Bills forged/overpriced by flatmate

Electronic Writer · 29-09-2020 10:47pm

I hope the person with the problem finds their solution. If you didn't need the debate you wouldn't have asked.

noodler · 29-09-2020 10:47pm

Electronic Writer wrote: »

Show me one thing in that screenshot that shows any part of it is legitimate . How do you know OP didn't make it all up. And don't play the , they all believe it , crap . Fools seldom differ .

And , if we want to refine our definitions , that's not a utility bill , it's a something or other , undefined !

Careful OP, looks like the flatmate has found the thread!

Electronic Writer · 29-09-2020 10:51pm

noodler wrote: »

Careful OP, looks like the flatmate has found the thread!

When it comes to the ESB bill, all those using the electricity should contribute to a fund regularly and what is left over when everybody has had a chance to see the bill will be spent on mince , potatoes and beans for the communal dinner.

ted1 · 29-09-2020 10:55pm

Those bills are high are really high . What type property is it? Is it all electric heating?

JustAThought · 29-09-2020 11:18pm

Sad way for a flatmate-ship to end - finding out one is possibly totally dishonest. I’m looking at it from a small screen - is there a possibiliy that the cells used to import the data are using different fonts as can happen if someone backend messes with it - hence the misalignment- or that the font used does not give the equal weight to each character you might expect? I used commission a lot of marketing material and do a lot of proofing before I signed off on them - you’d be surprised how annonying numeration can be if you mix text and numbers closely in your print.

As regards your flatmate - it say so little bout them. Are they unemployed now with the covid, or going into an office and resenting you working from home and increasing their share of the joint bill - could this be why they are doing it? You’d have to be really hard up or very resentful to pull a stunt like that - I hope they’re not just pitifully mean.

As regards the gaurds and fraud they will shrug it off and say it is a civil affair - it will cost you much more to chase it through the courts than to let it go, angry and all as it would make you.

I was settling bills a while back and discovered that there was a jump in the maths totals and could not work it out - after I rang them (also EI) it turned out that they print their eco-/environmental charges and other levvies on the back of the bill - Not itemised under the units, vat etc subtotal. Half the bill is vat and then various cruel levvies - it might be worth checking the additionals on the back of the subtoteled bill before you accuse them straight out.

Regarding the broadband some places do ‘deals’ which spread the annual contract charges amount unevenly - eg with my Virgin broadband I got a loyalty /complaint price for the first x months and after this period expired it went back to the Y proper fee for the remainder of the contract. Perhaps you were working from an averaging of the annual overall contract bill that is due but just distributed differently over the term.

Or maybe your fm is a something I’m not allowed type here.

Tread carefully :0
Best of luck with it.

fletch · 29-09-2020 11:26pm

ted1 wrote: »

Those bills are high are really high . What type property is it? Is it all electric heating?

Electric heating...during the Summer?

Panthro · 29-09-2020 11:32pm

I can't remember the last time I've read a thread and wanted a win for the OP as much as I do for this OP.
Best of luck oul bean, we're rooting for you!

ted1 · 29-09-2020 11:56pm

fletch wrote: »

Electric heating...during the Summer?

You need to heat water for a shower

It’s crazy high.

micah537 · 30-09-2020 12:07am

ted1 wrote: »

Those bills are high are really high . What type property is it? Is it all electric heating?

If you have an immersion and need to use the dryer, then I wouldn't call them high. Our summer bills are around 240 for GF and myself. OP and housemate would be doing their washing separate so the bills should be higher.

JimmyVik · 30-09-2020 7:28am

JustAThought wrote: »

Sad way for a flatmate-ship to end - finding out one is possibly totally dishonest. I’m looking at it from a small screen - is there a possibiliy that the cells used to import the data are using different fonts as can happen if someone backend messes with it - hence the misalignment- or that the font used does not give the equal weight to each character you might expect? I used commission a lot of marketing material and do a lot of proofing before I signed off on them - you’d be surprised how annonying numeration can be if you mix text and numbers closely in your print.

As regards your flatmate - it say so little bout them. Are they unemployed now with the covid, or going into an office and resenting you working from home and increasing their share of the joint bill - could this be why they are doing it? You’d have to be really hard up or very resentful to pull a stunt like that - I hope they’re not just pitifully mean.

As regards the gaurds and fraud they will shrug it off and say it is a civil affair - it will cost you much more to chase it through the courts than to let it go, angry and all as it would make you.

I was settling bills a while back and discovered that there was a jump in the maths totals and could not work it out - after I rang them (also EI) it turned out that they print their eco-/environmental charges and other levvies on the back of the bill - Not itemised under the units, vat etc subtotal. Half the bill is vat and then various cruel levvies - it might be worth checking the additionals on the back of the subtoteled bill before you accuse them straight out.

Regarding the broadband some places do ‘deals’ which spread the annual contract charges amount unevenly - eg with my Virgin broadband I got a loyalty /complaint price for the first x months and after this period expired it went back to the Y proper fee for the remainder of the contract. Perhaps you were working from an averaging of the annual overall contract bill that is due but just distributed differently over the term.

Or maybe your fm is a something I’m not allowed type here.

Tread carefully :0
Best of luck with it.

They are obtaining money by deception, and may have been doing so for some time, and to more than one person. If you ask me this is definitely a job for the gardai.

JustAThought · 30-09-2020 9:03am

JimmyVik wrote: »

They are obtaining money by deception, and may have been doing so for some time, and to more than one person. If you ask me this is definitely a job for the gardai.

There are a lot of things that should be jobs for the gaurda including car crime, vandalism, rndom attacks on women getting off buses in the evening, exterior damage to houses and cars, casual threats and intimidation - they shrug them off - someone asking for more money than is due on a house bill in a private arrangement involving a letting agent, property manager who says it is nothing to do with them and a flatmate with noone holding responsibility & under a private contract will be so low on their priorities it will never be done IMO. They will say it is a civil matter - same as if a builder completes half you work and dosn’t come back promptly after an installment payment to do the other half.

Gaurds in Irelnd need a good kick
up the pants and reminder of why they are
paid - and its not just to babysit the Kinehans and be private bodygaurds to them and their girlfriends every time a drug deal goes wrong.
They are overwhelmed, overworked and totally jaded and tied up in knots by lawyers and they know it.

OP would be better getting a solicitor involved but thats just throwing more money away with no consequences for the fm. Sadly.

Re the bill - Electricity - in lockdown where everyone is home and indoors for almost 5 months - 6 or 7 hours daily of using a PC, phone chargers, boiling the kettle, emersion, electric shower, TV and/or gaming, 24/7 wifi and skybox , washing machine, dishwasher, tumble drier, lights and lamps etc.

Is there a possibility a meter read was done by the flatmate after the OP gave notice and this was incorporated ( dubiously) into the existing bill which only comes every two months? FM would not be including levvies/ environmental taxes etc in this and the OP has not yet left and so is still running and using up lX. Maybe the
fm has included an average use for the duration until s/he leaves and added this to the bill? Maybe the bill is genuinely legit as per my previous suggestions?

I’d be asking why the property manager AND the letting agent say it is nothing to do
with them? Sounds ofd. Unless the fm is the owner and they know this! ?

ted1 · 30-09-2020 9:22am

micah537 wrote: »

If you have an immersion and need to use the dryer, then I wouldn't call them high. Our summer bills are around 240 for GF and myself. OP and housemate would be doing their washing separate so the bills should be higher.

Our bills are 140 for 2 adults and 3 kids, we've an electric shower so use electricity for shower. We use the dryer to dry the clothes fro 5 people, so would get daily use. also we'd be in the sea daily so it'd normally get a second use to dry towels.

JustAThought · 30-09-2020 9:25am

ted1 wrote: »

Our bills are 140 for 2 adults and 3 kids, we've an electric shower so use electricity for shower, I'd call them high.

Y - but the OP is a adult and can’t be told to turn the light off in his/ her bedroom and won’t be in bed by ten o’clock!

Also they are working from home ( I think) and their household heat is also run off the electricity. Those heat things are expensive and add up quickly.

fletch · 30-09-2020 9:28am

JustAThought wrote: »

Also they are working from home ( I think) and their household heat is also run off the electricity. Those heat things are expensive and add up quickly.

There is no way they had the heating on over the period of those bills. My heating on for the first time the other day in months. I've been working home all "lockdown" and my electricity bills are ~€50-€90 tops.

Henry Ford III · 30-09-2020 9:38am

So what happened next OP?

30-09-2020 9:52am

fletch wrote: »

There is no way they had the heating on over the period of those bills. My heating on for the first time the other day in months. I've been working home all "lockdown" and my electricity bills are ~€50-€90 tops.

If I want hot water then I have to have heat on even if it’s 25 outside. Not all houses are made the same or kept to the same standards, especially when renting.

ted1 · 30-09-2020 10:31am

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

If I want hot water then I have to have heat on even if it’s 25 outside. Not all houses are made the same or kept to the same standards, especially when renting.

same here. but it doesn't cost that much.

ted1 · 30-09-2020 10:32am

JustAThought wrote: »

Y - but the OP is a adult and can’t be told to turn the light off in his/ her bedroom and won’t be in bed by ten o’clock!

Also they are working from home ( I think) and their household heat is also run off the electricity. Those heat things are expensive and add up quickly.

A few LED lamps on after 10 wont cost that much.

Beltby · 30-09-2020 10:42am

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

If I want hot water then I have to have heat on even if it’s 25 outside. Not all houses are made the same or kept to the same standards, especially when renting.

Turn the rads off if you don't want to heat the whole house.

30-09-2020 10:48am

Beltby wrote: »

Turn the rads off if you don't want to heat the whole house.

Valves don’t work on all but one of them.

Anyway, doesn’t help the OP much. Whether the bill is 500 or 50 a month if they’re being cheated they’re being cheated. I’d love to see the Gardai involved but just so long as they get the cash back is the main thing.

The_Fitz · 30-09-2020 11:09am

Best of luck here OP.

Electronic Writer · 30-09-2020 2:34pm

micah537 wrote: »

.... need to use the dryer, ....

Steel pole + pulley + rope + pegs + wind = Lower €'s

charlietheminxx · 30-09-2020 2:39pm

Electronic Writer wrote: »

Steel pole + pulley + rope + pegs + wind = Lower €'s

Because everyone has a garden and it never rains in Ireland :rolleyes:

L1011 · 30-09-2020 2:40pm

Electronic Writer wrote: »

Steel pole + pulley + rope + pegs + wind = Lower €'s

Your recent posts on this thread are of zero use/value. Please stop

edlevy · 30-09-2020 8:25pm

gardai can't get involved only if i decide to press charges.
electric ireland suggested to submit a new meter request.
i will find a place to go before aproach the housemate.
i'm meeting a solicitor tomorrow.

wonski · 30-09-2020 8:37pm

edlevy wrote: »

gardai can't get involved only if i decide to press charges.
electric ireland suggested to submit a new meter request.
i will find a place to go before aproach the housemate.
i'm meeting a solicitor tomorrow.

Garda, solicitor your choice really.

I think it is a private matter initially and I would have a good chat before.

Saying that gambling/drugs/alcohol addiction or just a thief person. If you can't challenge him ask for help, but not sure you want to go legal route with it.

Try the chat first. If that doesn't work then legal if you really want. Some people need punishment, but don't expect quick result.

GrumpyMe · 30-09-2020 8:41pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I'm with EI and this what my most recent e-bill (Aug) looks like:

The numbers are all aligned properly, unlike your image, and they are added in the order you suggest in your image (bill-credit+13.5%VAT), so he can't claim that EI has changed how the bills work.

He is your flatmate? I would go to him in person and ask him to bring up the EI account on his computer in front of view.
You can wait for the full pdf if you like, but if he is going to the hassle of editing screenshots, he will probably edit the pdfs too.

I may be wrong but my VAT is exactly 13.5% of the "Charges for this period" as I would expect - your attached bill's VAT are not
Something rotten in the state of Denmark.

wonski · 30-09-2020 9:02pm

GrumpyMe wrote: »

I may be wrong but my VAT is exactly 13.5% of the "Charges for this period" as I would expect - your attached bill's VAT are not
Something rotten in the state of Denmark.

That was genuine electricity bill

lucalux · 30-09-2020 9:05pm

GrumpyMe wrote: »

I may be wrong but my VAT is exactly 13.5% of the "Charges for this period" as I would expect - your attached bill's VAT are not
Something rotten in the state of Denmark.

Maybe you've left out the credit of €6.20 before calculating VAT? My maths is terrible but that looks ok to me?! Could be wrong as usual though!

GrumpyMe · 30-09-2020 9:10pm

wonski wrote: »

That was genuine electricity bill

lucalux wrote: »

Maybe you've left out the credit of €6.20 before calculating VAT? My maths is terrible but that looks ok to me?! Could be wrong as usual though!

Ehem... but I did start with "I may be wrong..." yes take the €6.33 cr off and it's spot on 13.5%...:o

micosoft · 30-09-2020 9:40pm

Electronic Writer wrote: »

There are legitimate reasons to blank areas of a bill and there are errors made in calculating in businesses.

Ok, go to the electrical company and show them a copy of what is being presented to you as one of their bills. Bud the housemate will then have a problem if the electricity company gives a sh't. If they don't because they have the bill paid then claim the fcuker with a small claims application in the courts , bud will have to do something then.

There aren't legitimate reasons for altering a bill. Data protection does not even come into it. The only PII is his name. They are housemates so they believe it or not, share the address. What exactly would need to be redacted?

Bill errors don't include not counting up right or looking like it's badly shopped in MS Paint.

It's not the electricity suppliers problem at all. They are paid by the suspect. What happens after that is not their issue.

The small claims court does not apply between individuals. Only individuals to businesses.

Bud. Literally every bit of your advice is wrong. Bud.

Graham · 30-09-2020 11:06pm

Mod Note

Electronic Writer, do not post in this thread again.

eire1 · 03-10-2020 7:59am

Any update to this OP? Hope you got some answers about it.

beachhead · 03-10-2020 3:32pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I pay by direct debit (5% discount) and have online billing (0.5% discount).
5.5% of €115.11 (my electricity usage charge, not including standing charges/PSO levy) is €6.33.

There is another 3% discount available if you have gas (which I don't).

Cheers,thanks for the info

h3000 · 09-10-2020 8:52am

Hi OP. Did you ever get any further with this?

edlevy · 24-10-2020 11:20pm

Hey!
So, after a long period, this story is about to end. A highlight of what happened.

When I found out the electricity bills tampered, I tried to get the originals with EE, but as I'm not the account holder, they couldn't provide. Then, I found Broadband too, the same issue with the company.

Threshold.ie referred me to Gardaí and to fill a complaint with RTB.

I went to Garda, they said it was a civil issue, not criminal.

RTB recommended taking further actions only after an attempt to solve between me and him were unsuccessful. But they registered the case.

I contacted a lawyer, he suggested me to get as much documentation as possible (rent agreement signed, receipt of all payments, and a letter from housemate attesting we were sharing with equal rights, etc). One week later, both companies shared the original bills with the correct amounts, but redacting description of services (which was ok, as I was interested just in the real amount).

In between, I put all data on a spreadsheet, searched all the regulation, marked all the offences and found a new place to live, where I have to move in next week.

Today, I printed all the evidence, regulations and laws, and a Termination Agreement with 1-week notice (nullifying the 30 days agreed on the original contract), set an amount for the deposit + the overcharge + a specif fee for "stress caused during the lease".

Firstly, I informed him that I found some discrepancies that made me believe I was being overcharged. He had a poker face, then I showed him the picture pointing where the bills were forged. Naively, he asked me to explain because he "wasn't following my thoughts"... Then I just showed all the pages with the original bills on one half and the fake ones on the other. From pretending unawareness, he just admitted, said he was ashamed, and there was nothing to argue about but "plea guilty". His first suggestions were to refund the amount and to share the original bills from now on. I acknowledged but served him with the 7-day Notice Termination based on:

"breach of obligations as Tenant/Landlord under (1) the Residential Tenancies Acts 2004-2016, (2) the Criminal Justice Act 2001, and (3) the Data Protection Act 2018:

1 - Allow the tenant of the dwelling to enjoy peaceful and exclusive occupation of the dwelling (entering my room without my consent on xx/xx/xx and xx/xx/xx);
2 – Not providing a rent book with necessary information regarding bills and payments;
3 – Extra expenses paid over the course of 2019 and 2020;
4 – Sections 6, 11, 25 and 26 of the Criminal Justice Act 2001;
5 – Breaching my GDPR rights by not disclosing recording device in the hall (camera), not providing privacy notice, not searching for my consent to use my personal data (recorded image)".

He didn't feel comfortable signing with the above described, so I offered a simpler version wit his agreement to pay deposit + other expenses, just to be on the safe side by having a document signed by both parts. Next week I'm moving, got the money back and great learning.

Some people have suggested going to Court, hiring a lawyer, Gardaí, etc. but I've learnt to choose my battles, and nowadays, this outcome suits me greatly. As I have all the evidence, maybe in the future I think about further steps, but for now, I'd rather enjoy the peace in my heart.

Big thanks to all the ideas and suggestions (the helpful ones).

I hope this thread can help other people in a similar situation.

Cheers!

TheW1zard · 24-10-2020 11:27pm

edlevy wrote: »

Hey!
So, after a long period, this story is about to end. A highlight of what happened.

When I found out the electricity bills tampered, I tried to get the originals with EE, but as I'm not the account holder, they couldn't provide. Then, I found Broadband too, the same issue with the company.

Threshold.ie referred me to Gardaí and to fill a complaint with RTB.

I went to Garda, they said it was a civil issue, not criminal.

RTB recommended taking further actions only after an attempt to solve between me and him were unsuccessful. But they registered the case.

I contacted a lawyer, he suggested me to get as much documentation as possible (rent agreement signed, receipt of all payments, and a letter from housemate attesting we were sharing with equal rights, etc). One week later, both companies shared the original bills with the correct amounts, but redacting description of services (which was ok, as I was interested just in the real amount).

In between, I put all data on a spreadsheet, searched all the regulation, marked all the offences and found a new place to live, where I have to move in next week.

Today, I printed all the evidence, regulations and laws, and a Termination Agreement with 1-week notice (nullifying the 30 days agreed on the original contract), set an amount for the deposit + the overcharge + a specif fee for "stress caused during the lease".

Firstly, I informed him that I found some discrepancies that made me believe I was being overcharged. He had a poker face, then I showed him the picture pointing where the bills were forged. Naively, he asked me to explain because he "wasn't following my thoughts"... Then I just showed all the pages with the original bills on one half and the fake ones on the other. From pretending unawareness, he just admitted, said he was ashamed, and there was nothing to argue about but "plea guilty". His first suggestions were to refund the amount and to share the original bills from now on. I acknowledged but served him with the 7-day Notice Termination based on:

"breach of obligations as Tenant/Landlord under (1) the Residential Tenancies Acts 2004-2016, (2) the Criminal Justice Act 2001, and (3) the Data Protection Act 2018:

1 - Allow the tenant of the dwelling to enjoy peaceful and exclusive occupation of the dwelling (entering my room without my consent on xx/xx/xx and xx/xx/xx);
2 – Not providing a rent book with necessary information regarding bills and payments;
3 – Extra expenses paid over the course of 2019 and 2020;
4 – Sections 6, 11, 25 and 26 of the Criminal Justice Act 2001;
5 – Breaching my GDPR rights by not disclosing recording device in the hall (camera), not providing privacy notice, not searching for my consent to use my personal data (recorded image)".

He didn't feel comfortable signing with the above described, so I offered a simpler version wit his agreement to pay deposit + other expenses, just to be on the safe side by having a document signed by both parts. Next week I'm moving, got the money back and great learning.

Some people have suggested going to Court, hiring a lawyer, Gardaí, etc. but I've learnt to choose my battles, and nowadays, this outcome suits me greatly. As I have all the evidence, maybe in the future I think about further steps, but for now, I'd rather enjoy the peace in my heart.

Big thanks to all the ideas and suggestions (the helpful ones).

I hope this thread can help other people in a similar situation.

Cheers!

Amazing! Fair play for not taking it like a b

cannotlogin · 24-10-2020 11:28pm

Great result. Do you mind telling us how much he actually overcharged you by?

Purple Mountain · 24-10-2020 11:28pm

When you're leaving, remind him that if he ever pulls a fast one on another house mate, you have all the evidence and you'll proceed the legal route.
Tell him he sailed close to the wind and that he better keep his head down from now on.

JeffKenna · 24-10-2020 11:31pm

Thanks for coming back and letting us know what happened.

martingriff · 24-10-2020 11:40pm

Lock your door and keep everything inside it until you are leaving. Do not trust them

edlevy · 25-10-2020 3:25am

https://ibb.co/4pNgFzm

The overpayment was €334.

Bummer1234 · 25-10-2020 7:48am

Wow fair play edlevy for sticking it out. Good luck in your new spot.

h3000 · 25-10-2020 8:33am

edlevy wrote: »

https://ibb.co/4pNgFzm

The overpayment was €334.

Just in case you are using that table as evidence at some stage you seem to have an incorrect total in the ‘correct amount’ column. The amount you’ve overpaid does add up though

lapua20grain · 25-10-2020 8:42am

Nice one op delighted for you

SeaFields · 25-10-2020 8:50am

Well done OP.

Id be curious about the Garda saying it was civil rather than criminal. I'm by no means an expert but would he have not been committing deception and could be prosecuted under the relevant criminal laws?

Graces7 · 25-10-2020 2:05pm

SeaFields wrote: »

Well done OP.

Id be curious about the Garda saying it was civil rather than criminal. I'm by no means an expert but would he have not been committing deception and could be prosecuted under the relevant criminal laws?

Maybe check on the legal discussion forum here? The Gardaí say that often though :rolleyes:

ted1 · 25-10-2020 10:27pm

Is there any other tenants?

CollyFlower · 26-10-2020 1:12am

ted1 wrote: »

Is there any other tenants?

If there is other tenants let them know. He/she could be doing this hustle for years to others.

Bills forged/overpriced by flatmate

Comments