Jose Mourinho

grumpymunster · 07-10-2015 6:50pm

TheDoc wrote: »

Mourinho is an odd manager to sometimes critique because people put his achievements down and seemingly that ends the debate. Mourinho is clearly a very good manager but the way he operates should be of no real surprise to anyone. I didn't buy into any of the nonsense on his return that things would be different.

I've always had question marks about him being able to oversee a club for an extended period of success and competitiveness, and query his coaching ability. Can he plan and structure and manage a club properly, when it gets passed buying in finished products? Can he properly manage a squad fully, and not just a first 11-13? Can he actually coach, do players become better under him, or are they already the finished product, or about to peak regardless of him?

Looking back through his previous clubs, I struggle to pinpoint youthful players he has coached, promoted and utilised as part of a first team plan. His integration of young players seems non existent. I think players simply get burnt out with the intense defensive projection he constantly omits and demands. Everything is the siege mentality, and built around the siege mentality, and that must be taxing on any of his players.

Mourinho has always appeared to me to be in the sort of categories I'd put Klopp and Simeone. That sort of motivator coach style. It's intense, it builds tight bonds and relationships, but after a few years, it starts to wear off, and it's nearly irreversible once it starts slipping.

His character and comments are really just dramatics and nonsense for the cameras. I'm sure he doesn't really believe it, just like how anyone with half a brain knows its rarely the truth. This infamous deflection tactic as someone else mentioned, is not the case. You can be pretty sure that when a few million people watch a televised game, they are going to know what happened, and no deflection tactics are going to change that. It only makes the manager and by association the club, more detested and disliked by rival fans and even neutrals.

I know when he came up in the United megathread as a potential replacement to Ferguson I was very nervy about the situation and not sure it was the right fit or thing to do.

As much as you can hate or love him as a character, as a manager he has astronomical success, but still has some areas that question marks hang over. I felt Chelsea would struggle to retain the title this season due to the poor investment and not keeping things fresh. Felt Chelsea got away with MURDER last season being so lucky with injuries and how no one around them could mount a meaningful challenege. I would never have imagined Chelsea being THIS bad but at the same time I'm not overly surprised either.

The Mourinho effect wears off fast on squads and players and doesn't last for long. The only way it was changing is if he changed, and after a little six month goodwill tour on the cameras when he came back, he started to slip into the same old Jose.

Fair dunkums that is one of the best posts I have read regarding Jose and I would have to say I agree with pretty much all of it.

The doc refers to Tommy Doc at all? Now there was a flawed genius as well

07-10-2015 6:57pm

Great manager, but totally classless.

Poking someone in the eye, his constant slagging of Wenger and Benitez before that, the doctor episode etc etc

He's become so predictable.

MD1990 · 07-10-2015 7:02pm

TheDoc wrote: »

Mourinho is an odd manager to sometimes critique because people put his achievements down and seemingly that ends the debate. Mourinho is clearly a very good manager but the way he operates should be of no real surprise to anyone. I didn't buy into any of the nonsense on his return that things would be different.

I've always had question marks about him being able to oversee a club for an extended period of success and competitiveness, and query his coaching ability. Can he plan and structure and manage a club properly, when it gets passed buying in finished products? Can he properly manage a squad fully, and not just a first 11-13? Can he actually coach, do players become better under him, or are they already the finished product, or about to peak regardless of him?

Looking back through his previous clubs, I struggle to pinpoint youthful players he has coached, promoted and utilised as part of a first team plan. His integration of young players seems non existent. I think players simply get burnt out with the intense defensive projection he constantly omits and demands. Everything is the siege mentality, and built around the siege mentality, and that must be taxing on any of his players.

Mourinho has always appeared to me to be in the sort of categories I'd put Klopp and Simeone. That sort of motivator coach style. It's intense, it builds tight bonds and relationships, but after a few years, it starts to wear off, and it's nearly irreversible once it starts slipping.

His character and comments are really just dramatics and nonsense for the cameras. I'm sure he doesn't really believe it, just like how anyone with half a brain knows its rarely the truth. This infamous deflection tactic as someone else mentioned, is not the case. You can be pretty sure that when a few million people watch a televised game, they are going to know what happened, and no deflection tactics are going to change that. It only makes the manager and by association the club, more detested and disliked by rival fans and even neutrals.

I know when he came up in the United megathread as a potential replacement to Ferguson I was very nervy about the situation and not sure it was the right fit or thing to do.

As much as you can hate or love him as a character, as a manager he has astronomical success, but still has some areas that question marks hang over. I felt Chelsea would struggle to retain the title this season due to the poor investment and not keeping things fresh. Felt Chelsea got away with MURDER last season being so lucky with injuries and how no one around them could mount a meaningful challenege. I would never have imagined Chelsea being THIS bad but at the same time I'm not overly surprised either.

The Mourinho effect wears off fast on squads and players and doesn't last for long. The only way it was changing is if he changed, and after a little six month goodwill tour on the cameras when he came back, he started to slip into the same old Jose.

Klopp has manged only 2 clubs Mainz & Dortmund both for 7 years. Simeone is at Atletico 4 years as well.

adox · 07-10-2015 7:07pm

He's become a parody of himself at this stage.

I think there is plenty wrong at Chelsea under him this season and particularly after that bizzare post match interview at the weekend, that the wheels are already in motion at the club for his exit.

Yes it's based on nothing but my very outside opinion but I can't see it going any other way than continuing southwards with the inevitable conclusion.

grumpymunster · 07-10-2015 7:16pm

rarnes1 wrote: »

Great manager, but totally classless.

Poking someone in the eye, his constant slagging of Wenger and Benitez before that, the doctor episode etc etc

He's become so predictable.

How do you define class?

What exactly is classless?

CSF · 07-10-2015 7:17pm

gosplan wrote: »

I'm not saying either was acceptable.

But Wenger was correct. He'll get leeway because he doesn't openly challenge the FA at every available opportunity.

Jose is permanently on the attack so the FA are in a state of war when it comes to Chelsea and it's all down to Jose.

Most of the times Mourinho criticises the referee he is correct also. Like every other manager who does so, he has also done it when it wasn't justified, and really the most important thing here, is none of them should be doing it at all. They're as bad as each other here. Mourinho just prints headlines through his word because of the larger than life character he has become.

But the problem with managers publicly criticising referees is an all too general one, and for me this is why it is a bad thing that Wenger was allowed publicly criticise a referee without punishment and Gabriel was allowed retaliate on the pitch and have his ban rescinded.

It kind of emphasised that you're allowed completely blatantly break the rules if you can claim the moral highground, but if you're the ogre that is Mourinho or Costa, you need to be punished, because you definitely do not have the moral highground.

Like I said previously, I think there are plenty of valid sticks to beat Mourinho with, but I think all too often we don't apply consistency when doing so.

CSF · 07-10-2015 7:19pm

Arghus wrote: »

I'm not beating Mourinho with the sexist-stick here. I do think that the furore the surrounded the treatment of a female member of staff- while the media completely ignored the role and fate of the male medic- was pretty rank hypocrisy on the medias part. Though I do think there was an implication of sexism in the way he explained himself to the press, I wouldn't crucify over that particular incident.

I brought the incident of Benitez's wife up, not because it struck me as an example of sexism on Mourinho's part, but as an example of how petty he is. Why should he care about a joke she made? Who is she to him after all? The appropriate thing would have been to say nothing. But no score is too little to settle for Jose. So he gave it back to her: with interest. I think his comments were nasty and totally unneessary, and made him look terrible. And that's him to a tee. He might be sinned against, but he always goes that extra mile to get the boot in, regardless of gender.

My point is, I don't think we'd be conversing about it had it been Benitez's brother. You're entitled to claim otherwise and it'd be stupid for both of us to spend ages doing a 'yes we would' 'no we wouldn't' thing. But that is my standpoint and I don't think I could be considered otherwise.

07-10-2015 7:21pm

grumpymunster wrote: »

How do you define class?

What exactly is classless?

Eye gouging an opponent. Hardly something a regular person does to an opponent

Class is probably the wrong word. The correct word is a lot stronger but probably isn't allowed

bad2dabone · 07-10-2015 7:23pm

grumpymunster wrote: »

How do you define class?

What exactly is classless?

Class could be defined as showing excellence and style in one's behaviour.

Mourinho can be described as lacking in class when he engages in questionable behavior. Which is often.

duffman13 · 07-10-2015 7:24pm

MD1990 wrote: »

Klopp has manged only 2 clubs Mainz & Dortmund both for 7 years. Simeone is at Atletico 4 years as well.

I don't want to derail the thread because it's about Mourinho but the Klopp point is valid in the style of coaching/motivating. Klopp has been succesful at both clubs but towards the end of both clubs performances dropped sharply. It'll be interesting with Simeone what happens with him.

I rate Klopp very highly and I'm sure most Liverpool fans would be delighted if he had an identical performance trend with Liverpool as he had with Dortmund.

07-10-2015 7:27pm

duffman13 wrote: »

I don't want to derail the thread because it's about Mourinho but the Klopp point is valid in the style of coaching/motivating. Klopp has been succesful at both clubs but towards the end of both clubs performances dropped sharply.

Isnt this quite common across the managerial spectrum?

gosplan · 07-10-2015 7:29pm

CSF wrote: »

Most of the times Mourinho criticises the referee he is correct also. Like every other manager who does so, he has also done it when it wasn't justified, and really the most important thing here, is none of them should be doing it at all. They're as bad as each other here. Mourinho just prints headlines through his word because of the larger than life character he has become.

But the problem with managers publicly criticising referees is an all too general one, and for me this is why it is a bad thing that Wenger was allowed publicly criticise a referee without punishment and Gabriel was allowed retaliate on the pitch and have his ban rescinded.

It kind of emphasised that you're allowed completely blatantly break the rules if you can claim the moral highground, but if you're the ogre that is Mourinho or Costa, you need to be punished, because you definitely do not have the moral highground.

Like I said previously, I think there are plenty of valid sticks to beat Mourinho with, but I think all too often we don't apply consistency when doing so.

No, just no.

Mourinho has waged a personal war for over a year. It's all a conspiracy etc etc. last draw, I think it was about the ref. Loss to Southampton, it's about the ref.

No other manager does that. They are not as bad as each other, he's much much worse.

Whatever he gets he brings on himself.

Rezident · 07-10-2015 7:32pm

We let people away with murder nowadays once they are "successful". He believed the hype. But a lot of it was just hype. I won't remember him for winning stuff, I will remember him for playing the most boring, defensive, ugly football - and all the time while having some of the best squads in the world! What a waste! His teams could have created beautiful football, but he'd rather bore everyone to tears and win one-nil. Now he can't even do that. Good riddance.

Rezident · 07-10-2015 7:34pm

Oh and every single one of his teams - from Porto cheating Celtic out of the UEFA Cup to Drogba and Chelsea now has employed diving and cheating to astonishing levels. Most of his trophies don't really count for me because he was cheating the whole time. Karma MoFo.

monkey9 · 07-10-2015 7:34pm

duffman13 wrote: »

I don't want to derail the thread because it's about Mourinho but the Klopp point is valid in the style of coaching/motivating. Klopp has been succesful at both clubs but towards the end of both clubs performances dropped sharply. It'll be interesting with Simeone what happens with him.

I rate Klopp very highly and I'm sure most Liverpool fans would be delighted if he had an identical performance trend with Liverpool as he had with Dortmund.

As a Liverpool fan, if Klopp has a similar last season at Anfield as he did at Dortmund whilst achieving similar success, i'll be taking that all day long.

Just on Mourinho, what did Chelsea fans make of his post match interview on Saturday? If i was a Chelsea fan, i'd have been annoyed they way he went on about the referee as if he cost Chelsea the match. That's not what i would want to be hearing.

I know he does that a lot and it can be deflection tactics etc. But that's usually when he's going for titles or has a second leg to play. But obviously it's been a poor season so far and if i was a Chelsea fan, i'd have wanted him to just come out and tell the fans what exactly is going on and what he's going to do.

It was all just very obvious and convenient to blame the ref, especially as he ignored Southampton's two legitimate penalty claims.

I'm genuinely just wondering if Chelsea fans were annoyed by it and would they rather him just not mention the ref and focus om the bigger issues. Or did it not bother them one way or another?

duffman13 · 07-10-2015 7:36pm

rarnes1 wrote: »

Isnt this quite common across the managerial spectrum?

Fair point, to some extent you could say it's happened to Wenger but to a less drastic degree. I suppose with Klopp it appears to be boom or bust (much more boom)

It was incredible to see Dortmund almost adrift in February and his last season at Mainz was the same.

eagle eye · 07-10-2015 7:39pm

Rezident wrote: »

We let people away with murder nowadays once they are "successful". He believed the hype. But a lot of it was just hype. I won't remember him for winning stuff, I will remember him for playing the most boring, defensive, ugly football - and all the time while having some of the best squads in the world! What a waste! His teams could have created beautiful football, but he'd rather bore everyone to tears and win one-nil. Now he can't even do that. Good riddance.

Funny how a lot of Arsenal fans are unhappy with Arsene Wenger for playing entertaining football and winning nothing of note for quite a while.

07-10-2015 7:40pm

duffman13 wrote: »

Fair point, to some extent you could say it's happened to Wenger but to a less drastic degree. I suppose with Klopp it appears to be boom or bust (much more boom)

It was incredible to see Dortmund almost adrift in February and his last season at Mainz was the same.

Not too many managers bow out at the top. The majority are sacked after poor results.

Wenger is still in a job as he's been consistent.

07-10-2015 7:42pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Funny how a lot of Arsenal fans are unhappy with Arsene Wenger for playing entertaining football and winning nothing of note for quite a while.

Winning football >>>>> Exciting football

For me anyway.

For the opposite see Spurs fans

CSF · 07-10-2015 7:46pm

gosplan wrote: »

No, just no.

Mourinho has waged a personal war for over a year. It's all a conspiracy etc etc. last draw, I think it was about the ref. Loss to Southampton, it's about the ref.

No other manager does that. They are not as bad as each other, he's much much worse.

Whatever he gets he brings on himself.

Mourinho does it more frequently than other managers. All these managers are equally bad when they do it and shouldn't do it and should stop doing it. Lets not justify Wenger when he does it because he doesn't do it as much as Mourinho. He should have been charged by the FA when he did it and it is hypocricy on the part of the FA that they haven't done so.

monkey9 · 07-10-2015 7:50pm

rarnes1 wrote: »

Winning football >>>>> Exciting football

For me anyway.

For the opposite see Spurs fans

Winning football = Exciting football.

grumpymunster · 07-10-2015 7:50pm

monkey9 wrote: »

As a Liverpool fan, if Klopp has a similar last season at Anfield as he did at Dortmund whilst achieving similar success, i'll be taking that all day long.

Just on Mourinho, what did Chelsea fans make of his post match interview on Saturday? If i was a Chelsea fan, i'd have been annoyed they way he went on about the referee as if he cost Chelsea the match. That's not what i would want to be hearing.

I know he does that a lot and it can be deflection tactics etc. But that's usually when he's going for titles or has a second leg to play. But obviously it's been a poor season so far and if i was a Chelsea fan, i'd have wanted him to just come out and tell the fans what exactly is going on and what he's going to do.

It was all just very obvious and convenient to blame the ref, especially as he ignored Southampton's two legitimate penalty claims.

I'm genuinely just wondering if Chelsea fans were annoyed by it and would they rather him just not mention the ref and focus om the bigger issues. Or did it not bother them one way or another?

You should always pick your fight. Had he made those comments after the Porto game he would have been on solid ground. Against The Saints shall we say the ground was less firm, the ref was poor for sure but he was honestly poor if that makes sense.

That being said it should be the same for all, you are either allowed to be critical of a ref or you are not. Falcao should have had a penalty stick on, that's for sure. If Southampton had lost would Koeman said nothing about the two they should have had. Rules are rules if they are to be applied they should be applied regardless that is clearly not the case though.

MaroonAndGreen · 07-10-2015 7:53pm

rarnes1 wrote:

Wenger is still in a job as he's been consistent.

Consistently not winning the title in recent years... no manager would survive at United, City, Chelsea, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern if they went 11 seasons without a league title or a European Cup.

Wenger still having his job says more about Wenger's superiors attitude and Arsenal's true standing as a club than show that Wenger has been consistently good.

gosplan · 07-10-2015 7:57pm

CSF wrote: »

Mourinho does it more frequently than other managers. All these managers are equally bad when they do it and shouldn't do it and should stop doing it. Lets not justify Wenger when he does it because he doesn't do it as much as Mourinho. He should have been charged by the FA when he did it and it is hypocricy on the part of the FA that they haven't done so.

Grand.

But let's equally not delude ourselves into playing the 'poor Jose get's singled out for nothing' card. They guy goes looking for fights wherever he goes, and surprise surprise, he finds them.

None of this really matters. Jose will win or lose games and that's really what will define his management.

But can we please end this circling the wagons nonsense about how he get's picked on and arguing every decision that goes against him.

He brings all of this on himself. His team stunk the place out, conceded three goals at home in te league for the first time ever under his management, his selection is bordering on bizzare ... and he fails to mention the opposition and rants about the ref.

And if any other manager carried in the way he does, they'd get the same treatment ... but they don't.

07-10-2015 8:00pm

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Consistently not winning the title in recent years... no manager would survive at United, City, Chelsea, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern if they went 11 seasons without a league title or a European Cup.

Wenger still having his job says more about Wenger's superiors attitude and Arsenal's true standing as a club than show that Wenger has been consistently good.

Consistently finishing in the champions league spots which keeps the money men happy. All while spending little. He's an owners dream manager tbh.

cadaliac · 07-10-2015 8:03pm

gosplan wrote: »

Grand.

But let's equally not delude ourselves into playing the 'poor Jose get's singled out for nothing' card. They guy goes looking for fights wherever he goes, and surprise surprise, he finds them.

None of this really matters. Jose will win or lose games and that's really what will define his management.

But can we please end this circling the wagons nonsense about how he get's picked on and arguing every decision that goes against him.

He brings all of this on himself. His team stunk the place out, conceded three goals at home in te league for the first time ever under his management, his selection is bordering on bizzare ... and he fails to mention the opposition and rants about the ref.

And if any other manager carried in the way he does, they'd get the same treatment ... but they don't.

Ferguson didn't even speak to the bbc iirc

monkey9 · 07-10-2015 8:03pm

grumpymunster wrote: »

You should always pick your fight. Had he made those comments after the Porto game he would have been on solid ground. Against The Saints shall we say the ground was less firm, the ref was poor for sure but he was honestly poor if that makes sense.

That being said it should be the same for all, you are either allowed to be critical of a ref or you are not. Falcao should have had a penalty stick on, that's for sure. If Southampton had lost would Koeman said nothing about the two they should have had. Rules are rules if they are to be applied they should be applied regardless that is clearly not the case though.

Yeah, saying the ref was afraid to award the penalty was nonsense. It was just a case of the ref believing Falcao dived and i can see why he thought that.

But were you annoyed by what Mourinho was saying and focusing on. This is genuinely not a dig at him (and i do like an oul dig at Mourinho), but i was watching the interview thinking 'will you just shut up about the ref. You have bigger issues at the moment'.

If i was a Chelsea fan after that defeat, i'd just want him to be serious and say that that wasn't good enough. That Southampton deserved it and we need to look at ourselves etc.

Focusing on the ref was just a cop out. If i was a Chelsea fan after that defeat, i just wouldn't have been in the mood for the referee deflection.

MaroonAndGreen · 07-10-2015 8:04pm

rarnes1 wrote: »

Consistently finishing in the champions league spots which keeps the money men happy. All while spending little. He's an owners dream manager tbh.

Again, shows Arsenal's true standing as a club. Not in the elite bracket. Owners at the elite clubs demand trophies, finishing in the top 4 consistently isn't good enough.

Finishing in the top 4 every year might be the owner's dream at a second-tier club like Spurs, obviously Arsenal are in the same tier as at the true big clubs you need to win trophies.

07-10-2015 8:07pm

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Again, shows Arsenal's true standing as a club. Not in the elite bracket. Owners at the elite clubs demand trophies, finishing in the top 4 consistently isn't good enough.

Finishing in the top 4 every year might be the owner's dream at a second-tier club like Spurs, obviously Arsenal are in the same tier as at the true big clubs you need to win trophies.

Arsenal are self sustaining. Not every club gets bank rolled by a billionaire. Chelsea and City would be 2nd tier teams as you like to call them without free money.

monkey9 · 07-10-2015 8:11pm

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Again, shows Arsenal's true standing as a club. Not in the elite bracket. Owners at the elite clubs demand trophies, finishing in the top 4 consistently isn't good enough.

Finishing in the top 4 every year might be the owner's dream at a second-tier club like Spurs, obviously Arsenal are in the same tier as at the true big clubs you need to win trophies.

Wenger mightn't be getting the credit now, but in a few years after he's gone and Arsenal are winning trophies based on a very very stable foundation, Wenger will be lauded as the catalyst that built the club for the 21st century.

LuckyLloyd · 07-10-2015 8:12pm

At Porto he delivered the UEFA Cup and the CL in his two seasons
At Chelsea he delivered their first league title in a half century in his first season
At Inter he delivered their first CL in 35 years in his second season as part of a treble
At Real he won the league title in his second season, breaking Barcelona's run of dominance
In his return to Chelsea, he delivered the league title in his second season

As if the rest ****ing matters. Hire him, win the big trophies. No other manager in world football right now comes with that type of guarantee.

CSF · 07-10-2015 8:12pm

gosplan wrote: »

Grand.

But let's equally not delude ourselves into playing the 'poor Jose get's singled out for nothing' card. They guy goes looking for fights wherever he goes, and surprise surprise, he finds them.

None of this really matters. Jose will win or lose games and that's really what will define his management.

But can we please end this circling the wagons nonsense about how he get's picked on and arguing every decision that goes against him.

He brings all of this on himself. His team stunk the place out, conceded three goals at home in te league for the first time ever under his management, his selection is bordering on bizzare ... and he fails to mention the opposition and rants about the ref.

And if any other manager carried in the way he does, they'd get the same treatment ... but they don't.

Hold on a second now, that is not at all what I've been doing. I'm all for the Mourinho bashing but lets apply a bit of consistency to our approach, particularly when other people do the same thing, rather than doing a 'Oh well Mourinho does it more' thing. And you went pretty far down that road with the whole 'oh well Wenger was right' argument.

There is a hell of alot of scope for Mourinho so I don't get why people have to be hypocrites when doing so.

grumpymunster · 07-10-2015 8:13pm

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Again, shows Arsenal's true standing as a club. Not in the elite bracket. Owners at the elite clubs demand trophies, finishing in the top 4 consistently isn't good enough.

Finishing in the top 4 every year might be the owner's dream at a second-tier club like Spurs, obviously Arsenal are in the same tier as at the true big clubs you need to win trophies.

Thing is financially we are a bigger club than Arsenal and have been for some time

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/30915985

Chelsea are no longer a football club neither are United, City et al they are brands global brands at that.

grumpymunster · 07-10-2015 8:19pm

monkey9 wrote: »

Wenger mightn't be getting the credit now, but in a few years after he's gone and Arsenal are winning trophies based on a very very stable foundation, Wenger will be lauded as the catalyst that built the club for the 21st century.

Possibly but the fact is United are the biggest team in England and I Suspect always will be.

But it is pure conjecture to say Arsenal win win anything in the future, as I am also sure Roman and Oil rich City will have an awful lot to say about that. No mind oil rich PSG and Barca, Adidas backed Munich and of course Madrid.

monkey9 · 07-10-2015 8:26pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

At Porto he delivered the UEFA Cup and the CL in his two seasons
At Chelsea he delivered their first league title in a half century in his first season
At Inter he delivered their first CL in 35 years in his second season as part of a treble
At Real he won the league title in his second season, breaking Barcelona's run of dominance
In his return to Chelsea, he delivered the league title in his second season

As if the rest ****ing matters. Hire him, win the big trophies. No other manager in world football right now comes with that type of guarantee.

Yeah but other than that.........

monkey9 · 07-10-2015 8:28pm

grumpymunster wrote: »

Possibly but the fact is United are the biggest team in England and I Suspect always will be.

But it is pure conjecture to say Arsenal win win anything in the future, as I am also sure Roman and Oil rich City will have an awful lot to say about that. No mind oil rich PSG and Barca, Adidas backed Munich and of course Madrid.

I'm not saying that Chelsea and Man City will fall away and Man U will always be around. But Arsenal will have plenty of money and they'll have no bother attracting top managers who will spend the money and bring home the trophies.

bad2dabone · 07-10-2015 8:30pm

rarnes1 wrote: »

Consistently finishing in the champions league spots which keeps the money men happy. All while spending little. He's an owners dream manager tbh.

Bingo.
So many folks don't get this.

grumpymunster · 07-10-2015 8:38pm

bad2dabone wrote: »

Bingo.
So many folks don't get this.

Yea but as a fan winning the cup with big ears or the PL is just a tad better really

Ulysses Gaze · 07-10-2015 9:13pm

grumpymunster wrote: »

Possibly but the fact is United are the biggest team in England and I Suspect always will be.

But it is pure conjecture to say Arsenal win win anything in the future, as I am also sure Roman and Oil rich City will have an awful lot to say about that. No mind oil rich PSG and Barca, Adidas backed Munich and of course Madrid.

Yes, but Utd have always spent big on players too. Back in the late 1990's, early 2000's they were spending huge money on the likes of Veron (£28 million) and Van Nistelrooy (£19 million)

Even before that, and before Ferguson, they were spending big money on players to try and close the gap on Liverpool.

Some Utd fans like to say that Liverpool only won everything in the 1970's and 1980's because of the Littlewoods connection. But it's not like Utd were paupers at that stage either.

Arsenal, also have a struggle going on in the background between their board members. Kroenke is more than happy with the status quo as is. But Usmanov? Put it this way, if Usmanov ever got full control of the club, I'd expect there would be big changes in the way that Arsenal are run and perhaps Wenger would not be as comfortable as he is now. Usmanov has consistently expressed same frustrations that the fans have at the lack of player investment.

Arsenal will now be very attractive to top players and top managers because of a) Their set-up (stadium & training), b) location and c) Football philosophy (which has changed dramatically since Wenger took over). And they are paying top wages now as well.

gosplan · 07-10-2015 9:25pm

CSF wrote: »

Hold on a second now, that is not at all what I've been doing. I'm all for the Mourinho bashing but lets apply a bit of consistency to our approach, particularly when other people do the same thing, rather than doing a 'Oh well Mourinho does it more' thing. And you went pretty far down that road with the whole 'oh well Wenger was right' argument.

There is a hell of alot of scope for Mourinho so I don't get why people have to be hypocrites when doing so.

Apologies, am not trying to get in a row with you.

What I'm simply trying to say is that when a manager complains about a bad decision that was subsequentally overturned, his actions may be tactically ignored by the FA...which is as close as they come to admitting that poor officiating costs teams points.

To give you another example, when Arsenal drew nil all with Liverpool and a perfectly good Ramsey goal was ruled out, Wenger didn't even go there. He spoke about being lucky with the new CB pairing in the first half and Cech keeping them in it. Then he spoke about the average start to the season. He didn't even bother complaining about the decision.

But when you find a decision to complain about after every match, the FA will be less kind because you're taking them on with no justification.

After the Newcastle match Jose basically said, I knew after we drew level we wouldn't win with that ref.

After the Saints match, he went on a rant about decisions with the reality being that they deserved to lose and that more decisions went against Southampton.

He is continuing in public at every opportunity against the FA.

If he wants it to stop, he just needs to stop it.

CSF · 07-10-2015 9:32pm

gosplan wrote: »

Apologies, am not trying to get in a row with you.

What I'm simply trying to say is that when a manager complains about a bad decision that was subsequentally overturned, his actions may be tactically ignored by the FA...which is as close as they come to admitting that poor officiating costs teams points.

To give you another example, when Arsenal drew nil all with Liverpool and a perfectly good Ramsey goal was ruled out, Wenger didn't even go there. He spoke about being lucky with the new CB pairing in the first half and Cech keeping them in it. Then he spoke about the average start to the season. He didn't even bother complaining about the decision.

But when you find a decision to complain about after every match, the FA will be less kind because you're taking them on with no justification.

After the Newcastle match Jose basically said, I knew after we drew level we wouldn't win with that ref.

After the Saints match, he went on a rant about decisions with the reality being that they deserved to lose and that more decisions went against Southampton.

He is continuing in public at every opportunity against the FA.

If he wants it to stop, he just needs to stop it.

We are not disagreeing about Mourinho doing it more. But this kindness from the FA stuff, that's not how it should work. Mourinho breaks the rules 5 times, should be punished 5 times, Wenger does it twice, should be punished twice.

grumpymunster · 07-10-2015 9:45pm

Ultimately it is the football authorities fault. There is more to "Respect" than a badge on shirts. First respect has to be earned it is not given. Second if criticising an official is against the rules then every example should be penalised. Third players crowding refs should be heavily punished. Fourth Players shouting at refs should be heavily punished. Fifth refs should have to explain their actions, football is fast they make mistakes and players try and push the rules cheat what ever. But in most professions you have to answer for your actions referees should.

If the FA, UEFA, FIFA wanted to end this they would - they choose not to.

Let's cut to the quick all managers do it some get away with it far more than others but none should.

That would be fair, and that is all you want a level playing field no more.

bad2dabone · 07-10-2015 10:12pm

grumpymunster wrote: »

Yea but as a fan winning the cup with big ears or the PL is just a tad better really

Of course it is!
That's completely true man.

I was referring to people who want Wenger sacked. It doesn't matter what they want, from a certain type owner's point of view (American, revenue driven) then a manager who achieves a constant financial return without huge spends or demands is ideal.

monkey9 · 07-10-2015 10:16pm

bad2dabone wrote: »

Of course it is!
That's completely true man.

I was referring to people who want Wenger sacked. It doesn't matter what they want, from a certain type owner's point of view (American, revenue driven) then a manager who achieves a constant financial return without huge spends or demands is ideal.

And when Wenger does go, that's some amount of savings for the quality replacement to spend. Arsenal are grand.

grumpymunster · 07-10-2015 10:18pm

bad2dabone wrote: »

Of course it is!
That's completely true man.

I was referring to people who want Wenger sacked. It doesn't matter what they want, from a certain type owner's point of view (American, revenue driven) then a manager who achieves a constant financial return without huge spends or demands is ideal.

Sorry picked you up wrong, that's very true.

grumpymunster · 07-10-2015 10:22pm

monkey9 wrote: »

And when Wenger does go, that's some amount of savings for the quality replacement to spend. Arsenal are grand.

Perhaps perhaps not not wanting to slag a man who just lost his job but if a new managers signings didn't work out like Liverpools recent ones or a lot of the Spurs ones from the Bale money then support and money is quick to go.

These things are transient and difficult to predict, but in general yes they should be fine.

Now back to the thread I think the main song from the Lego movie is about Jose. Everything is awesome .........

MonsterCookie · 07-10-2015 10:25pm

GavRedKing wrote: »

Now I know youre extracting the urine.

Ya might aswell throw in AVB, Scolari and Grant too. :pac:

For the record only ex manager I'd have back is Ancelotti.

Fair cop GRK...I was taking the piss especially with the Rafa comment even though he was pretty good for you guys, no?

grumpymunster · 07-10-2015 10:27pm

MonsterCookie wrote: »

Fair cop GRK...I was taking the piss especially with the Rafa comment even though he was pretty good for you guys, no?

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

bad2dabone · 07-10-2015 10:29pm

monkey9 wrote: »

And when Wenger does go, that's some amount of savings for the quality replacement to spend. Arsenal are grand.

Of course, if the new guy is let spend it

But United have put a few hundred mill into their side with questionable success.
Anyhow back to Jose I think the points made earlier about his high pressure siege mentality style contributing to the current issues at Chelsea are spot on.
But I also think that he's very aware of his growing reputation as a two or three season manager and he'll want that cycle to end. It remains to be seen if the oligarch will pull the trigger on him. I dunno if he will sack him, I think he might well give him a chance

bad2dabone · 07-10-2015 10:32pm

grumpymunster wrote: »

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

He didn't do too bad, won the European competition that yiz were in, qualified for the CL.
Not bad eh?

Jose Mourinho

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