The Irish famine?

feargale · 25-12-2014 12:53am

Happy Christmas everybody, and every good fortune in 2015.
Go mbeirimíd beo ar an dtràth seo arís.

Andrew Purfield · 28-12-2014 3:43am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Good luck with that one.

Maybe it could be focused on Drogheda, after they adopted the Ottoman symbol to remember the aid sent by the emperor.

It speaks to the Humanity and Folk Memory of Drogheda and Drogheda people that they adopted this symbol long long before anybody in Ireland dared talk about the Famine for fear of what their Granda was upto, and whether he was one of the Sheriff's or Bailiff's men.

Every year we have cultural exchanges to and fro from Turkey. The local Football Club has the most prominent symbol and they play Trabzonspor regularly. It is a historical fact the Sultan sent ships and the Brits shamelessly tried to block them from coming, so they had to be sent secretly. He wanted to donate a fortune and Queen Victoria limited what could be accepted.

''In 1845, Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid declared his intention to send £10,000 to victims of the Irish potato famine, but Queen Victoria requested that the Sultan send only £1,000, because she herself had sent only £2,000.[1][2][3] The Sultan sent £1,000 along with three ships full of food. The British administration allegedly attempted to block the ships, but the food arrived secretly at Drogheda harbour and was left there by Ottoman sailors.[4][5] Shipping records relating to the port appear not to have survived. Newspaper reports suggest that ships from Thessaloniki in the Ottoman Empire sailed up the River Boyne in May 1847,[6] although it has also been claimed that the river was dry at the time. A letter written by Irish notables in the Ottoman archives explicitly thanks the Sultan for his help.[7] The ships landed in Drogheda; in 1995, the Drogheda town hall erected a placard in commemoration. In 2012, plans were announced to produce a film on the subject,[8] starring Colin Farrell and several Turkish stars.[9]''

So far from worshipping some foreign emperor, the Humanitarianism is remembered fondly along with the cultural link it spawned between Drogheda and Turkey which still stands to this stay in Commerce(we have a good few small Turkish food outlets and Kebab places), Sport(as aforementioned) and in regular cultural, educational and political exchanges.

A bit of detail wouldn't kill you, while you're denigrating it as 'foreign aid sent by the Emperor'. The Brits were foreigners too in case you forgot, and as aforementioned they shamelessly tried to block the aid, ie food for starving people they themselves as Landlords in Cabinet had stolen farming produce from and wouldn't feed.

Andrew Purfield · 28-12-2014 4:10am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Blame where blame is due. But in Ireland everything gets blamed on the English.

I think it's in Angela's Ashes where the family throw out a mattress riddled with bed bugs and the father blames the English, because there were no bed bugs in Ireland until the English came. Always makes me smile.

But my point is that the Choctaw Indians generosity is mentioned every time the famine is discussed, usually along with protestant proselytizing. Never ever, for example, do the Quakers or Baron Rothschild get a mention.

Then you get crap about Victoria only gave £20 and stopped the ottoman emperor from donating more, then ordered the navy to stop his aid ships coming in to Dublin. There are still people who think Drogheda took his coat of arms in gratitude.

This is degrading to Drogheda People like myself in the extremity. You've done this in a few posts and it's like you have a grudge against the town? Takes some neck and ignorance for an English person who admitted his own historical knowledge of the Famine amounted to somewhere between the Industrial Revolution and World War One to come on and get stuck into Drogheda. You should read a few books.

Are you seriously saying Drogheda People and Politicians took the Turkish coat of arms as an ironic dark humoured historical slight on the British and the Feudal Landlord Classes, and by extension the Victims of the Genocide itself?

Have you ever actually been to or lived in Drogheda and engaged the very well informed local populace and historians on the matter, or indeed other matters as pertaining to British Rule in the vicinity of the locality?

Drogheda was the centre of many intellectual movements since its' entire population was massacred by the invading Army in Cromwell's day. We like to consider ourselves a forgiving people, but we reserve the right to never forget. The Local Saint of Drogheda was decapitated, hung drawn and quartered by the Brits despite being a forward thinking Man of Peace for his time who established Ireland's first multi-denominational schools and college. His friendship with the British elite counted for nothing in the end and the Poor man was brutally slaughtered like all catholic leaders of the time. His head is in our Church in Perpetuity. I suppose that's another plot to provoke, as opposed to gratitude?

What next, The Battle of Julianstown and the Confederation were plots to provoke another invasion?

Drogheda people remember when young men were either sent to Australia or hung in the Town Square for stealing bread. I think you need to explain what your problem with Drogheda is. It smacks of ignorance, almost bigotry.

It's a historical fact that the British Monarch of the day told the Ottoman to limit his donation(the miserable cow couldn't be out done in her Poor Law Relief, could she) and that the Landowning classes in Cabinet tried to stop the ships coming by refusing access to the main Ports.

Just while we're dispensing with our prejudices let's be factual about them. I've lived and spent considerable time in some gutter towns as well as nice cities outside of Ireland, and while Drogheda people certainly never forget their history, they harbour no grudge, but we rightly take offence at misrepresentations from people with an obvious axe to grind against the town. There are far worse and less enlightened places on this planet.

If we are going to be engaging in the Elitist slagging off of provincial towns and calling people 'ueber patriots' who use various 'recruiting tools' based on prejudices they hold in our posts we could do worse than look at some Far Right Racist Provincial English towns who elected a raft of UKIP MEP's and who are now starting to elect UKIP MP's as well. I wonder what Nigel Farage thinks of the Famine/Great Hunger.

Drogheda People vote SF and Independent, which is not a sign of Ueber Patriotism, but of leftwing politics in a deindustrialised town. A more enlightened reaction than blaming Romanians and Bulgarians which is the habit of your own country's 'Ueber Patriots' while we're at it.

My advice to you next time you're lucky enough to be in Drogheda Town is to go into one of the many local businesses such as the many Coffee Houses which have sprung up in recent years and engage with people. Visit the Tower and the Museum in the Cultural quarter in Millmount. In advance of that you might try forgetting your prejudices and reading the odd book on what really happened in Drogheda during the Mass Genocide that was the Great Hunger.

By the way when it comes to Ueber Patriots, the term you use to refer to anybody who sympathises with the Famine generally, whose Parliament has the Lord Persecutor outside of it? That man slaughtered the whole of Drogheda, and 35% of the then Irish population, expelling many hundreds of thousands more into Slavery. The uncomfortable truth for you is British Rule has a long history of Genocide, especially in Ireland.

I don't hold any candle for the sliveens in Dáil Éireann, and indeed am resident abroad because of their actions, but let's not lecture other people's countries on alleged revisionism unless we are willing to acknowledge the very real revisionism propagated in our own. At least the Austrians here preserve and acknowledge the shame that was Mauthausen. The Brits have a Statue outside Westminster of the man the Irish regard rightfully in the same book as Hitler, which sums up ignorant revisionist and illiterate drooling medieval attitudes like yours towards Historical Facts like British blocking and refusal of 'Famine' Aid really.

Andrew Purfield · 28-12-2014 5:04am

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Fred did a decent job of answering it - the narrative about the famine is that it was cause by the British and the Protestant Ascendancy and that they were serving their interests for its duration - that is absolutely not the case - indeed there is copious amounts of evidence to demonstrate that once the famine started certain sections of the 'Irish' society, namely the Catholic (and Protestant - although they were overwhelmingly Catholic) merchants and the Catholic (and Protestant) tenant farmers engaged in widespread manipulation of food supplies and prices to make a financial killing off the misery and death of the rural and urban poor.

While it is no doubt true that the Political class running this country, the Business classes and the Officer classes, and some other sections of the populace have ancestors who colluded in the oppression of the period, how could a majority of the Merchants and Sliveens have been Catholic when the Protestant Ascendancy owned almost all the land, Property, Foodstuffs, and thus profits and Capital?

Who ordered the evictions?

Who banged down the door for them is a lesser question in many respects.

It was largely the RIC, British soldiers and some hired thugs. Every society has collaborators, chancers and sliveens at moments of national trauma. The true criminals were the heartless people who ordered the ethnic cleansing and killed in effect to steal more land for profit. Several of the British Cabinet were Absentee Landlords so a lot of these eviction orders came from on high too.

Somebody gave the orders for evictions on these feudally owned lands and it wasn't the Sneaking Regarder Gombeen Men but the Hated Feudal Landlords, and the rates and policies imposed on them by the British Government, who maintain ultimate culpability in this crime, and there's a considerable hierarchy before we reach the sliveens and middle men who profiteered towards the end of the Genocide.

You're taking a typical Revisionist view based on the Manifesto and your own hatred of Republicanism, as you've done on other sites.

Read Tim Pat Coogan's The Famine Plot and stop your pejorative revisionism.

Andrew Purfield · 28-12-2014 5:20am

Jesus. wrote: »

Fair enough Jolly Red Giant but you appear to be lurching from one extreme to the other. You're now making no mention of the landlords (who were mainly of the Gentry) who's minuscule plots and high rents helped bring about the disaster in the first place.

You're talking about what people did during the famine and you're right to do so. But you seem to be excusing a large part of the reason for the tragedy which does come across as pretty revisionist to be honest.

Thank you!

Put more succinctly than I could manage.

I disagreed with some of what you wrote-this should be remembered on a State level as its' consequences are still felt today-but ultimately as Tim Pat Coogan said, while many a Native Middle Man profiteered during the actual event, the main beneficiaries of it were the Landlords, Politicians and Civil Servants who instigated it and stood back laughing at its' happenings. Balbriggan and towns like it had been a developing industrial townland as well prior to the Act of Union and later economic sabotage so there's that too.

Coogan makes the point this was Political Economy of Laissez Faire and Religious dogma of 'the will of Providence teaching the feckless Irish a lesson' in a toxic mix-an adherence to Property Rights over the Common Good, like an Anti-Thesis to the Proclamation or Bunreacht if ye will, and Trevelyan was the main force behind this, from limiting and blocking and later closing down Peel's relief programs, from the punitive Poor Law and the dreaded workhouse that multiplied the Death Toll, to on the basis of his limited once-off former travels round Ireland, writing racist but influential anonymous articles and letters to the Press of the Day that held sway in British and Anglo-Irish circles where it counted as it came down to the crunch, they were only too happy to clear the land and if a middleman class emerged and benefited too, then all well and good.

JRG subscribes to a particularly revisionist and one dimensional purely ideological view of history. Not altogether a factual view in every circumstance.

Actually a more leftwing approach than JRG's simplistic and revisionist nonsense is the truth that realises this was classic ultra rightwing orthodoxy of the Landlords and British Elite at play, with a dirty cocktail of prejudice designed to eradicate half the Population one way or another, and it worked.

We may as well blame the Guards at Auschwitz for the invasion of Poland and subsequent horrors. Sure they were only folleying orders we always say pejoratively, and rightly so, but who was giving the orders. Same chain of command applies here in a situation where almost 9 million people became circa 4 million in just 7 years.

Lots of simpletons as you say, who not alone cannot do the Maths, but cannot even tell a chain of command when they see one and in true West Brit anti SF manner will start pointing the finger at the Gombeen Enforcer class as the cause rather than the Symptom.

Fratton Fred · 28-12-2014 12:27pm

Andrew Purfield wrote: »

It speaks to the Humanity and Folk Memory of Drogheda and Drogheda people that they adopted this symbol long long before anybody in Ireland dared talk about the Famine for fear of what their Granda was upto, and whether he was one of the Sheriff's or Bailiff's men.

Every year we have cultural exchanges to and fro from Turkey. The local Football Club has the most prominent symbol and they play Trabzonspor regularly. It is a historical fact the Sultan sent ships and the Brits shamelessly tried to block them from coming, so they had to be sent secretly. He wanted to donate a fortune and Queen Victoria limited what could be accepted.

''In 1845, Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid declared his intention to send £10,000 to victims of the Irish potato famine, but Queen Victoria requested that the Sultan send only £1,000, because she herself had sent only £2,000.[1][2][3] The Sultan sent £1,000 along with three ships full of food. The British administration allegedly attempted to block the ships, but the food arrived secretly at Drogheda harbour and was left there by Ottoman sailors.[4][5] Shipping records relating to the port appear not to have survived. Newspaper reports suggest that ships from Thessaloniki in the Ottoman Empire sailed up the River Boyne in May 1847,[6] although it has also been claimed that the river was dry at the time. A letter written by Irish notables in the Ottoman archives explicitly thanks the Sultan for his help.[7] The ships landed in Drogheda; in 1995, the Drogheda town hall erected a placard in commemoration. In 2012, plans were announced to produce a film on the subject,[8] starring Colin Farrell and several Turkish stars.[9]''

So far from worshipping some foreign emperor, the Humanitarianism is remembered fondly along with the cultural link it spawned between Drogheda and Turkey which still stands to this stay in Commerce(we have a good few small Turkish food outlets and Kebab places), Sport(as aforementioned) and in regular cultural, educational and political exchanges.

A bit of detail wouldn't kill you, while you're denigrating it as 'foreign aid sent by the Emperor'. The Brits were foreigners too in case you forgot, and as aforementioned they shamelessly tried to block the aid, ie food for starving people they themselves as Landlords in Cabinet had stolen farming produce from and wouldn't feed.

lol.

Pretty much the entire story you have posted is a complete myth and the fact you believe it enough to post it demonstrates my point perfectly.

Thank you.

pedroeibar1 · 28-12-2014 1:01pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

lol.

Pretty much the entire story you have posted is a complete myth and the fact you believe it enough to post it demonstrates my point perfectly.

Thank you.

What did you expect?

Anyone who does a "cut & paste" from Wikipedia, (with more from a rabid Irish American site) and regards Coogan's book on the Famine as authoritative, really needs help!:D:D

DecStone · 29-12-2014 12:43am

Andrew Purfield wrote: »

It speaks to the Humanity and Folk Memory of Drogheda and Drogheda people that they adopted this symbol long long before anybody in Ireland dared talk about the Famine for fear of what their Granda was upto, and whether he was one of the Sheriff's or Bailiff's men.

Every year we have cultural exchanges to and fro from Turkey. The local Football Club has the most prominent symbol and they play Trabzonspor regularly. It is a historical fact the Sultan sent ships and the Brits shamelessly tried to block them from coming, so they had to be sent secretly. He wanted to donate a fortune and Queen Victoria limited what could be accepted.

''In 1845, Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid declared his intention to send £10,000 to victims of the Irish potato famine, but Queen Victoria requested that the Sultan send only £1,000, because she herself had sent only £2,000.[1][2][3] The Sultan sent £1,000 along with three ships full of food. The British administration allegedly attempted to block the ships, but the food arrived secretly at Drogheda harbour and was left there by Ottoman sailors.[4][5] Shipping records relating to the port appear not to have survived. Newspaper reports suggest that ships from Thessaloniki in the Ottoman Empire sailed up the River Boyne in May 1847,[6] although it has also been claimed that the river was dry at the time. A letter written by Irish notables in the Ottoman archives explicitly thanks the Sultan for his help.[7] The ships landed in Drogheda; in 1995, the Drogheda town hall erected a placard in commemoration. In 2012, plans were announced to produce a film on the subject,[8] starring Colin Farrell and several Turkish stars.[9]''

So far from worshipping some foreign emperor, the Humanitarianism is remembered fondly along with the cultural link it spawned between Drogheda and Turkey which still stands to this stay in Commerce(we have a good few small Turkish food outlets and Kebab places), Sport(as aforementioned) and in regular cultural, educational and political exchanges.

A bit of detail wouldn't kill you, while you're denigrating it as 'foreign aid sent by the Emperor'. The Brits were foreigners too in case you forgot, and as aforementioned they shamelessly tried to block the aid, ie food for starving people they themselves as Landlords in Cabinet had stolen farming produce from and wouldn't feed.

This is a thoughtful response IMO and the fact that a poster answered it with a dismissive 'LOL" says more about him than it does your post.

And while yet another poster tried to denigrate your point by saying you used Wiki - your quote regarding Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid is actually from recent work of Christine Kinealy who had done much good research on the Famine.

Fratton Fred · 29-12-2014 8:44am

DecStone wrote: »

This is a thoughtful response IMO and the fact that a poster answered it with a dismissive 'LOL" says more about him than it does your post.

And while yet another poster tried to denigrate your point by saying you used Wiki - your quote regarding Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid is actually from recent work of Christine Kinealy who had done much good research on the Famine.

The Sultan donated money, that is well known. The rest, about the aid ships being blocked, going to Drogheda and the origins of the Drogheda crest is fantasy

Drogheda was a loyal royalist town (why do you think Cromwell attacked it) and its loyalty was rewarded by giving the city a star and crescent by king John.

You might want to check out the badge of Portsmouth fc. The city was awarded a similar emblem by Richard the lionheart.

DecStone · 29-12-2014 2:45pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Sultan donated money, that is well known. The rest, about the aid ships being blocked, going to Drogheda and the origins of the Drogheda crest is fantasy

You can't say that this is 'fantasy' and dismiss it so out of hand. Christine Kinealy mentions it a number of times in her work and says that while there is no documented proof of the blockage there is some anecdotal evidence that ships were blocked from landing at Cork and Dublin and went into Drogheda. I'm not saying either way, but that dismissing this so high handedly is not a valid response.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Drogheda was a loyal royalist town (why do you think Cromwell attacked it) and its loyalty was rewarded by giving the city a star and crescent by king John.

The origins of the City's logo are unclear - there is no direct evidence that it came from King John.

And as for Cromwell - the whole of Ireland was 'royalist' or papist as far as he was concerned and this was stated during the trial of Charles I. The Irish had supplied Charles with arms to fight the parliamentarians. Massacring the Papists of Ireland was Cromwell's stated goal. Soon after Drogheda he attacked Wexford and boasted in letters back to London that he was killing papists and Catholic priests 'promiscuously'.

Fratton Fred · 29-12-2014 9:49pm

DecStone wrote: »

The origins of the City's logo are unclear - there is no direct evidence that it came from King John. .

Let me help you then

http://m.independent.ie/regionals/droghedaindependent/localnotes/the-arms-of-drogheda-explained-27111958.html

So, despite the "regular" games against Trabvonspor (one game that was rained off in 2013) and the odd Kebab house, it actually looks like Drogheda has far closer links to England than it does Turkey.

Still, it's a good story all the same.

Jesus. · 30-12-2014 2:51pm

Andrew Purfield wrote: »

This is degrading to Drogheda People like myself in the extremity. You've done this in a few posts and it's like you have a grudge against the town?

Maybe he doesn't like the aaaaaacent

Jesus. · 30-12-2014 2:56pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So, despite the "regular" games against Trabvonspor (one game that was rained off in 2013) and the odd Kebab house, it actually looks like Drogheda has far closer links to England than it does Turkey.

Well of course it would, that's a bloody silly argument to be fair Fred.

But why would that preclude it from having any links whatsoever to Turkey?

DecStone · 30-12-2014 4:26pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Let me help you then

[link removed...]

So, despite the "regular" games against Trabvonspor (one game that was rained off in 2013) and the odd Kebab house, it actually looks like Drogheda has far closer links to England than it does Turkey.

Still, it's a good story all the same.

The Indo article is mostly opinion and speculation. There is no absolute proof regarding where the origins of the crest actually come from - apart from comparisons to similar ones.

And of course Drogheda would have more 'closer links' to England than Turkey. That is not a dispute. The entire country was a colony of the English, later British. That was more than a link - it was a chain.

Fratton Fred · 30-12-2014 5:34pm

DecStone wrote: »

The Indo article is mostly opinion and speculation. There is no absolute proof regarding where the origins of the crest actually come from - apart from comparisons to similar ones.

And of course Drogheda would have more 'closer links' to England than Turkey. That is not a dispute. The entire country was a colony of the English, later British. That was more than a link - it was a chain.

Maybe, but I look forward to you providing the evidence that shows the origins of the drogheda crest are ottoman.

DecStone · 30-12-2014 7:22pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Maybe, but I look forward to you providing the evidence that shows the origins of the drogheda crest are ottoman.

I'm not making that assertion. I began this by saying that your dismissal of it all is the issue. You dismiss something out of hand with a 'LOL' quip without having any evidence to the contrary. I am saying that we are dealing with uncertainty and not something that can be put down with ridicule the way you did.

Fratton Fred · 30-12-2014 7:47pm

DecStone wrote: »

I'm not making that assertion. I began this by saying that your dismissal of it all is the issue. You dismiss something out of hand with a 'LOL' quip without having any evidence to the contrary. I am saying that we are dealing with uncertainty and not something that can be put down with ridicule the way you did.

Yes, yes we can.

DecStone · 30-12-2014 8:38pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Yes, yes we can.

So nothing of any value to add to the discussion. Thought not.

Fratton Fred · 30-12-2014 8:45pm

DecStone wrote: »

So nothing of any value to add to the discussion. Thought not.

What have you added? No actual points, no actual discussion or evidence. You are pursuing a complete strawman argument that because there is no actual proof the Drogheda arms came from king John, we can't discount that they were created as part of a tribute to the ottoman sultan.

The point has been discussed in the media numerous times and very widely discredited by reputable historians. The STORY is just some makey uppey history that has absolutely no basis in fact.

Tell me, as you're the apparent expert, what do you believe?

DecStone · 30-12-2014 9:17pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What have you added? No actual points, no actual discussion or evidence. You are pursuing a complete strawman argument that because there is no actual proof the Drogheda arms came from king John, we can't discount that they were created as part of a tribute to the ottoman sultan.

The point has been discussed in the media numerous times and very widely discredited by reputable historians. The STORY is just some makey uppey history that has absolutely no basis in fact.

Tell me, as you're the apparent expert, what do you believe?

No, you're the self proclaimed expert here as evidenced by your dismissive response that I first pointed out to you. I answered that the origins of the crest are uncertain and therefore shouldn't be dismissed so out of hand. You had added nothing to the poster's long response expect to ridicule it with "LOL". Nothing helpful there.

I also gave Christine Kinealy as a source for the 'possibility' [note the word] of the ships landing at Drogheda. Her work on shipping during the period has added much to the discussion on the Famine experience. She has done work on other ships coming from the United States into Ireland which were delayed or diverted by the British authorities because of what she termed "the labyrinth of bureaucracy attached to the public works" so much so that their attempt at bringing aid proved almost useless to the Famine victims.

Jesus. · 30-12-2014 9:19pm

DecStone wrote: »

I'm not making that assertion. I began this by saying that your dismissal of it all is the issue. You dismiss something out of hand with a 'LOL' quip without having any evidence to the contrary..

I must say that I do find Freddie has a bit of a cheek. He's an Englishman living in Ireland (or so he says) yet is happy to bitch and moan about an Irish town and its populace regarding a particular part of their traditions.

If I was him, rather than dig up the history of the famine (with the sole qualification of his "side's" role being that Q Vicky gave a couple of grand to the starving millions :rolleyes:), Drogheda and every other inglorious piece of Irish history where those whom he defends were involved, he and his fantasy-living sidekick Pedro would be better served consuming a large slice of humble pie and not make himself look like such an outdated eejit from a bygone era constantly trying to justify the unjustifiable past savagery in the modern age.

Time to resign the Bugle and the "Tally-Ho" to the history books Frederick. Your inglorious conquests have been caught up with by history and they're being picked apart in all their grotesqueness for all the World to see

Fratton Fred · 30-12-2014 10:27pm

Jesus. wrote: »

I must say that I do find Freddie has a bit of a cheek. He's an Englishman living in Ireland (or so he says) yet is happy to bitch and moan about an Irish town and its populace regarding a particular part of their traditions.

If I was him, rather than dig up the history of the famine (with the sole qualification of his "side's" role being that Q Vicky gave a couple of grand to the starving millions :rolleyes:), Drogheda and every other inglorious piece of Irish history where those whom he defends were involved, he and his fantasy-living sidekick Pedro would be better served consuming a large slice of humble pie and not make himself look like such an outdated eejit from a bygone era constantly trying to justify the unjustifiable past savagery in the modern age.

Time to resign the Bugle and the "Tally-Ho" to the history books Frederick. Your inglorious conquests have been caught up with by history and they're being picked apart in all their grotesqueness for all the World to see

If all else fails, resort to nationality.

You keep kidding yourself if you like Jesus, you don't add anything here other than petty name calling when you don't like what is being said.

Fratton Fred · 30-12-2014 10:42pm

DecStone wrote: »

No, you're the self proclaimed expert here as evidenced by your dismissive response that I first pointed out to you. I answered that the origins of the crest are uncertain and therefore shouldn't be dismissed so out of hand. You had added nothing to the poster's long response expect to ridicule it with "LOL". Nothing helpful there.

I also gave Christine Kinealy as a source for the 'possibility' [note the word] of the ships landing at Drogheda. Her work on shipping during the period has added much to the discussion on the Famine experience. She has done work on other ships coming from the United States into Ireland which were delayed or diverted by the British authorities because of what she termed "the labyrinth of bureaucracy attached to the public works" so much so that their attempt at bringing aid proved almost useless to the Famine victims.

Christine Kinnealy is excellent, but to use her as justification for the fairy tale surrounding the Drogheda coat of arms or the tale that goes with it is crass in the extreme.

Was there bureaucracy preventing ships landing? I don't doubt it, but the story tells of a deliberate blockade by the royal navy. Somewhat different stories I would say.

If the town adopted the Sultan's flag, why is the crescent at 90 degrees to the one on the ottoman flag? Why does it have a blue background? Why keep the three lions? the whole story of this special relationship between Drogheda and trabvonspor amounts to one game scheduled to be played, coincidentally, when an Irish tv station launched in Turkey.

How pointing out this reality is somehow considered an insult to Drogheda I don't know, all I can suggest is that the truth sometimes hurts.

Jesus. · 30-12-2014 11:34pm

I'm beginning to wonder if you're really from England at all, Freddie. I've never come across an Englishman with such entrenched head-in-the-sand views before.

You sure you're not from Northern Ireland????????

pedroeibar1 · 30-12-2014 11:45pm

Jesus. wrote: »

I'm beginning to wonder if you're really from England at all, Freddie. I've never come across an Englishman with such entrenched head-in-the-sand views before.

You sure you're not from Northern Ireland????????

Jesus. wrote: »

I must say that I do find Freddie has a bit of a cheek. He's an Englishman living in Ireland (or so he says) yet is happy to bitch and moan about an Irish town and its populace regarding a particular part of their traditions.

If I was him, rather than dig up the history of the famine (with the sole qualification of his "side's" role being that Q Vicky gave a couple of grand to the starving millions Drogheda and every other inglorious piece of Irish history where those whom he defends were involved, he and his fantasy-living sidekick Pedro would be better served consuming a large slice of humble pie and not make himself look like such an outdated eejit from a bygone era constantly trying to justify the unjustifiable past savagery in the modern age.

Time to resign the Bugle and the "Tally-Ho" to the history books Frederick. Your inglorious conquests have been caught up with by history and they're being picked apart in all their grotesqueness for all the World to see

The above post is ad hominem, trolling, childish and ignorant. I know it is Christmas, but what are the Mods doing when they allow that type of post, along with those by poster Andrew Purfield (e.g. #105) and yet jump on others with rather nasty comments?

Anybody with an ounce of interest in history would (and easily could) research the Arms of Drogheda and the story behind them instead of spouting the s#ite recently seen and exemplified by the above post. The crescent is not the ‘Arms’, it is the crest, (which forms part of the arms) and it lies on the wreath or mantling. It is taken from the arms of King John who presented Drogheda with its first charter in 1210. The star is an eight pointed star between the two ends of a crescent moon. They also appear in this fashion on all the triangular coins of John struck in this country, and (as pointed out by Fred) also appear in sculpture over the thrones in St Patrick’s Cathedral, Dublin, which were erected during his Lordship of Ireland. The crest has nothing to do with Turkey.

The shield shows a crenelled gate, with battlements and loopholes, of two towers surmounted by red pennants. The portcullis is lowered, signifying the security of the walled town. On the right side of the gate a ship sails, with St George’s ensign displayed on the stern. This represents the trade with England that supported the town from its earliest times. To the left of the gate are the three lions of England.

DecStone is also backpedalling on his remarks in relation to C Kinealy – what he said was ……….

regarding Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid is actually from recent work of Christine Kinealy who had done much good research on the Famine.

so his recent comments are totally incorrect and out of context. Decstone might learn a bit more about the Famine if he actually read some of Kinealy’s work, like for example her comment (in a Famine article in History Ireland) on the British Government

In the summer of 1847, in the wake of the almost total second failure of the potato crop, the British government established soup kitchens throughout Ireland. At the peak of this scheme, over three million people, that is, forty per cent of the population, were receiving free rations of food daily from the soup kitchens (which, even by the standard of contemporary famines, is a tremendous logistical achievement). To make this possible, a comprehensive and nation-wide machinery was created within Ireland in the space of only a few months. As a consequence of this scheme, mortality began to fall as, for the first and only time during the Famine, the problem of hunger was confronted directly.

And, for what it is worth the are other heraldic arguments as to why it was King Johm, as the crescent is a mark of cadency that ‘fits’ with him.

Jesus. · 31-12-2014 12:11am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The above post is ad hominem, trolling, childish and ignorant. I know it is Christmas, but what are the Mods doing when they allow that type of post, along with those by poster Andrew Purfield (e.g. #105) and yet jump on others with rather nasty comments?

Oh don't be such a bloody crybaby. Go tell the teacher on the bold boys, eh? :rolleyes:

It was Freddie and your good self who took the tone of this conversation down to a childish ignorant level with replies like "LOL" and this little gem:

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

What did you expect? Anyone who does a "cut & paste" from Wikipedia, (with more from a rabid Irish American site) and regards Coogan's book on the Famine as authoritative, really needs help!:D:D

If you can't conduct yourself in an adult manner then you can't complain when someone pulls you up on it.

Your British/loyalist propaganda has been dismantled and you're riled. Get used to it compadre.

Fratton Fred · 31-12-2014 11:55am

Jesus. wrote: »

I'm beginning to wonder if you're really from England at all, Freddie. I've never come across an Englishman with such entrenched head-in-the-sand views before.

You sure you're not from Northern Ireland????????

Entrenched head in the sand views? Seriously?

People know full well the entire Drogheda - Turkish thing is bull**** and refuse to admit it, but I'm the one with my head in the sand?

pedroeibar1 · 31-12-2014 1:16pm

Jesus. wrote: »

If you can't conduct yourself in an adult manner then you can't complain when someone pulls you up on it.

Your British/loyalist propaganda has been dismantled and you're riled. Get used to it compadre.

Naw, Jesus, what you’ve written is not worth bothering about. It is just a continuous ill-informed rant woven around a tale of the nasty Brits and their Queen. Other than invective, platitudes and hearsay your contribution has added not one item of merit to the topic. Empty noise, insults and waffle. A view supported by your acceptance of a “cut & paste” from Wiki as a “source”. Contemptible, even at school homework level.

Jesus. · 31-12-2014 1:40pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Entrenched head in the sand views? Seriously?

People know full well the entire Drogheda - Turkish thing is bull**** and refuse to admit it, but I'm the one with my head in the sand?

Not talking about Drogheda Freddie, I'm talking about everything else you talk about. But seeing as you mention Drogheda, why would an Englishman living in Ireland be so outspoken about whether or not a supply ship docked in Drogheda during the Famine? Would your time not be better served coming to terms with the British establishment's gross wrongdoings in many Countries down the years rather than nitpicking about a subject that's really an irrelevance?

Are you really from England Fred?

DecStone · 31-12-2014 2:38pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

DecStone is also backpedalling on his remarks in relation to C Kinealy – what he said was ………. so his recent comments are totally incorrect and out of context. Decstone might learn a bit more about the Famine if he actually read some of Kinealy’s work, like for example her comment (in a Famine article in History Ireland) on the British Government

There is no backpedalling going on with me. I have read most of Kinsealy's work on the Famine - including her more recent work - and as I pointed out in a previous post:

"Christine Kinealy mentions it a number of times in her work and says that while there is no documented proof of the blockage there is some anecdotal evidence that ships were blocked from landing at Cork and Dublin"

You are using another, separate comment that she made in order to conflate the issue at hand. And for what end? I don't know or understand what is at stake here with you and Fred but historic truth doesn't seem to be paramount in your efforts. Reading over your posts there is much opinion, passion but very light on historic facts. Your obvious bias - Fred has actually stated his bias on a number of occasions - is blinding you to any rational discussion which might lead you to historic validity.

Fratton Fred · 31-12-2014 2:54pm

Jesus. wrote: »

Not talking about Drogheda Freddie, I'm talking about everything else you talk about. But seeing as you mention Drogheda, why would an Englishman living in Ireland be so outspoken about whether or not a supply ship docked in Drogheda during the Famine? Would your time not be better served coming to terms with the British establishment's gross wrongdoings in many Countries down the years rather than nitpicking about a subject that's really an irrelevance?

Are you really from England Fred?

Aah, the old "i don't like what you say, so I'll call you a west brit/loyalist/Stockholm syndrome sufferer. Where I am from is irrelevant, but you can read my posting history and make up your own mind.

This thread is about the famine. The poster that resurrected it asked why I claimed it is used as a weapon or a rallying call. Drogheda is the perfect example of this.

Those that died in the famine were exploited and their memory continues to be exploited today, although now for political/nationalist reasons.

Jesus. · 31-12-2014 3:20pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Where I am from is irrelevant

Its not irrelevant. There is an obvious bias attached to everything you write which seeks to discount the facts in favour of a very diluted fanciful (British nationalist?) narrative.

Just be honest man, where are you from?

Fratton Fred · 31-12-2014 4:52pm

Jesus. wrote: »

Its not irrelevant. There is an obvious bias attached to everything you write which seeks to discount the facts in favour of a very diluted fanciful (British nationalist?) narrative.

Just be honest man, where are you from?

As I said, you can read my history if you like, it shows pretty conclusively that I am English.

I deliberately post with an English nationalist slant to play devil's advocate, but that is irrelevant to any of my points. They remain valid. When it comes to Irish history, anyone who doesn't accept the republican narrative is written off as a west brit any way.

Jesus. · 31-12-2014 5:01pm

There's republican narratives and then there's imperialist British narratives Freddie lad. Neither are conducive to the truth. You are very much on the latter side of the scale and have no compunction in giving it large despite living in Ireland! Whatever you want Freddie, just as long as you're not hoping to win any popularity contests

Fratton Fred · 31-12-2014 5:52pm

Jesus. wrote: »

There's republican narratives and then there's imperialist British narratives Freddie lad. Neither are conducive to the truth. You are very much on the latter side of the scale and have no compunction in giving it large despite living in Ireland! Whatever you want Freddie, just as long as you're not hoping to win any popularity contests

There is no British imperialist narrative. The British haven't made an industry out of exploiting the famine for political purposes.

Jesus. · 01-01-2015 3:01am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There is no British imperialist narrative. The British haven't made an industry out of exploiting the famine for political purposes.

To which "industry" do you refer? I think I missed that one

eire4 · 01-01-2015 10:49pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Aah, the old "i don't like what you say, so I'll call you a west brit/loyalist/Stockholm syndrome sufferer. Where I am from is irrelevant, but you can read my posting history and make up your own mind.

This thread is about the famine. The poster that resurrected it asked why I claimed it is used as a weapon or a rallying call. Drogheda is the perfect example of this.

Those that died in the famine were exploited and their memory continues to be exploited today, although now for political/nationalist reasons.

Being the person who got this thread going again I have consistently been clear that my support for the recent introduction of the National Famine Memorial Day and support for the changing of that days current status to being on a set date and to be made a national holiday was based on the belief that given the immense nature of this traumatic event in our history it was very important that we paid our respects and remembered.

To hate is easy to forgive much more difficult. But as I mentioned I feel that a National Famine Memorial Day could be part of the healing process both within the island of Ireland and between Ireland and Britain. There will always be haters but I think I am on safe ground in saying that the majority of people on the island of Ireland would like to see a true and deep healing on our island.

Sadly I sense much hate when I read your posts.That is of course your right. For me remembering the famine and support for the National Famine Memorial Day and making it a national holiday is simply about paying our respects and remembering such an immense trauma in our history.

Jesus. · 01-01-2015 11:30pm

eire4 wrote: »

Sadly I sense much hate when I read your posts.

Unfortunately I'm starting to sense that myself being honest.

Fratton Fred · 02-01-2015 10:15am

eire4 wrote: »

Being the person who got this thread going again I have consistently been clear that my support for the recent introduction of the National Famine Memorial Day and support for the changing of that days current status to being on a set date and to be made a national holiday was based on the belief that given the immense nature of this traumatic event in our history it was very important that we paid our respects and remembered.

To hate is easy to forgive much more difficult. But as I mentioned I feel that a National Famine Memorial Day could be part of the healing process both within the island of Ireland and between Ireland and Britain. There will always be haters but I think I am on safe ground in saying that the majority of people on the island of Ireland would like to see a true and deep healing on our island.

Sadly I sense much hate when I read your posts.That is of course your right. For me remembering the famine and support for the National Famine Memorial Day and making it a national holiday is simply about paying our respects and remembering such an immense trauma in our history.

You are looking for hate, because you want there to be some, but there is none.

ChicagoJoe · 02-01-2015 11:51am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There is no British imperialist narrative. The British haven't made an industry out of exploiting the famine for political purposes.

No they rely on the poppy industry instead while our unionist friends of course have thousands of drunken, sectarian marches all summer long to commemorate the 'twalfth' :rolleyes:. Doesn't it say it all how the Brits have a Holocaust day for the Jews killed in WW2 by the Germans but nothing for the millions murdered by the British empire such as in Ireland, India , the concentration camp victims of the Boer war etc.

Fratton Fred · 02-01-2015 1:12pm

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

No they rely on the poppy industry instead while our unionist friends of course have thousands of drunken, sectarian marches all summer long to commemorate the 'twalfth' :rolleyes:. Doesn't it say it all how the Brits have a Holocaust day for the Jews killed in WW2 by the Germans but nothing for the millions murdered by the British empire such as in Ireland, India , the concentration camp victims of the Boer war etc.

Joe, you have serious issues you need to address.

Jesus. · 02-01-2015 1:16pm

Freddie, what is this "industry" of famine exploitation you're banging on about?

Be honest now, you made that up didn't ye?

eire4 · 03-01-2015 7:07am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You are looking for hate, because you want there to be some, but there is none.

So you say the tone of your posts however suggest otherwise.

As for what I am looking for I suggest you take a read of my own posts again as they clearly state my preference for healing and forgiveness within Ireland and between Ireland and Britain. Again to hate is easy to forgive much more difficult but in my opinion the better path.

Hunter gatherer · 08-01-2015 2:44pm

This new program called 'Hunger' is stirring up some divisive opinion before it has even been aired. Much like here.

Markcheese · 08-01-2015 2:49pm

Hunter gatherer wrote: »

This new program called 'Hunger' is stirring up some divisive opinion before it has even been aired. Much like here.

Yup -my first reaction was hooold on there, but then think black adder goes forth - or the Italian film "life is beautiful " (beautiful,funny film) about the holocaust - so if hunger is crap I just won't watch it -

Hunter gatherer · 08-01-2015 3:59pm

I agree. People have gotten their backs up because it is being called a comedy. Others say that many comedies have been made with tragic events as the setting or place. Black Adder as you say.

I think what many people are irritated about is that it is being commissioned by a broadcaster in the UK. Though I believe the writer himself is Irish. I could be wrong there.

If it is in poor taste people can choose not to watch it. I don't think we have any right to say it can't be made. We don't hold the rights to that.

Andrew Purfield · 08-01-2015 8:43pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Aah, the old "i don't like what you say, so I'll call you a west brit/loyalist/Stockholm syndrome sufferer. Where I am from is irrelevant, but you can read my posting history and make up your own mind.

This thread is about the famine. The poster that resurrected it asked why I claimed it is used as a weapon or a rallying call. Drogheda is the perfect example of this.

Those that died in the famine were exploited and their memory continues to be exploited today, although now for political/nationalist reasons.

I am not going to go bother engaging in people's nationalities or their Lol's and will stick to the matter at hand.

It has already been factually stated by Kinealy, Coogan(Ireland's most renowned historian on several periods in modern Irish History despite another poster's bizarre rant over his competence) and others in recent years that many ships were turned away from landing in Cork and Dublin during this time. We know equally that some North American ships were blocked from landing relief on the western seaboard.

Here is a link to an article focusing on recent research and evidence brought to light by Drogheda's undisputed leading historian Brendan Matthews.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/droghedaindependent/news/turkish-boats-did-sail-up-the-boyne-27166766.html

Though going on your affinity for British history maybe you'd prefer our less celebrated Tom O' Reilly. That other unhistorical windbag is currently leading the crusade for the rehabilitation of Cromwell.

People can be as petty as they want but to dismiss the possible, indeed as Matthews calls it, the 'probable' with things like LOL to Drogheda people and Irish people who have actually read the historians and researchers work above is patent idiocy, indeed I would say eegitry for it holds idiocy in contempt. Aside from a few newspaper articles, yourself and your aide de camp have quoted few historians. This article at least directly interacts with a prime local researcher and thus points the reader towards his reliable sources, publications of the very same Brendan Matthews, or as we call him in his native East Meath 'Matthesis'.

Indeed Matthews has since released a book on the very subject http://www.independent.ie/regionals/droghedaindependent/localnotes/matthews-uncovers-more-proof-about-aid-from-ottoman-empire-28834868.html

Before anybody dismisses somebody else's history they should educate themselves.

By the way Brendan Matthews was the leading historical skeptic of such ships arriving down the years. His recent evidence based discoveries, which his book Drogheda and the Turkish Famine ships of 1847 details, has meant a complete U-Turn for him factually and it is not like such academic books are sold for the money(very little profit in his line of work).

You can buy the book in the town. That's for anybody who's actually bothered their hole visiting my hometown.

Andrew Purfield · 08-01-2015 8:51pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As I said, you can read my history if you like, it shows pretty conclusively that I am English.

I deliberately post with an English nationalist slant to play devil's advocate, but that is irrelevant to any of my points. They remain valid. When it comes to Irish history, anyone who doesn't accept the republican narrative is written off as a west brit any way.

What is so wrong with Republicanism anyways while we're on the subject?

A lot of posters on here including myself would have had ancestors evicted during the Famine btw and we remember what the British narrative was, is and forever shall remain!

The redundant servant on a plot leased by my ancestors held a stick of bread up as in to say 'This too', so we should make no apologies for trying to find dignity and justice in commemorating the dead factually. The modest numbers of dead confirmed by Pat Coogan's work are at least 1.9 million. The numbers emigrated also close to 2 million. The population dropped from nearly 9 million to well under 4 million. Coogan himself states his figures are the recorded figures and the death toll and emigration toll must have been higher given census figures. Indeed many people died during and not long after Emigration anyways. That's why they were called Coffin Ships.

A popular Derry Phrase for Bull is 'And One Million Emigrated'. I won't even comment on what the British written history likes to paint the death toll as.

I have not seen any poster on the 10 pages of this thread use the Famine for particularly nationalist sentiment.

But while we are on the subject of historical, or rather unhistorical, narratives these are not restricted to so called Shinnerbots. Minimising the actual effects of the Famine, calling people who wish to record the generosity of the less barbaric Empires of the time, blaming everything on Irish middlemen and next to nothing on their Feudal masters(indeed praising soup kitchens in 1847 FFS and an insulting donation by an ignorant monarch who requested another head of State did not donate a penny more than her miserable self less too many Paddies be spared) are common features displayed by several posters such as yourself, JRG and Pedro as well as 1 or 2 others throughout this discussion.

Our Family's Eviction, like the Turkish ships which were not recorded as Turkish but as foreign in the ship logs due to Britain's desire to not only starve the Irish while exporting all food but blocking imported food at that, wasn't written down anywhere of note either though so I suppose it never happened.

Like I said you only know what you learnt in school, wherever that was, and by your own admission it was a 5 minute coverage of 'The Potato Famine' as a sort of long term provocation against British rule in Ireland.

Now we have this other Gobshyte coming out with a comedy on Channel four about it. And people wonder why 'Republicans' get upset.

We basically have 4-5 posters on here looking to blame the famine on the Irish themselves because later generations used the memory to kick the Brits out of the 26 counties and cos it's a traumatic national memory that Shinners supposedly use for propaganda(cos no English nationalism is used for propaganda and Cromwell does not have a statue outside Westminster at all at all at all).

Andrew Purfield · 08-01-2015 9:20pm

Hunter gatherer wrote: »

I agree. People have gotten their backs up because it is being called a comedy. Others say that many comedies have been made with tragic events as the setting or place. Black Adder as you say.

I think what many people are irritated about is that it is being commissioned by a broadcaster in the UK. Though I believe the writer himself is Irish. I could be wrong there.

If it is in poor taste people can choose not to watch it. I don't think we have any right to say it can't be made. We don't hold the rights to that.

The difference is many within the British public as evidenced on this thread think it was a Potato Famine where only a million died and emigrated(sure the other 3 million never existed!!).

Anything from 2-4 million people died. Coogan puts a conservative estimate at 1.9-2.1 million going on what figures he could find. The conservatively factual minimum he gives is twice that we are spoonfed.

It was genocide pure and simple.

British people understand ww1 cos their ancestors lived through it. They do not all understand exactly what Britain did in Ireland in that murderous decade, not to mind previously. Cromwell is revered in Republican and academic circles in South England and has a statue outside Parliament Buildings.

Poppy day/season more like and the attitude to the British Army basically sum up what current attitudes to the history of Empire there are.

Fratton Fred · 08-01-2015 9:27pm

Andrew Purfield wrote: »

It was genocide pure and simple.

British people understand ww1 cos their ancestors lived through it. They do not all understand exactly what Britain did in Ireland in that murderous decade, not to mind previously. Cromwell is revered in Republican and academic circles in South England and has a statue outside Parliament Buildings.

Poppy day/season more like and the attitude to the British Army basically sum up what current attitudes to the history of Empire there are.

That sums up your rant nicely.

I must dig up that podcast where a history lecturer handed TPC his arse regarding his last book.

He isn't a historian, by the way, he is an author who writes books on a certain type of history, for a certain audience.

The Irish famine?

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