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Ireland has the highest proportion of under occupied dwellings in the EU.

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    #62
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,009 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Graham wrote: »
    For statistical purposes, a dwelling is defined as under-occupied if the household living in it has at its disposal more than the minimum number of rooms considered adequate, and equal to:

    one room for the household;
    one room per couple in the household;
    one room for each single person aged 18 or more;
    one room per pair of single people of the same gender between 12 and 17 years of age;
    one room for each single person between 12 and 17 years of age and not included in the previous category;
    one room per pair of children under 12 years of age.

    Ok, so I think that means a 4 bed with kids under 12 requires 6 children to escape the underoccupancy tag.

    Which is impossible since almost nobody is having families that size.

    And even if it were possible, as soon as the kids hit 12 you need another three bedrooms.

    I'm not surprised at the 70%.


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    #63
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,461 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    seasidedub wrote: »
    And again - is under occupancy on the basis of rooms or square metres? Makes a big difference. A bedroom I Ireland can be smaller than the legal definition of a room in, say, Germany.


    This is the point exactly.

    My house, like many others, has a "box" bedroom. I use this as an office, so that I don't have to travel to work everyday in rush hour. I am making good use of this space, but because it is a "bedroom" am I supposed to have an additional person in the house so that it is not under occupied?

    These box bedrooms are the size of the walk-in closet in many developed countries.


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    #64
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Lumen wrote: »
    Which is impossible since almost nobody is having families that size.

    Good point.

    From which you might infer we don't need as many houses with that many bedrooms.


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    #65
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Graham wrote: »
    Social housing is less than 10% of all housing. It's not a social housing issue.


    No but you are trying to make a direct link between housing density and occupation and a housing problem.

    We don't have the same historical populations, housing culture - wants vs needs (rent vs buy). As a result the large housing monstrosities like say in Prague etc do not exist in Ireland.

    Housing density figures in Ireland would be skewed by rural population centres and the associated low housing densities. That is skewing the figures for Ireland. How does Dublin compare ? What are we comparing the densities with ? Is it Prague like planning ? Is that more desirable ?


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    #66
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    STB. wrote: »
    As a result the large monstrosities you say in Prague etc do not exist in Ireland.

    You can't be suggesting the two options are; under-occupied semis for everyone or Prague style tower blocks?


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    #67
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,009 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Graham wrote: »
    Good point.

    From which you might infer we don't need as many houses with that many bedrooms.
    Not for rent, because moving tenancy is relatively cheap and simple.

    But owner occupied housing is inevitably stickier, and in any case 125sqm is not excessive for a family of four or five.

    A measure based on floor area (say 30sqm + 30sqm per person) would make much more sense.

    And obvs underoccupancy is only a problem where it's a problem. Do we care about half empty houses in Leitrim?


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    #68
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Lumen wrote: »
    Do we care about half empty houses in Leitrim?

    Is under-occupancy causing particular problems in Leitrim?


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    #69
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Lumen wrote: »
    Ok, so I think that means a 4 bed with kids under 12 requires 6 children to escape the underoccupancy tag.

    Which is impossible since almost nobody is having families that size.

    And even if it were possible, as soon as the kids hit 12 you need another three bedrooms.

    .....
    Graham wrote: »
    Good point.

    From which you might infer we don't need as many houses with that many bedrooms.

    Or you might infer the under occupancy thing is a tad mad.


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    #70
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Augeo wrote: »
    Or you might infer the under occupancy thing is a tad mad.

    Because we have the whole housing thing so well sorted?


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    #71
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graham wrote: »
    You can't be suggesting the two options are; under-occupied semis for everyone or Prague style tower blocks?

    What's with the strawmen in this thread....


    He's saying theres a lot of factors at play historical and other things to cause housing to be different. Some of which we don't want to copy.


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    #72
    Nobelium
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    seasidedub wrote: »
    And by the way - this idea that the desire to own ones home is unique or special to Ireland is rubbish. I've lived in several European countries and never met a single person who did not express a desire to at some stage own their own home. They may rent for longer etc, but most eventually buy. You can look at eurostats home ownership statistics and see a number of EU countries with higher levels of home ownership than Ireland.

    Vienna in the news recently a lot, about social housing there. Doesn't mention that loads of Viennese even the ones renting from the city own a house in the mountains or by a lake and often retire there, ditto Finland - they all have weekend homes, but may have a "city" apartment on cheap local authority rent.

    Any human being that doesn't fully own their own private property is going to be screwed over sooner or later.


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    #73
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    beauf wrote: »
    What's with the strawmen in this thread....


    He's saying theres a lot of factors at play historical and other things to cause housing to be different. Some of which we don't want to copy.

    I'd agree there is much about parts of other Nations housing/housing policy that we don't want to copy.

    I don't recall anyone suggesting we should copy anything.


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    #74
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graham wrote: »
    Because we have the whole housing thing so well sorted?

    Because people need understand to not to accept click bait headlines without questioning the validity and context.


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    #75
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Graham wrote: »
    You can't be suggesting the two options are; under-occupied semis for everyone or Prague style tower blocks?


    The population density in Dublin is 4,811 km2/sq. Comparatively Prague is 2,611 km2/sq. How does that stack up with the published Eurostat figures ? Is it lost in the dilution of housing densities in Ireland in including rural areas ?

    I am suggesting that the needs and wants of different Ireland vs Europe are vastly different. We are not a rent culture. I have also suggested the other environmental reasons why the stats are meaningless.

    Under occupied stats are meaningless. Markets and ones means dictate housing density. Unless you are suggesting that the government dictate what size house one lives in ?

    Some might say that planning for this already exists through low and high density planning areas in LAPs ?????


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    #76
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graham wrote: »
    I'd agree there is much about parts of other Nations housing/housing policy that we don't want to copy.

    I don't recall anyone suggesting we should copy anything.

    Why else are we talking about Europe.


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    #77
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    lalababa wrote: »
    Down in West cork & Kerry I was doing abit of canvassing type work a few winter's ago and the amount of unocuupied holiday homes was an eye-opener. I'm sure things are similar all along the coast.
    What's to be done. ??

    Parts of the Dingle peninsula are spectacularly overbuilt with holiday homes - how on earth did Kerry CoCo give them all planning - a national scandal IMHO. Ditto to some extent in coastal parts of Wexford.


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    #78
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    beauf wrote: »
    Why else are we talking about Europe.

    because it's a meaningful comparison.

    You will find comparisons with our European partners occur over an enormous range of sectors/activities.


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    #79
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    STB. wrote: »
    Markets and ones means dictate housing density. Unless you are suggesting that the government dictate what size house one lives in ?

    Some might say that planning for this already exists through low and high density planning areas in LAPs ?????

    Government absolutely does influence property sizes/occupancy through a multitude of avenues.

    Planning, development, taxation........

    It's those areas that need 'adjustment' to fix the other areas.


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    #80
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    STB. wrote: »
    Or how about the Prague model ?

    1920px-Panel%C3%A1ky_Ko%C5%A1%C3%ADk.jpg

    Yes for Dublin and Cork etc. If urban living is the future, that's the way to go.


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    #81
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    seasidedub wrote: »
    And by the way - this idea that the desire to own ones home is unique or special to Ireland is rubbish. I've lived in several European countries and never met a single person who did not express a desire to at some stage own their own home. They may rent for longer etc, but most eventually buy. You can look at eurostats home ownership statistics and see a number of EU countries with higher levels of home ownership than Ireland.

    Vienna in the news recently a lot, about social housing there. Doesn't mention that loads of Viennese even the ones renting from the city own a house in the mountains or by a lake and often retire there, ditto Finland - they all have weekend homes, but may have a "city" apartment on cheap local authority rent.

    You have to understand what really happens in other countries before believing the lefty hype on the radio..

    Actually that is true. Neither Ireland nor Britain have high ownership rates by European standards. Not anymore.

    It’s a bit different from under occupied though.


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    #82
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Graham wrote: »
    because it's a meaningful comparison.

    You will find comparisons with out European partners occur over an enormous range of sectors/activities.

    It is not meaningful Graham.

    What you are saying is that our culture needs to change. The culture of wanting to own a home rather than living in a built to rent culture, some of those countries have drastic overcrowding as a result.

    As already pointed out the figures are also skewed by rural Ireland and our landscape.

    Eitherway, I don't think we are ready just yet to allow government policy to dictate what we can and cannot live in. Private ownership is dictated by means.
    BarryD2 wrote: »
    Yes for Dublin and Cork etc. If urban living is the future, that's the way to go.

    Best of luck selling them Barry. They tried that for Social Housing in Dublin. It worked out well didn't it ? What we need is more Ballymuns.


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    #83
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    Parts of the Dingle peninsula are spectacularly overbuilt with holiday homes - how on earth did Kerry CoCo give them all planning - a national scandal IMHO. Ditto to some extent in coastal parts of Wexford.

    I've seen it in Wexford. Sligo, Leitrim is the same. It's like someone sprinkled 100s and 1000s of housing all over the country. Looks awful. We are seeing the same in Dublin now they allow any building no matter how jarring or out of place with its surroundings.


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    #84
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graham wrote: »
    Ireland has the highest proportion of under occupied dwellings in the EU.

    70% of the population in Ireland were living in under-occupied dwellings in 2016.
    In contrast, fewer than 15% of the population in Europe were living in dwellings deemed to be too large.

    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/majority-of-underoccupied-dwellings-in-europe-found-in-ireland-37011949.html / Eurostat

    So what was your point in posting this anyway. .


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    #85
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    STB. wrote: »
    It is not meaningful Graham.

    What you are saying is that our culture needs to change. The culture of wanting to own a home rather than living in a built to rent culture, some of those countries have drastic overcrowding as a result.

    That's not what I think, said or implied.

    FYI I am absolutely, unequivocally supportive of home ownership.


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    #86
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graham wrote: »
    because it's a meaningful comparison.

    You will find comparisons with our European partners occur over an enormous range of sectors/activities.

    Maybe we should compare skiing....

    It's a simplistic comparison perhaps even inane.


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    #87
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    beauf wrote: »
    I've seen it in Wexford. Sligo, Leitrim is the same. It's like someone sprinkled 100s and 1000s of housing all over the country. Looks awful. We are seeing the same in Dublin now they allow any building no matter how jarring or out of place with its surroundings.

    Presumably the houses in/ near Dublin are permanently occupied though, which is different. The holiday house/ holiday estate blight is a different matter. And perversely for people who want to actually live and work in these attractive areas, pushes the costs of housing up.


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    #88
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    It's the same in that it's poor planning. That's all


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    #89
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Graham wrote: »
    That's not what I think, said or implied.

    FYI I am absolutely, unequivocally supportive of home ownership.


    Yet you take a meaningless and unqualified stat as gospel.
    Graham wrote: »

    under-occupied dwellings meaning that the dwellings were deemed to be too large, in terms of excess rooms and more specifically bedrooms, for the needs of the occupant household.


    Like I said throughout this thread, the article is poorly written and quantified, takes no account of ownership culture in Ireland, our island status, rural landscape, and most importantly economic centric planning on the east coast.


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    #90
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Or even the size of population. I'm sure that has an effect on the size of projects and what is viable.


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    #91
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    STB. wrote: »
    Yet you take a meaningless and unpublished stat as gospel.

    It is published.
    STB. wrote: »
    Like I said throughout this thread, the article is poorly quantified and takes no account of ownership culture in Ireland, our island status, rural landscape, and most importantly economic centric planning on the east coast.

    Struggling to see why owned houses built on the east coast would automatically make them more likely to be under occupied.


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