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Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

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Comments

  • #502
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,933 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    rivegauche wrote: »
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107424391&postcount=18

    This proposed change to introduce seniority will ensure that empty nest pilots in their fifties will always get the best days off and will always get the best base options. Unions will say that these elder airmen will show consideration for their younger Colleagues but when push to comes to shove the younger pilots will always be left with the scraps. Disgusting
    Im not sure how quoting yourself proves your point?

    My previous experience with 3 airlines (all of which operate a seniority system) leads me to believe that airline staff understand and appreciate this system.
    It has its flaws but at least it is black and white. In my time as operational crew I was never relegated to holidays in Nov, Feb, Oct instead of Summer time.

    And what exactly are "the best days off" I used to prefer midweek off as working weekends earned me more. I was happy to let others get the bank holidays off and mingle with the madding crowd.
    Similarly some ppl (those empty nesters you refer to) prefered off-season holidays as there were less young kids around.

    Your image of cackling top tier staff planning the ruin of younger colleagues is at odds with my actual industry experience.


  • #503
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,909 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    uptherebels wrote: »
    I know right it's like you are forced to work for a bad employer

    again, life isnt this black or white thing some preserve it to be, you d be surprised how fairly normal life events limits your employment opportunities, effectively, yes, some are indeed 'forced' to work for bad employers because of these issues


  • #504
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    you could easily say the same about some employers to, 'every force has an equal and opposite....'
    Exactly there has to be give and take on both sides. It would be pretty unreasonable for the union to expect the company to concede to every single one of their eleven demands but they should at least discuss them and see if there's a middle ground they can both agree on.
    That's the whole point of union "negotiations". Maybe some demands could be shelved with an agreement that they be revisited in the future. It can't be all take, take, take but it can't be all no, no, no either.


  • #505
    notharrypotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭notharrypotter


    uptherebels wrote: »
    I know right it's like you are forced to work for a bad employer

    There are more "bad" employers out there than you think.
    The cult of personality driven by the chairperson often poison's the atmosphere..


  • #506
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    Tenger wrote: »
    Im not sure how quoting yourself proves your point?

    My previous experience with 3 airlines (all of which operate a seniority system) leads me to believe that airline staff understand and appreciate this system.
    It has its flaws but at least it is black and white. In my time as operational crew I was never relegated to holidays in Nov, Feb, Oct instead of Summer time.
    And what exactly are "the best days off" I used to prefer midweek off as working weekends earned me more. I was happy to let others get the bank holidays off and m8ngle with tge madding crowd.
    Similarly some ppl (those empty nesters you refer to) prefered off-season holidays as there were less young kids around.

    Your image of cackling top tier staff planning the ruin of younger colleagues is at odds with my actual industry experience.
    I can well understand why, now that you've worked yourself in to a position of seniority that you would defend it.
    It is notable that this is the fight that the Union reps chose to fight when Ryanair are reputed to be such a terrible employer on so many fronts. That speaks volumes about where the Union priorities lie.


  • #507
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    Tenger wrote: »
    Im not sure how quoting yourself proves your point?

    My previous experience with 3 airlines (all of which operate a seniority system) leads me to believe that airline staff understand and appreciate this system.
    It has its flaws but at least it is black and white. In my time as operational crew I was never relegated to holidays in Nov, Feb, Oct instead of Summer time.
    And what exactly are "the best days off" I used to prefer midweek off as working weekends earned me more. I was happy to let others get the bank holidays off and m8ngle with tge madding crowd.
    Similarly some ppl (those empty nesters you refer to) prefered off-season holidays as there were less young kids around.

    Your image of cackling top tier staff planning the ruin of younger colleagues is at odds with my actual industry experience.

    It's a fallacious argument he's pushing.
    In reality the most senior staff tend to be older and so often have older or adult children. The first two weeks of school holidays tend not to be as important for holiday planning as you get older. My kids are grown up and I certainly wouldn't be planning my holidays during peak school holiday time. Factor in staff standby travel and you'll see why off Peak spring/winter holidays can be more appealing to some...


  • #508
    Widdensushi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,302 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    Tenger wrote: »
    Im not sure how quoting yourself proves your point?

    My previous experience with 3 airlines (all of which operate a seniority system) leads me to believe that airline staff understand and appreciate this system.
    It has its flaws but at least it is black and white. In my time as operational crew I was never relegated to holidays in Nov, Feb, Oct instead of Summer time.

    And what exactly are "the best days off" I used to prefer midweek off as working weekends earned me more. I was happy to let others get the bank holidays off and mingle with the madding crowd.
    Similarly some ppl (those empty nesters you refer to) prefered off-season holidays as there were less young kids around.

    Your image of cackling top tier staff planning the ruin of younger colleagues is at odds with my actual industry experience.

    So the strike is pointless,if the new employees have the priority the result would be the same and everyone would be happy?


  • #509
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    rivegauche wrote: »
    I can well understand why, now that you've worked yourself in to a position of seniority that you would defend it...

    You're not getting this are you...? :rolleyes:

    You don't "work yourself up to a position of seniority" you become more senior by virtue of your service and loyalty...


  • #510
    Irish Steve
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    rivegauche wrote: »
    If they want to give them recognition then do it in a way that ensures other pilots have some faint hope of taking a holiday at a time of the year when their family and friends are around and can be met, not on a random Wednesday in January, February or November while knowing that holidays in Summer or around public holidays are just a distant dream.
    That is what is disgusting about it.

    You really need to get that chip off your shoulder. I wonder if maybe you were "sold" a vision of piloting that was in a different time and under different operational requirements, if that's the case, then the problem is not piloting, it's your expectation of what working life as a pilot will be like.

    Yes, I am well aware that a pilot flying for Ryanair is operating in a very different way to the way a long haul pilot operated for major flag carriers 30 years ago. The reality is that there are very few jobs in aviation that have not changed massively over the last 30 years.

    And before you jump down my throat, I'm not saying that the way Ryanair has evolved some of the terms and conditions that apply to pilots is right, and I'd not be alone in thinking that there are some aspects of that evolution that have gone too far and eroded the quality of the job too much, which is one of the reasons that the pressure for union recognition and the ability to negotiate from a stronger position has come about.

    In the same way, some aspects of flying 30 years ago were at the other end of the spectrum in terms of the life style, and somewhere in the middle, there is a balance that's fair to both the employer and the employees.

    ANY organisation that employs a significant number of people and provides a 7 day service will have similar sorts of requirements that staff provide cover for critical periods, and structures in place to acheive what's necessary to run the business. When I was working on the ramp at Dublin a good few years ago, there were all manner of requirements for cover at peak periods. While some of the overtime was voluntary, the first Christmas, still on a temporary contract at that time, I ended up working 156 hours over a 2 week period due to the way the holiday system worked, and I wasn't the only one, and even with those hours, we were short staffed on some days.

    My daughter works for a DIY retail organisation, they are blanket banned from holidays at Christmas, Easter and other peak periods of the year, due to the volume of customers in the store at those times.

    There have been a number of posts above mine that make it clear that seniority does not work in the way you are suggesting. What it does provide is a way to ensure that there is a way for everyone to know what to expect when the company has to manage things in order to provide the service that they have advertised.

    What seems to be lacking at the moment is a willingness from both sides to really engage and address the substantive issues that are at the heart of the problems.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



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  • #511
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    You really seem to have it for the labour class, it's important to realise what has actually made companies such as Ryanair successful, it has in fact been the hard work of its employees, both past and present, on all levels. If we continue this assault on workers, it will increase the likelihood of further disputes and in fact economic and political destabilisation.

    I believe economic, political and indeed social destabilization will happen on a massive scale before the end of this decade. The reason is because we pay ourselves far too much and this really will have detrimental consequences. Mind you, the damage has already been done and practically everyone is completely clueless as to the extreme and urgent measures that must be implemented immediately to lessen the impact.

    Ryanair is an Irish success story but it should be the norm and not an exception.

    I am not sure how people will react to the next economic crisis in this country because the people are so craven, immature and brat like. It would not surprise me if communism became mainstream given the mentality of the people.


  • #512
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Same here ... or maybe they should stop all service based in Italy, Belgium, Spain and Portugal since they are also facing strikes in these countries and they staff is getting some institutional/public sympathy, that would teach their staff and the public in those countries a lesson ;-)

    Of course they should. The right thing to do is to not give in to the pilots. Easyjet recently started operating in Africa (not sure if they are using a different name there). I think that would be a good move for Ryanair also. Europeans pay themselves far far too much so companies like Ryanair and many others will eventually migrate to other parts of the world and Europe will become an irrelevant backwater.


  • #513
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    Nurse....Nurse....


  • #514
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,555 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    realitykeeper wrote: »

    I am not sure how people will react to the next economic crisis in this country because the people are so craven, immature and brat like. It would not surprise me if communism became mainstream given the mentality of the people.

    Politics forum is elsewhere, please post it in instead.


  • #515
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,555 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    billy few mates wrote: »
    It's a fallacious argument he's pushing.
    In reality the most senior staff tend to be older and so often have older or adult children. The first two weeks of school holidays tend not to be as important for holiday planning as you get older. My kids are grown up and I certainly wouldn't be planning my holidays during peak school holiday time. Factor in staff standby travel and you'll see why off Peak spring/winter holidays can be more appealing to some...

    Same where I've worked. I have my choice of annual leave and it's never going to leave 'junior staff' put out. I don't have kids and really don't want to be fighting (and hence overpaying) with families who have kids for a finite level of flights/hotels/etc let alone surrounded by shrieking children when I do go away; so just don't do so from early July to the end of August, ever.

    I've worked the Christmas period every year for the past 12 years because it pays well or gives me piles of leave to take when it's quiet; everyone with families has got it off everywhere I've worked. The idea that senior staff actually want peak periods off is fallacious bordering on nonsense


  • #516
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,403 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    Seems to me that it is in the interests of everyone to support Ryanair over the pilots and their henchmen in the unions and the D. Leo Varadkar really must learn to say no to strikers. If they want more money, tell them to get a second job.

    They're not striking for more money lad.


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  • #517
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    Each one of those striking Pilots was willing to ruin the travel plans of at least 725 people on the day of each strike on a day chosen to maximise hardship to the most number of people...charming
    189 seats on a 737-800 x 96% occupancy x a likely 4 legs if not more in a shift.

    If they show so little consideration for the innocent public how could any sane person expect that they would show fairness to those blameless pilots who are in their opinion "less senior" purely because they haven't been given a permanent contract or were given a contract only recently. A coterie aligned with the Union will decide how Seniority works in Ryanair if they are successful and they will construct the rules to suit themselves, not others.

    I am also certain that granting this Seniority will work against the interests of the non-union staff as the Union will not be driven to improve the lot of the non-unionised staff who are the ones who most desperately in need of improved working conditions instead serving only the interests of their Clientele; the minority of pilots who have full time contracts.

    I'm not the one trying to screw over my Colleagues and ruining holiday plans for tens of thousands of people yet I'm the one accused of having a chip on my shoulder.


  • #518
    CoisFharraige
    Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭CoisFharraige


    rivegauche wrote: »
    Each one of those striking Pilots was willing to ruin the travel plans of at least 725 people on the day of each strike on a day chosen to maximise hardship to the most number of people...charming
    189 seats on a 737-800 x 96% occupancy x a likely 4 legs if not more in a shift.

    If they show so little consideration for the innocent public how could any sane person expect that they would show fairness to those blameless pilots who are in their opinion "less senior" purely because they haven't been given a permanent contract or were given a contract only recently. A coterie aligned with the Union will decide how Seniority works in Ryanair if they are successful and they will construct the rules to suit themselves, not others.

    I am also certain that granting this Seniority will work against the interests of the non-union staff as the Union will not be driven to improve the lot of the non-unionised staff who are the ones who most desperately in need of improved working conditions instead serving only the interests of their Clientele; the minority of pilots who have full time contracts.

    I'm not the one trying to screw over my Colleagues and ruining holiday plans for tens of thousands of people yet I'm the one accused of having a chip on my shoulder.

    You've given this view about 5 times throughout the thread, and it has been refuted each time by some, and accepted by others. Can we please move on from how you feel that they're ''screwing over'' their own colleagues, as I'm sure that we all understand what your view is at this stage.


  • #519
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    You need to look up the dictionary definition of "refuted". It has been contended by others that the union members will not screw over their Colleagues and I've pointed out that only a naive person based on the Union members behaviour would automatically accept that they'll treat their co-workers fairly.


  • #520
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    Why should we move on from this?
    They chose the fight they wanted to fight which was seniority, not protecting the interests of all pilots who provide services to Ryanair.
    they chose to call strike after strike after strike. One strike is enough to show they have the power to call a strike and establish a bargaining postion at the table but these people continue to call more and more strikes causing great hardship for the travelling public.


  • #521
    Irish Steve
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    OK, this circular argument about seniority has gone round the loop enough times to make even the most experienced aerobatic pilots dizzy.

    It is time to move on from the petty name calling and rehash of the same limited agenda discussion that seems to have everybody distracted.

    Rehashing the same arguments 20 times will not change how the union or Ryanair resolve the issues that have resulted in strike action.

    There are much bigger and more long term issues that should be being addressed, but while both sides indulge in megaphone diplomacy those issues are not going to be dealt with in a way that will resolve the conflict.

    If we don't move on, then we will have to ask certain posters to refrain from posting in this thread, in order to ensure that we get a balanced and wide ranging discussion about what's really happening in this increasingly acrimonious dispute

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



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  • #522
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Looks like German pilots are getting ready for strikes as well: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/german-pilots-set-for-big-yes-vote-in-new-ryanair-strike-37166068.html

    With different categories of staff going on strike accross several countries, I find it is getting hard for Ryanair to honestly blame a particular union or category of staff in a specific country for the current issues, as it is now obvious there are problems accross the board.


  • #523
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Looks like German pilots are getting ready for strikes as well: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/german-pilots-set-for-big-yes-vote-in-new-ryanair-strike-37166068.html

    With different categories of staff going on strike accross several countries, I find it is getting hard for Ryanair to honestly blame a particular union or category of staff in a specific country for the current issues, as it is now obvious there are problems accross the board.

    Another "unnecessary" strike by a small number of >insert percentage< pilots and this time it appears to be about money...? :eek:
    Disgusting as some people on here might say...:rolleyes:

    Be interesting to see how this one 'spins' out. As far as I'm aware all the German pilots are full time employees so all would be eligible to vote, if they vote to strike then it will be a majority decision of the entire group so the "small number of our pilots" will be quietly dropped.
    Also like IALPA the president of the German pilots union is a serving Lufthansa pilot. Arguably LH are a far bigger competitor to Ryanair than Aer Lingus so expect a lot of similar ranting about pilots from competitor airlines leading the strike.


    They really need to get around the table and sort this thing out for once and for all, we need to see this great company back where it belongs, leading the way.


  • #524
    basill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,349 ✭✭✭basill


    And it highlights that the high level management appointments last year that were meant to bring about a change in corporate culture would appear to be mere posturing.


  • #525
    Turnipman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Turnipman


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Looks like German pilots are getting ready for strikes as well: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/german-pilots-set-for-big-yes-vote-in-new-ryanair-strike-37166068.html

    With different categories of staff going on strike accross several countries, I find it is getting hard for Ryanair to honestly blame a particular union or category of staff in a specific country for the current issues, as it is now obvious there are problems accross the board.


    The German one appears to be about money, whereas we have been repeatedly assured by Forsa's Bernard Harbour and his many Boards.ie admirers that the Irish one is all about respect.


  • #526
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    Turnipman wrote: »
    The German one appears to be about money, whereas we have been repeatedly assured by Forsa's Bernard Harbour and his many Boards.ie admirers that the Irish one is all about respect.

    I thought it was all about a seniority system...? :confused:


  • #527
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    The German one is in part about preventing what they call Social Dumping. What they want runs contrary to E.U. principles of open markets to offer your labour in all E.U. member states.
    As a citizen of a small European Country who enjoys freedom of movement you'd need to think long and hard whether you want to support the German Unions.
    Yes, there is an element of arbitrage about what large companies do but if the German Unions get their way a large number of non-Germans might loose their ability to provide for themselves.

    German trade union action will be interesting. If they can't disrupt Ryanair operations in Germany to any meaningful extent then they lose what momentum they have.
    If the German transport unions can't challenge the use of Polish Truck drivers living in the cabs of their trucks then I'm not sure VC will have much more success with pilots and cabin crew.


  • #528
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    Strike at sometime in August after the 8th seems probable now.

    https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/handel-konsumgueter/billigflieger-deutsche-piloten-stimmen-fuer-streik-bei-ryanair/22861644.html?ticket=ST-1773234-ZwLvzsHLNgkaLzXKfwQ2-ap4

    According to that article there are 400 pilots based in 10 German airports. Of those pilots it is not clear how many are contractors.
    As the Union want a higher proportion of salary fixed rather than variable based on flight hours I don't know if a strike can be avoided as Ryanair are unlikely to willingly agree.


  • #529
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    rivegauche wrote: »
    Strike at sometime in August after the 8th seems probable now.

    https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/handel-konsumgueter/billigflieger-deutsche-piloten-stimmen-fuer-streik-bei-ryanair/22861644.html?ticket=ST-1773234-ZwLvzsHLNgkaLzXKfwQ2-ap4

    According to that article there are 400 pilots based in 10 German airports. Of those pilots it is not clear how many are contractors.
    As the Union want a higher proportion of salary fixed rather than variable based on flight hours I don't know if a strike can be avoided as Ryanair are unlikely to willingly agree.

    None of them apparently....
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-14/ryanair-offers-german-pilots-full-contracts-in-peace-overture


  • #530
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    airliners.de says that less that 50% of pilots are company employees but the text is too vague for me to rely upon.
    We will know what effect this strike has when 96% is expressed in actual numbers of employees.

    Status of negotiation according to Ireland so far is
    https://corporate.ryanair.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/11-FORSA-requirements.pdf

    If that is the case then the pilot's union is being vexatious at the expense of Customers.

    I don't think Pilots would strike again if they knew that they had already been granted so much of what they agreed to and the information in the PDF isn't aimed at the public but to reach the Pilots rather than relying on the strike organisers to pass on a true picture of state of negotiation to pilots who are unlikely to be enjoying walking around in circles at the airport roundabout while discommoded passengers glare at them.


  • #531
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    Well that confirms it's not about money, I can't see a single demand on there that would make even the slightest dent on the bottom line let alone "threaten the whole business model" as some scaremongers were predicting.


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  • #532
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Ryanair saying they have accepted demands means very little as we all know the devil is in the details and they are regular offenders in terms of misleading statements and vague promises.

    A request can only be considered fulfilled when the requester says it is happy it is the case (ie the pilots and their union). Doesn't mean the company has to fulfil all of them of course, but they are not the ones to say a request has been fulfilled as they are not the requester.

    And Ryanair pilots are no doubt in a better position than anyone on this thread to know what solid progress has or hasn’t been made.


  • #533
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    I dare say the "Forsa can't/won't explain" language and the obligatory reference to Aer Lingus pilots union is only fanning the flames when a softer approach could have been used.
    Apart from the issue of f/o promotions which hasn't been agreed it looks to me like the last few sticking points might only need to be further clarified to be resolved.


  • #534
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    Dutch pilots have voted for strike action.
    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ryanair-dutch-pilots-vote-favour-industrial-action-115535676--finance.html

    Supposedly 90% of (directly employed???)pilots in Germany, not 96% according to this voted for strike action.
    http://www.airliners.de/ryanair-streiks-alle-piloten/46137

    Rivegauche bought another Ryanair flight. Keep talking Ryanair down. Ye are saving me a fortune. Airhint said there was only a 12% chance of a lower price so I snapped it up.


  • #535
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    rivegauche wrote: »
    Dutch pilots have voted for strike action.
    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ryanair-dutch-pilots-vote-favour-industrial-action-115535676--finance.html

    Supposedly 90% of (directly employed???)pilots in Germany, not 96% according to this voted for strike action.
    http://www.airliners.de/ryanair-streiks-alle-piloten/46137

    Rivegauche bought another Ryanair flight. Keep talking Ryanair down. Ye are saving me a fortune. Airhint said there was only a 12% chance of a lower price so I snapped it up.

    Well done you, save a fortune on your flight and make a fortune out of EU261 if it's cancelled, you might be on to something... :)

    Who's "talking them down"..? :confused:
    I think most people here would like to see an end to these disputes. There are no real winners in these situations (except you apparently), everybody wants to see them coming to an agreement so everyone can get back to their lives and the public can start flying again.


  • #536
    Wrex
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭Wrex


    I feel Ryanair are trying to put out too many fires at the moment, with Unions from multiple countries turning the screw.

    Warnings of job losses and moverment of jobs to Poland, may have subdued anxiety in the ranks previously, however I feel the Unions will persist with their course of action, as it is now or never, as they will feel they have backed Ryanair into a corner.

    Obviously Ryanair is too big and profitable to fail, but they are no doubt hurting. Their business depends on reputation for reliability, which is shot to pieces at the moment. I have never had a problem flying Ryanair, as i could always rely on them, which i cant at the moment, and thats a problem.

    Ultimatley Ryanair has reached a watershed moment in my opinion, and it's time to see if what the employees are crying out for would seriously compromise the Ryanair model. The Ryanair culture has lead to a very successful company , but some companies have to evolve to continue to thrive.


  • #537
    CoisFharraige
    Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭CoisFharraige


    Wrex wrote: »
    I feel Ryanair are trying to put out too many fires at the moment, with Unions from multiple countries turning the screw.

    Warnings of job losses and moverment of jobs to Poland, may have subdued anxiety in the ranks previously, however I feel the Unions will persist with their course of action, as it is now or never, as they will feel they have backed Ryanair into a corner.

    Obviously Ryanair is too big and profitable to fail, but they are no doubt hurting. Their business depends on reputation for reliability, which is shot to pieces at the moment. I have never had a problem flying Ryanair, as i could always rely on them, which i cant at the moment, and thats a problem.

    Ultimatley Ryanair has reached a watershed moment in my opinion, and it's time to see if what the employees are crying out for would seriously compromise the Ryanair model. The Ryanair culture has lead to a very successful company , but some companies have to evolve to continue to thrive.

    Agreed. If there’s any company that should be able to offer good employment conditions to employees (conditions they want within reason) it’s Ryanair.


  • #538
    Brendan Bendar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,731 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Wrex wrote: »
    I feel Ryanair are trying to put out too many fires at the moment, with Unions from multiple countries turning the screw.

    Warnings of job losses and moverment of jobs to Poland, may have subdued anxiety in the ranks previously, however I feel the Unions will persist with their course of action, as it is now or never, as they will feel they have backed Ryanair into a corner.

    Obviously Ryanair is too big and profitable to fail, but they are no doubt hurting. Their business depends on reputation for reliability, which is shot to pieces at the moment. I have never had a problem flying Ryanair, as i could always rely on them, which i cant at the moment, and thats a problem.

    Ultimatley Ryanair has reached a watershed moment in my opinion, and it's time to see if what the employees are crying out for would seriously compromise the Ryanair model. The Ryanair culture has lead to a very successful company , but some companies have to evolve to continue to thrive.

    As I pointed out days ago, there will be a at least a few months of severe turbulence with FR as the pressures equalize.

    You don’t go from no Unions and ‘ do it as we say’ to ‘Hold on there bro, our members have to agree to this and we should sit down for five or six weeks to tease this out’

    Unions like nothing more than endless and endless and endless ‘discussion’ with the company being tied up for weeks and weeks and weeks with their personel involved in every little disput

    FR would ot be used to that scenario.

    But that’s the way it will pan out.


  • #539
    Wrex
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭Wrex


    Brendan Bendar wrote: »
    As I pointed out days ago, there will be a at least a few months of severe turbulence with FR as the pressures equalize.

    You don’t go from no Unions and ‘ do it as we say’ to ‘Hold on there bro, our members have to agree to this and we should sit down for five or six weeks to tease this out’

    Unions like nothing more than endless and endless and endless ‘discussion’ with the company being tied up for weeks and weeks and weeks with their personel involved in every little disput

    FR would ot be used to that scenario.

    But that’s the way it will pan out.

    I understand your point but is Ryanair in a unique position, as it is negotiating with multiple Unions in multiple countries. That must be a very difficult task to deal with.


  • #540
    Brendan Bendar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,731 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Wrex wrote: »
    I understand your point but is Ryanair in a unique position, as it is negotiating with multiple Unions in multiple countries. That must be a very difficult task to deal with.

    It certainly is, 360 degree war at the minute.

    Like a bunch of magpies attacking a squirrel.

    But....r e l a x... gonna be ok.


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  • #541
    Anahita
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭Anahita


    Wrex wrote: »
    I understand your point but is Ryanair in a unique position, as it is negotiating with multiple Unions in multiple countries. That must be a very difficult task to deal with.

    I've been corresponding with a few folks in Portugal and I didn't realise how different their striking/employment legislation is to ours and since RA has to negotiate separately with all these different staff cohorts PLUS the airport unions and staff (TAP in the case of Portugal) it's a really big complicated mess and difficult to manage.

    RA seems to only post the most imminent information on their website. Right now, they're advertising only the planned Aug 3rd strike and nothing else re: cancellations/delays.


  • #542
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Wrex wrote: »
    I understand your point but is Ryanair in a unique position, as it is negotiating with multiple Unions in multiple countries. That must be a very difficult task to deal with.

    Yes it is fairly unique and is both a strength and a weakness.

    Until recently it had only been a strength as they had been using a divide and conquer strategy (leveraging the fact that they are the only centralised entity which has a full view and control over everything while the staff is atomised in different countries which makes it hard to join forces and talk to their employer as one group).

    But it is now also becoming a weakness as the staff is loosely linked accross counties by a common sentiment that things have to change (which is made easier by modern communication methods), but at the same time the company still has to handle multiple localised rebellions in countries which have different legislations and industrial relation cultures, which is obviously hard for a centralised entity and will probably require a bit more of local knowledge/presence/decision power to handle the various scenarios.


  • #543
    Wrex
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭Wrex


    Just received a news alert from RTE, announcing Ryanair pilots in Sweden are to strike on August 10th.


  • #544
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    Another unnecessary strike by a small number >insert percentage< of our >insert nationality/country< pilots who are being manipulated by a bunch of >insert local rival airline< union pilots...


  • #545
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    billy few mates wrote: »
    Another unnecessary strike by a small number >insert percentage< of our >insert nationality/country< pilots who are being manipulated by a bunch of >insert local rival airline< union pilots...

    It would actually be interesting to know if and how Ryanair communicates in the local media where strikes are happening :-)


  • #546
    duskyjoe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 643 ✭✭✭duskyjoe


    Belgium pilots kicking off now. This is extremely serious for FR.


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  • #547
    IngazZagni
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,608 ✭✭✭IngazZagni


    Ryanair have completely lost control of the situation now. It's quite clear that the disputes Ryanair pilots have are not confined to the Irish as Ryanair would have you believe. Ryanairs approach to talks has been appaling so far. Are they going to threaten hundreds of more pilots with dismissal? It's farsacal.

    Ryanair need to act like a mature company for a change and engage in meaningful dialogue.


  • #548
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    I've a simple question, but did Ryanair have a choice to say they would not deal with unions? because they were moronic or naive beyond belief, not to have foreseen the absolute joke that now lies ahead, indefinitely..


  • #549
    CoisFharraige
    Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭CoisFharraige


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    I've a simple question, but did Ryanair have a choice to say they would not deal with unions? because they were moronic or naive beyond belief, not to have foreseen the absolute joke that now lies ahead, indefinitely..

    ''An employee has a constitutional right to join a trade union; however he/she cannot insist that his/her employer recognise the union as the right to join is a personal right. An employee also has a right not to join a trade union under European law as the European Convention on Human Rights has been held to contain a ‘negative right of association.''

    So yes they have the choice not to engage, as they have in the past, but that is no longer feasible as we can see, as the unrest is just gathering momentum exponentially.

    Their silly rhetoric is just nonsensical at this point. They can't fool the public any longer about the fact that its confined to 'a small minority of our Irish pilots'. Clearly this is going out of control now, and it serves them right in my opinion for failing to realise this months ago. Talk about something coming back to bite you in the ass...


  • #550
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    duskyjoe wrote: »
    Belgium pilots kicking off now. This is extremely serious for FR.

    Same day as Sweden as well.

    Clearly while represented by different unions and having different requests, pilots in various countries are synching-up to maximise impact.

    That is a serious escalation.


  • #551
    PCros
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭PCros


    What are the numbers of pilots per country currently are/planning striking? Ireland have approx 100 and Sweden approx 40?

    I'm just wondering out of 4200 pilots will this affect them at all or is there one country that could hurt them hard if they have a lot of unionised pilots? Ryanair have been quite efficient at moving pilots from other countries to strike-affected areas etc.

    In fairness we all forgot about the rostering issues fairly fast which led to them cancelling 20,000 flights so it will be interesting to see how this pans out.


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