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Is this a health and safety issue (covid related)

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  • 26-12-2020 8:26pm
    #1
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭


    We have to wear face masks in all areas of the work building except when eating.

    We have a changing area in work, where people take off their masks and change their clothes. However, it's only after changing their clothes that they put on a new face mask. Alot of people enter the changing area, take off their masks, change clothes and then put on a new mask. Face masks are provided for changing but people seem to think it's ok to change without a face mask on in a crowded area.

    Is this a potential issue when it comes to covid?


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    #2
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,727 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    How long does it take to get changed, ie is it a 2 minute take off your own top and stick on a company one?

    Or is it a full gowning for a cleanroom job? (In which case, the answer is to consult your existing protocols for gowning.)


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    #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I would have thought coming from an outside area, taking off and disposing of a used mask and then changing would be safer then wearing a potentially contaminated mask while putting on clean clothes over it , probably pulling them over your head?

    I wouldn't think what you describe was an issue - I'd be more concerned that social distancing wasn't being adhered to in the changing room.


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    #4
    quietsailor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭quietsailor


    Are there "Max number of people " signs and 2m markings on the floor that aren't being obeyed when you say the room is over crowded? If they are already present you need to talk to supervisors about enforcing this rule.

    If they're not there you also need to talk to supervisors to get that signage in place.

    Regarding taking off the masks in the changing room - surely that would be good practice? We're being taught not to touch the masks themselves, only the strings and taking your clothes on/off will drag the clothes over the mask


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    #5
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    How long does it take to get changed, ie is it a 2 minute take off your own top and stick on a company one?

    Or is it a full gowning for a cleanroom job? (In which case, the answer is to consult your existing protocols for gowning.)

    Getting back to you. It's a cleanroom environment so yeah full gowning required. Our existing protocols is mask first but not everybody puts on their mask first. And when de-gowning, it's mask off first . I spoke to management and their happy with what they're doing despite going against their procedures. I see the whole thing as more risk. We have a maximum number of people allowed in the room as well but that gets ignored, so hard to distance as well.

    I see the whole thing as a huge risk and they're happy with the whole thing and ignoring their procedures.


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    #6
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Op here again. Not sure what to do for tomorrow. Surely I'm entitled to a safe working place. We have masks and having a few people maskless seems like a huge risk. Not to mention going against their own procedures.

    This seems so wrong to me. I've been dismissed with my concerns a few times. And I've been told that they will look into it when I pointed out their gowning procedure. So not sure if that was their way to dismiss me again.


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    #7
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    How long does it take to get changed, ie is it a 2 minute take off your own top and stick on a company one?

    Or is it a full gowning for a cleanroom job? (In which case, the answer is to consult your existing protocols for gowning.)

    It is full gowning for a cleanroom. The first step of the procedure is to put on a mask. Despite this it gets ignored and is the last to go on with some people and the first to come off as well. In a crowded area. There is a maximum number of people allowed to gown up. This number gets ignored and there is always more.

    I brought my concerns up with management and I was dismissed because it's all about distancing.

    Well I'm back again because HSE has finally updated their website and they have acknowledged airborne spread.

    Now what can I do? I don't want my concerns dismissed again. You can have as much distance, it doesn't matter when it's airborne.

    I'm clearly asking too much when 5 months later it's the same. I somewhat understand because it was HSE who was banging on about distancing. Except things have now changed with their acknowledgement. Do I have anything here now that HSE has acknowledged airborne spread?


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    #8
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,107 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Covid issue wrote: »
    It is full gowning for a cleanroom. The first step of the procedure is to put on a mask. Despite this it gets ignored and is the last to go on with some people and the first to come off as well. In a crowded area. There is a maximum number of people allowed to gown up. This number gets ignored and there is always more.

    I brought my concerns up with management and I was dismissed because it's all about distancing.

    Well I'm back again because HSE has finally updated their website and they have acknowledged airborne spread.

    Now what can I do? I don't want my concerns dismissed again. You can have as much distance, it doesn't matter when it's airborne.

    I'm clearly asking too much when 5 months later it's the same. I somewhat understand because it was HSE who was banging on about distancing. Except things have now changed with their acknowledgement. Do I have anything here now that HSE has acknowledged airborne spread?

    How long are you spending within 2 meters of the your coworkers when changing? We have known for a long time that there is airborne spread.


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    #9
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Dav010 wrote: »
    How long are you spending within 2 meters of the your coworkers when changing? We have known for a long time that there is airborne spread.

    I guess being dismissive is what we do best including your reply. HSE has dismissed airborne spread and only acknowledged it on the 15th of April. It's not about spending 2 meters anymore. Not when it's airborne. But to answer your question, 20 minutes built up throughout the day.

    Guess I've got my answer with your reply with how my employer will continue on.


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    #10
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,107 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    covid issue wrote: »
    I guess being dismissive is what we do best including your reply. HSE has dismissed airborne spread and only acknowledged it on the 15th of April. It's not about spending 2 meters anymore. Not when it's airborne. But to answer your question, 20 minutes built up throughout the day.

    Guess I've got my answer with your reply with how my employer will continue on.

    I’m assuming you mean this:

    https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/how-coronavirus-is-spread.html

    The HSE has warned of airborne transmission since the beginning of the pandemic. Close contacts were defined as those with a proximity of 2m or less for 15mins to someone with/suspected of having Covid, because of airborne transmission. This is not new.

    Your employer has to follow Covid safety protocols, contact the HSA if you are concerned, but I’m not sure if short bursts of being in a room with others which amounts to 20mins in a day, while you wear a mask is cause for concern.


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    #11
    karlitob
    Registered Users Posts: 2,586 ✭✭✭karlitob


    covidissueornot wrote: »
    We have to wear face masks in all areas of the work building except when eating.

    We have a changing area in work, where people take off their masks and change their clothes. However, it's only after changing their clothes that they put on a new face mask. Alot of people enter the changing area, take off their masks, change clothes and then put on a new mask. Face masks are provided for changing but people seem to think it's ok to change without a face mask on in a crowded area.

    Is this a potential issue when it comes to covid?

    Covid is transmitted by droplets through your nose and mouth. Though this can become airborne in specific environments. https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/modes-of-transmission-of-virus-causing-covid-19-implications-for-ipc-precaution-recommendations#:~:text=According to current evidence,,transmission was not reported.

    Don’t touch your face, nose or mouth until you have washed your hands - properly.

    Technically, a close contact is someone who you’ve had a 15minute conversation with face to face (<1m). 2 m was selected for Covid on basis on reduced risk, though we know that the droplets can travel further and remain suspended in the air.

    Finally, context matters and so does an assessment of risk. It’s hard to see how this is a problem for you in the changing area but not eating in the canteen.

    Have there been any cases in your workplace?

    So with regards to your situation above, its fine. If you have an issue with it, then continue wearing your face mask while you change.


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    #12
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    I don't think people understand the issue here. Other people take off their mask in a crowded area. The CDC says that masks should be worn in addition to 6 feet apart. People ignore the amount of people allowed in the room and it's impossible to keep 6 feet apart. They also take off their mask. I am not protected by wearing a mask. I am more protected by others wearing their masks properly which they don't.

    HSE has not acknowledged airborne transmission. Up until April 15... They said on their website that it can happen in certain situations. They never explained these certain situations. Of course we all know it was indoors in unventilated areas. But HSE never said this. Now that they have acknowledged airborne transmission, things change, don't they? It's not about distancing anymore.

    Clearly I'm asking too much for people to leave their masks on.


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    #13
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Another issue is my immediate manager is happy with people taking their face masks off but the health and safety department isn't. And masks continue to be taken off in a crowded area.

    Can I do anything here with health and safety acknowledging it but it gets ignored?


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    #14
    karlitob
    Registered Users Posts: 2,586 ✭✭✭karlitob


    covid issue wrote: »
    I don't think people understand the issue here. Other people take off their mask in a crowded area. The CDC says that masks should be worn in addition to 6 feet apart. People ignore the amount of people allowed in the room and it's impossible to keep 6 feet apart. They also take off their mask. I am not protected by wearing a mask. I am more protected by others wearing their masks properly which they don't.

    HSE has not acknowledged airborne transmission. Up until April 15... They said on their website that it can happen in certain situations. They never explained these certain situations. Of course we all know it was indoors in unventilated areas. But HSE never said this. Now that they have acknowledged airborne transmission, things change, don't they? It's not about distancing anymore.

    Clearly I'm asking too much for people to leave their masks on.

    I don’t think you understand the issue here.

    Airborne is when droplets are aerosolised - usually through aerosolising procedures such as mechanical ventilation (a ventilator). While there is indeed evidence that droplets can be aerolised by coughing and sneezing due to the size of some coronavirus particles - that’s not the same as saying you’ll ingest sufficient viral load to cause you to become infected - presuming a whole load of factors.

    The HSE interpret National and international evidence but typically follow the line of the WHO and ECDC. There would want to be a very good reason to depart from the guidelines and we would’ve heard about it already. See link above for latest advice you seek.

    If you are wearing your mask, I’m not sure what extra protected you get from someone else wearing their mask for the few minutes it takes to get changed - but not when the eat. If it bothers you so much you have a few choices - leave your job, double or triple your mask use for the time that others have theirs off, or shut up moaning about it.

    Clearly you are asking too much of people - but that presumes you asked your colleagues to wear their mask while you were changing.


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    #15
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,107 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    covid issue wrote: »

    HSE has not acknowledged airborne transmission. Up until April 15.
    .

    This is simply not true. Using the waybackmachine shows the advice on the site I linked contains reference to airborne transmission in May 2020 when the transmissibility of Covid became more understood.

    If you are wearing a mask and your contact is not close, and for brief periods in ventilated rooms, the momentary removal of masks by coworkers changing clothes should pose minimal risk to you.

    Having said that, if employees are breaching Covid protocols, contact the HSA. I own a health Clinic, they did random inspections of some Clinics in the area before Christmas, I can assure you they are very thorough.


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    #16
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Dav010 wrote: »
    This is simply not true. Using the waybackmachine shows the advice on the site I linked contains reference to airborne transmission in May 2020 when the transmissibility of Covid became more understood.

    If you are wearing a mask and your contact is not close, and for brief periods in ventilated rooms, the momentary removal of masks by coworkers changing clothes should pose minimal risk to you.

    Having said that, if employees are breaching Covid protocols, contact the HSA. I own a health Clinic, they did random inspections of some Clinics in the area before Christmas, I can assure you they are very thorough.

    Funny how you can claim they acknowledged airborne transmission in May. Using that way back machine, this was their website in early December. See how it says it doesn't play a major role in the spread of COVID-19? And they continued with the same speil until a few weeks ago.

    HSE website from early December
    Airborne spread
    Airborne transmission is the spread of a virus in very tiny water particles. This can happen over a longer distance than droplets, such as across a room. Airborne transmission does not appear to play a major role in the spread of COVID-19. But it can happen in some situations. To protect yourself, keep indoor spaces well ventilated (aired out) by opening windows and doors if possible.

    HSE website April 15 includes this
    It's much safer to meet people outdoors than indoors, even if you keep more than 2 metres apart indoors

    See you can keep more than 2 metres apart and it doesn't matter. Employees have been breaking the rules and management are actually happy because the advice has always been about distancing (health and safety in work seems to agree with me on this one) And it's not even momentarily removal. They take their face mask off, do full gowning and then put on a new mask. Because if this, it's the first thing to come off as well when degowning.

    Surely this is negligence on the employer's part? Knowing it happens and allowing it to continue.


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    #17
    karlitob
    Registered Users Posts: 2,586 ✭✭✭karlitob


    covid issue wrote: »
    Funny how you can claim they acknowledged airborne transmission in May. Using that way back machine, this was their website in early December. See how it says it doesn't play a major role in the spread of COVID-19? And they continued with the same speil until a few weeks ago.

    HSE website from early December
    Airborne spread
    Airborne transmission is the spread of a virus in very tiny water particles. This can happen over a longer distance than droplets, such as across a room. Airborne transmission does not appear to play a major role in the spread of COVID-19. But it can happen in some situations. To protect yourself, keep indoor spaces well ventilated (aired out) by opening windows and doors if possible.

    HSE website April 15 includes this
    It's much safer to meet people outdoors than indoors, even if you keep more than 2 metres apart indoors

    See you can keep more than 2 metres apart and it doesn't matter. Employees have been breaking the rules and management are actually happy because the advice has always been about distancing (health and safety in work seems to agree with me on this one) And it's not even momentarily removal. They take their face mask off, do full gowning and then put on a new mask. Because if this, it's the first thing to come off as well when degowning.

    Surely this is negligence on the employer's part? Knowing it happens and allowing it to continue.

    It’s looks like you don’t want any help with your problem. You just want to mouth off and complain about responses from other posters.

    Either put on more masks when your colleagues remove theirs, or leave your job.

    Either ring the HSA or don’t.

    Either eat by yourself outdoors or remove your mask like all your other colleagues do in the canteen.

    Either way, no one really cares what your problem is. We’re all affected by Covid. Deal with it.


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