Building a fence higher than 2 metres

DeWanderer · 23-05-2020 3:44pm #1

Hello,

TLDNR: can I build a fence on my side of the boundary block wall higher than 2 metres (boundary between my garden and my neighbour's garden)?

Long version!:
I'm aware that the maximum height for a boundary wall or fence is 2 metres in between back gardens.

I've been having an issue with new neighbours, who moved in a few weeks ago. We're in neighbouring semi-detached houses in Dublin.

I don't want to go in to specifics but basically neither us nor our children feel comfortable in our back garden. The neighbour and his friends are the most undesirable you could meet. I'd normally have a friendly chat with people, but believe me, these are the sort where this is impossible.

There is a very low boundary wall and I intend making a higher "screen". It would need to be at least 3 metres high to be effective, due to the lay of the land.

If I build a fence entirely on my side of the boundary would this be against planning at 3 metres?

The fence posts would be concreted into the ground and possibly attached to the wall on my side. I'd probably start the timber panels a couple of feet off the ground, so that the block wall is still the obvious boundary. Also I'd not have the fence the entire length of the wall, as another clear indicator that the fence is not a marking of a new boundary (so that no one could ever knock the wall and claim some of my garden, claiming the fence is the new boundary).

Thanks

BryanF · 24-05-2020 5:50am

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/si/600/made/en/print#sched2

2m max height at rear of house. See class 5

DeWanderer · 24-05-2020 9:04am

BryanF wrote: »

2m max height at rear of house. See class 5

Thanks. I was hoping that if it was fully on my side of the boundary (in my garden) that it could be higher. I'll have to rethink.

sydthebeat · 24-05-2020 9:43am

DeWanderer wrote: »

Thanks. I was hoping that if it was fully on my side of the boundary (in my garden) that it could be higher. I'll have to rethink.

If its fully on your side, then it's not a boundary wall......

Nothing stopping you from applying for permission, or retention permission

GerardKeating · 24-05-2020 11:12am

DeWanderer wrote: »

I don't want to go in to specifics but basically neither us nor our children feel comfortable in our back garden.

Is the issue security or privacy ?

sydthebeat wrote: »

Nothing stopping you from applying for permission, or retention permission

If the "new neighbour and his friends" are as undesirableas the OP suggests, they might object

sydthebeat · 24-05-2020 11:32am

GerardKeating wrote: »

Is the issue security or privacy ?

If the "new neighbour and his friends" are as undesirableas the OP suggests, they might object

as they have the right to... everyone is the same in regards to their rights

thats doesnt at all mean that the development will be refused.

You can build a 3.0m high wall if youre building an extension and the neighbour cannot object, so there is no guarantee that a 3m high screen would be refused

Mellor · 24-05-2020 11:39am

DeWanderer wrote: »

I'm aware that the maximum height for a boundary wall or fence is 2 metres in between back gardens.

That's the height without permission.

There is no maximum possible those.
As suggested, app for permission and go higher if you need to.

GerardKeating wrote: »

If the "new neighbour and his friends" are as undesirableas the OP suggests, they might object

If they are as undesirable as suggest they won't even notice the application going in

DeWanderer · 25-05-2020 9:01am

Thanks for all of the replies. The main issue is privacy. Security hasn't become an issue, as of yet. I'll have a think about it and may go with 2m or put in an application for 2.5m or a bit higher.

JackMN · 28-05-2020 11:25am

DeWanderer wrote: »

Thanks for all of the replies. The main issue is privacy. Security hasn't become an issue, as of yet. I'll have a think about it and may go with 2m or put in an application for 2.5m or a bit higher.

Hi - what did you decide to do? I'm in a similar situation...

Doop · 28-05-2020 12:34pm

Mellor wrote: »

That's the height without permission.

If they are as undesirable as suggest they won't even notice the application going in

I think the above is a very relevant point here... I doubt they would be bothered to inform themselves that your fence is too high... I also cant imagine the county council get many applications for boundary walls within housing estate back gardens.. yet many are over 2m... curious isnt it...;)

Furthermore would you plant something like bamboo which is fast growing and will provide further screening?

Mellor · 28-05-2020 1:24pm

Doop wrote: »

II also cant imagine the county council get many applications for boundary walls within housing estate back gardens.. yet many are over 2m... curious isnt it...;)

Boundary walls as part of the original application are no limited to 2m. Only subsequent walls by owner.

golfhead · 28-05-2020 1:34pm

1. Is planning permission needed to build a wall higher than 2 metres even if your neighbours have no objection?

2. Is PP required if you want to build a 3m wall inside the boundary line and fully on your own property?

sydthebeat · 28-05-2020 1:50pm

golfhead wrote: »

1. Is planning permission needed to build a wall higher than 2 metres even if your neighbours have no objection?

2. Is PP required if you want to build a 3m wall inside the boundary line and fully on your own property?

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

On 2, the only way you can build a 3.0 m high wall is if it's part of an exempt extension

JackMN · 28-05-2020 2:02pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

On 2, the only way you can build a 3.0 m high wall is if it's part of an exempt extension

What about a situation where the ground in one garden is higher than the other? I want to put up a fence that will be 2m tall as measured by my neighbour, but 2.3m tall measured from the garden on my side...

Lumen · 28-05-2020 2:40pm

JackMN wrote: »

What about a situation where the ground in one garden is higher than the other? I want to put up a fence that will be 2m tall as measured by my neighbour, but 2.3m tall measured from the garden on my side...

That would be a 2.3m fence on your side, so requires planning.

You can, AFAIK, build a fence on top of a berm, as long as the berm is less than 1m tall. But I could be wrong on that, I think the regs are worded so as to be a little vague as to where the measurement starts.

JackMN · 28-05-2020 3:08pm

Lumen wrote: »

That would be a 2.3m fence on your side, so requires planning.

You can, AFAIK, build a fence on top of a berm, as long as the berm is less than 1m tall. But I could be wrong on that, I think the regs are worded so as to be a little vague as to where the measurement starts.

Thanks. I've no experience of the process involved so forgive the question: could I put it up at 2.3m as measured from my side and then apply for retention permission, rather than waiting for planning permission to come through? Do you think I should do a section 5?

The 0.3m is the what I need to break eye level contact with the neighbour.

Yellow_Fern · 31-05-2020 9:13pm

What happens when the ground varies a lot on the two sides of the wall?

Lumen · 31-05-2020 9:21pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

What happens when the ground varies a lot on the two sides of the wall?

The height is measured from the lowest point.

Yellow_Fern · 31-05-2020 9:28pm

Lumen wrote: »

The height is measured from the lowest point.

Woah that really is unfortunate. Thanks for the answer

TheW1zard · 01-06-2020 12:03am

What about putting fencing on top of the wall?
So say 500mm fence on a 2m wall?

sasta le · 01-06-2020 12:08am

Can you grow a bush or ivy?

Markcheese · 01-06-2020 12:22am

TheW1zard wrote: »

What about putting fencing on top of the wall?
So say 500mm fence on a 2m wall?

Then that'd be 2.5 meters ....
But as said above ,2 meter fence on a 1 meter eathen bank would probably be classes as 2 meters...

Plants growing up a 2 m fence could easy give you an extra 50 centimeters too... ( And break up a fence line so you don't feel walled in )

sydthebeat · 01-06-2020 1:48am

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

What happens when the ground varies a lot on the two sides of the wall?

You apply for permission.

Planning is not a zero sum game

Mellor · 01-06-2020 4:23am

Lumen wrote: »

The height is measured from the lowest point.

Do you have a reference for that?
It may well exist, but I don't remember any restriction in schedule 2

wotzgoingon · 01-06-2020 4:56am

Reminds me of a neighbour years ago put two extra blocks on the walls in his back garden. I'm pretty sure the wall when finished was over 2m. No planning permission and I doubt anyone informed the council.

Quantum Erasure · 01-06-2020 5:31am

sydthebeat wrote: »

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

On 2, the only way you can build a 3.0 m high wall is if it's part of an exempt extension

what counts as an extension...

Mellor · 01-06-2020 5:40am

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

what counts as an extension...

There's no specific definition of extension in the regulations. But I'd have thought it's a fairly unambiguous term. Not sure what angle you are getting at.

Quantum Erasure · 01-06-2020 5:45am

would just a wall count? (altough i see if over ground floor level it has to be at least 2m from any boundary, so kinda rules that out)

Lumen · 01-06-2020 6:48am

Mellor wrote: »

Do you have a reference for that?
It may well exist, but I don't remember any restriction in schedule 2

If the ground undulates and the fence is straight, the fence will vary in height, and the highest part needs to comply.

If one part contravenes, it needs planning.

Unless you jigsaw the top of the fence...

Even varying the ground level is dodgy, ISTR something about "original ground level".

Of course one could just ask the council....

Lumen · 01-06-2020 6:55am

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

would just a wall count? (altough i see if over ground floor level it has to be at least 2m from any boundary, so kinda rules that out)

The ultimate planning hack is a 4m pitched roof single storey shed, 50cm deep, for example. That will cover 50m of boundary and is exempted development.

Due to the narrow depth the rear wall can be over 3.5m tall.

Your neighbours will love you...

Mellor · 01-06-2020 9:07am

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

would just a wall count? (altough i see if over ground floor level it has to be at least 2m from any boundary, so kinda rules that out)

That wouldn't comply as it's not an extension. It's a wall external to the building

Mellor · 01-06-2020 9:13am

Lumen wrote: »

If the ground undulates and the fence is straight, the fence will vary in height, and the highest part needs to comply.

If one part contravenes, it needs planning.

Unless you jigsaw the top of the fence...

Even varying the ground level is dodgy, ISTR something about "original ground level".

Of course one could just ask the council....

The question wasn't about a wall undulating along it's length, but rather ground being two different levels either side.

Regardless, I was looking for a source, not an explanation. I don't didn't recall any requirements for it to be measured on a certain side of the wall.

Lumen wrote: »

The ultimate planning hack is a 4m pitched roof single storey shed, 50cm deep, for example. That will cover 50m of boundary and is exempted development.

Due to the narrow depth the rear wall can be over 3.5m tall.

Your neighbours will love you...

It might be exempt, but it would also be triple the cost and take but much more space. You would have to be really desperate to do that and knock lots of value off. For the right neighbours guess

Lumen · 01-06-2020 9:41am

Mellor wrote: »

The question wasn't about a wall undulating along it's length, but rather ground being two different levels either side.

The question was:

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

What happens when the ground varies a lot on the two sides of the wall?

Since the earlier question about different levels between sites has been answered, I interpreted that as a question about varying ground levels on a site.

It's a bit difficult to follow these suggestions without diagrams, so maybe I misinterpreted.

Mellor wrote: »

Regardless, I was looking for a source, not an explanation. I don't didn't recall any requirements for it to be measured on a certain side of the wall.

It's obvious to me, without recourse to legislation, that a wall's height is measured from its base at the ground level under it. That seems the very definition of height.

If you want a more empirical approach you could push the wall over and measure it along the ground. :pac:

Lumen · 01-06-2020 9:46am

Mellor wrote: »

It might be exempt, but it would also be triple the cost and take but much more space. You would have to be really desperate to do that and knock lots of value off. For the right neighbours guess

Indeed, but there was a thread on here a while back where someone's neighbour built a tall shed type structure along the entire length of the garden, so it does happen.

Mellor · 01-06-2020 4:26pm

Lumen wrote: »

Since the earlier question about different levels between sites has been answered, I interpreted that as a question about varying ground levels on a site.

It's a bit difficult to follow these suggestions without diagrams, so maybe I misinterpreted.

Well it says the two sides, I'd assume that means the two gardens either side. So I think you misinterpreted.

It's obvious to me, without recourse to legislation, that a wall's height is measured from its base at the ground level under it. That seems the very definition of height.

But the ground on either said is at two different heights, that's the point.

Say we are neighbors, and my garden is 300mm higher than yours.
I build a boundary wall for us. I lay a foundation keep laying courses until the wall is 1900mm high from the top to the ground level in my garden. Based on that it's exempt.
Of course if you measure the wall in your garden, it's obvious 2200mm and not exempt.

It can't be exempt and not exempt. But it's not really clear which is the right application.

Lumen · 01-06-2020 4:57pm

Mellor wrote: »

Say we are neighbors, and my garden is 300mm higher than yours.
I build a boundary wall for us. I lay a foundation keep laying courses until the wall is 1900mm high from the top to the ground level in my garden. Based on that it's exempt.
Of course if you measure the wall in your garden, it's obvious 2200mm and not exempt.

It can't be exempt and not exempt. But it's not really clear which is the right application.

But if your garden is higher, you can't safely build the wall, except on my site. If you built on your side against the boundary with a standard foundation below your ground level, it would fall over on to my site.

The only way for the wall to be built is from the lower side, and that 2200mm is not exempted.

Or at least, that's what my interpretation would be.

Mellor · 02-06-2020 12:41am

Lumen wrote: »

But if your garden is higher, you can't safely build the wall, except on my site. If you built on your side against the boundary with a standard foundation below your ground level, it would fall over on to my site.

The only way for the wall to be built is from the lower side, and that 2200mm is not exempted.

Or at least, that's what my interpretation would be.

No it wouldn't fall over. I'm not sure why up think that.
Foundations goes below ground, to whatever depth is required. That has nothing to do with planning it's a building reg issue.

It's also irrelevant what side the builder stands on to build it the wall. That's a property and access issue.

The fact remains that the wall is 2000mm above GL when measured in my garden. As I said, it's a grey area in the regs.

Lumen · 02-06-2020 9:38am

Mellor wrote: »

As I said, it's a grey area in the regs.

Hmm. I did a quick Google and found this.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/interiors/confused-about-planning-regulations-for-height-of-garden-wall-1.2021574

The most likely interpretation from the planning authority, or An Bord Pleanála on referral, is likely to be that the height of the structure cannot exceed 2m when measured from the ground level outside the site, ie the lower level. This interpretation may be taken in the interests of protecting neighbouring amenities.

The opinion is authored by "John Spain is a member of the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland (SCSI) Planning & Development Professional Group".

I'd ask him to back up his advice but I suspect I'd have to pay for that.

Mellor · 02-06-2020 11:28am

Lumen wrote: »

Hmm. I did a quick Google and found this.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/interiors/confused-about-planning-regulations-for-height-of-garden-wall-1.2021574

The opinion is authored by "John Spain is a member of the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland (SCSI) Planning & Development Professional Group".

I'd ask him to back up his advice but I suspect I'd have to pay for that.

That makes sense, the impact outside the site but it still creates the weird anomaly in the me and you example.
I could build a 1.7m wall - 2.0m outside my site (ie in your garden)
You could build a 2.3m wall - 2.0m outside your site (ie in my garden).

Yakov P. Golyadkin · 11-06-2020 2:25pm

A little late to the show but I believe this situation is catered for in the regulations -

"In Schedule 2... Any reference to the height of a structure... shall be construed as a reference to its height when measured from ground level... Or, where the level of the ground... is not uniform, the level of the lowest part of the ground adjacent to it."

Part 2, Article 5(2).

Building a fence higher than 2 metres

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