harvesting.

Whatever chance of restoring bogland and creating habits is now gone bar a couple of thousand acres for PR. As soon as the concrete starts pouring in for the wind and solar farms for the bulk of their land holdings, as part of the brown to green energy transition, the bogs are gone forever.

It's an absolute disgrace that this is allowed to happen and indicates the lack of any will within the state to do anything about it other than cover their arses on Ireland's green energy commitments.

magicbastarder · 13-02-2021 4:12pm

NcdJd wrote: »

Don't mean to offend anyone here, thats my view, just sick of people despairing and moaning on social media about the state of the environment instead of asking themselves, well is there something I can do ? Can I join a group of like minded people locally that I could become involved in improving the biodiversity of my area ? Do I need to start a group myself and see if there is anyone else interested?

not going to go into it here, but i am involved in such a group.

i was talking on this topic on a different discussion forum a while back and crunched some numbers; should i ever win the lotto, i'd love to buy a few acres and establish a hazelnut farm. i was crunching some numbers, and it's quite impressive to see how much food you can get off it, say compared to beef.
i was reading that the average yield p.a. per Ha in ireland of beef is approx 450kg (assuming i was reading the figures right, but that's not a given), and the expected yield in a hazelnut farm in the SE of england would be 3.5-4 tons p.a. per Ha.
i know you're not comparing like with like there, but if you dropped the expected harvest to 2 tons per acre for ireland, that's still 4 times as much by weight - and hazelnuts have over twice the calorie content by weight as beef does.

and you can browse chickens under the hazel trees (better for the trees too) so have a grand supply of eggs; or browsing pigs, and pigs browsed under hazels would command a price premium anyway.

anyway, as said, just a lotto fuelled fantasy...

magicbastarder · 13-02-2021 4:18pm

NcdJd wrote: »

Just one more thing to add I'll leave you in peace

this is the quandary though; swapping X with Y will often fix one issue but introduce another, and the goal would be to choose your poison in a way that does the least damage.

IMHO (and i'm well open to being corrected on much of this); browsing sheep on marginal land out west is an example of inefficient use of land. i have yet to find what the actual productivity of those farming practices are, and native trees would be quite happy on a lot of that land anyway. also, with expected increased rainfall, woodland on those hills would act as a better buffer for rainfall so we would in theory not see such extreme flooding events downstream after heavy rainfall.
the actual productivity of that land would be key here in deciding what to do with it. but anything i've read about it suggests from an economic point of view, it's throwing good money after bad.

PoorFarmer · 13-02-2021 4:23pm

NcdJd wrote: »

Every one of us is responsible for biodiversity loss is what I'm trying to say Magic. It's up to everyone to make small changes and be mindful of the consequences of what we do. Simple things like leaving the lawn mower in the shed for the summer and engaging with the local councils to try and get them to leave the grass cutting to the end of the summer and planting more trees in parks / green areas in housing estates. Community effort.

This is where it has to start. Make everyone aware that small changes can make a difference.

An example I will give is a road margin on my farm.
I have about 500 metres of a roadside margin on a by road which ranges from about 1 to 2 metres wide. I get this flailed every third year, usually in January.
So 2 of my neighbours have taken it upon themselves to manicure the patches directly opposite their houses. One guy cuts his bit fortnightly or so and the other one sprays once or twice yearly with glyphosate.
Last summer myself and my OH said we would track what was growing in each patch one evening when out walking.
Glyphosate guy had mares tail and one other ground creeping unidentified plant.
Lawnmower guy had 3 types of grass that we could identify, daisies, white clover and some dandelions.
The patch that is unmanaged had 5 types of grasses, thistles, nettles, dandelions, 2 types of plantain, red and white clover, a few rushes, birds foot trefoil, hogweed, cow parsley some young furze and more. It was literally buzzing with bees.
The obsession with "tidyness" can be very detrimental. I'm no saint myself and occasionally have to use herbicides to control docks and rushes. But blaming farmers solely for loss of biodiversity is sometimes the easy option. I bought my farm, it needs to pay for itself at some stage and at the moment the only means of doing that is to make it as productive as possible. If I hadn't bought it, it would now be a conifer plantation.
Like a previous poster said, a look at the "Nature on your farm" thread would be a good place to start and shows that there are many of us that try our best to farm for and with nature.

magicbastarder · 13-02-2021 4:28pm

PoorFarmer wrote: »

The obsession with "tidyness" can be very detrimental.

i'm fond of repeating the line that one of the greatest examples of the 'to a man with a hammer...' maxim is a man armed with a container of roundup.

i live in the suburbs; a chap maintains the garden of our next door neighbour, and there is a thin skin of soil which has accumulated outside their garden wall, on the public footpath. instead of getting a spade and taking five minutes to just lift the soil, he sprays it with roundup every few months to kill off the stuff that's seeded in it.

Birdnuts · 13-02-2021 5:18pm

Car99 wrote: »

Biodiversity around the world is declining at a rate never before seen in the history of mankind. Every year we are losing never to be replaced species of plants, insects, mammals and birds . The threatened or endangered list grows year on year while the land, seas and atmosphere are being altered at an unprecedented rate. While we look abroad with dismay and alarm at how countries like Brazil continue to cause such damage to biodiversity is it time we start to get our own back yard in order before scolding other nations?
Are we any better than these developing countries when we plant lifeless pine forests and intensively farm using chemicals and pesticides all in the pursuit of financial gain for food which is mostly sent to export. Most of our countryside is green but barren, yes there are pockets of wildlife but not enough.
The subsidies paid to land owners should be targeted at improving biodiversity instead of getting another slurry producing slotted shed built , another tonne of grass out of an acre or getting an extra litre of milk a year out of a cow .
Biodiversity would benefit the nation as a whole far more than intensive agriculture or commercial forestry.

Biodiversity or Irelands natural flora and fauna is very rarely a topic in RTE's programming. It like no one cares unless it's a forest in the Amazon or a cute little animal the WWF are campaigning for.

Good article here from the BBC website about Ireland.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210211-rewilding-can-ireland-regrow-its-wilderness

Interesting article and highlights again the failure of state agencies as either being part of the problem or failing to do their job when it comes to biodiversity protection - what also stood out for me was the bizarre comments of the person from the IPCC who appears to be endorsing the building of windfarms on peatlands??

which obviously conflicts with their restoration as outlined by senior ecologists who work in the area as described in a link I posted here on another thread from a recent IT article on the matter

Edit: I will repost that link below as it is a good/informative read on the subject

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/bord-na-m%C3%B3na-s-big-shift-how-the-peat-giant-pivoted-to-bog-restoration-1.4438767?mode=amp&fbclid=IwAR0dn3x3PERlIm9Hyn4OmBo32DtMMbZLdGNgQM68aA8QS7LHxYhxiG7iEdE

Birdnuts · 13-02-2021 5:25pm

NcdJd wrote: »

Just one more thing to add I'll leave you in peace

There has been a massive opportunity missed in my opinion with the Bord Na Mona announcement stopping peat harvesting.

Whatever chance of restoring bogland and creating habits is now gone bar a couple of thousand acres for PR. As soon as the concrete starts pouring in for the wind and solar farms for the bulk of their land holdings, as part of the brown to green energy transition, the bogs are gone forever.

It's an absolute disgrace that this is allowed to happen and indicates the lack of any will within the state to do anything about it other than cover their arses on Ireland's green energy commitments.

I strongly agree with this in relation to the future of our peatlands and your other comments about people getting off their ar$es instead of just complaining about the situation - indeed any positive stuff being done for biodiverstity in this country is being done at grassroots level, whether by individual farmers or community groups etc. I also think certain so called environmental NGO's could do alot more in this area given their national profile, land bank and cash turnover.

gozunda · 13-02-2021 5:36pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

not going to go into it here, but i am involved in such a group.

i was talking on this topic on a different discussion forum a while back and crunched some numbers; should i ever win the lotto, i'd love to buy a few acres and establish a hazelnut farm. i was crunching some numbers, and it's quite impressive to see how much food you can get off it, say compared to beef.
i was reading that the average yield p.a. per Ha in ireland of beef is approx 450kg (assuming i was reading the figures right, but that's not a given), and the expected yield in a hazelnut farm in the SE of england would be 3.5-4 tons p.a. per Ha.
i know you're not comparing like with like there, but if you dropped the expected harvest to 2 tons per acre for ireland, that's still 4 times as much by weight - and hazelnuts have over twice the calorie content by weight as beef does.

and you can browse chickens under the hazel trees (better for the trees too) so have a grand supply of eggs; or browsing pigs, and pigs browsed under hazels would command a price premium anyway.

anyway, as said, just a lotto fuelled fantasy...

I would be fully supportive of new ideas in food production. Something I myself looked into. But yes it's been done here already

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklowpeople/lifestyle/farmer-gavin-goes-hazelnuts-in-donard-35123145.html

On production - the main issue is land and soil suitability. Whilst hazel will grow in most free draining soils- commercial Hazel nut production is best on an alkaline soil preferably with a limestone substrate. Its why areas like Kent were traditionally the main nut growing areas in the UK. Sadly Hazel nut production has declined hugely there. In Ireland - the most suitable land for commercial production are areas like Co. Clare and a limited number of other limestone areas. Unfortunately large proportion of our soils are not suitable.

Hazel nut production means a considerable wait until bushes are established and produce a first crop. That said like many areas of farming - a significant problem is the value of the crop produced has to compete with more cheaply produced imports.

A very good resource below. Sadly Ándi Wilson the owner of the website passed away unexpectedly in December.

http://www.fruitandnut.ie/cobnuts.html
http://www.fruitandnut.ie/grant.aid.html

Let me know if you win the lottery

Edit. Your hazel nut production figures seem somewhat high. The website above gives a more realistic figure imo for fertile ground of yields of 1.5-3 tonne per hectare. Lower figures for the first couple years of production as well. The big issue is rainfall and frosts which can have huge impacts on yields from year to year.

The beef production figure is also a little low. You could possibly get near double that on good grassland.

Beef production enterprises would also have a shorter income return time on investment

magicbastarder · 13-02-2021 6:45pm

gozunda wrote: »

Let me know if you win the lottery

if i ever win big in the euromillions, i'm going to find someone i don't know from adam - someone i've no link to whatsoever, and pay them €5m to pretend that *they're* the ones who won that jackpot. that way i don't have to deal with the begging letters, the kidnap threats, all the other hassle etc.
you'd need to give them enough to make it worth their while, and also enough to allow them to live a lifestyle someone who won the euromillions would enjoy.

NcdJd · 13-02-2021 8:56pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

if i ever win big in the euromillions, i'm going to find someone i don't know from adam - someone i've no link to whatsoever, and pay them €5m to pretend that *they're* the ones who won that jackpot. that way i don't have to deal with the begging letters, the kidnap threats, all the other hassle etc.
you'd need to give them enough to make it worth their while, and also enough to allow them to live a lifestyle someone who won the euromillions would enjoy.

I just wouldn't tell another soul. Keep working for a few months and quietly drop out if the rat race and grow your Hazel orchard. We'll all know who you are when we see you on Ear to the Ground talking to Ella

PoorFarmer · 14-02-2021 12:05am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm fond of repeating the line that one of the greatest examples of the 'to a man with a hammer...' maxim is a man armed with a container of roundup.

i live in the suburbs; a chap maintains the garden of our next door neighbour, and there is a thin skin of soil which has accumulated outside their garden wall, on the public footpath. instead of getting a spade and taking five minutes to just lift the soil, he sprays it with roundup every few months to kill off the stuff that's seeded in it.

This rots my socks.

You're dead right, a few minutes with a spade would trim up all the edges if that's what they want to achieve. Dead and dying vegetation looks much better sure. He probably "maintains" 50 more the same way.
Drive along any road in the countryside and there is at least 1 Monsanto guerrilla spraying the living 5hit out of their patch.

NcdJd · 14-02-2021 12:50am

PoorFarmer wrote: »

This rots my socks.

You're dead right, a few minutes with a spade would trim up all the edges if that's what they want to achieve. Dead and dying vegetation looks much better sure. He probably "maintains" 50 more the same way.
Drive along any road in the countryside and there is at least 1 Monsanto guerrilla spraying the living 5hit out of their patch.

Alot of people for some reason have no appreciation for the natural flora and fauna that grows naturally here. Same problem where I live. Drives me bonkers. As for using roundup in a garden, to me it's either ignorance or just plain laziness. It would do some people good to get their hands dirty every so often.

Another thing that gets me is having lights on all night. I switch both front and back off every night as I'm conscious we have owls and bats around. About a kilometer across the fields there's a house that has a huge fecking floodlight shining out all night long. Their house backs onto one of my neighbour's field. I'd love to go up and put a hammer through it. Although the same house cut down my neighbouring farmers hawthorn hedgerow along with the rest of the residents bounding the field as it was interfering with their view.

As Car99 said in the original post, people care more about what's happening in the Amazon.

magicbastarder · 14-02-2021 10:53am

gozunda wrote: »

A very good resource below. Sadly Ándi Wilson the owner of the website passed away unexpectedly in December.

http://www.fruitandnut.ie/cobnuts.html
http://www.fruitandnut.ie/grant.aid.html

FWIW, this is where i found some of the info when i went googling:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiP_tfqjOnuAhVLSxUIHSCkCK4QFjAPegQIJBAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.calu.bangor.ac.uk%2FTechnical%2520leaflets%2F050402Cobnutsandwalnuts.pdf&usg=AOvVaw35Ke6vRq_eQhXUyLsBkAyD

NcdJd · 14-02-2021 9:42pm

Out for a walk in a corn field that's left in stubble today ( corn cut but left idle ). Must have been nearly 30 yellow hammers in a flock. ( all yellow hammers ) There is still corn on the ground so they must be feeding on that.

Have been watching yellow hammers for the last few years and notice they are very localised and frequent any field that has barley or corn in it. They seem to follow the corn fields around if I could put it that way.

You may hear sometimes about cover crops over the winter, but they are not worth a toss to seed eating birds and only benefit pigeons and rabbits. Better to leave the field idle and let the birds forage what's left be it weed seeds or in this case corn.

Also saw a flock of about 100 lapwings, lovely to see them. They are frequenting a couple of spud fields that were harvested last year. The ground is fairly bare due to the harvester. There was alot of wire worm in some of these fields so maybe they are picking away the stragglers.

gozunda · 15-02-2021 1:22pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

FWIW, this is where i found some of the info when i went googling:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiP_tfqjOnuAhVLSxUIHSCkCK4QFjAPegQIJBAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.calu.bangor.ac.uk%2FTechnical%2520leaflets%2F050402Cobnutsandwalnuts.pdf&usg=AOvVaw35Ke6vRq_eQhXUyLsBkAyD

Thanks for that.

Two very good guides to commercial hazel nut cultivation - if you can get your hands on copies are
• The Nut Growers Handbook and a
• 1935 Ministry of Agriculture Fisheries and Food guide to the cultivation of Cobnuts and Filbert's.

kildare lad · 15-02-2021 4:01pm

As long as we continue to over populate the planet , biodiversity is gonna be less and less. Drive from Dublin to galway and all you'll see is farmers fields with nothing in them except the odd herd of cows , and you'll see the odd conifer plantation. My local forest has in fairness a variety of native trees but you'd walk through it in 15 mins . You'll also see plenty of bushes that look like Christmas trees with bags of dog ****e all over them .

Honestly very few people care about anything other than themselves. The government trying to push more carbon taxes and yet the OPW are destroying rivers all over Ireland by dredging them and cutting trees and hedges down turning them into glorified canals . Waterways Ireland can't let a bit of grass grow during the summer and they're out with the mowers . Now they wanna put cycle paths all along the canal for cyclists in the summer even though no locals want it. Can people not walk or cycle on grass anymore ???

Huge fishing quotas are emptying our oceans. Try fishing for mackerel during the summer and you'll see how much has changed compared to 30 years ago .

gozunda · 15-02-2021 6:29pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

Interesting article and highlights again the failure of state agencies as either being part of the problem or failing to do their job when it comes to biodiversity protection - what also stood out for me was the bizarre comments of the person from the IPCC who appears to be endorsing the building of windfarms on peatlands??:confused: which obviously conflicts with their restoration as outlined by senior ecologists who work in the area as described in a link I posted here on another thread from a recent IT article on the matter

Interesting article? - maybe. Factual no.

As you pointed out about the very real issues of Wind Powered Generators being built in bogs - much of what is in that article seems not to be based on reality. For example as a subheading - the article poses the question

"What would a truly wild Ireland look like?"

The article goes on to detail that "Ireland was once a wilderness of temperate rainforest and pristine bogs, where large carnivores and other beasts roamed. What would it take to restore Ireland to its wild state?"

Well that's not too difficult to answer tbf - a truely wild Ireland restored to it's wild state would be devoid of any human population or habitation.

Is that likley or even possible? - bar a mass human extinction event? The simple answer is no.

And whilst it is true that the island once had temperate forests and bogs - if is also true that immediately prior to that - Ireland was part of a vast ice and tundra landscape which spread all the way to the Urals. A landscape inhabited by Wooly Mammoths, Spotted Hyenas and Bears

It is a fact that before the last ice age had completely finished - Ireland was isolated from mainland Europe by rising sea levels. As a consequence Ireland now has fewer land animal and plant species than Great Britain or mainland Europe with just 26 current land mammal species out of a total number of 66 species being considered native.

And as a result, we now have a generally lower level of biodiversity compared to other countries.

As to the extinction of native species here - the greatest amount of extinction in Ireland happened in prehistory with extinct species including the Irish elk, brown bear, Mammoth which were all part of our prehistoric fauna.

These are the approx dates for a range of known extinctions

Brown bear 2500 yeas ago
The Irish elk 8000 years ago
Wooly Mammoth 15000 years ago

Other species include the spotted hyena and possibly the European Lynx - who existence here some 9000 years ago is postulated from a single thigh bone found in a cave in 1934.

Some more animals and invertebrates which went extinct more recently.

Wolf aporox 235 years ago

The Great Auk approx 150 years ago

Nomada sheppardana (a small bee) - only Irish record is from Lucane - 1902.

The Hornet Moth last sighted in Ireland - 1946

Mud pond snail - know from a singly colony discovered near New Ross, Co. Wexford in 1929 believed extinct - 1979.

Spiral Chalk-moss not been seen since 1870

The Mountain Ringlet not been recorded in Ireland since 1901.

Most of such extinctions did not take place in recent times.

The idea of "reintroducing" a species such as the European Lynx as possed in the article based on the finding of a single thigh bone dated to some 9000 years ago is frankly ludicrous and little better than some of the ideas of the fictitious Jurassic Park imho.

And yes I accept that we do have huge issues at present regarding rapid changes to the landscape and habitats - but I'll come back to that at another time.

Birdnuts · 16-02-2021 2:41am

gozunda wrote: »

Interesting article? - maybe. Factual no.

As you pointed out about the very real issues of Wind Powered Generators being built in bogs - much of what is in that article seems not to be based on reality. For example as a subheading - the article poses the question

"What would a truly wild Ireland look like?"

The article goes on to detail that "Ireland was once a wilderness of temperate rainforest and pristine bogs, where large carnivores and other beasts roamed. What would it take to restore Ireland to its wild state?"

Well that's not too difficult to answer tbf - a truely wild Ireland restored to it's wild state would be devoid of any human population or habitation.

Is that likley or even possible? - bar a mass human extinction event? The simple answer is no.

And whilst it is true that the island once had temperate forests and bogs - if is also true that immediately prior to that - Ireland was part of a vast ice and tundra landscape which spread all the way to the Urals. A landscape inhabited by Wooly Mammoths, Spotted Hyenas and Bears

It is a fact that before the last ice age had completely finished - Ireland was isolated from mainland Europe by rising sea levels. As a consequence Ireland now has fewer land animal and plant species than Great Britain or mainland Europe with just 26 current land mammal species out of a total number of 66 species being considered native.

And as a result, we now have a generally lower level of biodiversity compared to other countries.

As to the extinction of native species here - the greatest amount of extinction in Ireland happened in prehistory with extinct species including the Irish elk, brown bear, Mammoth which were all part of our prehistoric fauna.

These are the approx dates for a range of known extinctions

Brown bear 2500 yeas ago
The Irish elk 8000 years ago
Wooly Mammoth 15000 years ago

Other species include the spotted hyena and possibly the European Lynx - who existence here some 9000 years ago is postulated from a single thigh bone found in a cave in 1934.

Some more animals and invertebrates which went extinct more recently.

Wolf aporox 235 years ago

The Great Auk approx 150 years ago

Nomada sheppardana (a small bee) - only Irish record is from Lucane - 1902.

The Hornet Moth last sighted in Ireland - 1946

Mud pond snail - know from a singly colony discovered near New Ross, Co. Wexford in 1929 believed extinct - 1979.

Spiral Chalk-moss not been seen since 1870

The Mountain Ringlet not been recorded in Ireland since 1901.

Most of such extinctions did not take place in recent times.

The idea of "reintroducing" a species such as the European Lynx as possed in the article based on the finding of a single thigh bone dated to some 9000 years ago is frankly ludicrous and little better than some of the ideas of the fictitious Jurassic Park imho.

And yes I accept that we do have huge issues at present regarding rapid changes to the landscape and habitats - but I'll come back to that at another time.

I agree its not practical to even talk about bringing back the likes of Wolves or Bears any time soon. However the wetlands of the BNM bogs represent a fantastic opportunity to repair alot of the damage done to our wetlands since the major drainage acts of the 1840's to the industrial peat extraction of the 50's onwards which brought about the final demise of species like the Bittern and Marsh Harrier. Thats why I would like to see the rehabilitation efforts of BNM landholdings taken away from the the current management in the company and carried out at a community level with appropriate expertise from relevant NGOs and academia. The great work done on Bogs like Girley in Meath and Ballydangan in Galway illustrates the exciting potential this once in a lifetime opportunity offers if the government does the right thing for once in this space.

slipperyox · 16-02-2021 2:55am

NcdJd wrote: »

Out for a walk in a corn field that's left in stubble today ( corn cut but left idle ). Must have been nearly 30 yellow hammers in a flock. ( all yellow hammers ) There is still corn on the ground so they must be feeding on that.

Have been watching yellow hammers for the last few years and notice they are very localised and frequent any field that has barley or corn in it. They seem to follow the corn fields around if I could put it that way.

You may hear sometimes about cover crops over the winter, but they are not worth a toss to seed eating birds and only benefit pigeons and rabbits. Better to leave the field idle and let the birds forage what's left be it weed seeds or in this case corn.

Also saw a flock of about 100 lapwings, lovely to see them. They are frequenting a couple of spud fields that were harvested last year. The ground is fairly bare due to the harvester. There was alot of wire worm in some of these fields so maybe they are picking away the stragglers.

I regularly shoot rats in a nearby "cover crop" field (otherwise they will plague me). To be fair, the smaller linseed is working to minimise this, and attracting more mice, sparrows and finches of all types, hence kestrels and owls.
The barley is just rat food.

eeeee · 16-02-2021 3:37am

I think the general public need to take more responsibility here too. I was born and raised on a farm, still go home and farm regularly (pre covid, now on covid times just for dosing/ cleaning out sheds/ jobs my dad can't do on his own etc).
I always, always, always buy Irishand to the highest welfare standards where possible. I do this cos I understand what goes into growing and producing food, and the human and environmental cost of cheap food.
I live in the city, and the vast and overwhelming majority of my neighbours and friends buy the cheapest fruit/ veg/ meat and fish they can, whilst also bemoaning the state of Ireland environmentally. Even after explaining to them the environmental cost of cheap imports on Irish land, biodiversity and livelihoods, they're so divorced from production they really don't understand the affect of their choices (ever tinier margins for farmers/ producers, forcing more intensity and scale ans subsequent habitat/ biodiversity loss etc etc etc).
Price is often brought up as a reason. I lived below the poverty line until 2 years ago and managed it. You don't need to eat meat every day, and food waste is minimal if you plan.

I always think of our farm at home, on marginal land, economically unsuccessful but incredibly rich with biodiversity, old pasture, scrub, all maintained by dry stock. Ours is one of the last farms left in our area that hasn't been planted (spruce monoculture that's poisoned our wee steam). We've really really old hedgerows, acre fields, historical features like fairy forts, full fiachras, famine houses, a really mixed herbage (too many fcuking rushes :mad:) etc etc etc. None of that is supported by consumer buying habits. There's no premium for biodiversity.
People need to be way more aware of the affects their choices have if they're genuinely concerned about the environment. Going by what I see in my local supervalu, this concerns fcuk all people as they go about their weekly shop. That needs to change. Farmers are trying to make a living under the conditions ultimately we impose on them. It's not some away action taken out by an anonymous farming monolith.

PoorFarmer · 21-02-2021 9:06pm

Was planting a few bare root trees on the out farm this evening and got approached by one of the neighbours.
She's one of those keyboard warriors all over Twitter bitching and beaking about farmers cutting hedges, ruining the countryside etc.
So we're talking away for a few minutes asking what I'm doing so on and so forth. When I said I was planting a few trees for shelter, biodiversity and to break up the bland look of the place she started telling me that I cant put them near her house because they were never there before.
How do I win???

21-02-2021 9:10pm

^^^^ Because you're not #woke enough for her ?

Irelands Biodiversity failure .

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