managers cognitive issues

LegacyUser · 20-12-2020 2:19pm #1

A year ago my old manager moved to a new job, she re-wrote her job description removing large parts of it and recommended her friend who had worked for the company for decades.

My old manager started dumping parts of her work load on to me before she left. I am two grades below my manager, I raised this at the time but was shot down repeatedly. Long story short I did some of the work but got fed up with how far I was being pushed without support and acknowledgement so I went to human resources and when they kicked it into the long grass I went to the Union. Management have met with me but they are still delaying things and made me write an essay on what I have done and then probably want to set up a new meeting to argue about whether they think it is outside of my grade or not. (I know it is as I have spoken to several other managers in other departments with the same role about what work they do and their employees do).

My new manager is forgetful, she will ask me to send her the same thing three times. She went though a stage of misspelling words differently in her emails, making up words. She has failed to engage with the work properly, she doesn't read the guidance for the projects we are working on or instructions, this is evident when it comes to her doing checks, she is childish in the way she speaks to me and has made me feel that she has been taking the piss out of me in an immature way. If I talk to her about work there is a lack of recognition in her eyes. She is failing to do bits of work and other people have had to take over. She writes down quite a lot of what I say in meetings with her even things which are unimportant. I saw a video of her interviewing someone with simple questions and she had to refer constantly to notes for very basic questions that others could remember. This stuff should be easy for her, she was quite successful in her previous position and achieved a high academic qualification and she has been in the job for 9 months, someone in the role that she has now which is a non-specialist role would have no problem being fully up and running after 3 months at the most yet she has struggled.

In short I think she has a developing cognitive issue and that upper management are being hostile to me as they already know this but wanted to give her an upgrade and more money before she retires because of her long service in the company. She is 54. (The other week she went to a retirement financial planning course).

Can I tell the union? Can I go to my line managers boss (he knows what is going on and is protecting her) and express concerns that she needs help and support?

Diceicle · 20-12-2020 8:15pm

You have a couple of potential options but whatever way you play it I would keep it 'helpful' in tone and forget about the words 'cognitive decline' - you'll just get told you're not qualified to make that judgement.

The Union can only help you with the re-balancing of workload towards your substantive grade.
Your best option may be the line-manager - try to frame it in how you can help your manager meet her targets/performance levels - and look for an upgrade or allowance for taking on extra responsibilities for doing so.

If you do end up going to the union or higher-ups with a complaint - stick to framing your complaint in terms of your line-managers under-performance and or ineffectiveness. Don't tell them you think she's going senile. If they are looking out for her and boosting her package towards an impending exit - then she's obviously built up some clout. Clout you may or may not be able to match.

Mrs OBumble · 20-12-2020 10:26pm

What do you want to achieve?

Fairness in the universe - forget it, doesn't exist.

To get the manager's job when the current incumbent retires? Use the golden opportunity you have been given to be super helpful and learn the job - but don't forget to learn and play the politics so that you get your reward when the time comes.

To get a different manager? Sit back and wait, do your job, and document asking her for help with the bits that are too hard for you. But don't expect to get any promotions, or thanks.

A good reference to help you find a better job elsewhere? Focus on your relationship with her, so she'll say nice things about you at the right time.

Whatever your goal is, forget about how other manager's organise their departments. One school of thought says that an effective manager does very little of the work themselves: instead they inspire, communicate, delegate and coach - ie get stuff done, rather than doing it.

LegacyUser · 20-12-2020 10:56pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

What do you want to achieve?

Fairness in the universe - forget it, doesn't exist.

To get the manager's job when the current incumbent retires? Use the golden opportunity you have been given to be super helpful and learn the job - but don't forget to learn and play the politics so that you get your reward when the time comes.

To get a different manager? Sit back and wait, do your job, and document asking her for help with the bits that are too hard for you. But don't expect to get any promotions, or thanks.

A good reference to help you find a better job elsewhere? Focus on your relationship with her, so she'll say nice things about you at the right time.

Whatever your goal is, forget about how other manager's organise their departments. One school of thought says that an effective manager does very little of the work themselves: instead they inspire, communicate, delegate and coach - ie get stuff done, rather than doing it.

I'm not an ambitious person. I attend formal training courses. When it is time to progress I prepare and apply for positions. I have been stressed out of my mind taking on this extra work which has disrupted my annual leave and free time. No I never wanted the extra work, nor do I want to 'climb the ladder' abruptly and certainly not due to being unknowingly forced to be a 'reasonable support' for someone with difficulties without support or training for myself. There were no handover notes given to me by my old boss nor was I approached formally or professionally about taking on this extra work which is unusual in the place I work. They can't provide me with support as they would have to acknowledge that she has a problem. One of the reasons I went to h.r. is they refused to give me objectives or tell me what I should be doing until the 11th hour and it was becoming humanly impossible for me to do all of the work even if I had Machiavellian designs and worked evenings and throughout the weekend on rocket fuel coffee.

Get a good reference from her. Are you joking? She has difficulty writing emails and making sense of my area of work, what kind of reference do you think I will get? especially now that h.r. have contacted her telling to tell her I've gone to the union. She's not at the match and it will only get worse.

I would like the work I have already done to be acknowledged. I would like the Union to see the full picture here as I think they would be more supportive if they knew what the reason for the change in my work load was but I don't know if I can tell them what I suspect as I know you can't talk about private issues for gdpr reasons etc.,

I'd also really like to change my line management to someone else as meetings with her are unproductive, stressful and unpredictable.

As for your last comment. Don't worry I understand exactly what a manager does. If you are referring to me, I am in a low position so I can't delegate. If you are referring to her, this level of delegation is not normal, if she was working in her role in another department she would be in a disciplinary for failing to do her job. This is beyond the pale of normal management.

Misguided1 · 21-12-2020 3:39pm

This year has been unbelievably stressful for everyone and has affected everyone in different ways. You have no idea what pressures are on your manager and the timeframe that you mention coincides with the pandemic. You may be right with your assumption but you may be completely wrong so tread with caution, whatever you do.

I'd suggest trying to support her as best you can. If you genuinely believe that she is some sort of cognitive decline, then perhaps a confidential conversation with HR to share your concerns and leave it with them to deal with. But don't expect a follow up as they won't be able to discuss anything with you. If the company does know that there is a medical issue - once they become aware that it may be noticeable to staff, they will react appropriately.

MarkR · 21-12-2020 3:46pm

Your concern is you, and your role. If you feel your role has been added to unfairly, you can request a review, which it sounds like you've done. If you have issues with your managers work, and it is affecting you (little point in flagging you've been asked multiple times for the same thing, or highlighting spelling errors).

If you need more help to do your role, request it, giving your reasons. Any supposition about cognitive decline outside of your own head sounds like a terrible idea.

Role wise, I would root out your original job spec, highlight where you are exceeding it, and note down any additional duties you have had to take over since the new boss.

LegacyUser · 21-12-2020 7:44pm

Misguided1 wrote: »

This year has been unbelievably stressful for everyone and has affected everyone in different ways. You have no idea what pressures are on your manager and the timeframe that you mention coincides with the pandemic. You may be right with your assumption but you may be completely wrong so tread with caution, whatever you do.

I'd suggest trying to support her as best you can. If you genuinely believe that she is some sort of cognitive decline, then perhaps a confidential conversation with HR to share your concerns and leave it with them to deal with. But don't expect a follow up as they won't be able to discuss anything with you. If the company does know that there is a medical issue - once they become aware that it may be noticeable to staff, they will react appropriately.

No my old manager re-wrote the job description and had meetings with my new manager before interview. This pre-dates covid.

No I'm not qualified to support someone with these difficulties and meeting with her on a weekly basis has been demotivating for me as she is the only person in work I speak to most weeks. I know this sounds harsh to others, but it looks like they knew about the decline and opted to promote her so she could get more money but taking her out of an environment and a job that she was familiar with is in my opinion an unkindness and has caused obvious distress. I'm not responsible for that. They should have pre-empted the situation, they refused.

LegacyUser · 21-12-2020 7:47pm

MarkR wrote: »

Your concern is you, and your role. If you feel your role has been added to unfairly, you can request a review, which it sounds like you've done. If you have issues with your managers work, and it is affecting you (little point in flagging you've been asked multiple times for the same thing, or highlighting spelling errors).

If you need more help to do your role, request it, giving your reasons. Any supposition about cognitive decline outside of your own head sounds like a terrible idea.

Role wise, I would root out your original job spec, highlight where you are exceeding it, and note down any additional duties you have had to take over since the new boss.

It's more than a few spelling mistakes, we all make spelling mistakes.

I can't ask for more help as that is pointing out that something is wrong, also the people outside of our department keep deferring to her whenever I ask for help as they are not in on what is happening here. My hands are well and truly tied.

I've already been over my job description with them on several occasions and I'm done now.

That is not my question.

beauf · 22-12-2020 2:44pm

Personally I would move laterally to another team where the role suits you better. Say nothing.

The alternative is take over your manager's jobs so when they leave you are the perfect replacement. Unless of course you think they will just bypass you and parachute someone else in. In which case option 1 is a better choice.

Your manager's problems should be obvious to her peers in their meetings. If they haven't taken action anything you do or say isn't going to change that. It will just make you look bad.

LegacyUser · 22-12-2020 4:02pm

beauf wrote: »

Personally I would move laterally to another team where the role suits you better. Say nothing.

The alternative is take over your manager's jobs so when they leave you are the perfect replacement. Unless of course you think they will just bypass you and parachute someone else in. In which case option 1 is a better choice.

Your manager's problems should be obvious to her peers in their meetings. If they haven't taken action anything you do or say isn't going to change that. It will just make you look bad.

Op here. I can't move laterally, the jobs are exactly the same it would look strange and they would be well aware that there was a problem but wouldn't know whether I was the problem or not.

I can't take my manager's job, she has a qualification I don't have and is two grades above me.

Their not taking action is the issue here.

beauf · 23-12-2020 6:52pm

anonymouse8889 wrote: »

Op here. I can't move laterally, the jobs are exactly the same it would look strange and they would be well aware that there was a problem but wouldn't know whether I was the problem or not.

I can't take my manager's job, she has a qualification I don't have and is two grades above me.

Their not taking action is the issue here.

Seems like you're ruling out all the options except them doing something with the manager. Which they won't.

I guess you could just get another job somewhere else if you are that unhappy.

HildaOgdenx · 23-12-2020 8:44pm

anonymouse8889 wrote: »

Op here. I can't move laterally, the jobs are exactly the same it would look strange and they would be well aware that there was a problem but wouldn't know whether I was the problem or not.

I can't take my manager's job, she has a qualification I don't have and is two grades above me.

Their not taking action is the issue here.

I wouldn't rule out moving laterally, if it is an option. I know it's a difficult situation, and it seems like you're hitting your head off a brick wall, in terms of getting anyone to listen.

It's known, at some level anyway that there is a problem. If you do move, and the same issues arise with her, and a new staff member, it will show who the issue is with.
Too late for you, but at least you would be out of the present situation.

LegacyUser · 23-12-2020 11:01pm

beauf wrote: »

Seems like you're ruling out all the options except them doing something with the manager. Which they won't.

I guess you could just get another job somewhere else if you are that unhappy.

I have already asked that another manager conducts my annual review and that has been accepted.

My question primarily is whether I can discuss this with the union and if I should approach my line manager's boss to discuss my concern that she is struggling.

LegacyUser · 23-12-2020 11:07pm

HildaOgdenx wrote: »

I wouldn't rule out moving laterally, if it is an option. I know it's a difficult situation, and it seems like you're hitting your head off a brick wall, in terms of getting anyone to listen.

It's known, at some level anyway that there is a problem. If you do move, and the same issues arise with her, and a new staff member, it will show who the issue is with.
Too late for you, but at least you would be out of the present situation.

I've thought about it. The difficulty is explaining in a job interview the reason why I would want the job. We preform the same function so it wouldn't be normal to move side ways as there wouldn't be enough of a difference in the job descriptions to explain the move. Managers in other departments wouldn't know what is happening in my department with my manager. Other than that there aren't many jobs now at any rate due to the.... well you know.

Mrs OBumble · 28-12-2020 5:45pm

anonymouse8888 wrote: »

I have already asked that another manager conducts my annual review and that has been accepted.

My question primarily is whether I can discuss this with the union and if I should approach my line manager's boss to discuss my concern that she is struggling.

You can discuss anything with the union.

With your manager's manager, limit the discussion to observable facts (X did not reply to whatever), do not bring up your theories about why it's happening. Also, do not expect them to give you any information about what's actually going on.

Maybe she is being looked after on the way to retirement. Maybe she is on a PIP (remember that if she is, the employer has to do everything reasonable to help her succeed). Maybe she developed an illness just after getting the job, and they know about it and are being sympathetic.

LegacyUser · 28-12-2020 8:20pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You can discuss anything with the union.

With your manager's manager, limit the discussion to observable facts (X did not reply to whatever), do not bring up your theories about why it's happening. Also, do not expect them to give you any information about what's actually going on.

Maybe she is being looked after on the way to retirement. Maybe she is on a PIP (remember that if she is, the employer has to do everything reasonable to help her succeed). Maybe she developed an illness just after getting the job, and they know about it and are being sympathetic.

Thanks I think I will discount talking to my managers manager he is doing everything he can to cover his ass. The less I talk to him the better.

I strongly suspect they knew about the condition before she got the job. She is a friend of my old boss and met with her a few times before the interviews, they adapted the job description, paired it down and stream lined it to suit her. In addition they shifted the access work onto me before the interviews took place. The job was externally advertised but they only interviewed two internal candidates. The writing was on the wall before the role was advertised.

I'll give some more thought to approaching the union about this, I'm not sure what their take will be. I hold no ill towards my manager but I think management have handled this clumsily and put me in a difficult spot. I'm not qualified to deal with this kind of issue.

beauf · 30-12-2020 12:47pm

You seem to be determined to go down the route of most conflict, and least likely to have a satisfactory outcome for you.

That is of course my opinion and I could be wrong.

LegacyUser · 30-12-2020 5:47pm

beauf wrote: »

You seem to be determined to go down the route of most conflict, and least likely to have a satisfactory outcome for you.

That is of course my opinion and I could be wrong.

My take is different, I see them as the ones who are determined to cause conflict. They had an opportunity to approach me professionally about the changes and make an offer. In fact they have had several opportunities now to make amends but instead they chose to exploit me and take advantage of my good will towards the department. I've been put under stress which has effected my health. Equal work for equal pay is something I've always believed in. If the outcome is not satisfactory at least I will know I did all I could.

LegacyUser · 30-12-2020 5:52pm

beauf wrote: »

You seem to be determined to go down the route of most conflict, and least likely to have a satisfactory outcome for you.

That is of course my opinion and I could be wrong.

In addition they curated a job description with one candidate in mind and placed that candidate in a favourable position for a job which discriminates against other candidates, impossible to prove but as far as my understanding it is illegal to do this.

beauf · 01-01-2021 1:25pm

anonymouse8888 wrote: »

My take is different, I see them as the ones who are determined to cause conflict. .....

I'm not disagreeing with that..

I'm simply saying you can choose the easy route or the hard route moving forward. Which is usually to bypass a mountain than trying to stubbornly trying to go through the mountain head first.

Mrs OBumble · 01-01-2021 10:32pm

anonymouse8888 wrote: »

In addition they curated a job description with one candidate in mind and placed that candidate in a favourable position for a job which discriminates against other candidates, impossible to prove but as far as my understanding it is illegal to do this.

You are wrong - unless it is a public sector job.

beauf · 01-01-2021 10:46pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You are wrong - unless it is a public sector job.

Happens in all sectors.

Mrs OBumble · 02-01-2021 12:55pm

beauf wrote: »

Happens in all sectors.

Agreed.

But I'm pretty sure that it's illegal in the public sector.

(Shocker .. illegal study happens!)

The OP really needs to figure out what they want to happen going forward, acknowledging that the manager going away isn't a likely option.

beauf · 02-01-2021 1:27pm

My experience of the public sector is that it's pretty normal.

rock22 · 02-01-2021 2:17pm

anonymouse8888 wrote: »

....

I'll give some more thought to approaching the union about this, I'm not sure what their take will be. I hold no ill towards my manager but I think management have handled this clumsily and put me in a difficult spot. I'm not qualified to deal with this kind of issue.

While you can approach your union, you will need to spell out to them what you want them to do for you.
The union are not going to get into any conflict around how your manager was handled. If you want to move departments then they might be able to negotiate that.
But it is not clear exactly what you want for you. If the company is treating this manager sympathetically, do you want the union to put a stop to that, because no union would get involved like that.
You mention duties outside your description , but are your overworked on a regular basis. Do you find it impossible to manage your workload. These are all things the union can help you address, perhaps by having additional staff assigned to your department.
I would advise that you have a good idea what you want as an outcome before approaching the union. It will make it easier for you and the union if you are cleart in your own mind what you want to achieve.

02-01-2021 2:22pm

MarkR wrote: »

Your concern is you, and your role. If you feel your role has been added to unfairly, you can request a review, which it sounds like you've done. If you have issues with your managers work, and it is affecting you (little point in flagging you've been asked multiple times for the same thing, or highlighting spelling errors).

If you need more help to do your role, request it, giving your reasons. Any supposition about cognitive decline outside of your own head sounds like a terrible idea.

Role wise, I would root out your original job spec, highlight where you are exceeding it, and note down any additional duties you have had to take over since the new boss.

Good advice here imo

Your projection (however you think you have backed it up) on your new manager does you very little good (and very little credit, tbh)

LegacyUser · 02-01-2021 6:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Good advice here imo

Your projection (however you think you have backed it up) on your new manager does you very little good (and very little credit, tbh)

I often wonder if people who use the term 'projecting' or 'projection' actually know what it means.

I do feel empathy towards her now that I finally understand the situation, it's not about her though it's about the reason why my work load has changed. The reason is one that management don't want to disclose and this is stopping them from acknowledging the extra work, because they would have to explain the change to my workload if they were to acknowledge the work that I've done.

LegacyUser · 02-01-2021 7:55pm

rock22 wrote: »

While you can approach your union, you will need to spell out to them what you want them to do for you.
The union are not going to get into any conflict around how your manager was handled. If you want to move departments then they might be able to negotiate that.
But it is not clear exactly what you want for you. If the company is treating this manager sympathetically, do you want the union to put a stop to that, because no union would get involved like that.
You mention duties outside your description , but are your overworked on a regular basis. Do you find it impossible to manage your workload. These are all things the union can help you address, perhaps by having additional staff assigned to your department.
I would advise that you have a good idea what you want as an outcome before approaching the union. It will make it easier for you and the union if you are cleart in your own mind what you want to achieve.

No I absolutely do not want my manager to get less support, I would have liked to have received the support and clarity I need to help her though. This process of having difficult meetings has gone on for almost half a year now, it would be nice if the decision could be reached soon.

rock22 · 05-01-2021 10:59am

anonymouse8888 wrote: »

No I absolutely do not want my manager to get less support, I would have liked to have received the support and clarity I need to help her though. This process of having difficult meetings has gone on for almost half a year now, it would be nice if the decision could be reached soon.

It seems that management have decided to support this manager sympathetically. They have also decided, for whatever reason, bot to include you in that support framework. You just have to accept that and just continue working in your department as before.
If the extra work you are talking about involves you in having to work extra hours on a regular basis then that is something any union will be happy to address for you. You could ask for addition staff for your department or possibly some work to be off-loaded to another department.
I am not minimising the difficult situation you find yourself in but you might have to accept that your employer will not discuss any health issues with your manager.

storker · 05-01-2021 11:11am

anonymouse8888 wrote: »

I often wonder if people who use the term 'projecting' or 'projection' actually know what it means.

If this is how you react to people giving you good advice, it's not surprising that your having problems at work. You give the impression of being more interested in being proved right than in obtaining a favourable outcome for yourself.

pwurple · 05-01-2021 12:24pm

Sounds to me like you and the new manager are not a good fit. You feel they are not qualified for the role, and are dancing around that you think they are thick. Maybe she is, it happens. Or, you've decades of experience, and they are not up to speed yet (have you fully assisted that , or did you have a bias against her from the very start, and hindered it?)

Now, what are your options if you feel it's intolerable?

Do you think you and new manager can work together at all, or will this continue to drive you nuts?
If not, then you need to find a route out.

Lateral move is fine. The explanation is that you are looking for a change of scenery. Or the honest answer is also fine, new personalities in the current group mean it's not a good fit for you anymore. Good managment understand that not everyone gets along with everyone else.

Alternative is to find a new job.

managers cognitive issues

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