'Ireland is the most corrupt country in the Western world'

EdgeCase · 14-09-2018 1:51pm

It has issues with corruption, but they’re not off to scale by any means. I’d see Ireland as somewhere with a lot of new transparency and a general intolerance of corruption that’s growing a lot in recent years.

Ireland has plenty of examples of showing it was willing to stick to the rule of law against major corporations - see: Apple planning case and plenty of others.

There’s no question but that some of the systems need root and branch reform, both for the public good and even their own good. I mean it must be very undermining of Garda morale for example to have all of those issues in the background.

You'll always get scandals and individual or small groups of people behaving badly within any organisation. The key is that the structures and systems within the organisation are both properly designed and thought out to ensure that they can deal with it when it does occur and that they're beyond repute and totally transparent.

You can't just assume that people will always behave in the national interest and I think we've been overreliant on an assumption that that is always the case in a whole load of areas. You can see it on an extreme level in the US presidency at the moment.

The system is making assumptions about the motives and ability of office holders being absolutely noble and has very few real measures to deal with a presidency gone rogue.

The areas where you will always get corruption risks are where there's unaccountable power be it a president, a police officer or a local bureaucrat stamping forms. You need accountable systems.

rossie1977 · 14-09-2018 1:54pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

the US only ranks so well because they have legalised what any other nation would label totally corrupt i.e. their system of political lobbying

Yes the US would be the most corrupt in the western world were it not for that. Politicians over there are bought and sold for. The Kochs paid Paul Ryan $500,000 just days after the Trump tax bill was passed.

There is no need for brown envelopes under the desk in us politics as its all out in the open and legal.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-09-2018 1:55pm

Augeo wrote: »

No, it doesn't.
Just because you say so on a forum doesn't make it true You aren't Judge Judy

Not at all, good (ish) attempt at shoehorning though.

How social welfare fraud (wasters receiving JSA etc etc isn't considered corruption I can't fathom.

Delt with. Gave you factual definition. Nothing to do with my opinion. It;s what the word means. Here it is again.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Again, shoe-horning.

Corruption is abuse of power. Meaning you have to have power in the first place in order to be corrupted. And those in power can only be corrupted by someone who has influence or money to offer.

In other words, not those on the dole.

QED. Done here. Take it to the abolish-the-dole thread,

14-09-2018 1:57pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

...... absolute bollocks.

..........

I missed this edit.
4 mins after you posted so easy to do.

You seem a tad agitated. Chill Judy, chill.

EdgeCase · 14-09-2018 1:57pm

You have to remember those corruption indices are about perception rather than any measurable reality.

If you'd asked people about the Catholic Church in the 1950s your have had stories of saintly nuns and general loveliness. Perceptions can be very surface deep and they are highly influenced by culture and access to information.

14-09-2018 1:58pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

D.....

QED......,

Again, you aren't Judge Judy

scamalert · 14-09-2018 2:04pm

Ireland has its fare share of corruption but public also closes its eyes to it, most take it as it comes. Public sector is the worst and the best for those to make money as its cash cow with all the funds of EU and taxes few manage to rake.

That aside if you talk guards are bad you never left the country, plenty of way worse goverments and corruption all across EU not to mention states etc, country is bad but on its own level compared to other countries Ireland is a saint.

EdgeCase · 14-09-2018 2:14pm

I think the main issue is about complacency and I think that's changed a lot.
People don't stand for lack of transparency these days and I think that's why you're seeing the scandals finally emerge into the light.

Present day Irish culture (and this has been measured scientifically) is actually not very deferential to power or hierarchy. So these things are challenged.

It's noteworthy that the most complained about organisations are all very old and originate in a different era of Ireland.

The management structures in the Guards for example evolved from the old RIC as did the RUC. The RUC was scrutinised and drastically resigned as the PSNI as a knock on of the peace process up North. The same didn't happen south of the border.

The health system gets complained about a lot too and again it's made up of unaccountable trusts and "voluntary" sector agencies, almost entirely state funded and funded from insurance premia, yet highly unaccountable.
Again, it's a vestage of the 19th century and in many cases old Poor Law type organisations that were allows to evolved rather than ever facing serious reform.

Even the planning system issues came down to a total lack of accountability. The structures are or were all wrong.

We need to keep being critical and putting political pressure on to ensure that all of this stuff is reformed and made for purpose in the modern world.

I don't see why Ireland shouldn't be leading the tables on anti corruption. We have all the resources and motivations to be doing similarly well to New Zealand or Denmark on this stuff.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-09-2018 2:35pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

I think the main issue is about complacency and I think that's changed a lot.
People don't stand for lack of transparency these days and I think that's why you're seeing the scandals finally emerge into the light.

Present day Irish culture (and this has been measured scientifically) is actually not very deferential to power or hierarchy. So these things are challenged.

It's noteworthy that the most complained about organisations are all very old and originate in a different era of Ireland.

The management structures in the Guards for example evolved from the old RIC as did the RUC. The RUC was scrutinised and drastically resigned as the PSNI as a knock on of the peace process up North. The same didn't happen south of the border.

The health system gets complained about a lot too and again it's made up of unaccountable trusts and "voluntary" sector agencies, almost entirely state funded and funded from insurance premia, yet highly unaccountable.
Again, it's a vestage of the 19th century and in many cases old Poor Law type organisations that were allows to evolved rather than ever facing serious reform.

Even the planning system issues came down to a total lack of accountability. The structures are or were all wrong.

We need to keep being critical and putting political pressure on to ensure that all of this stuff is reformed and made for purpose in the modern world.

I don't see why Ireland shouldn't be leading the tables on anti corruption. We have all the resources and motivations to be doing similarly well to New Zealand or Denmark on this stuff.

True - since Fianna Fail imploded it's been a lot harder for corrupt politicians to get away with things.

With the guards, again - a lot more things are being reported it would seem, making them think twice.

As to why we're not leading the tables - well, apparently it's the guards (again) and a general lack of comfort amongst potential whilstleblowers.
Full details here:
https://www.transparency.org/news/pressrelease/you_are_here_transparency_international_ireland_publishes_speak_up_report_2

RobMc59 · 14-09-2018 2:46pm

I`m not Irish and I`ve never heard any stories about Ireland being a corrupt country,on the contrary,Ireland has a good reputation-in regards to the allegations about the Church-well that`s the same in all countries...

gozunda · 14-09-2018 2:58pm

Least we forget - here are just some of the major corruption scandals and their aftermath in the last 30 years

In 1995 Denis O'Brien was suspected of bribing Fine Gael government TD and Minister for Communications Michael Lowry. The license procurement, which ultimately made O'Brien one of the richest men in Ireland, was proven to be corrupt in an investigation by the Moriarty Tribunal in 1997.

The McCracken Tribunal was an inquiry into the financial affairs of politicians Charles Haughey and Michael Lowry. It started in February 1997 to investigate reports of secret payments by Ben Dunne to former Taoiseach, Charles Haughey and former cabinet minister Michael Lowry. A report from the Tribunal found that Haughey had given untrue evidence under oath and that Lowry was knowingly assisted by Dunne in evading tax. As a result of the findings and revelation of substantial funds in secret Ansbacher accounts, owned by Haughey, the new Ahern Government established a more extensive follow-up, the Moriarty Tribunal to investigate the financial affairs of the two politicians.

The Mahon Tribunal. The tribunal ran from November 1997 to March 2012 and was the longest running and most expensive public inquiry ever held in the Republic of Ireland. This inquiry was to investigate allegations of corrupt payments to politicians regarding political decisions and planning permissions and land rezoning issues in the 1990s in the Dublin County Council area. Findings of corruption were made against 11 councillors, due to court proceedings only 6 were named

The FÁS expenses scandal happened in Ireland in November/December 2008. The scandal first emerged in June 2008 when the Dáil was informed that gardaí were investigating the alleged misappropriate use of funds by a senior executive within FÁS. A number of high profile resignations followed after revelations that FÁS executives spent hundreds of thousands of euro belonging to the company on lavish holidays to the United States, which included first-class travel and expensive rounds of golf.

The Morris Tribunal in 2002 was a public inquiry to address allegations of the 1990s and early 2000s against the Garda Síochána. Subjects explored included suggestions of corrupt and dishonest policing in County Donegal but its recommendations and conclusions have more widespread consequences and importance.it investigated the case of Frank McBrearty Snr from Co Donegal was the victim of harassment following the death of Richie Barron. He was awarded nearly €2.5 million euro in compensation by the Irish High Court.

In 2014, material revealed by two Garda Síochána whistleblowers, Maurice McCabe and John Wilson, as well as the handling of the material and of the whistleblowers, led directly to the resignation of Ireland's then Minister for Justice and Equality, Alan Shatter. It was also part of the background leading up to the resignation of the Garda Commissioner, Martin Callinan. It was also part of the reason for the retirement of his successor Nóirín O'Sullivan.

In the period 2009- 2017 it was revealed that Gardaí had exaggerated the number of breath tests carried out by 1.45 million over a seven-year period, a report found that 3,498,400 breath tests were recorded on the Garda’s Pulse computer system, when only 2,040,179 were recorded on alcohol testing devices.This represents a discrepancy of 1,458,221 breath tests.

A number of former executives of Anglo Irish Bank were charged in July 2012 with unlawfully helping a group of investors to buy shares in the lender in 2008, falsely inflating the share price before the bank was nationalised in 2009. The bank later collapsed, a key reason Dublin was forced to accept a €67.5bn bailout from the EU and International Monetary Fund.

Also Seán FitzPatrick head of Anglo Irish Bank from 1986 until 2008, resigned after it emerged he had taken secret loans worth €155 million from the bank, hiding them from auditors for 8 years. He later defaulted on these loans due to the Global Recession and has since been unable to repay his debts, although he retired from his position with a pension of €4 million a year

And so it goes on ...

And this is only a partial list and notably excludes those who were not caught or where corruption remains uninvestigated.

Hector Bellend · 14-09-2018 3:18pm

Have a corrupt ****

donspeekinglesh · 14-09-2018 3:36pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

the political lobbying system in the US is mind boggling when you look into it. Companies literally pay for legislation.

In some cases they even write it.

rossie1977 · 14-09-2018 3:45pm

gozunda wrote: »

Least we forget - here are just some of the major corruption scandals and their aftermath in the last 30 years

Nobody is saying there was no corruption in Ireland, but let's just compare to say New Jersey since 2000.

Between 2000 and 2010 almost 150 of the states senators, mayor's, county executives and council members were arrested and charged with corruption.

A investigation found that New Jersey government spent $42 million so far this decade to cover up some 200 claims into deaths, physical abuse and sexual misconduct at the hands of rogue police officers.

Chris Christie the former governer was involved in numerous incidents like Bridgegate, closing all beaches to public while he and his family were photographed on one of said closed beaches. A member of his team was charged with bribing an airline to fly direct to South Carolina so that he could get quicker access to his vacation home.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 14-09-2018 3:47pm

Italy must be the most corrupt country in Europe.

The south is practically run by the mob. They infiltrate all sorts of high level commerce and public institutions.

archer22 · 14-09-2018 4:05pm

I think what happened to Maurice McCabe and other honest people who tried to expose corruption in Ireland tells you more about the dept and extent of it here than any "corruption index".

Sycamore Tree · 14-09-2018 4:40pm

gozunda wrote: »

Least we forget - here are just some of the major corruption scandals and their aftermath in the last 30 years

In 1995 Denis O'Brien was suspected of bribing Fine Gael government TD and Minister for Communications Michael Lowry. The license procurement, which ultimately made O'Brien one of the richest men in Ireland, was proven to be corrupt in an investigation by the Moriarty Tribunal in 1997.

The McCracken Tribunal was an inquiry into the financial affairs of politicians Charles Haughey and Michael Lowry. It started in February 1997 to investigate reports of secret payments by Ben Dunne to former Taoiseach, Charles Haughey and former cabinet minister Michael Lowry. A report from the Tribunal found that Haughey had given untrue evidence under oath and that Lowry was knowingly assisted by Dunne in evading tax. As a result of the findings and revelation of substantial funds in secret Ansbacher accounts, owned by Haughey, the new Ahern Government established a more extensive follow-up, the Moriarty Tribunal to investigate the financial affairs of the two politicians.

The Mahon Tribunal. The tribunal ran from November 1997 to March 2012 and was the longest running and most expensive public inquiry ever held in the Republic of Ireland. This inquiry was to investigate allegations of corrupt payments to politicians regarding political decisions and planning permissions and land rezoning issues in the 1990s in the Dublin County Council area. Findings of corruption were made against 11 councillors, due to court proceedings only 6 were named

The FÁS expenses scandal happened in Ireland in November/December 2008. The scandal first emerged in June 2008 when the Dáil was informed that gardaí were investigating the alleged misappropriate use of funds by a senior executive within FÁS. A number of high profile resignations followed after revelations that FÁS executives spent hundreds of thousands of euro belonging to the company on lavish holidays to the United States, which included first-class travel and expensive rounds of golf.

The Morris Tribunal in 2002 was a public inquiry to address allegations of the 1990s and early 2000s against the Garda Síochána. Subjects explored included suggestions of corrupt and dishonest policing in County Donegal but its recommendations and conclusions have more widespread consequences and importance.it investigated the case of Frank McBrearty Snr from Co Donegal was the victim of harassment following the death of Richie Barron. He was awarded nearly €2.5 million euro in compensation by the Irish High Court.

In 2014, material revealed by two Garda Síochána (Irish police) whistleblowers, Maurice McCabe and John Wilson, as well as the handling of the material and of the whistleblowers, led directly to the resignation of Ireland's then Minister for Justice and Equality, Alan Shatter. It was also part of the background leading up to the resignation of the Garda Commissioner, Martin Callinan. It was also part of the reason for the retirement of his successor Nóirín O'Sullivan.

In the period 2009- 2017 it was revealed that Gardaí had exaggerated the number of breath tests carried out by 1.45 million over a seven-year period, a report found that 3,498,400 breath tests were recorded on the Garda’s Pulse computer system, when only 2,040,179 were recorded on alcohol testing devices.This represents a discrepancy of 1,458,221 breath tests.

A number of formet executives of Anglo Irish Bank were charged in July 2012 with unlawfully helping a group of investors to buy shares in the lender in 2008, falsely inflating the share price before the bank was nationalised in 2009. The bank later collapsed, a key reason Dublin was forced to accept a €67.5bn bailout from the EU and International Monetary Fund.

Also Seán FitzPatrick head of Anglo Irish Bankfrom 1986 until 2008, resigned after it emerged he had taken secret loans worth €155 million from the bank, hiding them from auditors for 8 years. He later defaulted on these loans due to the Global Recession and has since been unable to repay his debts, although he retired from his position with a pension of €4 million a year

And so it goes on ...

And this is only a partial list and notably excludes those who were not caught or where corruption remains uninvestigated.

Great post. A trip down corruption lane...

EdgeCase · 14-09-2018 4:44pm

Police corruption happens all over the world. It doesn't excuse it in Ireland, but it's far from unique to here.

What is key is that we find out what happened, learn from it and actually change the system and bring people to account. There's no point in just being outraged by it. The system needs to be held accountable where it's failed.

No system is perfect and police corruption is, sadly, far from unusual, even in very developed countries.

I mean look at France, you'd a situation where there were incidents of police being involved in drug dealing.

See : Le Nouvel Observateur (L'Obs)

https://www.nouvelobs.com/rue89/rue89-nos-vies-connectees/20081026.RUE6318/strasbourg-le-superflic-accuse-d-avoir-tourne-au-superdealer.html

and there's been far worse than that too, particularly involving police brutality targeting ethnic minorities.

Over in England, the Met is currently investigating its anti-corruption unit for corruption:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/22/metropolitan-police-anti-corruption-unit-faces-investigation

Then if you've a look at the USA you've not only police corruption but also extreme violence and Robocop like approaches to everything.

There are plenty of places, including in parts of Europe (at least according to research done by the EU), where it's not unusual to be asked to pay bribes by public officials. Ireland wasn't one of those.

Corruption needs to be tackled, but I just think we also need to see it in context. It's a problem that's quite solvable and I think this notion that it's somehow unique to Ireland or cultural, is just nonsense. Systems that aren't transparent and aren't accountable are prone to being abused and that's just the reality of it.

You solve the problems by removing the dark shadows and nobody should ever have absolute power. It's pretty obvious that it corrupts absolutely. There are countless examples of this.

Have a browse of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_corruption - I know it's just Wiki, but it's a good aggregator of the issue around the world.

gozunda · 14-09-2018 6:01pm

rossie1977 wrote: »

Nobody is saying there was no corruption in Ireland, but let's just compare to say New Jersey since 2000.

Between 2000 and 2010 almost 150 of the states senators, mayor's, county executives and council members were arrested and charged with corruption.

A investigation found that New Jersey government spent $42 million so far this decade to cover up some 200 claims into deaths, physical abuse and sexual misconduct at the hands of rogue police officers.

Chris Christie the former governer was involved in numerous incidents like Bridgegate, closing all beaches to public while he and his family were photographed on one of said closed beaches. A member of his team was charged with bribing an airline to fly direct to South Carolina so that he could get quicker access to his vacation home.

Yeah I get it - however it's not a competition. Between 1995 and today practically every elected government of the country has been involved one way or another either investigating or defending corruption and accountability. Numerous scandals involving elected councillors, state agencies, religous institutions including the death and abuse of children etc etc have been outed with many yet to be properly investigated. It's still going on and appears to be little will or desire to change the status quo especially where it encourages a few to benefit at the cost of many.

dxhound2005 · 14-09-2018 6:05pm

scamalert wrote: »

Ireland has its fare share of corruption but public also closes its eyes to it, most take it as it comes. Public sector is the worst and the best for those to make money as its cash cow with all the funds of EU and taxes few manage to rake.

That aside if you talk guards are bad you never left the country, plenty of way worse goverments and corruption all across EU not to mention states etc, country is bad but on its own level compared to other countries Ireland is a saint.

If Ireland is the most corrupt country, that means Irish people are the most corrupt people. Just by sheer numbers there are bound to be many more corrupt people in the private sector, which accounts for more than 80% of workers and bosses.

To me the most corrupt people would gravitate to where there is the most money. The top brass in the private sector take home easily 20 times as much as any person in politics or the public sector generally. And they are not subject to so much scrutiny like that from SIPO or the various oversight bodies regulating the Gardai.

archer22 · 14-09-2018 7:28pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If Ireland is the most corrupt country, that means Irish people are the most corrupt people. Just by sheer numbers there are bound to be many more corrupt people in the private sector, which accounts for more than 80% of workers and bosses.

To me the most corrupt people would gravitate to where there is the most money. The top brass in the private sector take home easily 20 times as much as any person in politics or the public sector generally. And they are not subject to so much scrutiny like that from SIPO or the various oversight bodies regulating the Gardai.

Yeah plenty of them across the private sector as well,their names are well known.

Business interests, Banking and charities...including one of the biggest scams in world history the Irish Hospital Sweepstakes...a scam that was perpetrated by private businessmen with the connivance of the Irish government to rip off millions of people around the world, plus ripping off their own staff and the hospitals they were supposed to be helping.
And then there was the journalist who exposed it..he ended up shunned by all and sundry and had to leave Ireland to find employment.
Which exposes the lapdog attitude of a large segment of the media in Ireland who will hang their own out to dry if they dare step on the toes of the powerful and rich.

derfderf · 17-09-2018 1:15pm

gozunda wrote: »

Yeah I get it - however it's not a competition.

The thread title kind of makes it a competition. The question is are we winning.

gozunda · 17-09-2018 1:43pm

derfderf wrote: »

The thread title kind of makes it a competition. The question is are we winning.

What that specifically referred to was other posters example of corruption as if that somehow excuses corruption here

Looking at even at a small section of the history of corruption even without comparison with others - there is some serious ****e going on in this country...

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057867072/3/#post108080681

El_Duderino 09 · 17-09-2018 5:11pm

I have haven’t read the whole thread but has anyone pointed out that there’s an actual measure of national corruption?

Transparent international does the analysis
https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2017

Ireland is 19th least corrupt country in the world. Room for improvements but not bad by any means. And we’re far from the most corrupt country in the West.

It’s important to always spot the weaknesses so we can deal with them, but it’s also important to be grateful for the fact that we live in an incredibly well run part of the world.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 17-09-2018 5:47pm

gozunda wrote: »

What that specifically referred to was other posters example of corruption as if that somehow excuses corruption here

Looking at even at a small section of the history of corruption even without comparison with others - there is some serious ****e going on in this country...

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057867072/3/#post108080681

The title invites comparisons with other countries.

The US, home of Lehman’s, bought and paid for politicians, bailouts and about a missing trillion in the pentagon budget is worse than Ireland. The EU can’t audit their budget.

The U.K. is marginally better and Sweden is historically better. That’s about it.

gozunda · 17-09-2018 5:51pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The title invites comparisons with other countries.
The US, home of Lehman’s, bought and paid for politicians, bailouts and about a missing trillion in the pentagon budget is worse than Ireland. The EU can’t audit their budget.
The U.K. is marginally better and Sweden is historically better. That’s about it.

It does but that's what the comments you jumped on were about capiche?

Again much of it is relative - it depends what you compare and who you compare ..

c montgomery · 17-09-2018 5:51pm

See below corruption index

Ireland is 19 out of 180 countries with 1 being least corrupt and 180 most corrupt.

https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2017#table

Franz Von Peppercorn · 17-09-2018 5:55pm

gozunda wrote: »

It does but that's what the comments were about capiche?

Again much of it is relative - it depends what you compare and who you compare ..

That’s exactly what we are doing. And of course it’s relative. The title invites relative comparisons with the western world.

That said the 180 countries most if the least corrupt countries are western. If someone had the time they could world out where ireland was in that western list.

The U.K. is 8th by comparison.

gozunda · 17-09-2018 6:27pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That’s exactly what we are doing. And of course it’s relative. The title invites relative comparisons with the western world.That said the 180 countries most if the least corrupt countries are western. If someone had the time they could world out where ireland was in that western list. The U.K. is 8th by comparison.

You are perhaps. I'm not getting into semantics. If you'd like to change the original comments. Creative writing =>

gozunda · 17-09-2018 6:28pm

c montgomery wrote: »

See below corruption index
Ireland is 19 out of 180 countries with 1 being least corrupt and 180 most corrupt.
https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2017#table

Read the thread from the begining. That was posted over 5 months ago ...

dxhound2005 · 17-09-2018 7:54pm

The results are from what some people perceive, not any proven corruption.

The index, which ranks 180 countries and territories by their perceived levels of public sector corruption according to experts and businesspeople, uses a scale of 0 to 100, where 0 is highly corrupt and 100 is very clean.

And those business people do not perceive any corruption in the business community. Like I said before the most of the corruption must reside in the private sector. For every corrupt Garda taking money from a journalist, there is the corrupt journalist and his corrupt editor and managers. For every corrupt planner taking a brown envelope, there is a corrupt builder and his corrupt associates.

NIMAN · 20-09-2018 2:49pm

Where is NI on that list?

I see less than 10% of people in his constituency thought Ian Paisley Jnr did anything wrong by accepting freebie family holidays and not declaring them.

If he had been in England he'd be out of a job now, but no NI is so fecked no-one thinks he did anything wrong.

Zebra3 · 20-09-2018 3:30pm

Nobody thinks of NI as a country.

'Ireland is the most corrupt country in the Western world'

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