Can Klopp get Liverpool into the Top 4 this season

OwaynOTT · 09-10-2015 10:27pm

Sand wrote: »

Not really - Top 4 means being better than the likes of Arsenal, United, City and Chelsea over the course of 38 games. Which Liverpool aren't. Even if one of them slip, there is a lot of good sides who are more than a match for Liverpool like Spurs, Southampton, West Ham, Crystal Palace and so on.

The Europa is ultimately a cup competition of the sides who cant get into the CL and who don't have the financial resources of even a top 10 side in the EPL. And Liverpool only needs to get a result over 2 games in any given tie, not 38. Liverpool have more of a chance making an impact there than making top 4.

Whatever you make of Klopp, the reality is the Liverpool squad is fairly poor and was built up by a possession focused manager. Klopp on the other hand is an emotion based, blood and guts manager. He will need to do a lot of work to replace Rodgers ideal of a good footballer with his own. And that's even if the transfer committee has been disbanded which it likely hasn't.

It's only a competition of clubs that are t good enough for champions league until the champion league teams come into it after Christmas. Which could easily include any of the four English champion league clubs.

niallo27 · 09-10-2015 10:30pm

Sand wrote: »

Not really - Top 4 means being better than the likes of Arsenal, United, City and Chelsea over the course of 38 games. Which Liverpool aren't. Even if one of them slip, there is a lot of good sides who are more than a match for Liverpool like Spurs, Southampton, West Ham, Crystal Palace and so on.

The Europa is ultimately a cup competition of the sides who cant get into the CL and who don't have the financial resources of even a top 10 side in the EPL. And Liverpool only needs to get a result over 2 games in any given tie, not 38. Liverpool have more of a chance making an impact there than making top 4.

Whatever you make of Klopp, the reality is the Liverpool squad is fairly poor and was built up by a possession focused manager. Klopp on the other hand is an emotion based, blood and guts manager. He will need to do a lot of work to replace Rodgers ideal of a good footballer with his own. And that's even if the transfer committee has been disbanded which it likely hasn't.

But if you think the likes of West Ham, Southampton and palace can challenge liverpool and overtake them despite nothing in the last few seasons backing this up then surely by your same logic liverpool should be able to overtake one of the top 4.

Caovyn Lineah · 09-10-2015 10:33pm

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Do Liverpool have the highest wage bill in the Europa league?

I'm sure the 4 English teams in the champions league have a higher wage bill, all of whom could easily be in the competition after Christmas.

Iused2likebusts · 09-10-2015 10:35pm

Sand wrote: »

Not really - Top 4 means being better than the likes of Arsenal, United, City and Chelsea over the course of 38 games. Which Liverpool aren't. Even if one of them slip, there is a lot of good sides who are more than a match for Liverpool like Spurs, Southampton, West Ham, Crystal Palace and so on.

The Europa is ultimately a cup competition of the sides who cant get into the CL and who don't have the financial resources of even a top 10 side in the EPL. And Liverpool only needs to get a result over 2 games in any given tie, not 38. Liverpool have more of a chance making an impact there than making top 4.

Whatever you make of Klopp, the reality is the Liverpool squad is fairly poor and was built up by a possession focused manager. Klopp on the other hand is an emotion based, blood and guts manager. He will need to do a lot of work to replace Rodgers ideal of a good footballer with his own. And that's even if the transfer committee has been disbanded which it likely hasn't.

I wouldnt back any english team including the 4 that are in the CL to win the europa league.

Sand · 09-10-2015 10:36pm

Caovyn Lineah wrote: »

So you're still saying Moyes would have been a better appointment?

I think Moyes would have been less gif worthy, but he has a proven ability to build up a squad from relegation material to top 6 material in the EPL. Klopp certainly has a skillset, but he didn't prove able to deal with a disastrous decline in the Dortmund squad who were better players than Liverpool and more familiar to Klopp than the Liverpool squad were. In the Bundesliga, he only had to deal with Bayern as a genuine CL force. In the EPL, he is dealing with 4 of them.

I truly understand Liverpool fans are over the moon regarding Klopp. And I get nothing I say will be acknowledged. But its a bad move for Klopp because when he likely fails to break the top 4 financial stranglehold, he doesn't have a lot of places to go except down. And I cant see Klopp single-handedly changing the reality of Liverpool's situation as a top 8 side given the money flowing into the EPL.

Iused2likebusts · 09-10-2015 10:39pm

Sand wrote: »

I think Moyes would have been less gif worthy, but he has a proven ability to build up a squad from relegation material to top 6 material in the EPL. Klopp certainly has a skillset, but he didn't prove able to deal with a disastrous decline in the Dortmund squad who were better players than Liverpool and more familiar to Klopp than the Liverpool squad were. In the Bundesliga, he only had to deal with Bayern as a genuine CL force. In the EPL, he is dealing with 4 of them.

I truly understand Liverpool fans are over the moon regarding Klopp. And I get nothing I say will be acknowledged. But its a bad move for Klopp because when he likely fails to break the top 4 financial stranglehold, he doesn't have a lot of places to go except down. And I cant see Klopp single-handedly changing the reality of Liverpool's situation as a top 8 side given the money flowing into the EPL.

So you think the liverpool squad is relegation material

niallo27 · 09-10-2015 10:40pm

Sand wrote: »

I think Moyes would have been less gif worthy, but he has a proven ability to build up a squad from relegation material to top 6 material in the EPL. Klopp certainly has a skillset, but he didn't prove able to deal with a disastrous decline in the Dortmund squad who were better players than Liverpool and more familiar to Klopp than the Liverpool squad were. In the Bundesliga, he only had to deal with Bayern as a genuine CL force. In the EPL, he is dealing with 4 of them.

I truly understand Liverpool fans are over the moon regarding Klopp. And I get nothing I say will be acknowledged. But its a bad move for Klopp because when he likely fails to break the top 4 financial stranglehold, he doesn't have a lot of places to go except down. And I cant see Klopp single-handedly changing the reality of Liverpool's situation as a top 8 side given the money flowing into the EPL.

This is killing you isn't it.

Caovyn Lineah · 09-10-2015 10:40pm

Sand wrote: »

I think Moyes would have been less gif worthy, but he has a proven ability to build up a squad from relegation material to top 6 material in the EPL. Klopp certainly has a skillset, but he didn't prove able to deal with a disastrous decline in the Dortmund squad who were better players than Liverpool and more familiar to Klopp than the Liverpool squad were. In the Bundesliga, he only had to deal with Bayern as a genuine CL force. In the EPL, he is dealing with 4 of them.

I truly understand Liverpool fans are over the moon regarding Klopp. And I get nothing I say will be acknowledged. But its a bad move for Klopp because when he likely fails to break the top 4 financial stranglehold, he doesn't have a lot of places to go except down. And I cant see Klopp single-handedly changing the reality of Liverpool's situation as a top 8 side given the money flowing into the EPL.

A top 8 side?

Do you actually believe the nonsense you post? You do seem to put a lot of thought and effort into it.

redzerdrog · 09-10-2015 10:40pm

Oh ****

Maximus Alexander · 09-10-2015 10:44pm

Sand wrote: »

I truly understand Liverpool fans are over the moon regarding Klopp. And I get nothing I say will be acknowledged. But its a bad move for Klopp because when he likely fails to break the top 4 financial stranglehold, he doesn't have a lot of places to go except down. And I cant see Klopp single-handedly changing the reality of Liverpool's situation as a top 8 side given the money flowing into the EPL.

Ah come on, I get that with the rivalry it's tempting to talk down about Liverpool, but the reality is that with a competent manager they should be finishing 5th with the odd foray into the CL spots. If we accept that Klopp is a competent manager, then that's what we should expect to see - assuming he is not hamstrung in the transfer market.

Describing them as a 'top 8 side' is disingenuous, because football is fueled by money, and they're the 5th wealthiest club in the league. They've been underperforming for the last few seasons, bar the 2nd place obviously.

Iused2likebusts · 09-10-2015 10:51pm

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Ah come on, I get that with the rivalry it's tempting to talk down about Liverpool, but the reality is that with a competent manager they should be finishing 5th with the odd foray into the CL spots. If we accept that Klopp is a competent manager, then that's what we should expect to see - assuming he is not hamstrung in the transfer market.

Describing them as a 'top 8 side' is disingenuous, because football is fueled by money, and they're the 5th wealthiest club in the league. They've been underperforming for the last few seasons, bar the 2nd place obviously.

Spot on. Of course there is a chance of top 4. Obviously you would fancy the other 4 to finish ahead but things dont always work out like that.

breffni bogballer · 09-10-2015 11:00pm

By the standard of the PL this season so far,4th spot is definetlly gettable. no one is going to run away in 1,2,3 and no reason why LFC wont be in the hunt

Sand · 09-10-2015 11:04pm

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Ah come on, I get that with the rivalry it's tempting to talk down about Liverpool, but the reality is that with a competent manager they should be finishing 5th with the odd foray into the CL spots. If we accept that Klopp is a competent manager, then that's what we should expect to see - assuming he is not hamstrung in the transfer market.

Describing them as a 'top 8 side' is disingenuous, because football is fueled by money, and they're the 5th wealthiest club in the league. They've been underperforming for the last few seasons, bar the 2nd place obviously.

Look, I get with the rivalry its tempting to talk up Liverpool but here are their league table finishes since 2010

2009/10 - 7th
2010/11 - 6th
2011/12 - 8th
2012/13 - 7th
2013/14 - 2nd
2014/15 - 6th
2015/16 - 10th (current)

That is the record of a top 8 side. I don't stick the boot in, but neither do I indulge in fantasy or patronising them. Klopp is the 5th manager Liverpool will have had in that time period, and under the second set of owners. The problems go deeper than just changing the brass plate on the front of the operation.

niallo27 · 09-10-2015 11:05pm

Sand wrote: »

Look, I get with the rivalry its tempting to talk up Liverpool but here are their league table finishes since 2010

2009/10 - 7th
2010/11 - 6th
2011/12 - 8th
2012/13 - 7th
2013/14 - 2nd
2014/15 - 6th
2015/16 - 10th (current)

That is the record of a top 8 side. I don't stick the boot in, but neither do I indulge in fantasy or patronising them. Klopp is the 5th manager Liverpool will have had in that time period, and under the second set of owners. The problems go deeper than just changing the brass plate on the front of the operation.

By that logic Chelsea Arsenal and Utd are Top 8 clubs too.

Maximus Alexander · 09-10-2015 11:07pm

Sand wrote: »

Look, I get with the rivalry its tempting to talk up Liverpool but here are their league table finishes since 2010

2009/10 - 7th
2010/11 - 6th
2011/12 - 8th
2012/13 - 7th
2013/14 - 2nd
2014/15 - 6th
2015/16 - 10th (current)

That is the record of a top 8 side. I don't stick the boot in, but neither do I indulge in fantasy or patronising them. Klopp is the 5th manager Liverpool will have had in that time period, and under the second set of owners. The problems go deeper than just changing the brass plate on the front of the operation.

Their average finish during the years you listed was 6th, and they only finished 8th once

On what basis are they top 8 then? Because if the metric is "pick the lowest finish in the last six seasons" then United are a top 7 side.

Sand · 09-10-2015 11:11pm

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Their average finish during the years you listed was 6th, and they only finished 8th once On what basis are they top 8 then? Because if the metric is "pick the lowest finish in the last six seasons" then United are a top 7 side.

The metric is pick the minimum finish the club can comfortably expect. Liverpool can comfortably expect to finish inside the top 8 based on relative strength to other sides as demonstrated by past results.

Being a top 4 side on the other hand means a club that can comfortably expect to finish inside the top 4. They might finish 2nd or they might finish 4th, or they might win the league but it would be bizarre if they finished outside the top 4. The example of United finishing in 7th proved the rule - it was so bizarre that people actually started feeling sorry for United.

Iused2likebusts · 09-10-2015 11:13pm

Sand wrote: »

Look, I get with the rivalry its tempting to talk up Liverpool but here are their league table finishes since 2010

2009/10 - 7th
2010/11 - 6th
2011/12 - 8th
2012/13 - 7th
2013/14 - 2nd
2014/15 - 6th
2015/16 - 10th (current)

That is the record of a top 8 side. I don't stick the boot in, but neither do I indulge in fantasy or patronising them. Klopp is the 5th manager Liverpool will have had in that time period, and under the second set of owners. The problems go deeper than just changing the brass plate on the front of the operation.

By that logic utd are a top 7 team since Fergie stepped down, which of course is ridiculous.

Sand · 09-10-2015 11:19pm

niallo27 wrote: »

But if you think the likes of West Ham, Southampton and palace can challenge liverpool and overtake them despite nothing in the last few seasons backing this up then surely by your same logic liverpool should be able to overtake one of the top 4.

Well, that's the difference between acknowledging the past/present and predicting the future. Acknowledging that Liverpool is a top 8 side is a matter of looking at their performance over the last 5-6 seasons. The question of who is going to overtake them (or if) is harder.

The reality is all the northern English clubs are at a disadvantage vs. clubs in London when it comes to attracting players. Man United and City have some pull with Liverpool are a distant third in terms of attractiveness given the persistent lack of CL football.

When you look south I see Southampton and West Ham and Spurs all close to or in London. Southampton have a very good side, with a good manager. West Ham have a great new stadium, in London and with some exciting players who have already given a lesson to Liverpool. Spurs are Spurs, but they are in London. You want to talk about the past, sure Liverpool are a big club. You want to talk about the future...all of those small London clubs would give Liverpool a game and they will only get stronger as more money flows into the EPL.

Sand · 09-10-2015 11:20pm

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

By that logic utd are a top 7 team since Fergie stepped down, which of course is ridiculous.

If it is of course ridiculous, it is a fairly good clue you have missed the actual point and are just throwing up a strawman. Which you did, and have.

Bobeagleburger · 09-10-2015 11:23pm

Iused2likebusts · 09-10-2015 11:40pm

Sand wrote: »

If it is of course ridiculous, it is a fairly good clue you have missed the actual point and are just throwing up a strawman. Which you did, and have.

Well not really I just picked a moment in time to suit a ridiculous argument I could make same way you did with starting from 09/10 . Why not go back another couple of years or start from a later date. 09/10 coincided with the American owners which set the club back a few years which I'm sure you know. Your just looking to get a rise and you got it.

StringerBell · 09-10-2015 11:53pm

Id say Liverpool are a solid top 6 club really, it is unusual if they finish below that mark and somewhat unusual if they break the top 4. I normally expect them to finish 5th or 6th, if they finish 7th or below I'm pleasantly surprised. That is how I would assess them, a top 8 club is a bit harsh alright, you would never expect them to be outside the European places I don't think.

With time, money and a bit of luck I have no doubt Klopp can get them challenging consistently for a top 4 spot with a title challenge thrown in for good measure, not every season but certainly capable now and then, naturally I hope he crashes and burns in a haze of glorious flames though of course.

Sand · 09-10-2015 11:59pm

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Well not really I just picked a moment in time to suit a ridiculous argument I could make same way you did with starting from 09/10 . Why not go back another couple of years or start from a later date. 09/10 coincided with the American owners which set the club back a few years which I'm sure you know. Your just looking to get a rise and you got it.

I'm just looking at the reality of the last 5-6 seasons. Liverpool's league finishes aren't a matter of my opinion or "looking to get a rise". They are what they are.

Honestly, Liverpool fans get mocked for the "our year" mentality, combined selections and always only being 2 or 3 signings from winning the league over the last 25 years. Enough Liverpool fans are realistic and sensible enough about that stuff to make it feel silly to slag them about it. But a new manager gets appointed and suddenly Liverpool fans get excited when a non Liverpool fan doesn't buy into the "our year" mentality. Desperately insecure.

Sand · 10-10-2015 12:05am

StringerBell wrote: »

Id say Liverpool are a solid top 6 club really, it is unusual if they finish below that mark and somewhat unusual if they break the top 4. I normally expect them to finish 5th or 6th, if they finish 7th or below I'm pleasantly surprised. That is how I would assess them, a top 8 club is a bit harsh alright, you would never expect them to be outside the European places I don't think.

With time, money and a bit of luck I have no doubt Klopp can get them challenging consistently for a top 4 spot with a title challenge thrown in for good measure, not every season but certainly capable now and then, naturally I hope he crashes and burns in a haze of glorious flames though of course.

Discounting their current position, in the last six seasons, they have finished 6th twice and 2nd once in a "miracle" season. The other three seasons they have finished 7th-8th. I wouldn't describe that as a solid top 6 club, when they have finished outside it half the time, finished on the minimum line a third and got second only once.

niallo27 · 10-10-2015 12:13am

Sand wrote: »

I'm just looking at the reality of the last 5-6 seasons. Liverpool's league finishes aren't a matter of my opinion or "looking to get a rise". They are what they are.

Honestly, Liverpool fans get mocked for the "our year" mentality, combined selections and always only being 2 or 3 signings from winning the league over the last 25 years. Enough Liverpool fans are realistic and sensible enough about that stuff to make it feel silly to slag them about it. But a new manager gets appointed and suddenly Liverpool fans get excited when a non Liverpool fan doesn't buy into the "our year" mentality. Desperately insecure.

Who said anything about our year. You are just making stuff up now. Ferguson had a team winning leagues. A change of manager they come 7th and 4th. See what difference a manager can make.

Sand · 10-10-2015 12:39am

niallo27 wrote: »

Who said anything about our year. You are just making stuff up now. Ferguson had a team winning leagues. A change of manager they come 7th and 4th. See what difference a manager can make.

Ferguson is such a outlier in terms of managers that I've seen on the United thread people criticising benchmarking managers against him as being unfair.

The "our year" stuff - there is a thread started to apparently genuinely ask if Liverpool can finish top 4 under Klopp this season, from a position of 10th. In defence of this proposition its noted that Liverpool have the 5th biggest wage bill. Managers can make a difference, sure - but is Klopp clearly better than Wenger, LVG, Pellagrini and Mourinho that he can not only return Liverpool to the 5th place that implies but break into the top 4? If some side currently outside the top 4 is going to break into the top 4 I have more faith in the side with more money (Chelsea) and the better manager (Chelsea). When you point out that Liverpool are a top 8 side based on the last 5-6 seasons, people get enraged.

So yeah, everyone is calm enough that is is not "our year" until non Liverpool fans mention it is probably not "our year" and Liverpool fans get excited. You guys decide, is it or isn't it?

nice_guy80 · 10-10-2015 12:40am

Muahahaha · 10-10-2015 12:40am

I reckon Liverpool can finish in the top 4 if Klopps impact is immediate. So far he seems to have his head screwed on about what is required but as he said himself it will take time. Nonetheless I think behind the scenes he will be making the players believe a top 4 place is achievable if they work hard and play his way.

A lot of posters seem to think that Chelsea might be the fall guys but I just can't see it, yet anyway. Mourinho is only 2 or 3 more bad games away from the sack and if that happens I reckon Ancelotti will be persuaded to return on better terms than ever and he'll get them into 4th. Provided he is in place soon enough though but I've no doubt Abramovich will wield the axe if necessary. CL football is Romans main aim and you can't impress other oligarchs if you're not in the CL.

If there is to be any team to drop out of the top 4 I reckon it will be ManU. It's more of a gut instinct than anything but I still get the feeling that LvG hasn't adapted properly to the PL and he should have by now. I'm not seeing his famed tactical genius in the PL since he arrived and think that when ManU have an inevitable blip this season it may not be LvG to get them out of it. Perhaps the players will step up but there's a lack of leaders in the squad and I just think if they do go on a poor run of form they won't get out of it quick enough. LvG under pressure is also some sight, he is the type of manager who has the ability to make things worse amongst his squad when the chips are down.

StringerBell · 10-10-2015 12:43am

Sand wrote: »

Discounting their current position, in the last six seasons, they have finished 6th twice and 2nd once in a "miracle" season. The other three seasons they have finished 7th-8th. I wouldn't describe that as a solid top 6 club, when they have finished outside it half the time, finished on the minimum line a third and got second only once.

Hasn't it already been said that the average has been 6th place?

3 times they have finished top 6, once making a foray into the top 4, 3 times they have been outside the top 6, two of those times they were 7th, I don't think its unreasonable to suggest they are a solid top 6 side, the seasons they finished 7th or 8th were poor years, the 2nd was an incredible year.

It all boils down to this, when you are looking at the teams at the beginning of the season, I generally think Liverpool will end up in 5th or 6th place, so imo they are a solid top 6 team. I think its harsh to say they are only a top 8 team but I'm not going to argue with you about it all night or anything.

Sand · 10-10-2015 12:49am

StringerBell wrote: »

Hasn't it already been said that the average has been 6th place?

3 times they have finished top 6, once making a foray into the top 4, 3 times they have been outside the top 6, two of those times they were 7th, I don't think its unreasonable to suggest they are a solid top 6 side, the seasons they finished 7th or 8th were poor years, the 2nd was an incredible year.

It all boils down to this, when you are looking at the teams at the beginning of the season, I generally think Liverpool will end up in 5th or 6th place, so imo they are a solid top 6 team. I think its harsh to say they are only a top 8 team but I'm not going to argue with you about it all night or anything.

TBH, if you class top 6 sides as being teams who have sometimes finished 6th over the past 5-6 seasons you will end up with 8 or 9 "top 6" sides.

garra · 10-10-2015 12:54am

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I certainly hope it will go well.
What with Jose getting the 3 year itch, its certainly achievable.

I've a niggling feeling that Klopp won't see out his term though..
He's an emotional manager & while its all affable & charming when things are going well, he can turn sour, very fast when things aren't.

Was a 1-club player, and then manager of that club. Stayed with Dortmund for twice as long as the current 2nd longest-serving PL manager. So ommm, that's just like your opinion man,

~Rebel~ · 10-10-2015 12:56am

I think this thread is probably done...

StringerBell · 10-10-2015 12:56am

Sand wrote: »

TBH, if you class top 6 sides as being teams who have sometimes finished 6th over the past 5-6 seasons you will end up with 8 or 9 "top 6" sides.

They have finished in the top 6 the last 2 seasons in a row, and 7th the one before that. I think 3 seasons is a fair period to judge where a squad is currently at tbh.

NukaCola · 10-10-2015 1:06am

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I've a niggling feeling that Klopp won't see out his term though..
He's an emotional manager & while its all affable & charming when things are going well, he can turn sour, very fast when things aren't.

Based on what?

StringerBell · 10-10-2015 1:09am

Klopp has a well known temper, its no secret. Not sure why he thinks he won't see out the 3 years though, maybe unless one of the top jobs becomes available and he has Liverpool going well but I doubt he is going to be a disaster and Liverpool don't exactly just sack managers willy nilly, Hodgson being the exception to the rule obv

Maximus Alexander · 10-10-2015 1:11am

Sand wrote: »

TBH, if you class top 6 sides as being teams who have sometimes finished 6th over the past 5-6 seasons you will end up with 8 or 9 "top 6" sides.

But nobody classed it like that, nor ever would. If, however, you deal in actual numbers and stuff, you'd produce a table like this:

And hey presto, you can see pretty clearly who has made up the top four over the last 6 seasons: the four teams who on average finish in the top four. And who makes up the top six: the six teams who on average finish there. You can also see pretty clearly that there's no such thing as a 'top 8', because there is no team apart from the seven above that finishes, on average, 8th or above.

So, Liverpool are top six. And it's pretty reasonable to argue that, given their finances, they've underperformed. With competent management, they would knock Spurs down a peg and cement top 5.

Iused2likebusts · 10-10-2015 7:45am

Sand wrote: »

Ferguson is such a outlier in terms of managers that I've seen on the United thread people criticising benchmarking managers against him as being unfair.

The "our year" stuff - there is a thread started to apparently genuinely ask if Liverpool can finish top 4 under Klopp this season, from a position of 10th. In defence of this proposition its noted that Liverpool have the 5th biggest wage bill. Managers can make a difference, sure - but is Klopp clearly better than Wenger, LVG, Pellagrini and Mourinho that he can not only return Liverpool to the 5th place that implies but break into the top 4? If some side currently outside the top 4 is going to break into the top 4 I have more faith in the side with more money (Chelsea) and the better manager (Chelsea). When you point out that Liverpool are a top 8 side based on the last 5-6 seasons, people get enragred
So yeah, everyone is calm enough that is is not "our year" until non Liverpool fans mention it is probably not "our year" and Liverpool fans get excited. You guys decide, is it or isn't it?

You are putting a lot of scope on Liverpool currently being 10th. The season has only started I wouldn't be paying a huge amount of attention to the league table yet. One result one way or the other causes big jumps in league positions at this early stage.

Mr.H · 10-10-2015 8:49am

Anyone who actually believes that Klopp can not get Liverpool into teh top 4 this season is more hoping they dont rather than actually believing they cant

Liverpool sit 10th right now BUT 3 points off 4th. In fact they are only 6 off 1st..................... SO in fact they can even win the league............... I am not saying they will win the league nor do I expect them to. But it would be complete boll1x if I said they cant!! As long as they mathematically CAN then there is no way that you can say they cant............ Its called logic and that trumps hate.

Above Liverpool right now are:
9- Southampton (0pts) (GD +5)
8- Spurs (1pt) (GD +6)
7- Everton (1pt) (GD +6)
6- West Ham (2pts) (GD +8)
5- Leicester (3pts) (GD +4)
4- Palace (3pts) (GD +6)
3- United (4pts) (GD +6)
2- Arsenal (4pts) (GD +8)
1- City (6pts) (GD +14)

Next round of games (only including teams above Liverpool right now)
Spurs v Liverpool (if Lpool win)
Palace v West Ham (if draw)
Everton v United (if draw)
City v Bournemouth (if City Win)
Southampton v Leicester (if Soton win)
Watford v Arsenal (if Arsenal win)

1- City 21
2- Arsenal 19
3- United 17
4- Palace 16
5- Leicester 15
6- West Ham 15
7- Southampton 15
8- Liverpool 15
9- Everton 14
10- Spurs 13

Next thing you know Liverpool are 1 point off 4th................................. and those are realistic (that can actually happen) results. Not even a "good luck weekend"

Ruling Liverpool out is foolish. But then so is ruling Chelsea out of top 4 this early in the season

30 games to go. 90 points to play for!!

K-9 · 10-10-2015 8:58am

Sand wrote: »

The metric is pick the minimum finish the club can comfortably expect. Liverpool can comfortably expect to finish inside the top 8 based on relative strength to other sides as demonstrated by past results.

Being a top 4 side on the other hand means a club that can comfortably expect to finish inside the top 4. They might finish 2nd or they might finish 4th, or they might win the league but it would be bizarre if they finished outside the top 4. The example of United finishing in 7th proved the rule - it was so bizarre that people actually started feeling sorry for United.

Cherry picking stats. They finished 2nd and 6th in the last 2 seasons. They are a top 6 side and the reason Klopp is taking over is because he and many believe 6th and their general performances the last year are under achieving.

If you really were being serious you'd average other teams finishes in those years and we'd still be sixth as Southampton and Everton haven't consistently performed in the top 6 in that time either.

redzerdrog · 10-10-2015 9:05am

Who cares is someone plonker wants to call Liverpool a top 8 side just leave them at it and bare in mind views such as Moyes being the best man for the job it is an easy conclusion to come to that their opinions should just be dismissed

Mr Alan · 10-10-2015 9:07am

What people engaging with Sand?

Waste of energy

FutureGuy · 10-10-2015 9:18am

Theoretically yes but it's a tough ask. Firstly, Chelsea will need to continue to falter. He will also need to invest heavily in January to suit his high tempo style. Finally he needs to keep Sturridge fit. He will turn losses and draws into wins.

I'd say 5th or 6th would be a solid start. Next year would be more realistic and I'd say it may even be a case of challenging for 2nd or 3rd.

Great man to lead ye. Bastards :-D

K-9 · 10-10-2015 9:21am

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

You are putting a lot of scope on Liverpool currently being 10th. The season has only started I wouldn't be paying a huge amount of attention to the league table yet. One result one way or the other causes big jumps in league positions at this early stage.

Well this is it, City lost their last 2 games and now have injuries to deal with, Chelsea are a mess and many United fans aren't happy with performances. It isn't as if we're talking 15 point gaps or something.

We've Spurs, City and Chelsea away to come shortly. We'll have played all the top 6 away from home then and Everton. If Klopp can sort out the home form and get 3 or 4 points from those away games Liverpool could be in a nice position come the New Year.

Then it comes down to what tactics he'll play at home to the top 6 teams and how successful he is.

Attacking options are pretty decent in Sturridge, Benteke, Coutinho, Henderson, Milner, Firmino, Lalana, Origi, Ings and Ibe. Some of those will suit his style more than others but Rodgers at his best had those players pressing high so it isn't as if it will be alien to them, others have played that type of game for former clubs. There's squad options there as well for Europa Cup and when players tire as they will under his system.

The defence will play a big part. Funnily enough I think Mignolet has loads of clean sheets, about as many as Hart this year, yet we're crap defensively. That shows big problems when we concede as we tend to let in 2 or 3 when we do. Sort that out and there's enough goals in the team to pick up points in games we've lost or drawn the last year.

Sand · 10-10-2015 9:38am

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

But nobody classed it like that, nor ever would. If, however, you deal in actual numbers and stuff, you'd produce a table like this:

And hey presto, you can see pretty clearly who has made up the top four over the last 6 seasons: the four teams who on average finish in the top four. And who makes up the top six: the six teams who on average finish there. You can also see pretty clearly that there's no such thing as a 'top 8', because there is no team apart from the seven above that finishes, on average, 8th or above.

So, Liverpool are top six. And it's pretty reasonable to argue that, given their finances, they've underperformed. With competent management, they would knock Spurs down a peg and cement top 5.

If you want to call Liverpool a top 6 side that's fine. Over the past 6 seasons, you would be incorrectly describing their finishing position half the time, but okay.

And the money link - yes, Liverpool ought to be doing better. But by the same argument, so should Sunderland, Aston Villa and Newcastle - the 12th, 9th and 7th biggest clubs by turnover in the EPL who finished 16th, 17th and 15th last season respectively and are on course to repeat that performance if they are lucky.

There is a link between money and success, but only from a really high level. There is too many other factors and Liverpool's major challenge is they want players with the quality to consistently deliver CL football, but they cant offer CL football and while they have money they don't have enough to break through that barrier like City did.

Klopp came from Dortmund. He could offer consistent CL football to a high level, regular title challenges and the money wouldn't be bad either. Liverpool can offer more money to a limited extent, and that's it. That's the challenge Liverpool face and I don't think changing the manager is suddenly going to alter that reality. There are only 4 CL spots in the PL, and there are four teams who are financially bigger, who have better squads and who have at least as good managers.

I don't think its unreasonable to say, no Klopp probably cant get Liverpool into the Top 4 this season. And I think Klopp is going to face the same problems Rodgers faced in attracting players.

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

You are putting a lot of scope on Liverpool currently being 10th. The season has only started I wouldn't be paying a huge amount of attention to the league table yet. One result one way or the other causes big jumps in league positions at this early stage.

I'm not actually putting much sway on the current positions at all. Chelsea is down in 16th, 4 points behind Liverpool after a terrible run of form. But they have an excellent, proven manager and better players and the terrible form has to end sometime. Out of Liverpool and Chelsea, I think its more reasonable to presume Chelsea is more likely to get into the top 4 this season as they have consistently done over past seasons.

StringerBell wrote: »

They have finished in the top 6 the last 2 seasons in a row, and 7th the one before that. I think 3 seasons is a fair period to judge where a squad is currently at tbh.

If we are talking about where their squad is currently at, they have lost players like Suarez, Sterling and Gerrard who drove them to those positions and they haven't adequately replaced them and their squad is performing worse.

I mean, that is primarily why Rodgers was sacked, right?

K-9 · 10-10-2015 9:45am

Should have waited a few weeks and got Moyes, he'll be free then, if not by choice like Klopp.

Caovyn Lineah · 10-10-2015 9:47am

K-9 wrote: »

Should have waited a few weeks and got Moyes, he'll be free then, if not by choice like Klopp.

He would definitely have consolidated our position in the top 8. He certainly has history of turning clubs into top 8 clubs.

K-9 · 10-10-2015 9:49am

Caovyn Lineah wrote: »

He would definitely have consolidated our position in the top 8. He certainly has history of turning clubs into top 8 clubs.

Fhact.

Sand · 10-10-2015 9:55am

K-9 wrote: »

Should have waited a few weeks and got Moyes, he'll be free then, if not by choice like Klopp.

Congrats on getting Klopp, I am surprised he went to Liverpool. I think its a bad move for him when you consider he could have waited a few more months and gone to Real, or Chelsea, or City or even Bayern where he would have a better opportunity to succeed. But I perfectly understand why Liverpool fans are excited.

Caovyn Lineah · 10-10-2015 9:56am

Sand wrote: »

Congrats on getting Klopp, I am surprised he went to Liverpool. I think its a bad move for him when you consider he could have waited a few more months and gone to Real, or Chelsea, or City or even Bayern where he would have a better opportunity to succeed. But I perfectly understand why Liverpool fans are excited.

And why some United fans are being incredibly bitter. It's gone beyond embarrassing.

5starpool · 10-10-2015 10:08am

Mr Alan wrote: »

What people engaging with Sand?

Waste of energy

Probably still confused how Moyes didn't get offered the job.

Can Klopp get Liverpool into the Top 4 this season

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