Waterford - Rosslare Greenway

Del.Monte · 17-05-2020 2:10pm #1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc1prUMDbQA

Only came across this video today. Interesting how it's not possible to leave a comment. I'd be worried for the future of the line save for the fact that Wexford County Council are even more useless than CIE and will probably never get their act together.

Turbohymac · 17-05-2020 2:21pm

The greenways are really good actually..the Dungarvan to Waterford one is great..there currently cleaning and preparing the old disused railtrack between youghal and midleton..yes there were loads moaning about it and saying the train track should have been restored and public transport from cork all the way to youghal but it was loss making when it closed back in 1979 or so.. and it's not visible..far better to develop family friendly greenways instead of letting the rail track abandoned

91wx763 · 17-05-2020 2:42pm

Turbohymac wrote: »

The greenways are really good actually..the Dungarvan to Waterford one is great..there currently cleaning and preparing the old disused railtrack between youghal and midleton..yes there were loads moaning about it and saying the train track should have been restored and public transport from cork all the way to youghal but it was loss making when it closed back in 1979 or so.. and it's not visible..far better to develop family friendly greenways instead of letting the rail track abandoned

.....in 1979 or so..............

Nuff said.

loyatemu · 17-05-2020 3:01pm

the main issue with this one will be the Barrow bridge, it's massive and apparently in bad condition. Who will pay to repair/maintain it?

Lord Glentoran · 17-05-2020 5:19pm

loyatemu wrote: »

the main issue with this one will be the Barrow bridge, it's massive and apparently in bad condition. Who will pay to repair/maintain it?

Charge the cyclists the cost per use. If they want the line they can pay for the damn thing.

whisky_galore · 17-05-2020 5:40pm

Turbohymac wrote: »

but it was loss making when it closed back in 1979 or so.. and it's not visible..

Show me the railway that makes a profit in this country, do roads make a profit?

Jamie2k9 · 17-05-2020 6:24pm

loyatemu wrote: »

the main issue with this one will be the Barrow bridge, it's massive and apparently in bad condition. Who will pay to repair/maintain it?

This is why IE would happily offload the route however not sure it will be done that easy.

I couldn’t see major spend to have walkers or cyclists on it.

whisky_galore · 17-05-2020 6:26pm

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Charge the cyclists the cost per use. If they want the line they can pay for the damn thing.

Greenways aren't free anyway. Nothing is.

sweet_trip · 17-05-2020 9:55pm

loyatemu wrote: »

the main issue with this one will be the Barrow bridge, it's massive and apparently in bad condition. Who will pay to repair/maintain it?

The Barrow Bridge is also still in operation and manned to let ships through multiple times per week. Good luck with that one.

loyatemu · 18-05-2020 1:23pm

sweet_trip wrote: »

The Barrow Bridge is also still in operation and manned to let ships through multiple times per week. Good luck with that one.

last I heard they were proposing to remove the opening section to save money on maintenance (as happened in Waterford in the 80s).

Isambard · 19-05-2020 3:26am

whisky_galore wrote: »

Show me the railway that makes a profit in this country, do roads make a profit?

a better description would be the line was underused. Show me a road that isn't used.

Cookiemunster · 19-05-2020 11:30am

whisky_galore wrote: »

Show me the railway that makes a profit in this country, do roads make a profit?

What a terrible comparison. Roads don't need passengers to pay a fare to pay for the upkeep of rolling stock and infrastructure or staff wages.

If nobody uses a road it costs the state the same as if 100000 people use it. The same cannot be said of railways.

Lord Glentoran · 19-05-2020 1:42pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

What a terrible comparison. Roads don't need passengers to pay a fare to pay for the upkeep of rolling stock and infrastructure or staff wages.

If nobody uses a road it costs the state the same as if 100000 people use it. The same cannot be said of railways.

The new Government should move to “pay by use and impact” road pricing, with higher rates for heavier vehicles, and then you will have a real cost comparison with railways.

TheBoyConor · 19-05-2020 3:27pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

This is why IE would happily offload the route however not sure it will be done that easy.

I couldn’t see major spend to have walkers or cyclists on it.

A bridge like this costs a very substantial sum of money every year to keep in a condition fit for traffic, let alone upgrade it for use by cyclists and pedestrians. And it is already in fairly poor condition.

Also the opening span to allow shipping through, that would cost an absolute fortune to upgrade, maintain and operate.

The cost of doing up that bridge alone would probably exceed the cost of every other piece of that greenway.

It simply would not be worth that massive money for a leisure oriented cycleway.

Better off just making the greenway up as far as the abutment at either side, make a nice picnic and viewing area and forget about the bridge. Still stunning scenery either way.

TheBoyConor · 19-05-2020 3:33pm

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

The new Government should move to “pay by use and impact” road pricing, with higher rates for heavier vehicles, and then you will have a real cost comparison with railways.

That is already the case. Small cars cost small tax, use relatively little fuel the cost of which is mostly taxes. They have a very small impact in terms of road wear and tear. On the other hand, an artic truck costs lots of motor tax, travels relatively huge milage and uses huge amounts of fuel compared to your average VW golf. HGVs are the biggest factor in road wear and tear. So a truck operator pays vastly more to the government in road use related tax than biddy going to the shops in her car.

On the Barrow Bridge, I would agree. The lift span will probably be removed. possible scrapped. Best case is that it'll be left at one of the abutments and made an exhibit or something.

Lord Glentoran · 19-05-2020 7:01pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

That is already the case. Small cars cost small tax, use relatively little fuel the cost of which is mostly taxes. They have a very small impact in terms of road wear and tear. On the other hand, an artic truck costs lots of motor tax, travels relatively huge milage and uses huge amounts of fuel compared to your average VW golf. HGVs are the biggest factor in road wear and tear. So a truck operator pays vastly more to the government in road use related tax than biddy going to the shops in her car.

On the Barrow Bridge, I would agree. The lift span will probably be removed. possible scrapped. Best case is that it'll be left at one of the abutments and made an exhibit or something.

More likely nicked by scrap dealers. Official Ireland’s track record regarding industrial heritage is poor. No wonder the railways, the canals and bridges are targeted by vultures looking to use them for nothing.

donvito99 · 19-05-2020 8:35pm

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

No wonder the railways, the canals and bridges are targeted by vultures looking to use them for nothing.

Who are these "vultures" and what are they looking?

Del.Monte · 19-05-2020 9:16pm

Even considering turning this route into a greenway is beyond belief but then long term planning does not feature on the NTA's agenda.

Jamie2k9 · 19-05-2020 9:55pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

A bridge like this costs a very substantial sum of money every year to keep in a condition fit for traffic, let alone upgrade it for use by cyclists and pedestrians. And it is already in fairly poor condition.

Also the opening span to allow shipping through, that would cost an absolute fortune to upgrade, maintain and operate.

The cost of doing up that bridge alone would probably exceed the cost of every other piece of that greenway.

It simply would not be worth that massive money for a leisure oriented cycleway.

Better off just making the greenway up as far as the abutment at either side, make a nice picnic and viewing area and forget about the bridge. Still stunning scenery either way.

Well if the maintainers had spent what they should have when they had money it wouldn't be in such a bad state and IE are not spending what they should be in terms of regular maintenance currently either.

My comment was more so IE would offload this bridge because the greenway funding would easily allow circa 2 million be available to upgrade and maintain to a better standard that today.

I don't think a greenway will happen on this route and at some stage IE will need to increase funding for its maintenance.

TheBoyConor · 19-05-2020 10:11pm

Hilarious. €2 million wouldn't even begin to sort out the upgrade of that bridge to the standard required for a cycle way.
I'd say it's more like €10 million for the bridge alone.
Probably €1m annually in inspection, maintenance and operation costs alone. At least.
It is a very significant structure, not a hollow core slab fecked across a stream.

PTH2009 · 19-05-2020 10:15pm

What villages did the line go through coming from Waterford ??

Can't recall many if any East Waterford villages that had a railway line

Always get mixed up with the Barrow bridge and the abandoned Red iron bridge

Jamie2k9 · 19-05-2020 11:08pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Hilarious. €2 million wouldn't even begin to sort out the upgrade of that bridge to the standard required for a cycle way.
I'd say it's more like €10 million for the bridge alone.
Probably €1m annually in inspection, maintenance and operation costs alone. At least.
It is a very significant structure, not a hollow core slab fecked across a stream.

The projected costs for the planned greenway which was rejected were €12 million and while I think that was underestimate there would have been some consideration given to Barrow Bridge.

Irish Rail are spending next to nothing and let 100 tonnes pass over it.

TheBoyConor · 19-05-2020 11:35pm

Yes but as far as IE are concerned it is a run down asset that they are just itching to wash their hands of. If it can be done on the basis that it is no longer safe to traverse that would be a nice get out for them.

And anyway, whatever state it might now be in, the reality is if you are making it a pedestrian and cycle bridge, it will need to be upgraded to meet the standards required for that. That process will require close inspections, surveys and analysis to decide whether it is safe to do so. Engineers cannot give the go ahead to use the bridge or upgrade it if they are in the knowledge that some elements of the bridge are defective or so deteriorated as to be unsafe. The thing is, as I said, a bridge of that scale will cost s stupendous amount of money to repair if there is anything other than superficial damage to it.

Look at Daly's "Shakey" Bridge in Cork. It is costing €1.7million to refurbish that brige with a span of only 160 feet. Both bridges are from a similar era and probably neglected to a similar degree. God only knows how much the Barrow Bridge would cost to make it safe for pedestrians and cyclists.

Fair play on the optimism, but I can't see it ending up being any different to the Red Iron Bridge. I'll eat my hat, shoes and socks if it opens as part of the Greenway.

Jamie2k9 · 19-05-2020 11:52pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Yes but as far as IE are concerned it is a run down asset that they are just itching to wash their hands of. If it can be done on the basis that it is no longer safe to traverse that would be a nice get out for them.

And anyway, whatever state it might now be in, the reality is if you are making it a pedestrian and cycle bridge, it will need to be upgraded to meet the standards required for that. That process will require close inspections, surveys and analysis to decide whether it is safe to do so. Engineers cannot give the go ahead to use the bridge or upgrade it if they are in the knowledge that some elements of the bridge are defective or so deteriorated as to be unsafe. The thing is, as I said, a bridge of that scale will cost s stupendous amount of money to repair if there is anything other than superficial damage to it.

Look at Daly's "Shakey" Bridge in Cork. It is costing €1.7million to refurbish that brige with a span of only 160 feet. Both bridges are from a similar era and probably neglected to a similar degree. God only knows how much the Barrow Bridge would cost to make it safe for pedestrians and cyclists.

Fair play on the optimism, but I can't see it ending up being any different to the Red Iron Bridge. I'll eat my hat, shoes and socks if it opens as part of the Greenway.

I believe plans for the greenway were rejected and have to date not been revised nor do I see any funding becoming available.

IE have tried fix the bridge in its open position but have not been successful yet.

Harry Palmr · 20-05-2020 12:00am

I'm slightly at a loss to know why anyone would want to build a direct greenway to/from Rosslare really but the obvious thing is Waterford - New Ross, New Ross to Campile and then get on the railway route. Take out the bridge and it's expense entirely and as a cyclist from Rosslare you have two options - go north to NR or take the ferry at Ballyhack which is just a few KMs away from Campile and makes plenty of sense anyway! Run a "green lane" from Passage East to Waterford..

91wx763 · 20-05-2020 1:09am

The greenway has to come to a halt before it reaches the port of Waterford land.

See page 90 of http://www.portofwaterford.com/uploads/download/19_10_10_E1475_PoW_Masterplan_SEA_Enviro_Report.pdf

Section 6.10 para 8. (PDF doesn't allow copy/paste sorry).

Aside also in the same PDF, point 10 of Cllr Power's email to the port of Waterford exec in the public consultation submissions section (submission no. 11) does raise an eyebrow, he says that walkers had "unfettered access" to the railway line and would the port be providing alternative access !!! it's an operational railway and he wants trespass accommodated.... strewth.

(Easiest way to navigate the PDF to see my points is ctrl+F and keyword "railway").

whisky_galore · 20-05-2020 7:26am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I believe plans for the greenway were rejected and have to date not been revised nor do I see any funding becoming available.

IE have tried fix the bridge in its open position but have not been successful yet.

Rejected as sea views can't be seen, curiously silent about the bridge matter both on local press and cyclist organ stickybottle.

Curb Your Enthusiasm · 20-05-2020 7:45am

Isambard wrote: »

a better description would be the line was underused. Show me a road that isn't used.

Show me a railway line with one train a day each way at rubbish times that isn't 'underused'. The scheduling was unusable for the majority. Similar to what they're currently doing on Lmk - Waterford and Ballybrophy - Lmk lines.

IMO, leaving poor schedules in place to give them a case in future to wash their hands of the lines.

Isambard · 20-05-2020 8:25am

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

Show me a railway line with one train a day each way at rubbish times that isn't 'underused'. The scheduling was unusable for the majority. Similar to what they're currently doing on Lmk - Waterford and Ballybrophy - Lmk lines.

IMO, leaving poor schedules in place to give them a case in future to wash their hands of the lines.

show me a railway line that has a train going where everyone wants it to go immediately.
Works both ways.

91wx763 · 20-05-2020 6:58pm

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

Show me a railway line with one train a day each way at rubbish times that isn't 'underused'. The scheduling was unusable for the majority. Similar to what they're currently doing on Lmk - Waterford and Ballybrophy - Lmk lines.

IMO, leaving poor schedules in place to give them a case in future to wash their hands of the lines.

Completely correct.

Curb Your Enthusiasm · 21-05-2020 11:10am

And it begins....
https://waterford-news.ie/2020/05/20/waterford-to-limerick-junction-rail-service-to-be-restored-in-time/#.XsZTBxjTUwB

I told ya · 21-05-2020 4:14pm

This piece of infrastructure should be kept and maintained as a railway.

There is a good possibility that Brexit could turn sour yet. And if it does, I would be of the view that EU26 bound exports and further afield should go direct and no through the UK. Only asking for trouble, delays, etc.

Access to Rosslare may well become critical for both road and rail.

donvito99 · 21-05-2020 4:59pm

I told ya wrote: »

This piece of infrastructure should be kept and maintained as a railway.

There is a good possibility that Brexit could turn sour yet. And if it does, I would be of the view that EU26 bound exports and further afield should go direct and no through the UK. Only asking for trouble, delays, etc.

Access to Rosslare may well become critical for both road and rail.

If goods going direct to the continent don't require a railway at the moment, what difference is Brexit making requiring the railway to stay the way it is? If there is increased volumes going direct, that would be an issue of ferries and not railways.

L1011 · 21-05-2020 8:52pm

I told ya wrote: »

This piece of infrastructure should be kept and maintained as a railway.

There is a good possibility that Brexit could turn sour yet. And if it does, I would be of the view that EU26 bound exports and further afield should go direct and no through the UK. Only asking for trouble, delays, etc.

Access to Rosslare may well become critical for both road and rail.

Rosslare is not a container port, and the south coasts container port is rail connected

I told ya · 22-05-2020 1:01pm

I know it's not a container port and the point about containers not using the railway is a valid one.

However, I still feel that this relatively short stretch of railway is a critical piece of infrastructure and should be maintained.

I appreciate that this is not a thread about Brexit, but I feel it would be best to hold onto it until matters are resolved.

It may well come to pass that Rosslare has to be developed. There was talk a few years back about relocating Dublin Port to north Co Dublin. So the idea of developing new facilities is not a new one.

If it were to come to the situation that there was a fall in traffic across the Irish Sea and an increase in traffic on non UK routes, then developing Rosslare may be on the agenda.

So until matters are resolved, as the fella says, 'you're better off having than looking for it'.

Isambard · 22-05-2020 1:06pm

i very much doubt there is enough room at Rosslare to build a container port. Even if there was, what would the advantage be over Dublin and Waterford? You're surely not suggesting a train running past Waterford container port to Rosslare? Building (or re-building sadly) at Cork would make more sense, or Foynes.

man98 · 22-05-2020 5:07pm

Isambard wrote: »

i very much doubt there is enough room at Rosslare to build a container port. Even if there was, what would the advantage be over Dublin and Waterford? You're surely not suggesting a train running past Waterford container port to Rosslare? Building (or re-building sadly) at Cork would make more sense, or Foynes.

Rosslare is far better located than Belview for containers. No pilot needed, no estuary to crawl up. There isn't enough space at Rosslare for a rail integrated container port, though land could be reclaimed. Writing off the Rosslare - Waterford line now however is premature, and there may well come a day where rail freight through Rosslare is very necessary, especially as the shortage of truck drivers becomes more acute.

donvito99 · 22-05-2020 5:25pm

man98 wrote: »

and there may well come a day where rail freight through Rosslare is very necessary, especially as the shortage of truck drivers becomes more acute.

And in that case, couldn't freight be brought in via the extant line from Dublin?

end of the road · 22-05-2020 6:08pm

donvito99 wrote: »

And in that case, couldn't freight be brought in via the extant line from Dublin?

it would depend on what it is and whether via dublin would be quicker for it to travel.
containers i believe are out due to clearence on the dublin line but someone will know for sure, so any containers would have to go via waterford.

Losty Dublin · 26-05-2020 12:53am

Isambard wrote: »

i very much doubt there is enough room at Rosslare to build a container port.

There was plans on paper to expand Rosslare port by way of reclaiming land. Part of which is to make it able and ready to handle some container traffic. However these plans were made pre depression and have obviously slipped down the list of priorities, though they do pop up from time to time with a rail connection being mentioned albeit on a less grandiose scale.

The M11 has since had several improvements and extensions made to it along with that on the N25 and the New Ross bypass so road haulage times will be improved to any new port. It would be fair to say that the line from Connolly would probably struggle to cope with even an extra return trip a day. It's other issue of slow speeds on the line will not help things. However trains could also run via Waterford with a little investment on the South Wexford to Rosslare.

Unlikely I know but it's a possibility.

sporty56 · 26-05-2020 4:03pm

Recent approval of development for the Port re off-shore windfarms will take a fair bit of space and this use will be for 10/15 years I'd reckon.

https://xellz.com/europort-business-park-to-handle-future-offshore-wind/

https://www.offshorewind.biz/2020/05/19/ireland-speeds-up-seven-offshore-wind-projects/

Isambard · 26-05-2020 4:13pm

man98 wrote: »

Rosslare is far better located than Belview for containers. No pilot needed, no estuary to crawl up. There isn't enough space at Rosslare for a rail integrated container port, though land could be reclaimed. Writing off the Rosslare - Waterford line now however is premature, and there may well come a day where rail freight through Rosslare is very necessary, especially as the shortage of truck drivers becomes more acute.

common sense tells me you don't build a new container port and then have trains run past Bellevue or Dublin container ports. What would be the point? You don't do that just so we can have a few more locos to spot. Foynes would make more sense

Del.Monte · 26-05-2020 6:14pm

Isambard wrote: »

common sense tells me you don't build a new container port and then have trains run past Bellevue or Dublin container ports. What would be the point? You don't do that just so we can have a few more locos to spot. Foynes would make more sense

Why Foynes - hardly convenient for Europe? Why not Killybegs while you're at it.

whisky_galore · 26-05-2020 7:49pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Why Foynes - hardly convenient for Europe? Why not Killybegs while you're at it.

To be fair Port of Foynes have been calling for a rail link for years, while you know who that runs Rosslare is happy to make an existing rail link worse than useless.

Jamie2k9 · 03-06-2020 4:28pm

The is not fully sheilved according to this:

In 2023 the line is set to expand further with the addition of a Waterford to Rosslare Greenway, which will run through Bridgetown, Wellington Bridge and Campile in Wexford before connecting with the Waterford-New Ross Greenway in Slieverue.

Cllr Michael Sheehan (Fianna Fáil), details some of the areas that will benefit from the route: “[This project] will be really important for places like Ballykinane and Campile that will follow the old railway tracks and bring a lot of life into those towns. So this is a very important project for the South East.”

https://beat102103.com/news/construction-of-waterford-new-ross-greenway-imminent/

Working class heroes · 03-06-2020 5:24pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The is not fully sheilved according to this:

https://beat102103.com/news/construction-of-waterford-new-ross-greenway-imminent/

That article states the abandonment process is complete.
It’s not.
Doesn’t say much for the rest of it. “Any day now” me arse....

Isambard · 03-06-2020 6:00pm

Working class heroes wrote: »

That article states the abandonment process is complete.
It’s not.
Doesn’t say much for the rest of it. “Any day now” me arse....

New Ross line this is....

Working class heroes · 03-06-2020 10:36pm

Isambard wrote: »

New Ross line this is....

Fair enough.
Probably belongs somewhere else so.

Isambard · 04-06-2020 9:24am

Maybe the title of the thread needs reviewing as all the local Greenway's are linked in ethos even if not on the ground.

Jamie2k9 · 04-06-2020 10:50am

Working class heroes wrote: »

Fair enough.
Probably belongs somewhere else so.

The article covers both, so the bit I quoted was specific to Waterford-Rosslare as councillors had voted a few months ago to not proceed with this however this appears to have changed.

oceanfroggie · 11-07-2020 9:30pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc1prUMDbQA

Only came across this video today. Interesting how it's not possible to leave a comment. I'd be worried for the future of the line save for the fact that Wexford County Council are even more useless than CIE and will probably never get their act together.

Unfortunately the reality is a 'greenway' will bring more profitable revenue into the local economy than a 2600 running twice a day between Wexford and Waterford. A shame to lose this iconic railway line, but unless a profitable service can be run a greenway as scenic as this will bring millions into the economy just like the ones in Westport and Dungarvan did. All year round hospitality businesses benefit hugely. Youghal middleton is a different case as one could argue there could be huge commuter traffic between Cork and Youghal, and therefore worth putting back into rail. Once track is lifted its gone for good. Our population will grow significantly and future generations will not forgive us for lifting now what could be busy commuter lines in the future.

Waterford - Rosslare Greenway

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