Co-Living Developments

Responder XY · 15-01-2021 6:10pm #1

Don't see a thread on this already. On local facebook pages I'm seeing a lot of opposition to "Co-Living" developments sich as the one discussed in this article https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/co-living-scheme-planned-for-protected-modernist-building-in-dublin-1.4457458

Opposition clearly shared by a number of city council members and the Government who have banned such schemes in future (where they haven't already started the planning process)
I don't really understand why? Surely there is a place for good quality co-living schemes. I can easily imagine myself having lived in something like this after I first graduated in my first few years working in the city. It will never be a long term place to live for most (although it could suit single people of any age I'd expect), but I don't see a problem as long as certain minimum standards are met. It should provide good quality, affordable accommodation at the type of density our city needs in a country where such accommodation is in very short supply!
Any insight as to why so many are so intrinsically opposed to the very concept? It seems like a no brainer to me that this should be supported. What am I missing?

newmember2 · 15-01-2021 8:11pm

Responder XY wrote: »

Don't see a thread on this already. On local facebook pages I'm seeing a lot of opposition to "Co-Living" developments sich as the one discussed in this article https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/co-living-scheme-planned-for-protected-modernist-building-in-dublin-1.4457458

Opposition clearly shared by a number of city council members and the Government who have banned such schemes in future (where they haven't already started the planning process)
I don't really understand why? Surely there is a place for good quality co-living schemes. I can easily imagine myself having lived in something like this after I first graduated in my first few years working in the city. It will never be a long term place to live for most (although it could suit single people of any age I'd expect), but I don't see a problem as long as certain minimum standards are met. It should provide good quality, affordable accommodation at the type of density our city needs in a country where such accommodation is in very short supply!
Any insight as to why so many are so intrinsically opposed to the very concept? It seems like a no brainer to me that this should be supported. What am I missing?

It would probably work in some place that doesn't have a serious housing shortage.

Caranica · 15-01-2021 9:12pm

I did a lot of research on the one in Dun Laoghaire for a project.

Issues I remember (and there were lots more):

Rent expected to be close to 2k per month
All rooms single occupancy only
No parking
Kitchen to be shared by 30 something rooms
Room very small, expected to eat mostly in room
Next to no storage
Would have been a nightmare trying to wfh

Nothing about that is attractive to me.

punisher5112 · 15-01-2021 9:14pm

It's a very depressing way if it were allowed to be the future but they're definitely looking at flats or apartment as the way forward, get as many into one small place as possible, cheap labour and nobody will own anything....

whatnext · 15-01-2021 9:15pm

newmember? wrote: »

It would probably work in some place that doesn't have a serious housing shortage.

Are you aware that the people that generally live in co living schemes are predominantly fairly affluent. If they are not in a co living scheme they will be in a one or two bedroom apartment. It is a very efficient way of freeing up apartments. I’ve lived in co living spaces while working overseas. Internationally they are the preferred accommodation for single transient workers. Some people would move out of an apartment into such a scheme and guess what they don’t demolish their previous accommodation.

You will often see the arguments about the shared kitchen space, but the reality is the kitchens get very little use. I’d say I witnessed less than a dozen meals cooked in all my time in co living (about 14 months all in). And that has nothing to do with the quality of the kitchens and everything to do with the demographics of the people that lived there. The eat at work, eat out a the weekend and devour takeout in between. For most preparing a meal extends to a frozen pizza or cereal and milk.

A co living scheme accommodating 100 people will mean there are 100 apartments available for someone else.

L1011 · 15-01-2021 9:16pm

They're basically modern bedsits, with ensuites and communal kitchens / rec areas (there may be a micro-kitchen in room); but priced like larger apartments for whatever reason.

There needs to be a replacement for bedsits for those who really can't handle shared houses; but this isn't it.

Responder XY · 15-01-2021 9:16pm

newmember? wrote: »

It would probably work in some place that doesn't have a serious housing shortage.

What's the logic behind that? If this helps create more housing does it not help places with a serious housing shortage.

Caranica wrote: »

I did a lot of research on the one in Dun Laoghaire for a project.

Issues I remember (and there were lots more):

Rent expected to be close to 2k per month
All rooms single occupancy only
No parking
Kitchen to be shared by 30 something rooms
Room very small, expected to eat mostly in room
Next to no storage
Would have been a nightmare trying to wfh

Nothing about that is attractive to me.

Doubt that sounds attractive to anyone, but that's an argument for minimum standards, not one against the concept altogether.

whatnext · 15-01-2021 9:18pm

Caranica wrote: »

I did a lot of research on the one in Dun Laoghaire for a project.

Issues I remember (and there were lots more):

Rent expected to be close to 2k per month
All rooms single occupancy only
No parking
Kitchen to be shared by 30 something rooms
Room very small, expected to eat mostly in room
Next to no storage
Would have been a nightmare trying to wfh

Nothing about that is attractive to me.

They are aimed at a specific demographic and a limited demographic at that. I still believe there is a market for in or around 10,000 such bed units in Dublin.

senordingdong · 15-01-2021 9:19pm

They should be let go ahead, and if they are so undesirable, then no one will move into them and they will fail.
If people do move into them, the it will free up the space they previously occupied.

senordingdong · 15-01-2021 9:21pm

Caranica wrote: »

I did a lot of research on the one in Dun Laoghaire for a project.

Issues I remember (and there were lots more):

Rent expected to be close to 2k per month
All rooms single occupancy only
No parking
Kitchen to be shared by 30 something rooms
Room very small, expected to eat mostly in room
Next to no storage
Would have been a nightmare trying to wfh

Nothing about that is attractive to me.

Alot of people living in the city don't need parking, storage space, a spare room or a kitchen, but in some instances are paying for it.

whatnext · 15-01-2021 9:22pm

L1011 wrote: »

They're basically modern bedsits, with ensuites and communal kitchens / rec areas (there may be a micro-kitchen in room); but priced like larger apartments for whatever reason.

There needs to be a replacement for bedsits for those who really can't handle shared houses; but this isn't it.

They are nothing like bedsits. Far closer to a hotel. The places I stayed in had a cinema room, group activities / organised clubs, a gym, security / concierge and a cleaner.

Mrs OBumble · 15-01-2021 9:27pm

Responder XY wrote: »

Any insight as to why so many are so intrinsically opposed to the very concept? It seems like a no brainer to me that this should be supported. What am I missing?

Middle class lovlies cannot wrap their head around the fact that not everyone wants to live the way they do.

Heebie · 15-01-2021 9:31pm

whatnext wrote:

They are nothing like bedsits. Far closer to a hotel. The places I stayed in had a cinema room, group activities / organised clubs, a gym, security / concierge and a cleaner.

A fancy bedsit, is still a bedsit.

punisher5112 · 15-01-2021 9:36pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Middle class lovlies cannot wrap their head around the fact that not everyone wants to live the way they do.

I sure as hell wouldn't think many would like to be sharing a kitchen with 30 others, it's hard enough with just the family.....

senordingdong · 15-01-2021 9:39pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

I sure as hell wouldn't think many would like to be sharing a kitchen with 30 others, it's hard enough with just the family.....

As has been repeated countless times since this debacle started, the demographic of these developments have little or no need for a kitchen.

punisher5112 · 15-01-2021 9:40pm

senordingdong wrote: »

As has been repeated countless times since this debacle started, the demographic of these developments have little or no need for a kitchen.

How, does the one in fun laoghaire have kitchen in rooms?

I think they are a terrible idea unless it is the case they're extremely cheap to live in which they aren't.

0lddog · 15-01-2021 9:41pm

whatnext wrote: »

They are nothing like bedsits. Far closer to a hotel. The places I stayed in had a cinema room, group activities / organised clubs, a gym, security / concierge and a cleaner.

Do nphet know about this ?

Do tenants have to pay rent when these places are closed down for reasons of publuc health ?

noodler · 15-01-2021 9:42pm

They should be stopped immediately.

A dangerous race to the bottom

Del2005 · 15-01-2021 9:45pm

Heebie wrote: »

A fancy bedsit, is still a bedsit.

And how is a room in a house full of strangers any different?

A bed in a building with a cinema, gym sounds better than a bed in someone else's home.

punisher5112 · 15-01-2021 9:48pm

Del2005 wrote: »

And how is a room in a house full of strangers any different?

A bed in a building with a cinema, gym sounds better than a bed in someone else's home.

In some cases yes, but is any developments like that here?

deandean · 15-01-2021 9:52pm

Expected cost nearly €2k per month? In Dun Laoghaire? &#55357;&#56881;&#55357;&#56881;
I don't see who will pay this. You can get a nice room in a house share for about €600pm in this area.

Caranica · 15-01-2021 9:55pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

How, does the one in fun laoghaire have kitchen in rooms?

I think they are a terrible idea unless it is the case they're extremely cheap to live in which they aren't.

Kettle and toaster. Was supposed to have a microwave but there were fire concerns so they were removed iirc (this may have been 2 ring hob - if so microwaves retained).

deandean wrote: »

Expected cost nearly €2k per month? In Dun Laoghaire? ��
I don't see who will pay this. You can get a nice room in a house share for about €600pm in this area.

Aimed at people coming in from overseas on 3-6 month contract to the likes of Microsoft apparently

L1011 · 15-01-2021 9:57pm

whatnext wrote: »

They are nothing like bedsits. Far closer to a hotel. The places I stayed in had a cinema room, group activities / organised clubs, a gym, security / concierge and a cleaner.

They're a single (occupancy) bed in a single room with a micro-kitchen and an ensuite. That's basically a bedsit; just because its decorated nicer with better furniture doesn't change it.

Cinema room, group activities etc makes it sound more like a prison than a hotel.

If they're being built to target short term rental markets they absolutely and utterly should not qualify for SHD protection as they are not an urgent requirement like conventional housing. Let them use normal planning.

SEPT 23 1989 · 15-01-2021 10:09pm

These developments were conceived and funded with a pre Covid view of the working world

All they will be fit for now is revised direct provision settings

Mrs OBumble · 15-01-2021 10:22pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

I sure as hell wouldn't think many would like to be sharing a kitchen with 30 others, it's hard enough with just the family.....

Thank you for providing a great example of the point I am making.

To spell it out: Not Everyone Cooks.

noodler · 15-01-2021 10:40pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Thank you for providing a great example of the point I am making.

To spell it out: Not Everyone Cooks.

So..if just half of the 30 cook.....then it's way worse than sharing a kitchen with your family?

What's your point?

TheSheriff · 15-01-2021 11:08pm

deandean wrote: »

Expected cost nearly €2k per month? In Dun Laoghaire? ��
I don't see who will pay this. You can get a nice room in a house share for about €600pm in this area.

If you've ever moved cities for work, this kind of set up would be ideal.

I've moved for a 3 month period for work before and I would have been delighted with a co-living development.

GT89 · 16-01-2021 1:33am

Modern day tenaments

punisher5112 · 16-01-2021 2:21am

I actually know one of the last people to have lived in a tenament.....

What utter sh1t do people need to be treated as....

Why bother working when one can have kid after kid after kid and get paid, fuel allowance, back to school, hap or free housing altogether, medical, scratcher payment etc etc etc.....

Mad_maxx · 16-01-2021 3:47pm

senordingdong wrote: »

They should be let go ahead, and if they are so undesirable, then no one will move into them and they will fail.
If people do move into them, the it will free up the space they previously occupied.

and let the people decide ?

thats not the left wing way

endofrainbow · 16-01-2021 4:44pm

I personally know of one such development which is a large multi bedroomed house converted into a co-living arrangement.

It has a large kitchen, no living area, 1 bathroom per 2 rooms. They're paying top dollar and described it as living in a glorified hostel.

Responder XY · 18-01-2021 1:39pm

So seems like the assumption of those who oppose is that they can't be anything but a tenement/glorified bedsit (which is assumed to always be a bad thing)

If there are minimum standards applied (as would exist due to building standards and in any tenancy arrangement currently) - then I don't think those concerns would be valid and in my view it's a real shame these are being opposed. Younger me would very likely have opted for something like this for a few years for sure!

thegetawaycar · 18-01-2021 2:01pm

Once they were done with proper standards in place Co-Living option is definitely a good thing.
The problem is that the ones building/renting these out do so at ridiculous prices. It should be no more expensive than a rent a room option.

In theory:
Lot's of people that house share have the option of doing so in Co-Living and the house can be used for families.
It gets more people at a cheaper price in close proximity to where they work/business hubs
A younger cohort get access to an area they couldn't afford on their own

JimmyVik · 18-01-2021 3:58pm

senordingdong wrote: »

They should be let go ahead, and if they are so undesirable, then no one will move into them and they will fail.
If people do move into them, the it will free up the space they previously occupied.

I lived in some of these type places in Japan. They are ok for a week but any longer would drive you mad.

In the Irish situation though, I see them all becoming hostels rented from the developer by the state.
One you get a critical mass of hostel type guests noone else will want to live in them so then it will be just the state renting them fully like this.

WoollyRedHat · 27-04-2021 8:41pm

Anyone have a list of of current co living developments in capital and Ireland?

Baby01032012 · 27-04-2021 9:34pm

Google would have been quicker for ya than asking the question here...

https://coliving.com/dublin

FromADistance · 27-04-2021 9:44pm

Once upon a time, up until 4 years ago, I lived on my own, in a quasi bedsit (less than 25 sq m, seperate bedroom) and ate breakfast and lunch in the canteen at work. After work I drank many pints... For the privilege I paid about 600eur a month in a lovely part of Dublin less than a mile from the Royal Canal.

The point I'm making is that co-living, as it stands, is a complete obscenity.

WoollyRedHat · 27-04-2021 9:55pm

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Google would have been quicker for ya than asking the question here...

https://coliving.com/dublin

I tried that, the search filter for Dublin isn't functional unless I'm missing something.

WoollyRedHat · 27-04-2021 10:04pm

FromADistance wrote: »

Once upon a time, up until 4 years ago, I lived on my own, in a quasi bedsit (less than 25 sq m, seperate bedroom) and ate breakfast and lunch in the canteen at work. After work I drank many pints... For the privilege I paid about 600eur a month in a lovely part of Dublin less than a mile from the Royal Canal.

The point I'm making is that co-living, as it stands, is a complete obscenity.

From looking online, from stock that is currently available ( I make it three) I'd tend to agree, cheapest going rate with LiveX seems to be €900, then there's Node with cheapest offering at €1,300 pp, which is quite expensive.

C14N · 28-04-2021 12:02am

I don't get the opposition either. I'm aware they have been "banned" now, although any that got permission before the ban are allowed to go ahead anyway. I don't see the point in the ban really. Seems to me that if they are so terrible, people won't stay in them. As bad as the housing market is right now for rentals, for the price they're usually advertised at, you really won't have a hard time finding alternatives in Dublin. I'd have no interest in them in my current situation, but I could see the appeal as a short-term option if I was a single person working or studying in a new city where I didn't know anybody to share with. Certainly, I'd prefer it to living with 3 complete strangers in a family home in the suburbs.

Seems like some people just can't fathom different lifestyles or wants to their own. Every time these is discussed everyone just calls them tenements as if the expected audience is an impoverished family of 5 getting crammed into a 1-bedroom unit without a kitchen, rather than a young professional or student who doesn't really care about needing to cook and is happy to eat out in the city. I knew plenty in college who had an oven in their apartment or campus accomodation that was never used for more than a frozen pizza, and even years later I still know single adults who wouldn't even use their cooker on a weekly basis.

Graces7 · 28-04-2021 10:14am

punisher5112 wrote: »

In some cases yes, but is any developments like that here?

Have a look at Abode Co Living Killarney.

Graces7 · 28-04-2021 10:26am

C14N wrote: »

I don't get the opposition either. I'm aware they have been "banned" now, although any that got permission before the ban are allowed to go ahead anyway. I don't see the point in the ban really. Seems to me that if they are so terrible, people won't stay in them. As bad as the housing market is right now for rentals, for the price they're usually advertised at, you really won't have a hard time finding alternatives in Dublin. I'd have no interest in them in my current situation, but I could see the appeal as a short-term option if I was a single person working or studying in a new city where I didn't know anybody to share with. Certainly, I'd prefer it to living with 3 complete strangers in a family home in the suburbs.

Seems like some people just can't fathom different lifestyles or wants to their own. Every time these is discussed everyone just calls them tenements as if the expected audience is an impoverished family of 5 getting crammed into a 1-bedroom unit without a kitchen, rather than a young professional or student who doesn't really care about needing to cook and is happy to eat out in the city. I knew plenty in college who had an oven in their apartment or campus accomodation that was never used for more than a frozen pizza, and even years later I still know single adults who wouldn't even use their cooker on a weekly basis.

Excellent response. In past threads I have been told just that; then I mentioned the Abode Co Living in Killarney ..

( sorry; cannot post links ) cost is reasonable. see separate page_
a
It is personal choice.

C14N · 28-04-2021 11:36am

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Excellent response. In past threads I have been told just that; then I mentioned the Abode Co Living in Killarney ..

( sorry; cannot post links ) cost is reasonable. see separate page_
a
It is personal choice.

I can't see any prices on their website, but the place looks reasonably nice. The ones I have seen in Dublin have generally been priced lower than a 1-bedroom apartment though, but generally higher than a room in a shared house. Normally somewhere in the range of €900-1300.

What I will say is that in my first year of uni, I stayed in digs in a big old house with 3 other students, that probably wasn't a million miles off that in terms of pricing adjusted for inflation. I got a decent sized bedroom, but I didn't have access to any kitchen facilities (dinner was provided, but I couldn't keep my own food in the kitchen or have any appliances in my room), the bathroom was shared, and the place was freezing in winter. I also didn't have any access to it at the weekend. I could have one friend visit at a time, but no overnight stays. It wasn't great but I didn't feel hard done by for staying there, because it worked for me at the time and I was happy just to be able to live close to the university instead of spending 3-4 hours on public transport each day getting in and out of Dublin.

If I could have taken one of these co-living things instead, I probably would have jumped at the opportunity. They're far more appealing and beneficial in comparison. More privacy, more facilities, more freedom to come and go as you want, etc. I'd probably even take one over sharing a campus accomodation with 3-4 strangers who were almost certainly going to be pretty messy. But nobody ever wants to ban the "inhumane" living conditions of digs, or student residences, or house-shares which really have all of the same downsides. Presumably because it's intrinsically understood that the people living there are not looking for the same thing, but for some reason, that understanding does not extend to these.

Claw Hammer · 28-04-2021 12:02pm

C14N wrote: »

. But nobody ever wants to ban the "inhumane" living conditions of digs, or student residences, or house-shares which really have all of the same downsides. Presumably because it's intrinsically understood that the people living there are not looking for the same thing, but for some reason, that understanding does not extend to these.

There are standards for house-shares. Digs are very much a minority area where someone is accommodated in the owners home.
The big difference is that at some point the house share is in a house which can be occupied at some point by a family. The big co-living schemes are buildings constructed for such which don't lend themselves to re-purposing.

C14N · 28-04-2021 1:05pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There are standards for house-shares. Digs are very much a minority area where someone is accommodated in the owners home.
The big difference is that at some point the house share is in a house which can be occupied at some point by a family. The big co-living schemes are buildings constructed for such which don't lend themselves to re-purposing.

There are standards for co-living too, this isn't some kind of unregulated wild west market. They're obviously different, but they exist, and I'd say they're probably more regulated than house-share situations, which in my experience basically always operate on an informal honour system. If they're currently insufficient to provide for the safety of people living in them, then it would seem that the most logical solution should be to improve the standards, not ban the whole thing. Digs might be a minority, but so is co-living, so I don't really see your point.

Why do they need to be repurposed at some point? Is there some deadline we have where we will run out of young or single people who don't need or want a full house to raise a family in?

At any given point in time, a very large portion of the population are not living as a nuclear family unit, especially in urban areas. So why should every single dwelling have to be built specifically to accomodate a nuclear family?

Graces7 · 29-04-2021 4:09am

C14N wrote: »

I can't see any prices on their website, but the place looks reasonably nice. The ones I have seen in Dublin have generally been priced lower than a 1-bedroom apartment though, but generally higher than a room in a shared house. Normally somewhere in the range of €900-1300.

google it? I was surprised at how little it costs.

Co-Living Developments

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