The Holocaust

Zebra3 · 07-02-2009 10:24pm #1

Serious question.

Does the "Holocaust" refer to all those who were murdered in the German death camps or to the "Final Solution" of the so-called Jewish question?

McArmalite · 08-02-2009 9:33pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Serious question.

Does the "Holocaust" refer to all those who were murdered in the German death camps or to the "Final Solution" of the so-called Jewish question?

Good question. According to wiki ( and I know that wiki can have it's faults but can also be very accurate ) Holocaust - " also known as haShoah (Hebrew: השואה), Churben (Yiddish: חורבן) is the term generally used to describe the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist German Workers’ Party (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler. "

The concentration camps in WW2 has been hijacked by the zionists to justify the annexation of Palestine so they can carry out policies that Adolf and co. would have admired, mass murder, ethnic cleansing etc. Not saying their in his league, but I'm sure given half a chance they'd love to carry out his policies on the Palestians.

Maybe someone can produce a breakdown of the figures for the various backgrounds of the people, such as the handicapped, mentally ill, political and religious opponents as well as the numbers of Jewish killed. I believe their was up to half a million German citizens who opposed the Nazi's who perished in the camps from the early 30's to the end of the war.

Fratton Fred · 09-02-2009 9:52am

Didn't I read on a thread somewhere that percentage of the population wise, the Romas suffered worse than anyone. I kind of look at it like this, did it heppen? Without a doubt. Has there been exploitation of it to meet own ends? I would say there has. Are the numbers accurate? Probably not, but does it matter? Does it matter if 4million people died or 10 million, it was still the most henous thing the world has ever seen.

Zebra3 · 09-02-2009 3:18pm

Thanks for the posts lads.

The reasons why I posted the question was I out a couple of weeks ago with some friends (mix of Irish and mainland western Europeans) and the subject of holocaust denial came up.

Of course what happened was horrendous, but I feel the laws in place in Germany and Austria are wrong. I also feel that what most people know about the holocaust, i.e. 6,000,000 jews were murdered, is in itself a form of holocaust denial/misinformation if indeed non-jewish murders in the death camps are included as part of the holocaust.

Does anyone know how those laws in Germany and Austria work? Do the governments just say:"here's the official spiel, anyone says different they're going off to jail!"?

hivizman · 10-02-2009 12:44am

This article in Wikipedia summarises the main legal provisions relating to Holocaust denial in different countries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

brianthebard · 10-02-2009 12:45am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

No holocaust denial laws do not deny people the right to investigate and research and review the holocaust, but they do protect against people like Richard Williamson who said that only 300,000 people died in the holocaust and no one was gassed. This is a gross negation of the facts. However if someone were to provide compelling evidence that the total number of people who died in the holocaust was 4 million or even lower (I don't know how low, and obviously the burden of evidence would become greater as the figure descends) then they could not be accused of holocaust denial.

hivizman · 10-02-2009 1:13am

If you are interested in Holocaust denial, you probably have these references anyway, but in case you don't, the key book is Deborah Lipstadt's Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory (Penguin, 1994). This was the book that led to the libel action against Lipstadt by David Irving, who denied Lipstadt's suggestion that he was a Holocaust denier. Irving was demolished in the court hearing, largely thanks to the evidence of Professor Richard Evans (now Regius Professor of History at Cambridge University). The book on the trial by Evans Telling Lies About Hitler: The Holocaust, History and the David Irving Trial (Verso: 2002) is well worth reading (as is Evans's stunning 3-volume history The Coming of the Third Reich, The Third Reich in Power and The Third Reich at War).

An American historian who has analysed how the "idea" of the Holocaust emerged (some might say "was constructed") in the years after the Second World War is Peter Novick, in The Holocaust and Collective Memory (published in the USA as The Holocaust in American Life). Novick is interested in how a wide range of disparate events were linked together under the collective label "the Holocaust", how the emphasis on the extermination of the Jews perhaps downplays the other groups who were systematically killed, and how "the Holocaust" came to replace "the Final Solution" as the key term.

IRISH RAIL · 10-02-2009 1:19am

McArmalite wrote: »

The concentration camps in WW2 has been hijacked by the zionists to justify the annexation of Palestine so they can carry out policies that Adolf and co. would have admired, mass murder, ethnic cleansing etc. Not saying their in his league, but I'm sure given half a chance they'd love to carry out his policies on the Palestians.
.

I wonder how much help the IRA gave to hitler and his final solution?

brianthebard · 10-02-2009 1:24am

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I wonder how much help the IRA gave to hitler and his final solution?

None? Do you have some evidence for this statement or you just a bit tipsy?

Zebra3 · 10-02-2009 2:37am

Thanks for the info on the denial part of things folks, but can people answer or give their opinions on my original question.

IRISH RAIL · 10-02-2009 3:29am

brianthebard wrote: »

None? Do you have some evidence for this statement or you just a bit tipsy?[/QUOTE
neither it was a sort of topic reletad qeustion.
we know the IRA supported hitler and we know some IRA men acted as spies for germany during the war. I wonder if there was any support for the holocaust by republicans kind of goes hand in hand.

brianthebard · 10-02-2009 10:33am

Zebra3 wrote: »

Thanks for the info on the denial part of things folks, but can people answer or give their opinions on my original question.

The Holocaust refers to the final solution jewish exclusive. The word holocaust can be used to describe the attempted extermination of more than one peoples. Personally I prefer to use the word holocaust, I don't believe that any one group who died in the concentration camps should be preferenced in the way we remember them.

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

brianthebard wrote: »

None? Do you have some evidence for this statement or you just a bit tipsy?

neither it was a sort of topic reletad qeustion.
we know the IRA supported hitler and we know some IRA men acted as spies for germany during the war. I wonder if there was any support for the holocaust by republicans kind of goes hand in hand.

Prove it or you're trolling.

Zebra3 · 10-02-2009 3:54pm

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

we know the IRA supported hitler and we know some IRA men acted as spies for germany during the war. I wonder if there was any support for the holocaust by republicans kind of goes hand in hand.

No idea how much help, if any, the IRA gave the Germans, but it would have paled into insignificance when compared with the help the British gave them when they handed over the Sudetenland part of Czechoslovakia to the nazis.

10-02-2009 7:09pm

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

brianthebard wrote: »

None? Do you have some evidence for this statement or you just a bit tipsy?[/QUOTE
neither it was a sort of topic reletad qeustion.
we know the IRA supported hitler and we know some IRA men acted as spies for germany during the war. I wonder if there was any support for the holocaust by republicans kind of goes hand in hand.

The Germans hardly told the IRA "oh btw, we're killing all the inferior races, are you okay with that?" No-one really knew about the Holocaust until the camps were liberated.

cherrypicker555 · 11-02-2009 12:41am

994 wrote: »

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

The Germans hardly told the IRA "oh btw, we're killing all the inferior races, are you okay with that?" No-one really knew about the Holocaust until the camps were liberated.

The crystal nicht was shown in cinemas in 38. It was known fromm 33 that the Nazis sent trade unions, gays etc to concentration camps.

IRA commander Frank Ryan worked for a nazi dept,whos leader was later hanged for exterminating serbs.

Operation kathleen was the Nazi plan to invade Ireland and use the IRA as quslings, but Nazi spies who landed in Ireland found the IRA to be incompetent drunks.

cherrypicker555 · 11-02-2009 12:48am

Zebra3 wrote: »

No idea how much help, if any, the IRA gave the Germans, but it would have paled into insignificance when compared with the help the British gave them when they handed over the Sudetenland part of Czechoslovakia to the nazis.

Sudetenland was previously part of Germany, French Prime Minister Daladiert was also involved in the Munich pact. It was an attempt to avoid a world war.

How can this be compared to IRA quislings helping the Nazis in plans to invade Ireland ? ie operation green and kathleen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Kathleen

. "It decided that British naval superiority made such an invasion impossible"

hivizman · 12-02-2009 12:18am

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

Sudetenland was previously part of Germany, French Prime Minister Daladier was also involved in the Munich pact. It was an attempt to avoid a world war.

Sudetenland was never part of Germany. It was part of the Kingdom of Bohemia, which from 1526 was a possession of the Habsburgs, and later part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Czechoslovakia was created out of Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia after the First World War. The area known as the Sudetenland was largely, though not entirely, populated by ethnic Germans, who had been settling there since the 13th century.

cherrypicker555 · 12-02-2009 12:29am

hivizman wrote: »

Sudetenland was never part of Germany. It was part of the Kingdom of Bohemia, which from 1526 was a possession of the Habsburgs, and later part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Czechoslovakia was created out of Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia after the First World War. The area known as the Sudetenland was largely, though not entirely, populated by ethnic Germans, who had been settling there since the 13th century.

Ok it was part of a place which is now part of what is now called Germany.:rolleyes:

hivizman · 12-02-2009 12:41am

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

Ok it was part of a place which is now part of what is now called Germany.:rolleyes:

No, the Sudetenland remained part of Czechoslovakia, though purged of its ethnic German population, after the Second World War. And although Czechoslovakia has split into the Czech and Slovak Republics, the Sudetenland is still not part of anything that is now called Germany.

cherrypicker555 · 12-02-2009 1:10am

hivizman wrote: »

No, the Sudetenland remained part of Czechoslovakia, though purged of its ethnic German population, after the Second World War. And although Czechoslovakia has split into the Czech and Slovak Republics, the Sudetenland is still not part of anything that is now called Germany.

Did i say it was, go back to sleep :rolleyes:

McArmalite · 12-02-2009 9:44pm

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I wonder how much help the IRA gave to hitler and his final solution?

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

neither it was a sort of topic reletad qeustion.
we know the IRA supported hitler and we know some IRA men acted as spies for germany during the war. I wonder if there was any support for the holocaust by republicans kind of goes hand in hand.

In my post #2, I said “The concentration camps in WW2 has been hijacked by the zionists to justify the annexation of Palestine “. But it looks like this thread has also been hijacked by a zionist to divert discussion on the make up of those killed in the Final Solution into a discussion on the IRA alleged support of Hitler :rolleyes::). Just how many Jews did the IRA kill in Ireland Irish Rail or should that be Isreali Rail

?? ?

As absurd a discussion as you could get, the reality was that Frank Ryan and a few IRA men made overtures to the Germans for weapons etc to fight a just and honourable cause, the british occupation forces in Ireland. But if Irish Rail and our unionist friend cherrypicker are anything to go by, you’d think the IRA had been the SS and camp guards who rounded up the Roma’s, political opponents, Jews, mentally and physically ill and forced them into the gas chambers. As brianthebard stated " Prove it or you're trolling ".

McArmalite · 12-02-2009 10:09pm

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

The crystal nicht was shown in cinemas in 38. It was known fromm 33 that the Nazis sent trade unions, gays etc to concentration camps.

Crystal nacht was a terrible pogrom where nazi mobs openly aided by the German police and army attacked and looted Jewish homes. But I don't know why a unionist would point an accusing finger at the nazi's, as unionist mobs, openly aided by the british police and army attacked and looted Catholic homes in terrible pogroms also ??

IRA commander Frank Ryan worked for a nazi dept,whos leader was later hanged for exterminating serbs.

To quote brianthebard again - " Prove it or you're trolling ".

Operation kathleen was the Nazi plan to invade Ireland and use the IRA as quslings, but Nazi spies who landed in Ireland found the IRA to be incompetent drunks......How can this be compared to IRA quislings helping the Nazis in plans to invade Ireland ? ie operation green and kathleen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Kathleen

This particuliar article on wiki on the so called " Plan Kathleen " is a complete piece of fiction, probably written by one of our lovely unionist friends no doubt. It can't be traced through four authoritive studies into German Intelligence ops in Ireland, namely -
The Secret Army: The IRA 1916-1979 - J. Bowyer Bell (1971)
Irish Secrets - German Espionage in wartime Ireland 1939-1945 - Mark M. Hall (2003)
The Shamrock and the Swastika - German Espionage in Ireland in WW2 - Carolle J. Carter (1977)
Spies in Ireland - Enno Stephan (1963)

It's just unionist fiction.

"It decided that British naval superiority made such an invasion impossible"

British naval superiority may well have made such an invasion impossible. But the unionists wouldn't know much about WW2 anyway, as they refused to be conscripted as their feet were too sore from all the orange marching

:D.

Now, any chance we could get back to the orginal post " Does the "Holocaust" refer to all those who were murdered in the German death camps or to the "Final Solution" of the so-called Jewish question? "

IRISH RAIL · 12-02-2009 10:22pm

McArmalite wrote: »

In my post #2, I said “The concentration camps in WW2 has been hijacked by the zionists to justify the annexation of Palestine “. But it looks like this thread has also been hijacked by a zionist to divert discussion on the make up of those killed in the Final Solution into a discussion on the IRA alleged support of Hitler :rolleyes::). Just how many Jews did the IRA kill in Ireland Irish Rail or should that be Isreali Rail ?? ?

As absurd a discussion as you could get, the reality was that Frank Ryan and a few IRA men made overtures to the Germans for weapons etc to fight a just and honourable cause, the british occupation forces in Ireland. But if Irish Rail and our unionist friend cherrypicker are anything to go by, you’d think the IRA had been the SS and camp guards who rounded up the Roma’s, political opponents, Jews, mentally and physically ill and forced them into the gas chambers. As brianthebard stated " Prove it or you're trolling ".

some illogicol posting above,
as we can see it is an interesting point on the subject of the Holocaust. If this were an Italian thread I could ask the same thing of Italian complacency in the Holocaust.
Are you worried your republican image image may be tarnished?

as for Brian the Bard read what I wrote again I wasnt making a statemenat that had to be "proved"
I asked a question now for the back to school lesson for some people here,

You dont have to prove anything when you ask a question.
It just makes you look bad when you try and project me as a troll when people can see your agenda.

IRISH RAIL · 12-02-2009 10:26pm

McArmalite wrote: »

Just how many Jews did the IRA kill in Ireland Irish Rail or should that be Isreali Rail ?? ?
QUOTE]

You tell me the IRA never cared about religion or politics when they butchered people.

as for the Israeli rail snipe did you stay up all night thinking of that mr AR15

Zebra3 · 13-02-2009 12:35am

Why are people trying to change the thread which is about The Holocaust into something to do with the IRA?

IRISH RAIL · 13-02-2009 1:20am

Zebra3 wrote: »

Why are people trying to change the thread which is about The Holocaust into something to do with the IRA?

I asked a question about IRA spport for Hitler and the Holocaust.

Shutuplaura · 13-02-2009 6:50am

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I asked a question about IRA spport for Hitler and the Holocaust.

The IRA didn't support the holocaust and its pointless trying to imply that it did. The IRA tried to get arms and assistance from germany, which is not the same thing. The Stern gang in palestine, a jewish Zionist group which later became one of the founding organisations of the IDF was also seeking assistance from the Nazi's at his time. Now its quite clear they were not supporting the holocaust either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)#Contact_with_Nazi_authorities

Joey the lips · 13-02-2009 8:44am

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

brianthebard wrote: »

None? Do you have some evidence for this statement or you just a bit tipsy?[/QUOTE
neither it was a sort of topic reletad qeustion.
we know the IRA supported hitler and we know some IRA men acted as spies for germany during the war. I wonder if there was any support for the holocaust by republicans kind of goes hand in hand.

Irish rail your information is incorrect- Sorry to disappoint. The goverment at the time which was Eammon Dev helped hitler but for different reasons than you mention

1. Anybody ho was against england ireland supported
2. Although it was pointed out later, none of the world believed the extermination was on the level it was or any where near it. The eastern europeans supported hitler in his quest( This is fact not fiction)
3. Hitler had planned to take over ireland in an operation called "OPERATION GREEN" do you honestly think that the F/F goverment would have spoke to him at the time if they new this

and finally
4. Ireland relationship with Germany extended to periods far before hitler, As far back as 1800-1900's we have been getting help from germany. Most famous was when roger casement( a true republician and not a murderer) was caught by british forses with guns on the asgard

Its very important you consider this

Hitler and his henchmen were murdering [EMAIL="B@@tards"]B@@tards[/EMAIL] and there is no doubt in my mond that if the vatican at the time refused to step in an condem it, ireland who's morals came from the vatican would not have.

mountainyman · 13-02-2009 9:21am

Most Europeans were anti semites before the holocaust. Anti semitism is a profoundly important part of european culture.

I don't understand Irish Rail's reference to the Italians either by the way. While the Italian state was pro Hitler it was not anti semitic until 1938. The Italians didn't run death camps and it wasn't until the Italians surrendered that the Germans began shipping large numbers of people to the death camps.

Is there some claim being made that state's which purusued their own interests in conjunction with the German state's bear some responsibilty for what happened to German and Eastern European Jews in the 1940s ( a concerted campaign of cultural, economic and social destruction accompanied bya very successful campaign of mass murder).

It would be necessary to show that the people and rulers of these states knew what the germans were doing and also that they knew it was different form ordinary traditional anti semitism.

Most european jews did not initially understand that nazi exterminationism was different from traditional anti-semitism, so it unrealistic to expect the IRA to have understood this.

By the way in response to the originla question which we should now address.

[1] The holocaust refers to the mass nmurder of between 4.5 and 6 million Europan Jews in the 1940s

[2] It does not refer to the mass murder of gypsies this is called the Porajmos.

[3] It does NOT refer to the suffering of many people in Eastern Europe which did not take place in the death camps.

[4] I would say however that it does refer to mass killings like those in Riga and Tallinn and to the activities of the special intervention groups.

The holocaust is central to the legitimacy of the Israeli state. However just because the Israeli state indulges in war crimes does not in some way make the destruction of European jewry in the 1940s less of a crime or less tragic. In fact the jews are infinitely better masters than the Nazis. The fact that I have heard people making this comparison in order to defend Israel shows how far the Israeli state has slipped into an absolutely foul moral bankruptcy. Worse in my opinion is the fact that there are almost no voices of Jewish dissent. The great Jewish virtues of mercy and empathy have been paralysed by Isreal's lack of virtue.

As for the sad fate of the Palestinians it would be a footnote in history now if their suffering wasn't useful for the governing elites of the Arab world. Perhaps the fate of the Jews is to be reassimilated back into the semitic world (over the very long term). If so that will be the western world's loss.

But I don't think the Jews can be blamed for not wanting to live under the rule of the Hashemites, Mubarak, Hamas or the Assad's.

sorry for going on so long. I am in work too early.

Joey the lips · 13-02-2009 9:30am

mountainyman wrote: »

Most Europeans were anti semites before the holocaust. Anti semitism is a profoundly important part of european culture...........

.

Brilliant wish I could have said it better. The holocaust is mostly linked to the jews but more than 200000 political prisoners and russian pow died along with them

Not including the amount of innocent the germans killed while traveling through russia.

partly why the russians were so bitter later on

mountainyman · 13-02-2009 9:39am

The Russians got their revenge. The Jews didn't and I think to some extent they are expiating what the Germans did to them by theri crimes against the Arabs.

This is a common phenomenon. I have heard that the French in Algeria were doings something similar (again against the Arabs!) and of course the holocaust itself is a response to Germany's hum iliation at being beaten by the french (though there was a very old belief in Germany that the creation of Utopia would be accompanied by mass slaughter of Jews.

The Holocaust

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