Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Legalise abortion

Options
1…343536373840»

Comments

  • Options
    #1172
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    You edited your post while I was replying to it so I will reply to the new material here:
    common sense brigade wrote: »
    Whats wrong with appealing to peoples emotions?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

    It is recognized as a common potential fallacy and it has it's problems. Most often the issue is that it clouds facts/arguments by appealing to peoples emotions in an attempt to distract them from the facts/arguments.
    common sense brigade wrote: »
    Conception does not take place if you use a condom therefore a person was never created and killed by abortion

    That is not what you said originally. I was replying to your original point that there are many people who would not be sitting here if abortion were legal. The fact is there are currently many people not sitting here because condoms are legal who otherwise would be. Back when condoms were not legal I am sure people back then also said "Many of you would not be here if condoms were legal" and thought they had made a good argument. However you and I both see why the argument is silly in relation to the legalization of condoms. I am merely pointing out why it is still silly when applied here.
    common sense brigade wrote: »
    I believe the unborn child has a right to life.

    I am well aware now of what you believe. It is worth recognizing the difference between knowing what someone believes and knowing whether they have any valid and defensible reasons for believing it. You for example talk about a "person" yet where is there a "person" in a 1 week old undifferentiated clump of cells? You might get around this by appealing to the existence of a "soul" which some people claim is there from the moment of conception. However given there has been no evidence offered as to the existence of such an attribute it would appear the speakers are merely making stuff up in order to create arguments for a position that otherwise does not have any.


  • Options
    #1173
    common sense brigade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 506 ✭✭✭common sense brigade


    If I am coming across that way to you I apologise. It is a sensitive issue. To clarify. I do not belive in legalising abortion. My reasons are I do genuinely believe in the right of the unborn child. However I would not like to insult or hurt anybodies feelings on here, i.e people who may have had an abortion. As it cannot be a decision that is easily made.However i had an early scan on my daughter at 6 weeks and her heart was beating. Its as simple as that for me. I do not believe she was a clump of cells.


  • Options
    #1174
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    common sense brigade wrote: »
    - what you are talking about here is miscarriage correct me if i am wrong which i am sure you will. miscarriage is natural. To go in and have an abortion procedure is not natural.
    All medical procedures are 'unnatural' though.
    Whats wrong with appealing to peoples emotions?
    It's irrational.


  • Options
    #1175
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    common sense brigade wrote: »
    If I am coming across that way to you I apologise. It is a sensitive issue. To clarify. I do not belive in legalising abortion. My reasons are I do genuinely believe in the right of the unborn child. However I would not like to insult or hurt anybodies feelings on here, i.e people who may have had an abortion.

    Again I understand where you are coming from and I am not upset by it in any way. In fact I have never once in my life been “upset” by a single thing someone has said on an internet forum. Disappointed maybe, but upset not even close.

    The point I am trying to make to you is that there is a world of difference between being engaged in something yourself, and saying it should not be allowed for everyone else to be engaged in it.

    For example I am all for the legalisation of porn even though I find it boring, useless and time wasting in my own life. I simply do not want to engage in buying it, seeing it, or engaging in it’s use. Nothing about my position on it wishes me to see it illegal for anyone else however.

    You are not into abortion. Great. It is not the choice for you. Great too. This is all your personal opinion and I am fine with it and have no argument with it and you are welcome to it. I am even happy for you.

    You want it to remain illegal so other people can not engage in it. That is a different kettle of fish and is no longer just you, your beliefs and your own personal choices.


  • Options
    #1176
    common sense brigade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 506 ✭✭✭common sense brigade


    All medical procedures are 'unnatural' though.
    well then we are agreed abortion is unnatural! joke. look I cant help how I feel about this I do not believe in Abortion. But I do agree that having a medical procedure is 'natural' so will concede you can clasify abortion as natural. It just wouldnt be natural for me I guess.
    As for being Irrational. I dont see anything wrong with a bit of emotion behind a point of view. Again maybe thats just me.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1177
    common sense brigade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 506 ✭✭✭common sense brigade


    You want it to remain illegal so other people can not engage in it. That is a different kettle of fish and is no longer just you, your beliefs and your own personal choices
    . For this I guess to expalin myself I would prefer to live in a society that did not leagalise Abortion I would use my democratic vote for No. Just as you would use it prob as a Yes. I agree with your point of view to vote Yes totally. I would just see the unborn child as a person and I would believe in their right to life. Sorry again dont want to offend anyone. I agree with most of your last post tho.


  • Options
    #1178
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Zulu I do not believe in abortion as a solution to the problem myself. But as I would not want others to push their beliefs on me, I cannot push mine on them!
    While what you are doing is somewhat commendable, it not how society works, and if we were to adopt that attitude society would quickly break down.

    I understand why you wouldn't want to push your beliefs on to others, but we have to & we do it each & every time we vote. If you believe something is wrong, then you should prevent that happening in your society. To stand by an let something bad happen because you don't want to "push your beliefs" is cowardice, is it not?


  • Options
    #1179
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    common sense brigade wrote: »
    I do not belive in legalising abortion. My reasons are I do genuinely believe in the right of the unborn child. However I would not like to insult or hurt anybodies feelings on here, i.e people who may have had an abortion. As it cannot be a decision that is easily made.
    This doesn't make sense to me. You believe that an abortion is the killing of an unborn child, yet respect those who do it or at least do not wish to offend them. It's a bit like opposing pedophilia, yet not wanting to offend child molesters.
    common sense brigade wrote: »
    well then we are agreed abortion is unnatural! joke. look I cant help how I feel about this I do not believe in Abortion. But I do agree that having a medical procedure is 'natural' so will concede you can clasify abortion as natural. It just wouldnt be natural for me I guess.
    I think you are confusing 'natural' with some form of gut feeling that it's 'wrong'.
    As for being Irrational. I dont see anythinbg wrong with a bit of emotion behind a point of view. Again maybe thats just me.
    There are good reasons for saying that acting upon emotion is not a good thing. Despite the risk of having Godwin's Law invoked, one good example of where being ruled by emotion rather than reason is a bad thing is this:
    nazi_rally.jpg


  • Options
    #1180
    common sense brigade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 506 ✭✭✭common sense brigade


    Hey Look, I think thats more than a bit harsh and insulting. I do not agree with abortion but we live in a democracy and i would respect the views of the society I live in. I would not want to go out and ram my beliefs down the throat of a girl that had decided abortion was her only way out. However if asked my opinion I would answer truthfully that I believe it is wrong. As for comparisions to Hitler and Paedaphiles that is more than a little immature and nasty.


  • Options
    #1181
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    common sense brigade wrote: »
    . For this I guess to expalin myself I would prefer to live in a society that did not leagalise Abortion I would use my democratic vote for No. Just as you would use it prob as a Yes. I agree with your point of view to vote Yes totally. I would just see the unborn child as a person and I would believe in their right to life. Sorry again dont want to offend anyone. I agree with most of your last post tho.

    Yes, at the end of the day it really is a case of „see you down the voting booth“. You are right about that. I will have my vote and you will have yours.

    However it is healthy to engage in discourse in the interim between votes on these issues regardless of whether you do so to test your own position against that of others, or because you wish to alter that of others. More often than not I do it because of the former and just enjoy the latter when it happens.

    And it is helpful for “my side” of the debate to show that the arguments for “your side” simply do not hold up. In just a few posts it has become clear that your whole position on the issue is essentially “I believe it…. Because I believe it” and I find that demonstrating that fact wherever I see it is very useful.

    In fact I often tell stories of how I like to walk up to the stalls that show in Dublin City all the pictures of what abortion looks like. I ask them what their arguments against abortion actually are. I am genuinely interested in what they have to said.

    But they just say to me “look at the pictures”. One time I said something like “Yes, they are not pretty pictures, but neither are pictures of heart bypass surgery which trust me are also very hard to look at… so are you against that too?”. After looking at me blankly for about 5 seconds the guy just said “but….. but…. Look at the pictures!”

    If emotional arguments and gory pictures really are all that the anti- side have to hold up their position I think it useful to highlight that fact whenever I am given the chance, which you just did, so ta for that.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1182
    common sense brigade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 506 ✭✭✭common sense brigade


    I remember years ago seeing the pictures of Abortions at the GPO in Dublin. You are right the demonstrators did say look at the pictures. That was their argument, mine is as I said before I felt a deeep emotional tie when I saw the scan of my daughters heart beating at 6 weeks. its irrational probably ! I can see that. But its just my view. My emotional irrational view.


  • Options
    #1183
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    It is more than a little sad that a person can recognise their own view as emotional and irrational and yet still take that view down to the voting booth and impose it democratically on others.

    Still democracy has never been perfect and it is prone to both emotion and irrationality. The Irish People would likely right now vote no to even the best ideas simply to spite the government. It might make me sad, but I do recognise it as something you take if you subscribe to a democratic voting process of any type.

    Still, I can at least be proud of myself if not others in knowing when I use my vote I only use it to vote for what I think is the right thing to do, supported by the best arguments I have available to me at the time of voting, regardless of how I emotionally feel about the outcome either way and I have often voted against my hearts emotions and desires because of this.


  • Options
    #1184
    common sense brigade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 506 ✭✭✭common sense brigade


    It is more than a little sad that a person can recognise their own view as emotional and irrational and yet still take that view down to the voting booth and impose it democratically on others.
    Its more than a little sad you cant recognise sarcasm when you read it. To move this thread along a bit. Does anyone think there may be a referendum on abortion in the near future?


  • Options
    #1185
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    If you want to make this about snide personal comments then I am afraid you are on your own in this conversation.


  • Options
    #1186
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    common sense brigade wrote: »
    Hey Look, I think thats more than a bit harsh and insulting. I do not agree with abortion but we live in a democracy and i would respect the views of the society I live in. I would not want to go out and ram my beliefs down the throat of a girl that had decided abortion was her only way out. However if asked my opinion I would answer truthfully that I believe it is wrong. As for comparisions to Hitler and Paedaphiles that is more than a little immature and nasty.
    I was making two points; the first is that it makes no sense to consider something wrong, then 'respect' others who do it. It either betrays that you don't think it all that wrong after all or the old Irish solution to an Irish problem of "as long as it's not in my back yard".

    The reference to the Nazis was simply an extreme example of when emotion does overrule reason, as happened in Germany. There are plenty of other examples one could use, closer to home, such as the present economic mess that Ireland is in, fulled by an irrational sense of greed and hubris. Emotional and irrational viewpoints have been at the core of pretty much every social ill in history.

    Neither were intended to offend and neither were immature, they were intended to answer your points, nothing more.


  • Options
    #1187
    Kevo
    Registered Users Posts: 427 ✭✭Kevo


    Greyfox wrote: »
    Yes but theirs a point when the fetus can blink, burp and do most of the things babies can do..their heart beats, twins curl up to each other, they show signs of human feelings...their is a point when the fetus becomes a human being and that happens BEFOR birth!

    This is absolutely true and for that reason I think abortions should only be legal in early pregnancy - the way it is in most countries though I feel it should be a little earlier.

    Consciousness is the important factor.....not burping, heartbeats, etc. Unfortunately this cannot be measured so brain development is a suitable alternative - it is obviously correlated with consciousness. As in at a certain level of development a level of consciousness emerges. After this stage I believe it is criminal to have an abortion.

    I think this argument also applies to euthanasia. If the person is permanently unconscious, there is no person, they are a shell.


  • Options
    #1188
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    common sense brigade wrote: »
    Does anyone think there may be a referendum on abortion in the near future?

    Oh definitely. It is at the top of every party's agenda.


  • Options
    #1189
    Yillan
    Registered Users Posts: 932 ✭✭✭Yillan


    Any possibility of a boards.ie referendum by way of a poll?


  • Options
    #1190
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Yillan wrote: »
    Any possibility of a boards.ie referendum by way of a poll?

    and what might the question be?


  • Options
    #1191
    Yillan
    Registered Users Posts: 932 ✭✭✭Yillan


    Would you vote to legalise abortion in Ireland (to the extent that it's legal in England) if there was a referendum?

    Something like that


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1192
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Kevo wrote: »
    This is absolutely true and for that reason I think abortions should only be legal in early pregnancy - the way it is in most countries though I feel it should be a little earlier.

    Consciousness is the important factor.....not burping, heartbeats, etc. Unfortunately this cannot be measured so brain development is a suitable alternative - it is obviously correlated with consciousness. As in at a certain level of development a level of consciousness emerges. After this stage I believe it is criminal to have an abortion.

    I think this argument also applies to euthanasia. If the person is permanently unconscious, there is no person, they are a shell.

    Why do you want to get rid of people with no emergent conscience?
    I know the politicians in this country are bad but that's a bit harsh :)


  • Options
    #1193
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Yillan wrote: »
    Would you vote to legalise abortion in Ireland (to the extent that it's legal in England) if there was a referendum?

    Something like that

    And then the Q. is 'to what extent is it legal in the UK'........?

    Might work for a boards poll (ie a non-important snapshot of a particular unrepresentative demographic for illustrative purposes only), but the problem with any question (incl. a referendum) on a topic like this is that there are so many diverse viewpoints even within groups who seemingly agree with each other.

    For instance, there are many of a 'pro-life' view who would agree with abortion where the foetus has a condition incompatible with life. On the reverse, there are many of a pro-choice disposition who wouldnt countenance abortions beyond 16-20 weeks. I could list another 50 inconsistencies but i wont.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement