A common misconception in Ireland.

realitykeeper · 01-10-2017 10:07am #1

Throughout it`s post independence history, the 26 counties have looked elsewhere for salvation. The US and UK were sponges to soak up our unemployed and remittances came back to Ireland when the country was desperately poor. Later, the focus was on getting foreign investment and US companies in particular responded very well and provided many thousands of jobs here.

After joining the EEC (EU), billions came from Europe for infrastructure investment. Meanwhile, Ireland`s history of famine, emigration and foreign oppression has remained in the background, and playing the victim does come naturally to those who feel sorry for themselves. I think it was Sean Lemass who said "the Irish are rather good at feeling sorry for themselves" and what a wise man he was.

Anyway, the point I am getting to is that this perception that Ireland is a victim and that other countries should help us is a mistake. We had a minor lesson in this regard in recent years when the Irish government wanted debt forgiveness from the EU because we were victims of the banking crisis. To make sure they could be victims, the government stupidly bailed out the banks but of course the EU would not write off the debt because the housing crash was our property crash not the EU`s.

Apart from economic begging, Ireland I suspect think other countries would help us in the event of war. This too is a very foolish assumption. The Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu recently said that the most important lesson to be drawn from the holocaust is that no other country will assist you if you cannot protect yourself. President Paul Kagame of Rwanda has made the same point in reference to both defense and economic development.

Ireland needs to grow up and leverage it`s strengths to provide long term sustainable economic prosperity which in turn will enable it to defend itself. Will Ireland do that? I doubt it. The fact that no determined effort is being made to revive the Irish language is proof that the country lacks self respect.

The misconception that others will help us in our hour of need is a dangerous one. Am I wrong?

Permabear · 10-10-2017 10:29pm

This post has been deleted.

Peregrinus · 13-10-2017 4:14am

Yes, you’re wrong. No surprise there.

In your first paragraph you point to the US and the UK as “sponges to soak up our unemployed” andlater on as a source for foreign direct investment. And while you could argue that this makes us dependent on the US and the UK, you can equally argue the case the other way around - e.g. the US was for a long time dependent on Ireland (and similar countries) as a source of migrants to relieve its acute labour shortage, and now to provide opportunties for the investment of surplus capital, which would otherwise earn declining returns in the domestic market.

The fact is that all countries are interdependent and, as the world becomes more globalised, this becomes truer. This isn’t a weakness; it’s a strength.

Is it a misconception that “others will help us in our hour of need”? Well, they’ll help us if it suits them, and it often will. No misconception there.

I think the real misconception is that, as a small nation whose dependence on others is (relatively) great, this makes Ireland unusual, or a “victim”. It makes us absolutely normal.

And the other misconception is that Ireland needs to devote its (limited) material resources to enable it to undertake its own military defence in the way that Israel does. We don’t need to do this, because we don’t face the same existential threat that Israel does. And if we did face such a threat, the only way we could possibly tool up to defend ourselves against is by doing what Israel does; accepting billions and billions of military aid every year from the US (or some other patron). Your fantasy of self-sufficient isolated independence is the biggest misconception of all.

13-10-2017 4:26am

realitykeeper wrote:

The fact that no determined effort is being made to revive the Irish language is proof that the country lacks self respect.

In a budget that was said to help the squeezed middle, it gave the middle 5 euro a week, and gave 2.5 Million to the Irish language.

What determined effort would you like?

If the population want to speak the language, they will. Turns out they don't. Its been artificially edited too much.

realitykeeper · 14-10-2017 10:46am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes, you’re wrong. No surprise there.

In your first paragraph you point to the US and the UK as “sponges to soak up our unemployed” andlater on as a source for foreign direct investment. And while you could argue that this makes us dependent on the US and the UK, you can equally argue the case the other way around - e.g. the US was for a long time dependent on Ireland (and similar countries) as a source of migrants to relieve its acute labour shortage, and now to provide opportunties for the investment of surplus capital, which would otherwise earn declining returns in the domestic market.

The fact is that all countries are interdependent and, as the world becomes more globalised, this becomes truer. This isn’t a weakness; it’s a strength.

Is it a misconception that “others will help us in our hour of need”? Well, they’ll help us if it suits them, and it often will. No misconception there.

I think the real misconception is that, as a small nation whose dependence on others is (relatively) great, this makes Ireland unusual, or a “victim”. It makes us absolutely normal.

And the other misconception is that Ireland needs to devote its (limited) material resources to enable it to undertake its own military defence in the way that Israel does. We don’t need to do this, because we don’t face the same existential threat that Israel does. And if we did face such a threat, the only way we could possibly tool up to defend ourselves against is by doing what Israel does; accepting billions and billions of military aid every year from the US (or some other patron). Your fantasy of self-sufficient isolated independence is the biggest misconception of all.

This kind of complacency was the hallmark of many nations which no longer exist. Genocides have happened far more frequently in history than many people imagine. Some were total, others were not and we generally hear only of those that did not result in the total annihilation of a nation. The reason is because when you are dead you are dead and the living generally do not care enough to raise awareness of such atrocities when their ancestors were not the victims.

This is why we hear more about genocides in which there were survivors who can speak for their dead relatives.

I think in the few decades following the aftermath of the great Irish famine, the Irish nation (landlords don`t count) were better as a people because of what they had suffered and survived. Granted the repealing of the penal laws also helped, but at the end of the day it takes a combination of suffering and enlightenment to lift a nation.

The Ireland of today has a skewed take on reality, on history and on values. Ireland needs to suffer, it needs to be humbled and if it survives (which I doubt) it will return to God and new values will replace what we presently hold dear.

Peregrinus · 16-10-2017 2:21am

Hold on. A couple of posts ago you were urging us to follow the example of Israel, and make ourselves dependent on the US for national defence against the prospect of genocide. Now you're telling us we should "turn to God".

You ask us "am I wrong?" Well, if you think about it logically, at least one of these positions has to be wrong, and it's entirely possible that both are.

realitykeeper · 17-11-2017 8:56pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Hold on. A couple of posts ago you were urging us to follow the example of Israel, and make ourselves dependent on the US for national defence against the prospect of genocide. Now you're telling us we should "turn to God".

You ask us "am I wrong?" Well, if you think about it logically, at least one of these positions has to be wrong, and it's entirely possible that both are.

I did not say we should make ourselves dependent on the US for national defense. You seem to be suggesting that if one turns to God one cannot do other things like washing the dishes, learning from the Israelis and what not. Your assertion is totally untrue, one can turn to God and still find time to do one`s duty.

The very fact that you think one cannot turn to God and do something else also, renders your "argument" unworthy of the name.

Hitman3000 · 17-11-2017 9:01pm

realitykeeper wrote:

The Ireland of today has a skewed take on reality, on history and on values. Ireland needs to suffer, it needs to be humbled and if it survives (which I doubt) it will return to God and new values will replace what we presently hold dear.

When God in the form of his servants the church held sway here lots of very nasty and vile things happened. Oddly God did nothing to stop it.

Peregrinus · 18-11-2017 2:39am

realitykeeper wrote: »

I did not say we should make ourselves dependent on the US for national defense. You seem to be suggesting that if one turns to God one cannot do other things like washing the dishes, learning from the Israelis and what not . . .

But what we would learn from the Israelis, surely, is that we should make ourselves dependent on the US for our national defence. That's what they've done, after all.

Or are you suggesting that we should learn from the Israels by treating them as an Awful Example, looking at what they have done and then doing our best to do the exact opposite?

realitykeeper · 19-11-2017 11:40pm

Hitman3000 wrote: »

When God in the form of his servants the church held sway here lots of very nasty and vile things happened. Oddly God did nothing to stop it.

Everyone is individually accountable so blaming the church will not excuse your own sinfulness. One must repent and become righteous or at least strive to do so. The suffering of this world is in large part a consequence of original sin. If humanity were not sinful, suffering would be much reduced so why blame God for what is our fault.

realitykeeper · 19-11-2017 11:49pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

But what we would learn from the Israelis, surely, is that we should make ourselves dependent on the US for our national defence. That's what they've done, after all.

Or are you suggesting that we should learn from the Israels by treating them as an Awful Example, looking at what they have done and then doing our best to do the exact opposite?

I do not agree with your former point. Certainly Israel make good use of their American ally but I think the Israelis know that relationship may not stand the test of time and so they are preparing for greater self reliance and forging other alliances. If you look at what is happening in the middle east today it is possible to discern strains on the US relationship with Saudi Arabia and who knows what ramifications this will have on US foreign policy in the middle east in future. Also, demographic shifts in the USA may ultimately force a rethink on US foreign policy.

Israel is a light onto the nations and Ireland really ought to emanate the Holy land in as much as we are able to do so.

Peregrinus · 20-11-2017 4:57am

Oh, come now, realitykeeper; you should know better. It's Israel, the chosen people, who are called to be a light to the nations, not Israel, the modern state. Big difference.

You're forever trawling through the bible to look for quotes to support your entirely modern, entirely non-religious political beliefs and positions. It leads you into ludicrous errors like this one. You probably should stop. Far from giving the impression that your political positions are soundly based, it has quite the opposite effect.

As for Israeli defence policy, it is crucially dependent on the $3 billion or so they get every year from the US by way of military aid. There's no doubt that, if they didn't get it, they'd have to radically revise their long-term strategy for national security.

In general terms, their long-term strategy for national security has been heavily dependent on the use of force, and/or the willingness to use force. Since they're not Christians, there is absolutely no reason to think that their strategy would be at all influenced by Christian beliefs or values and, right enough, it isn't. If there's one thing that Christianity teaches it's that you should not put your faith in force to save you; that's an idolatrous faith and, in the long run, it cannot save you. The example of Christ encourages us to transcend violence by submitting ourselves to it without resistance. While in a materialist world it's entirely possible that people - particularly non-Christians - would be leery of this advice and would prefer to put their faith in $3 billion of US military aid, if offered, for a Christian this is a no-brainer. The $3 billion will buy you nothing of enduring value.

realitykeeper · 21-11-2017 3:42pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

As for Israeli defence policy, it is crucially dependent on the $3 billion or so they get every year from the US by way of military aid. There's no doubt that, if they didn't get it, they'd have to radically revise their long-term strategy for national security.

In general terms, their long-term strategy for national security has been heavily dependent on the use of force, and/or the willingness to use force. Since they're not Christians, there is absolutely no reason to think that their strategy would be at all influenced by Christian beliefs or values and, right enough, it isn't. If there's one thing that Christianity teaches it's that you should not put your faith in force to save you; that's an idolatrous faith and, in the long run, it cannot save you. The example of Christ encourages us to transcend violence by submitting ourselves to it without resistance. While in a materialist world it's entirely possible that people - particularly non-Christians - would be leery of this advice and would prefer to put their faith in $3 billion of US military aid, if offered, for a Christian this is a no-brainer. The $3 billion will buy you nothing of enduring value.

Regarding the $3 billion annual stipend, I would point out that the true value of the petro dollar is only a small fraction of the market value. When the US dollar crashes, the $3 billion may need to become $30 billion to retain its purchasing power, that is assuming alliances remain intact.

There is a very substantial overlap between Christianity and Judaism, both faiths sharing the old testament.

On your final point, I have come to terms with Ireland`s sad history by accepting that it was the tribalism and faction fighting of the ancient Gaelic clans that exposed the country to invasion, humiliation, enslavement, dispossession, persecution, poverty, despair, displacement, genocide and loss of culture. Israel is simply equipping itself to prevent such things and in so doing it is protecting the immortal souls of the weak willed who would perpetrate such crimes if they could. There is nothing wrong with having a shield.

A common misconception in Ireland.

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