'Ireland is the most corrupt country in the Western world'

01-05-2018 11:05am

EdgeCase wrote: »

China's a TERRIBLE example of how to deal with corruption.

China's anti-corruption movement is a political scheme to remove the power against Xi. All of his opponents have gradually been removed within the last decade under corruption charges, and business owners are being brought into line with the new party mandate (or rather his mandate).

China's corruption is inherent to their culture. Students bribe teachers for better exam results. People looking for work will give gifts to prospective employers for jobs. Internal promotions are closely connected to your family connections and the bribes. Being charged by the police and the sentencing of crimes is extremely reliant on your ability to bribe someone. Police will stop foreigners as passport checks looking for bribes leading up to the main festivals, and have their own quotas of bribes to send back up to their superiors. The Chinese stock exchange was government regulated with "tips" given to their friends/family, resulting in huge profits for the rich and massive losses for the poor.

China is definitely not the place to highlight for anti-corruption. God, I love that country. Such a fascinating culture.

badtoro · 01-05-2018 11:53am

Kotek Besar wrote: »

In Ireland, there may or may not be clearly published rules in black and white, but regardless, Irish officials tend to adopt a more "grey area" approach to matters. The attitude is more "ah sure, send it in and we'll have a look for you so". This is problematic as you never really know where you stand.

Interpretations.

This is where you take a rule, regulation, or law, and subtly slightly change it for effect.

brainfreeze · 01-05-2018 12:39pm

No it's not.

In the corruption index, from 0 to most corrupt and 100 least. Ireland scores 74.

The Western Europe average is 64, and Western Europe is the highest ranking area on the planet.

We are not even remotely close to being the most corrupt. Globally, Europe, Western Europe, or even "the western world".

01-05-2018 12:43pm

brainfreeze wrote: »

We are not even remotely close to being the most corrupt. Globally, Europe, Western Europe, or even "the western world".

I have through work, two colleagues, one from Greece and one from Venezuela

They can tell me hair raising stories of corruption on an absolutely epic scale if I ask. :pac:

CrankyHaus · 01-05-2018 1:00pm

brainfreeze wrote: »

No it's not.

In the corruption index, from 0 to most corrupt and 100 least. Ireland scores 74.

The Western Europe average is 64, and Western Europe is the highest ranking area on the planet.

We are not even remotely close to being the most corrupt. Globally, Europe, Western Europe, or even "the western world".

Have a look at how the Corruption index is calculated. It aggregates surveys by other bodies such as the Economist Intelligence Unit, which have biases of their own. So it's as much an accurate measure of corruption as a Rotten Tomatoes score is accurately a measure of how good a film is (so Get Out is the third best film of all time ¯\_(ツ)_/¯).

It also excludes private corruption, so Libor fiddling, the VW emissions fixing or the long record of dodgy dealings in Ireland's financial sector are ignored.

Overall it's a useful tool but it's far from the whole story and doesn't claim to be. It's particularly unsuitable for quantifying the type of legal corruption prevalent in Ireland.

brainfreeze · 01-05-2018 1:02pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Have a look at how the Corruption index is calculated. It aggregates surveys by other bodies such as the Economist Intelligence Unit, which have biases of their own. So it's as much an accurate measure of corruption as a Rotten Tomatoes score is accurately a measure of how good a film is (so Get Out is the third best film of all time ¯\_(ツ)_/¯).

It also excludes private corruption, so Libor fiddling, the VW emissions fixing or the long record of dodgy dealings in Ireland's financial sector are ignored.

Overall it's a useful tool but it's far from the whole story and doesn't claim to be. It's particularly unsuitable for quantifying the type of legal corruption prevalent in Ireland.

Still far more reliable than the headline of this thread.

EdgeCase · 01-05-2018 1:05pm

It's only a perception index.

ghostdancer · 01-05-2018 2:06pm

the only people who think this is a particularly corrupt country (see also: a sh1thole) are thick fcuks who get their opinions from facebook and the lad at the end of the bar, or tabloids which are aimed at morons incapable of thinking.

Ireland is by far one of the better countries in the world to live in, judged on most individual metrics, and is consistently near the top when all are combined.

unless of course you'd prefer to believe some d1ckhead in the Irish Mirror over people who actually know what they're talking about.

gozunda · 01-05-2018 2:28pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

We don't have that much illegal corruption, like bribery demands from the police and public service.
Compared to peer countries we do have unusually high amounts of legal corruption, morally corrupt behaviour that falls just inside the law.
This is the 'who you know' culture that people who have moved here from abroad, say the UK, told me they find strange.
A lot of Irish people are beneficiaries of this system which is why so many shout down any criticism of it.
I found a thread here on Boards on the faked Garda breathalyser figures to be a fascinating insight into this mentality. Many people, who from their other posts appear to be well inside the Irish system, were passionately arguing that nothing could be done to discipline Gardai falsifying figures and that nothing should be done.

To make a complaint concerning many of the semi state and governent agencies requires that the complaint be forwarded to the same department who are subject of the complaint.

With regard to this lack of independence or transparancy of process - complaints are frequently dealt with by those who have more of a vested interest in making the complaints disappear than dealing with them fairly.

Making a complaint in Ireland remains largely pointless unless you have the resources to go down the legal route and seek redress

Not many do in my experience but those that do get vilified.

Clareside · 13-09-2018 10:30pm

Corruption is endemic in Ireland from the smallest corridors to the largest corridors. I grew up in an Irish pub so I knew that from a young age. I'm glad I didn't have a crystal ball back then to see how the time would come that that evil would visit my home and rip my family to shreds all because I wouldn't "play the game" as the solicitors quaintly refer to it.
I have been to every level of the Irish judicial system "in camera" to protect the state of course with no joy. Now i have submitted an application to the E.C.H.R.
If you haven t first hand experience of corruption and its consequences in this country then you are blessed but please don't deny its existence to those of us living through the hell of it every day.

Wheeliebin30 · 13-09-2018 10:32pm

Clareside wrote: »

Corruption is endemic in Ireland from the smallest corridors to the largest corridors. I grew up in an Irish pub so I knew that from a young age. I'm glad I didn't have a crystal ball back then to see how the time would come that that evil would visit my home and rip my family to shreds all because I wouldn't "play the game" as the solicitors quaintly refer to it.
I have been to every level of the Irish judicial system "in camera" to protect the state of course with no joy. Now i have submitted an application to the E.C.H.R.
If you haven t first hand experience of corruption and its consequences in this country then you are blessed but please don't deny its existence to those of us living through the hell of it every day.

Cool story bro.

gozunda · 14-09-2018 2:21am

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Cool story bro.

Whether a story or otherwise - you only have to go to Donegal for a real situation to that outlined tbh. The McBrearty case there is just one of many ....

DChancer · 14-09-2018 7:39am

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Id add Malta, Greece, Spain to that list

Lets not Forget both France and Germany where Political Partys and Politicans including Mitterand, Sarkozy and Kohl were up to eyes in graft!

fyfe79 · 14-09-2018 7:46am

valoren wrote: »

You know those scenes around election time where the elected TD is elated and carried on the shoulders of others? Every time I see that I think they aren't happy that now they've been elected they look forward to the prospect of serving their constituents and making a difference but rather they are now on the gravy train with guaranteed pension nest eggs.

Alan Kelly when he was re-elected last time on a re-count. Looked like he was about to give himself a hernia with his pure elation. One of the most self-serving politicians I've ever seen. Like Lowry, another proud Tipp man!

patmac · 14-09-2018 7:52am

We are probably one the most transparent, pc, liberal countries in the world now, which means it almost impossible to get anything done due to red tape and the fear of offending anyone.

Gimme A Pound · 14-09-2018 8:01am

Has there been corruption in Ireland? Yes, a good bit unfortunately.

Is Ireland the most corrupt country in the western world? Nowhere near it. Idiocy.

People have got to stop lying. Information distortion is at worrying levels.

The Bishop Basher · 14-09-2018 8:20am

Personally, I would regard the police force of any country as a fairly good barometer as to the level of corruption in that state..

Garda corruption in Ireland is off the scale and absolutely nothing ever gets done about it. We just stick in a new commissioner to help cover up the previous commissioners cover ups.

Our Garda force has been embroiled in massive scandals for over 50 years now and nothing has changed.

Breath tests are merely the tip of the rotten ice berg, we have so many other examples of state backed corruption, but the breath test scandal proved that we're not just talking about a couple of rotten apples. It's the entire force from the top down.

And that's before we even start to look at the corruption scandals and cover ups within government circles over those same decades..

How anyone can claim we aren't an incredibly corrupt little backwater of a nation is beyond me..

beauf · 14-09-2018 8:34am

patmac wrote: »

We are probably one the most transparent, pc, liberal countries in the world now, which means it almost impossible to get anything done due to red tape and the fear of offending anyone.

You're not paying the right people.

beauf · 14-09-2018 8:47am

Gerald Crashing Equalizer wrote: »

Has there been corruption in Ireland? Yes, a good bit unfortunately.

Is Ireland the most corrupt country in the western world? Nowhere near it. Idiocy.

People have got to stop lying. Information distortion is at worrying levels.

If not the worst Ireland is certainly on par on a par with many countries. Any scandal is no longer shocking as it's usually turns out to be worst case scenario. Anyone go to jail usually not. If you want to get things done, a bit of influence on the background usually gets it done. In some cases People have to leave the country to get the medical care they can't get access to here.

We have a veneer of a working system. Don't have to scratch too far to see the reality.

Kivaro · 14-09-2018 9:35am

beauf wrote: »

We have a veneer of a working system. Don't have to scratch too far to see the reality.

Bingo.
It's rotten at the core. Just look at the solicitor's profession, the judiciary, the Guards; too little separation for a transparent, impartial system.
The insurance industry: it is a cartel and their business practices should be illegal.
The current political system in Ireland is a farce, with no real opportunity for change.
And there are many other examples in Irish life.

Guess who pays/suffers the most due to this corruption?
The tax-paying man and woman who works earnestly for a living

Gimme A Pound · 14-09-2018 9:49am

Rennaws wrote: »

How anyone can claim we aren't an incredibly corrupt little backwater of a nation is beyond me..

Why do Irish people have to be so derogatory about us though? And "we" all over the place. They're not referring to themselves however.

I'd say nobody is deluded enough to believe there's little to no corruption here, but what people are simply disagreeing with is the hyperbole - the misrepresentation of Ireland as far far more corrupt than it actually is. Another example of such nonsense is "Ireland is like a third world country" from people enjoying a quality of life those in the third world couldn't even dream of.

It's part of a narrative to put down Irish people by themselves. Post colonial hangover I guess.

The response to the above view is usually "Oh so we can't criticise?" Absolutely criticise, absolutely express dissatisfaction - unlike the people in many countries, we can do that. But have some perspective.

beauf · 14-09-2018 10:03am

Theres no hyperbole without fire.

suicide_circus · 14-09-2018 10:08am

the political lobbying system in the US is mind boggling when you look into it. Companies literally pay for legislation.

_Brian · 14-09-2018 10:13am

We get regular correspondence from politicians canvassing for favours in our office.
My boss shreds every one and if it persists candidates are no longer considered for positions.

zell12 · 14-09-2018 10:14am

patmac wrote: »

We are probably one the most transparent, pc, liberal countries in the world now, which means it almost impossible to get anything done due to red tape and the fear of offending anyone.

Look at the cervical smear scandal and the zero transparency and still the cover-ups

Wibbs · 14-09-2018 10:15am

Gerald Crashing Equalizer wrote: »

People have got to stop lying. Information distortion is at worrying levels.

Quoted for truth. Though people for the most part aren't lying, they genuinely believe this kinda stuff to be true. There's a weird paranoia afoot, mostly on the interwebs, but even in Real Life™ to some degree.

gandalf · 14-09-2018 10:20am

Is there corruption in Ireland undoubtedly there is. Are we the most corrupt nation in the Western world we aren't by a long shot. That narrative is an absolute fallacy pushed by fringe elements in society.

Should we strive and work towards a society free of corruption, of course we should but people need to stop with the amateur dramatics!

derfderf · 14-09-2018 10:41am

suicide_circus wrote: »

the political lobbying system in the US is mind boggling when you look into it. Companies literally pay for legislation.

A governor brought in drug testing for people on welfare, and awarded the testing contract to a company owned by his wife.
They don't even try to hide it over there, people don't even realise it's actually corrupt.

14-09-2018 11:08am

gozunda wrote: »

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Cool story bro.

Whether a story or otherwise - you only have to go to Donegal for a real situation to that outlined tbh. The McBrearty case there is just one of many ....

The cost of the Morris Tribunal was approx €70 million to the taxpayer.

Kivaro · 14-09-2018 11:10am

Ireland is not the most corrupt country in the Western World.
But there is a lot of corruption in the country in all facets of living here.
Then you have the nepotism and cronyism, which is particularly prevalent mainly (in my opinion) due to the small size of the country.

You could ask yourself why Ireland is so attractive to Nigerians and Roma Gypsies who come to settle and ply their "skill sets" here so easily with very little push-back. Corruption is systemic in Nigeria and criminality is pervasive in the Roma community.
Is the quality of life of Irish citizens going to increase or decrease with this type of outside influence on our lives?

It will be a couple of decades before the mess becomes unsustainable in this country and the solution then will be a lot more drastic then than enacting countermeasures now. It's the kick-the-can-down-the-road-to-our-children-and-grandchildren syndrome.

archer22 · 14-09-2018 11:31am

EdgeCase wrote: »

It's only a perception index.

Exactly and those that are corrupt and those that benefit from it aren't going to complain about it.

It's going to be a case of "nothing to see here, hey look over there" :pac:

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 14-09-2018 11:36am

The Corruptions Perceptions Index for 2017, which ranks countries from least corrupt (New Zealand) to most corrupt (Somalia) placed Ireland at #19. So we're more corrupt than a number of other Western countries, including Denmark, Finland, Norway, Switzerland, Sweden, Canada, the Netherlands, the UK, Germany, Iceland, Austria, Belgium, and the USA.

But other countries like France, Portugal, Poland, Spain, Italy, and Greece rank lower than Ireland.

While we're not the most corrupt country in the Western world, Ireland's reputation has been damaged by cronyism between politicians and financial institutions that led to a financial crisis, corruption in the planning system, numerous scandals affecting the Gardai, controversy around the sale of NAMA properties, and so on. We could certainly be doing a lot better.

14-09-2018 11:39am

gandalf wrote: »

.......... That narrative is an absolute fallacy pushed by fringe elements in society. ...........

Lefties.

Who want to tax the feck out of folk who work and hand the cash to wasters. A form of corruption in itself.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-09-2018 11:49am

Augeo wrote: »

Lefties.

Who want to tax the feck out of folk who work and hand the cash to wasters. A form of corruption in itself.

Well shoe-horned in. Taxation is not corruption, as well you know. What you're asking for here is anarchy - good luck with that.

We're probably somewhere in the middle when it comes to corruption. Back in the day when Berlisconi was in power, Ahearn was an amateur.

EDIT - a quick look tells me we're 22nd, between the US and Japan. Yes, we're more corrupt than Trump County but not as bad as the honourable Japanese.

CrankyHaus · 14-09-2018 11:51am

Wibbs wrote: »

Quoted for truth. Though people for the most part aren't lying, they genuinely believe this kinda stuff to be true. There's a weird paranoia afoot, mostly on the interwebs, but even in Real Life™ to some degree.

Less than 10 years ago I remember we could look at the widespread paranoia and conspiracy theorising in the US and feel like it was a different universe. Nowadays it feels like we're getting closer to it all the time. The HPV vaccine scaremongering was an eye opener for me.

In my opinion the popularity of conspiracy theories in the US was a result of long term (deservedly) low public trust in the media and government. Unfortunately we've kind of gone the same way here. Most of the respectable media (Rte, indo, IT) alternates between wilfully dishonest and one sided reporting and apocalyptic warnings of the effect of "online fake news " on public discourse without any sense of self awareness. There are honourable exceptions but it is a disheartening vista.

archer22 · 14-09-2018 11:52am

The most worrying thing about corruption in Ireland is that there is a lot of admiration for it.
Even giving those involved in it grudgingly respectful and warm terms like "cute hoor".

This is something you do not see in other countries with a corruption problem..the corrupt might be able to operate there, but they do not have the respect of the ordinary people.

14-09-2018 1:02pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Well shoe-horned in. Taxation is not corruption.........

No, however facilitating wasters to be in receipt of relatively generous social welfare benefits for the duration of their working lives and beyond funded by those who do an honest days work is corrupt IMO.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-09-2018 1:14pm

Augeo wrote: »

No, however facilitating wasters to be in receipt of relatively generous social welfare benefits for the duration of their working lives and beyond funded by those who do an honest days work is corrupt IMO.

Again, shoe-horning.

Corruption is abuse of power. Meaning you have to have power in the first place in order to be corrupted. And those in power can only be corrupted by someone who has influence or money to offer.

In other words, not those on the dole.

14-09-2018 1:19pm

Ok, the claim that Ireland is corrupt was mentioned to be a fallacy pushed by fringe elements in society.

I agree with that and reckon who is doing it is .........

Augeo wrote: »

Lefties.

Who want to tax the feck out of folk who work and hand the cash to wasters. A form of corruption in itself.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Again, shoe-horning.

Corruption is abuse of power. Meaning you have to have power in the first place in order to be corrupted. And those in power can only be corrupted by someone who has influence or money to offer.

In other words, not those on the dole.

The lefties I'm referring to aren't on the scratch, they are politicians, SF & Co.
They have some power, they have to be facilitated etc as part of the democratic society.

Renegade Mechanic · 14-09-2018 1:22pm

Well I've made billions of Naira sending emails claiming to be an Irish Prince in financial distress, so my weekend's drinking is sorted anyway

Sycamore Tree · 14-09-2018 1:23pm

I think Ireland is certainly very corrupt - especially the Garda force but also in Planning and Public appointments. But it is far from the most corrupt country in the western world.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-09-2018 1:32pm

Augeo wrote: »

Ok, the claim that Ireland is corrupt was mentioned to be a fallacy pushed by fringe elements in society.

I agree with that and reckon who is doing it is .........

The lefties I'm referring to aren't on the scratch, they are politicians, SF & Co.
They have some power, they have to be facilitated etc as part of the democratic society.

You sure you undesrtand what we're talking about? Because it seems "corrupt" to you is anyone you disagree with.

Of course SF are being facilitated - they're a political party representing a proportion of the population - it's their job to make sure they and their voters are facilitated!! If they weren't doing it, they'd be corrupt. Just because someone uses their power in order to represent people, or has a left-leaning outlook politically speaking, does not define corruption.

Or are you just against the idea of democracy in the first place?

14-09-2018 1:36pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You sure you undesrtand what we're talking about? Because it seems "corrupt" to you is anyone you disagree with.

Not at all, I can't fathom why you think that.
I believe the speel in the OP is indeed a falacy pushed by fringe elements in our society who I reckon are lefties

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

.......The whole point of a politics is to facilitate people via the act of governance. Just because someone uses their power in order to represent people, or has a left-leaning outlook politically speaking, does not define corruption!

Or are you just against the idea of democracy in the first place?

I do think that corruption is rife in politics

That can be true without Ireland being the most corrupt country in Western Europe.

Fair enough if you are happy that lefties want loads of wasters to live happily ever after from taxes that could and should be put to better use, I don't agree with that

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-09-2018 1:37pm

Augeo wrote: »

Not at all, I can't fathom why you think that.
I believe the speel in the OP is indeed a falacy pushed by fringe elements in our society who I reckon are lefties

I do think that corruption is rife in politics

That can be true without Ireland being the most corrupt country in Western Europe.

Fair enough if you are happy that lefties want loads of wasters to live happily ever after from taxes that could and should be put to better use, I don't agree with that

Em... kind of proves my point, thanks.

You can be against the left (although it would be more intelligent to be against specific policies rather than an enitre spectrum) and you can be anti-dole; but to define corruption is such is absolute bollocks.

Also, pretty much every country in the top five or so when it comes to anti-corruption is leftist (by Irish standards), so even if you were defining it that way, you'd still be massively wrong.

14-09-2018 1:39pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Em... kind of proves my point, thanks.

Not at all, unless your point is that you are obtuse and on a leftys are great rant.

Taking from someone who earned what they have and giving it to a waster is corrupt IMO. You won't find a lefty agreeing with that.

suicide_circus · 14-09-2018 1:44pm

Daxton Unimportant Threshold wrote: »

The Corruptions Perceptions Index for 2017, which ranks countries from least corrupt (New Zealand) to most corrupt (Somalia) placed Ireland at #19. So we're more corrupt than a number of other Western countries, including Denmark, Finland, Norway, Switzerland, Sweden, Canada, the Netherlands, the UK, Germany, Iceland, Austria, Belgium, and the USA.

But other countries like France, Portugal, Poland, Spain, Italy, and Greece rank lower than Ireland.

While we're not the most corrupt country in the Western world, Ireland's reputation has been damaged by cronyism between politicians and financial institutions that led to a financial crisis, corruption in the planning system, numerous scandals affecting the Gardai, controversy around the sale of NAMA properties, and so on. We could certainly be doing a lot better.

the US only ranks so well because they have legalised what any other nation would label totally corrupt i.e. their system of political lobbying

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-09-2018 1:44pm

Augeo wrote: »

Not at all, unless your point is that you are obtuse and on a leftys are great rant.

My point is you don't undertand what corruption is, and this post proves it.

Augeo wrote: »

Not at all, I can't fathom why you think that.
I believe the speel in the OP is indeed a falacy pushed by fringe elements in our society who I reckon are lefties

I do think that corruption is rife in politics

That can be true without Ireland being the most corrupt country in Western Europe.

Fair enough if you are happy that lefties want loads of wasters to live happily ever after from taxes that could and should be put to better use, I don't agree with that

Taking from someone who earned what they have and giving it to a waster is corrupt IMO. You won't find a lefty agreeing with that.

Proven inconsequential in the context of this debate.

The Bishop Basher · 14-09-2018 1:47pm

archer22 wrote: »

The most worrying thing about corruption in Ireland is that there is a lot of admiration for it.
Even giving those involved in it grudgingly respectful and warm terms like "cute hoor".

This is something you do not see in other countries with a corruption problem..the corrupt might be able to operate there, but they do not have the respect of the ordinary people.

Completely agree..

Sure weren't Charlie and Bertie great lads altogether...

We're a bunch of naive and gullible gob****es when it comes to elections.

Grayson · 14-09-2018 1:48pm

is there corruption in Ireland? Yeah sure there is. However anyone who thinks it's the most corrupt country in the western world has never seen italy.

14-09-2018 1:49pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

My point is you don't undertand what corruption is, and this post proves it.
..........

No, it doesn't.
Just because you say so on a forum doesn't make it true

You aren't Judge Judy

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

...Proven inconsequential in the context of this debate.

Not at all, good (ish) attempt at shoehorning though.

How social welfare fraud (wasters receiving JSA etc etc isn't considered corruption I can't fathom.

'Ireland is the most corrupt country in the Western world'

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