Wesley Hoolahan

MrJoeSoap · 23-12-2005 1:18am #1

The most talented player in the Eircom League at this present moment, bar none, is seemingly on his way to Scottish relegation battlers Livingstone. The most skillful and entertaining individual in Irelands national league see's it as a step-up to move to Scotland in order to further his career as a footballer.

First of all, lets get one thing straight. I don't begrudge anyone leaving a top side in the eircom League for the Premiership or top half of the Championship. Far from it. I've been delighted at the progress Kevin Doyle has been making in recent months, propelling Reading FC to the top of the Championship table as their top scorer, and they are now an unassailable 20 points clear of 3rd place. Reading can't believe their luck, an £80,000 signing from nowhere firing them into the Premiership.

Every eL fan who had seen Doyler knows what a talent he is/was. Now it seems that Reading are coming to realise what a great piece of business it was. Their fans will readily admit Cork were robbed. As a Shels fan, I didn't see a great deal of Doyle, only whatever was shown on TV or his performances against us. Even so, he looked a class act.

Wes Hoolahan on the other hand, I have seen an awful lot of. The trickiest, most exciting player I have seen in a long time, every time he gets the ball you expect something. His range of passing, his dribbling, his tricks, everything about the guy screams "Premiership" at me. As much as I would hate him leaving, he belongs at a high level. Livingstone? Don't make me laugh.

Should this transfer go through, and should the eL and Ireland lose its brightest talent to a weak Scottish outfit, we should all take a long, hard look at ourselves. Scotland, with a population not much more than our own country, has two clubs who compete in Europe on a regular basis and attract 50,000+ capacity crowds week-in, week-out. Most Dublin sides would give anything for a crowd over 5,000.

I can't even really see where I'm going to take this argument. If I attack the people who sit at home and watch the Premiership every weekend and have no interest in the eL, I'll be seen as a "holier-than-thou". If I don't say anything I won't have made my point sufficiently clear. I'm not really going to give out to anyone, but I'm just going to make a point that there is a hell of a lot of talent in the domestic game that seems to be going unnoticed. The fact that this transfer seems to be going ahead for a sum of money about 20% of the players actual value really annoys me. What also annoys me is that more Irish people will probably see Wes while watching Scottish football on Sky/Setanta than have seen him play in the eL in the flesh.

Who suffers? The league? The fans? Everyone, in my opinion. How much longer will we allow our best players to leave for next to nothing? Over the past few days we have been talking about how great it is that Jason Byrne is being valued so highly by Djurgardens IF of Sweden. Seems to me like we are back to square one. A 23 year old winger, fresh off the best season of his career so far, is on his way to Scotland for a sum of money roughly equal to 10 weeks wages for Roy Keane. Are people happy about this? Sad? I genuinely want to know what people think about this.

I was going to go in to Tolka Park to get my season ticket tomorrow, but this has left a horribly sour taste in my mouth. Why do I bother supporting a league that repeatedly sells itself short? Why put my hard-earned cash behind a league that undervalues its players and consistently acts as a feeder to the mecca that is England? I don't know, I really don't.

-PS- The deal hasn't been finalised yet, so it may not happen (I'm going to pray to every potential "God" there is tonight). The post above has been ever so slightly been influenced by alcohol but is a heartfelt opinion, not aimed at criticising people who don't support the league. Its just a fairly dejected and apathetic rant about where domestic soccer is at. Its also not intended to offend anyone from other eL clubs, its really just a general eL rant, hopefully some fans will get at least something out of it.

I'm really interested to know what people think on the issue.

Cheers,
JoeSoap.

ctrl-alt-delete · 23-12-2005 1:23am

i dont really follow the EL but im aware of how good wesley is from the odd tv game ive seen him in. the way he's probably looking at it is - if he goes to livingston and is a success it normally doesnt take long for one of the big 2 teams you talk of to snap them up - can only think of agathe for example now. at the end of the day if he or livingston fail he can always go back to the EL?

MrJoeSoap · 23-12-2005 1:35am

ctrl-alt-delete wrote:

if he goes to livingston and is a success it normally doesnt take long for one of the big 2 teams you talk of to snap them up

Yeah thats the point Slash/ed made in the other thread. It's pretty much the truth and reality of the situation, but the point I'm trying to argue is 'Is this what we really want?'. Do we want our best clubs to be seen as feeder clubs to other feeder clubs? Why can't Irish soccer have success in Europe on the same scale as Scotland has had (albeit without the lack of competition)? Out population is roughly 80% of that of Scotland, they're not exactly drastically bigger than us, yet the facilities of the Scottish clubs put us to shame (not the standard of football however, we are only slightly behind in that respect when you exclude the top 2/3).

can only think of agathe for example now

There are tonnes more, especially at Rangers over the past while. Steven Thompson springs to mind.

ctrl-alt-delete · 23-12-2005 1:43am

MrJoeSoap wrote:

There are tonnes more, especially at Rangers over the past while. Steven Thompson springs to mind.

i was thinking of just celtic ones....as wesley going to rangers i thought might make you post a bigger more alcohol fueled type thread!

as for the main point you are trying to make then, i suppose you are just going to have to swallow all these bitter pills so to speak at the moment, the EL is slowly but surely getting there (are a few of cork's players leaving?) and time is probably the key factor...

lets just hope you are not too old now, to not enjoy it when they arn't feeder clubs for feeder clubs, or in an ideal situation if they arn't feeder clubs and the national team actually consists of people playing here (not that im for or against that).

MrJoeSoap · 23-12-2005 1:48am

ctrl-alt-delete wrote:

i was thinking of just celtic ones....as wesley going to rangers i thought might make you post a bigger more alcohol fueled type thread!

Haha no, I'd probably prefer to see him in a Rangers jersey. Not the biggest Celtic fan ever tbh.

as for the main point you are trying to make then, i suppose you are just going to have to swallow all these bitter pills so to speak at the moment, the EL is slowly but surely getting there (are a few of cork's players leaving?) and time is probably the key factor...

I guess I will, not much I can do about it! (And yeah Cork have lost Greg O'Halloran to us, and John O'Flynn and Liam Kearney to League One/Djurgardens and Heerenveen respectively)

lets just hope you are not too old now, to not enjoy it when they arn't feeder clubs for feeder clubs, or in an ideal situation if they arn't feeder clubs and the national team actually consists of people playing here (not that im for or against that).

That'll always be the dream. Hopefully I'll live to see it!

damienom · 23-12-2005 3:36am

It's a done deal apparently, Liv to splash 300K.

Jason Byrne and Glen Crowe living the high life in the 02 bar at The Point tonight. Alot of talk in the room that neither want to be at Shels next year

Töpher · 23-12-2005 3:44am

Obviously the main difference in Scotland is they get asses on seats. Quite how I'm not sure, apart from the top two (maybe 3 this year) the standard of football is nothing special, at all. I'd say outside the top 3 at the moment, any of our top teams could beat any of their remaining top teams. That's all hypothetical, but the standard of football in Scotland seems quite poor, and definately not much in the way of entertaining football. I'd be interested in finding out if the smaller clubs up there do certain advertising schemes prior to games? How exactly they get the word out, etc.

Perhaps some of it is the political/religious divides, perhaps some of it is the desire to experience live football.

Above all else, I think alot of it comes down to one thing; pride. No matter how poorly a team is playing up there, they get the crowds. Why? Atmosphere. A fantastic afternoons edge-of-your-seat entertainment. And pride. Fans who follow their team because they are proud of who they are and where they are from. Fans who genuinely relish the victorys and despair in the defeats.

Nothing can compete with the ecstasy of being amongst a few thousand people going absolutely barmy when your team scores in the last minute to tie the scores or snatch 3 points from bitter rivals. Nothing beats the build up banter in the pub before hand, and the celebrations or drowning of sorrows (afterall, that is part of sport!) after the match.

I'm sure a huge proportion of them have Sky Sports and will cheer on Arsenal or some other English team to whom they have no logical connection, but whats wrong with that? If I had the money Sky Sports would be first on my list of needs/wants, but it still wouldn't come before the live game if times conflicted - which they don't, by the way!.

Everyone loses out in situations like this, the clubs, the fans. Honestly I blame the Irish public. For a nation that comes accross as so anti-British/anti-English we lapped up the English Premiership like hungry kittens do milk. A nation that seems to love nothing more than seeing England fall apart, while wearing their genuine €50 English Liverpool jersey.

I've no problem with people not supporting the domestic league, each to their own, but I meet alot of people when out and about who write off the league and teams, without ever having seen a game, and thats one thing that gets right up my nose.

What jersey's that?
Shelbourne.
Sure they're ****e!
Ok so.... Ever watched or been to a game?
Sure no, why would I? They're ****e.
How'd you reach that conclusion?
They just are, Celtic are the only team for me.
Ever seen them live?
No, sure but I watch them on da telly all the time.

Even worse is you can nearly guarantee that in a year or three they'll all be talking about Premiership stars such as that amazing Kevin Doyle, or how fantastic Wesley Hoolihan is to watch, or how Daryl Murphy's been unlucky but he'll bounce back... But the league will still be written off as thrash, with a large majority never having been to a game. :rolleyes:

[/typing]

This is based on experiences I've had, if you take offense at what I said, then maybe I'm talking about you, maybe I'm not.

//edit: Of course, I wish Weso all the best in his career. A true star destined to light many a pitch with his skills, it's just a shame we won't get to watch you in the flesh next year. I for one will follow his career with eagerness, and pray that one day he may well don the jersey of the Real Reds once again. What are the odds on an international call up now he's playing at a "higer level"...?

LizardKing · 23-12-2005 11:25am

Thats 2 big players for Shels that appear to be moving on , They'll be difficult to replace .. bobby ryan and crowe would probably take over for them , but crowe was no where near as good as byrne last year and ryan has not shone yet either ... Hopefully Pat fenlon has a few signings up his sleaves ...

Töpher · 23-12-2005 11:34am

Ryan's no good on the left!

MrJoeSoap · 23-12-2005 11:35am

We could sign any left winger in the world and I'd still be p*ssed off at losing Wes. He can't be replaced! Byrne is a mighty tough act to follow too.

MrJoeSoap · 23-12-2005 11:37am

From Rte.ie

Hoolihan looks set for Livingston switch
Friday, 23 December 2005 9:58

Wesley Hoolihan could be on his way to Livingston

Shelbourne winger Wesley Hoolihan looks set to leave Tolka Park for Scottish Premier League strugglers Livingston in the January transfer window.

Hoolihan is one of the most talented youngsters in the league and his exit would be a major blow to Shels, but after having an initial offer for the player rejected, Livingston returned with an improved bid which the Shelbourne board are now considering.

Manager Pat Fenlon said: "The situation is that we've made it clear to Wes that we don't want him to go.

"He's a smashing player and a big part of my plans here but unfortunately he has said that he wants to give British football another go and so that makes the situation difficult from our point of view."

Hoolihan has just one year to run on his current contract and Livingston's second offer, believed to be in the region of €225,000, could prove too much for the Dublin side to resist.

Meanwhile, Jason Byrne's on-off move to Swedish side Djurgardens appears to be back on track, with the club confirming on their official website that they expect a deal to be agreed in the coming days.

Töpher · 23-12-2005 11:42am

Better get some clauses into both of their contracs then, International Caps/Goals/Appearances etc.

Big Nelly · 23-12-2005 11:46am

Only seen Wes a few times on TV but I don't really think this thread is about him. More to do with why the EL isn't supported well.

My explanation: Well I grew up in Cavan so no club anywhere close to me. Seen when lemline mentioned this before got a load of bulls**t from people about Dundalk/Monaghan. As he said that would have meant over an hour drive and when you are 0-18 you don't really have a car to drive around to follow a club. So easier to turn on tele and watch the PL. Which is why I started to support Premier League. I would still check out the EL scores in the Indo on a Monday morning and always kept an eye out for Shamrock Rovers scores(used to like the Jersey)

So moved to Dublin about 8 years ago(originally from Dub) and was going to start following the league. Live in Blanch so prob Bohs would be closest club to me and I am in Drumcondra for work reason most Friday nights. But perhaps that was the problem.

I seen the crowd going to the game, not don't start all this ban this person because he said something against the Eircom League or about the people that go to it. I ain't having a go at anyone here but just a point of view I had. So before you all get on your high horses and start the so on maybe listen to an outsiders point of view and then maybe think about why the league can't attrach more supporters.

The "fans" if you want to call them where not the sort I want to hang out with or to be honest inside a stadium with limited exit points to get away from them. I stay away from City Centre most of the time so I don't have to meet/talk/run away from these people.

Now you could say this is a limited part of the crowd but there was a thread on here before when I commented on the EL crowds and someone came back and said it was only a bad few. I asked then why didnt you report them to the cops. Answer I get back: well its like a school ground atitude that you dont tell. Like FFS lads grow the f**k up. I asked then if they seen the same person rob a car would they report them. No answer. Isnt breaking the law breaking the law? well according to EL fans(again not all) it is ok to do watever(attack other fans/anyone) once you are at a game and it isnt breaking the law but once outside the ground everything changes.

Now as I mentioned I would rather stay in my house and watch the PL where I am more or less safe(could be killed anyway in house) than standing in a stand with 300-400 thugs that think because they follow the EL club they can get away with riots/abuse/beating up people.

From my point of view and most people I know they will never support an EL team when this is the "fans" the club has. I go to the majority of Ireland games when I can get tickets. Go to rugby games, both international and the Leinster ones and have never had a problem. I was parked along the road when a bohs game was on and got more or less attacked by the "fans" of the club. So you think I am going to go into a ground with these "fans"? no chance!

Good luck to Wes!

Now again I aint attacking Bohs fans or EL fans in a whole but this is my personal point of view. It may be wrong but then it is my point of view and also of all the people I know so just really asking why so many people(including myself) has this point of view? maybe EL fans can look at yourselves and see if it is actually your own problem why your club dont get bigger attendances.

Just to see this an example of this attitude is on here when you get EL fans going onto thread about PL teams and saying you can't comment or so on because you dont support an EL club. Now guys where is that going to get you? another potential fan shto down before he even gets a chance to see a game?

MrJoeSoap · 23-12-2005 11:47am

Yeah there would want to be a decent sell-on clause too, not too decent though (hehehehe).

€225k is the most pathetic valuation of the best young player in our league. Grrrr... I'm so angry!

Töpher · 23-12-2005 11:55am

Big Nelly; All one can say to that is it genuinely is a small minority, and apologise for any bad experiences you have had, regardless of who the fans claimed to support.

If you have about 2000 people, maybe 50 or so will be dodgy. There's also alot of people on a night out, and alot of fathers with young children, old folk who have followed the team, for 60 years, etc. Having been to several games in England (Premiership and Conference), its the same kind of situation over there, there's always a few bad eggs looking for trouble - and most of the time, apart from the big derbies, they don't get it.

Could you say that if you lived in England you wouldn't go to watch the Premier League because there's a small minority (in England a small percentage of fans is far greater than a small percentage in Ireland!) who ain't the nicest people ever?

I haven't been to a game there in about 5 years, but some of the people outside the grounds (not directly outside, but within a minutes or two walk) have genuinely terrified me.

Just asking, is all

gracehopper · 23-12-2005 12:01pm

I think it would be a good move for wes, it can only make him better, he needs to play though, no use going over and sitting on the bench for a couple of years There is a huge gap in quality between the scottish premier and the EL and a player with natual ability and pace like Wes could really excel if he got the opportunity over there

Big Nelly · 23-12-2005 12:08pm

Einst&#252 wrote: »

Big Nelly; All one can say to that is it genuinely is a small minority, and apologise for any bad experiences you have had, regardless of who the fans claimed to support.

No need to apologize. Not saying it was you or anyone on boards that night. Just giving a example of why I have this point of view

Einst&#252 wrote: »

If you have about 2000 people, maybe 50 or so will be dodgy. There's also alot of people on a night out, and alot of fathers with young children, old folk who have followed the team, for 60 years, etc. Having been to several games in England (Premiership and Conference), its the same kind of situation over there, there's always a few bad eggs looking for trouble - and most of the time, apart from the big derbies, they don't get it.

Ok I know there is people out there for just a good night of footie and there will be families. My problem is(and it has been shown on here) that if these few bad eggs start to cause trouble then nobody says anything and either looks the other way or joins in. In England/Scotland if you start to cause problem you will soon find a cop on your shoulder because most grounds have video camera's now at every angle. In EL because of the low support you don't find this.

Now a while ago there was a thread on here about Shamrock Rovers, was mentioned they attacked fans, a so called fan on here came on and started to defend the shamrock supporters saying it wasn't there fault and that the cops should have stopped it. Why the f**k should the Garda put themselves in front of 200-300 fans to stop them being idiots. The Garda have enought to do without looking after a stadium full of children. Actually would be easier to look after childre.(Again Im not trying to rise people here I am directing this at the Shamrock fans who started/carried out that act)

Einst&#252 wrote: »

Could you say that if you lived in England you wouldn't go to watch the Premier League because there's a small minority (in England a small percentage of fans is far greater than a small percentage in Ireland!) who ain't the nicest people ever?

As mentioned above I would because of the security. I said I go to Ireland soccer and rugby games. Also have been known to go to the odd Cavan game:D

Einst&#252 wrote: »

I haven't been to a game there in about 5 years, but some of the people outside the grounds (not directly outside, but within a minutes or two walk) have genuinely terrified me.

Watch Euro Trip and see Vinny Jones in it. This is the type of person you seem to be refering too but I think the majority of these people in UK have been removed from the game.

Einst&#252 wrote: »

Just asking, is all

Just saying is all:D Again just my point of view

MrJoeSoap · 23-12-2005 12:17pm

Big Nelly wrote:

Only seen Wes a few times on TV but I don't really think this thread is about him. More to do with why the EL isn't supported well.

Its mainly just my reaction to the fact that our leagues most gifted youngster is leaving for a paltry sum of money.

Big Nelly wrote:

My explanation: Well I grew up in Cavan so no club anywhere close to me. Seen when lemline mentioned this before got a load of bulls**t from people about Dundalk/Monaghan.

Can you link to this "b*ll****"? I'm pretty sure I'm the person who mentioned both those places, only because he asked where his local club was. He said it was an hour and a half drive and I thought this was a bit of an exaggeration, I never once attacked him for not supporting an eL club, in fact quite the opposite. I said his reasons were perfectly understandable and acceptable, which they were.

So easier to turn on tele and watch the PL. Which is why I started to support Premier League. I would still check out the EL scores in the Indo on a Monday morning and always kept an eye out for Shamrock Rovers scores(used to like the Jersey)

Yep, much easier. I love watching the Premiership. For me it doesn't beat a live game though.

So moved to Dublin about 8 years ago(originally from Dub) and was going to start following the league. Live in Blanch so prob Bohs would be closest club to me and I am in Drumcondra for work reason most Friday nights. But perhaps that was the problem.

Bohs or Shels...

I seen the crowd going to the game, not don't start all this ban this person because he said something against the Eircom League or about the people that go to it.

The only person ever banned for insulting the eL was someone who directly had a go at me for supporting Shels and not an English club, he said something to the effect of "Support a real club would you". He was given numerous chances to take it back or change his post but was too stubborn to.

Now you could say this is a limited part of the crowd but there was a thread on here before when I commented on the EL crowds and someone came back and said it was only a bad few. I asked then why didnt you report them to the cops. Answer I get back: well its like a school ground atitude that you dont tell. Like FFS lads grow the f**k up. I asked then if they seen the same person rob a car would they report them. No answer. Isnt breaking the law breaking the law? well according to EL fans(again not all) it is ok to do watever(attack other fans/anyone) once you are at a game and it isnt breaking the law but once outside the ground everything changes.

If I saw someone breaking the law in any serious fashion at a game I'd report them to the Gardai if at all possible.

Now as I mentioned I would rather stay in my house and watch the PL where I am more or less safe(could be killed anyway in house) than standing in a stand with 300-400 thugs that think because they follow the EL club they can get away with riots/abuse/beating up people.

This whole "the league is full of thugs" perspective is blown wayyy out of proportion. I went to every single Shels home game this season and didn't see one act of violence (except Richie Bakers idiocy vs Waterford early in the season,

). Going to a game in the eL shouldn't be (and isn't) a chore. It's honestly the best craic you could have in this country. I get the train to Drumcondra, get something to eat, head down to Tolka, enjoy myself at the game and head back up to the train station. No problems there. Did that a good 15+ times this season, not one problem. And I'm not covering anything up for the sake of protecting the league, because if I felt in any way insecure at an eL match I'd have to reconsider my position. But I don't.

From my point of view and most people I know they will never support an EL team when this is the "fans" the club has. I go to the majority of Ireland games when I can get tickets. Go to rugby games, both international and the Leinster ones and have never had a problem.

Well then I hope you will believe me when I say the same thing about the eL! Seriously, we can organise to bring you to a Shels game next season (quick lads, this guy doesn't seem to have any particular allegiance, lets nab him!) and you can see for yourself.

I was parked along the road when a bohs game was on and got more or less attacked by the "fans" of the club. So you think I am going to go into a ground with these "fans"? no chance!

What do you mean by "more or less"?

Good luck to Wes!

(Begrudginly)... I guess so. :rolleyes:

Now again I aint attacking Bohs fans or EL fans in a whole but this is my personal point of view. It may be wrong but then it is my point of view and also of all the people I know so just really asking why so many people(including myself) has this point of view? maybe EL fans can look at yourselves and see if it is actually your own problem why your club dont get bigger attendances.

I certainly hope it isn't my fault! I drag along my mates who don't follow eL and they generally have a good time and come back with me again. The reason I started this thread is because it tears me up to see a player like Wes leave for a club like Livingston, and for such a ridiculously low fee. Would Irish people not prefer to support their own league and hopefully have a player or two from the domestic game in the Ireland squad more regularly?

Just to see this an example of this attitude is on here when you get EL fans going onto thread about PL teams and saying you can't comment or so on because you dont support an EL club. Now guys where is that going to get you? another potential fan shto down before he even gets a chance to see a game?

Emmm... I certainly haven't ever said that, neither has Einsturzende or Gimmick or Roar or KdjaC or the vast majority of the other eL fans. Speriamo has probably said it more than once but thats only one persons view and certainly isn't applicable to the rest of us. As I said before, I'd be delighted if Wes played in the Premiership, he deserves a shot at a much higher level anyway.

MrJoeSoap · 23-12-2005 12:19pm

gracehopper wrote:

I think it would be a good move for wes, it can only make him better, he needs to play though, no use going over and sitting on the bench for a couple of years There is a huge gap in quality between the scottish premier and the EL and a player with natual ability and pace like Wes could really excel if he got the opportunity over there

There certainly isn't a huge gap between the SPL and EL.

Töpher · 23-12-2005 12:21pm

Big Nelly wrote:

Just saying is all:D Again just my point of view

Aye, was just askin'

You make a good point on proper security arrangements though, something alot of us have been screaming out for. Very few incidents happen between fans, far fewer than the thread about Rovers would have you believe, but like anywhere else in the world it does happen from time to time. In England they have security in and around the grounds, but half a mile up the road there's nowt, which is where it all goes down, so to speak.

I remember reading an article about fans in Italy, all I can say is thank God we don't live there!!

:v:

Gardai are hired specifically for policing the stadium, and none of them seem to do their job unless something mental was to happen. They take it as getting paid to watch the games, and thats all they do. Actually, now that i'm thinking about that again, I will be writing a letter to whomever it may concern within the Garda Siochanna.

//edit: like MrJoeSoap has said above, I don't feel threatened at games. But his offer stands, make a night of it!

gracehopper · 23-12-2005 12:33pm

Celtic, Hearts, Rangers V Shels, Derry, Cork - that a huge gap in quality, i'm just pointing out that Wes would be playing against better players and i hope he doesnt go over and sit on the bench cos he's developing, it would be a nightmare for him if he signed in january and livingston got relegated in may

super_furry · 23-12-2005 12:34pm

Big Nelly wrote:

Now a while ago there was a thread on here about Shamrock Rovers, was mentioned they attacked fans, a so called fan on here came on and started to defend the shamrock supporters saying it wasn't there fault and that the cops should have stopped it. Why the f**k should the Garda put themselves in front of 200-300 fans to stop them being idiots. The Garda have enought to do without looking after a stadium full of children. Actually would be easier to look after childre.(Again Im not trying to rise people here I am directing this at the Shamrock fans who started/carried out that act)

I believe I am the Shamrock Rovers fan you mention there, and I resent the 'so called' part, implying that I am in fact, something other than a supporter. Sadly you are basing your assumptions on hearsay, half-truths and rumours.

The incident you are trying to refer to took place at the end of the Shamrock Rovers and Dublin City match. Supporters took to the pitch to commiserate with the Rovers players after they were relegated. In a show of defiance, some fans stood and sung the Green Flag in front of the Dublin City fans of these a tiny group - 15 to 25 at most, and nowhere near your 200-300 figure, tried to charge the opposition. These idiots were forced away by police and the incident ended.

In future, I'd ask you to refrain from slandering my club without a basic knowledge of the facts. Rovers have had problems in the past, but the new board has taken a very aggresive stance against this and this season alone many known trouble seekers have been banned from home games.

The problem with many Irish football 'fans that think this way is that they rarely go to live football games. Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against people who follow Premiership teams, I'm a Liverpool fan and have been all my life, but so many of these people don't go to games ever and therefore don't know what happens in England that doesn't get reported here. The trouble that regularly takes place before and after Premiership games in worse that the eircom League, it just doesn’t get reported.

I’ve been to games at Old Trafford where there has been has been pitch battles on the forecourt outside afterwards. I’ve been to Merseyside derbies where kids have been spit on and pelted with coins and I’ve been to Leeds where I was threatened with a Stanley knife for wearing a Liverpool scarf. None of these incidents were considered major and certainly none considered news worthy and so, you never heard about them.

Incidents of genuine trouble in the eircom League are few and far between.

Töpher · 23-12-2005 12:38pm

gracehopper wrote:

Celtic, Hearts, Rangers V Shels, Derry, Cork - that a huge gap in quality, i'm just pointing out that Wes would be playing against better players and i hope he doesnt go over and sit on the bench cos he's developing, it would be a nightmare for him if he signed in january and livingston got relegated in may

Not if we got him back for free if they go down!

MrJoeSoap · 23-12-2005 12:40pm

gracehopper wrote:

Celtic, Hearts, Rangers V Shels, Derry, Cork - that a huge gap in quality, i'm just pointing out that Wes would be playing against better players and i hope he doesnt go over and sit on the bench cos he's developing, it would be a nightmare for him if he signed in january and livingston got relegated in may

Obviously there is a gap there, but Shels, Derry, Cork, Drogs would all compare favourably to the 9 other SPL teams, so the gap certainly isn't huge.

Big Nelly · 23-12-2005 12:45pm

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Can you link to this "b*ll****"? I'm pretty sure I'm the person who mentioned both those places, only because he asked where his local club was. He said it was an hour and a half drive and I thought this was a bit of an exaggeration, I never once attacked him for not supporting an eL club, in fact quite the opposite. I said his reasons were perfectly understandable and acceptable, which they were.

Sorry I seen your comments but was on another thread he was attacked or could have been the same one as your comments but I cant remember who it was. I read too many threads on boards but I do remember reading it and him saying it to me.

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Bohs or Shels...

Not Bohs anymore so open to the Shels thing

MrJoeSoap wrote:

If I saw someone breaking the law in any serious fashion at a game I'd report them to the Gardai if at all possible.

Good man

MrJoeSoap wrote:

This whole "the league is full of thugs" perspective is blown wayyy out of proportion. I went to every single Shels home game this season and didn't see one act of violence (except Richie Bakers idiocy vs Waterford early in the season, ). Going to a game in the eL shouldn't be (and isn't) a chore. It's honestly the best craic you could have in this country. I get the train to Drumcondra, get something to eat, head down to Tolka, enjoy myself at the game and head back up to the train station. No problems there. Did that a good 15+ times this season, not one problem. And I'm not covering anything up for the sake of protecting the league, because if I felt in any way insecure at an eL match I'd have to reconsider my position. But I don't.

This is a personal point of view. Not saying it is the truth but the EL does have to get rid of this point of view

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Well then I hope you will believe me when I say the same thing about the eL! Seriously, we can organise to bring you to a Shels game next season (quick lads, this guy doesn't seem to have any particular allegiance, lets nab him!) and you can see for yourself.

Haha, would be glad to go to a game, but if things work out will be seeing PL live next year, or actually Reading is closest but they will be in PL soon anyway

MrJoeSoap wrote:

What do you mean by "more or less"?

I aint going into it but lets say damage to car was done and when reported nobody seen anything:rolleyes: I was lucky to be in car so that protected me.

MrJoeSoap wrote:

I certainly hope it isn't my fault! I drag along my mates who don't follow eL and they generally have a good time and come back with me again. The reason I started this thread is because it tears me up to see a player like Wes leave for a club like Livingston, and for such a ridiculously low fee. Would Irish people not prefer to support their own league and hopefully have a player or two from the domestic game in the Ireland squad more regularly?

Well if the general public point of view is the same as mine(not saying it is) then I would say they would prefer to have Irish players playing in PL/Championship

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Emmm... I certainly haven't ever said that, neither has Einsturzende or Gimmick or Roar or KdjaC or the vast majority of the other eL fans. Speriamo has probably said it more than once but thats only one persons view and certainly isn't applicable to the rest of us. As I said before, I'd be delighted if Wes played in the Premiership, he deserves a shot at a much higher level anyway.

There has been threads where this has happened over the 4 or so years I have been on boards, can't name specific threads and all of the names abogve you have mentioned where not involved

KdjaCL · 23-12-2005 12:50pm

Hes not stupid so will know full well he has 4 months to turn it on and with a bit of a break and not playing every week for Shels should be fit enough for it. I would bet my ass he sticks in a clause about relegation (who is his agent?).

Hes in a win win situation he can go and get more money, can go and turn it on and get another move, can go do well and come back better. Fair play to him and i wonder if its Shels management this seaosn whic his driving him away, Fenlon had issues with picking his best players during the season maybe he thinks it will happen again.

Fair play to him for him to consider leaving and with the others over there , there must be something up. Shels always buy the best players and i cant recall ever seeing them sell a player on for more (arkins maybe). So not a loss for the league as such just a loss for Shels.

kdjac

MrJoeSoap · 23-12-2005 12:54pm

Big Nelly wrote:

Not Bohs anymore so open to the Shels thing

Great stuff!

This is a personal point of view. Not saying it is the truth but the EL does have to get rid of this point of view

Only by bringing people along to a few games I guess. Pity it won't look quite as appealing now that Wes is seemingly going.

Haha, would be glad to go to a game, but if things work out will be seeing PL live next year, or actually Reading is closest but they will be in PL soon anyway

Ah well, I suppose Kevin Doyle is the next best thing!

I aint going into it but lets say damage to car was done and when reported nobody seen anything:rolleyes: I was lucky to be in car so that protected me.

A couple of years back my dad had his car window smashed outside Dalymount, nothing to do with the game (I think...) but when we returned to the car the window was shattered. Its more an indication of the city we live in I guess.

Well if the general public point of view is the same as mine(not saying it is) then I would say they would prefer to have Irish players playing in PL/Championship

I hope people don't really think this. Maybe as the situation is at the moment I can understand why, but in general I would hope people might want a succesful Irish domestic game.

super_furry · 23-12-2005 12:55pm

Hoolihan is one of the best five players in the league, if Shel's let him go for a cent less than €300,000 they're mad. Looks like the Jason Byrne move is back on too - what's the story with Bray's cut on that? Heard it could be a quarter of the transfer fee.

gracehopper · 23-12-2005 12:55pm

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Obviously there is a gap there, but Shels, Derry, Cork, Drogs would all compare favourably to the 9 other SPL teams, so the gap certainly isn't huge.

IMO i think Shels would go down in their first season in the scottish league, im not saying this to wind you up, i support shels myself, its just my opinion, i just think there is a big difference between the leagues

MrJoeSoap · 23-12-2005 12:57pm

super_furry wrote:

Hoolihan is one of the best five players in the league, if Shel's let him go for a cent less than €300,000 they're mad. Looks like the Jason Byrne move is back on too - what's the story with Bray's cut on that? Heard it could be a quarter of the transfer fee.

Haha, we wish. Its 50%.

MrJoeSoap · 23-12-2005 12:58pm

gracehopper wrote:

IMO i think Shels would go down in their first season in the scottish league, im not saying this to wind you up, i support shels myself, its just my opinion, i just think there is a big difference between the leagues

Well I think they'd do quite well. Impossible to tell really though.

Töpher · 23-12-2005 1:00pm

super_furry wrote:

Hoolihan is one of the best five players in the league, if Shel's let him go for a cent less than €300,000 they're mad. Looks like the Jason Byrne move is back on too - what's the story with Bray's cut on that? Heard it could be a quarter of the transfer fee.

The big five zero. 50%.

Madness. In all it looks like Shelbourne will receive less than €500,000 for Jason Byrne AND Weso Hoolihan.

super_furry · 23-12-2005 1:02pm

50% is madness. For play to Bray for getting them to agree to it but, what the hell was Ollie playing at when he signed that deal?

MrJoeSoap · 23-12-2005 1:05pm

Bray were certainly in control of that deal, there were numerous clubs after Byrne. Obviously Shels were desperate to sign him and agreed to 50%, perhaps not forseeing that he would be quite as succesful as he has been.

Big Nelly · 23-12-2005 1:08pm

super_furry wrote:

In future, I'd ask you to refrain from slandering my club without a basic knowledge of the facts. Rovers have had problems in the past, but the new board has taken a very aggresive stance against this and this season alone many known trouble seekers have been banned from home games.

I aint slandering anything. It wasn't that incident I was talking about anyway. It was another one where they where playing Bohs or Shels or Pats. One of there big rivals and the "fans" caused a riot. Was on here and on the newspaper. So if you want to start throwing around the word "Slander" then talk to the papers.

Also it wasn't you that was commenting on it. Was some guy with a Shamrock Rovers signature

MrJoeSoap wrote:

A couple of years back my dad had his car window smashed outside Dalymount, nothing to do with the game (I think...) but when we returned to the car the window was shattered. Its more an indication of the city we live in I guess.

Yeah I remember a while ago when everyone was at an Ireland game all there cars where broke into. Nothing to do with the game. Difference here was I was outside and then in car after jumping in and locking it while Bohs fans in there jersey attacked it. I put that down to fans:D

MrJoeSoap · 23-12-2005 1:15pm

Big Nelly wrote:

Yeah I remember a while ago when everyone was at an Ireland game all there cars where broke into. Nothing to do with the game. Difference here was I was outside and then in car after jumping in and locking it while Bohs fans in there jersey attacked it. I put that down to fans:D

Well obviously I can't excuse that, but I work in a shop where some guys regularly come in wearing Shamrock Rovers jackets and knock stuff off shelves and steal. They are the kind of muppets who go along to the odd game looking for a fight and leave disappointed. I can only assure you incidents like the one you suffered are isolated.

This debate is good for me, its taken my mind off the whole Wes situation for a while...

Töpher · 23-12-2005 1:16pm

You weren't wearing a Rovers jersey were you?!

Thats appauling!

Big Nelly · 23-12-2005 1:18pm

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Well obviously I can't excuse that, but I work in a shop where some guys regularly come in wearing Shamrock Rovers jackets and knock stuff off shelves and steal. They are the kind of muppets who go along to the odd game looking for a fight and leave disappointed. I can only assure you incidents like the one you suffered are isolated.

This debate is good for me, its taken my mind off the whole Wes situation for a while...

Well just to clear it up when ever the next game is on will head into Shels, will try and persuade either Lemlin or Kaiser to join me. Then I can speak from a personal point of view:D thats if Im in Ireland:D

Tickets or buy on the gate?

Well this debate is keeping me awake in the office.

super_furry · 23-12-2005 1:19pm

Big Nelly wrote:

I aint slandering anything. It wasn't that incident I was talking about anyway. It was another one where they where playing Bohs or Shels or Pats. One of there big rivals and the "fans" caused a riot. Was on here and on the newspaper. So if you want to start throwing around the word "Slander" then talk to the papers.

Oh well that narrows it down then. It was......some......Dublin team........honest! Like I said, if you don't have a basic grasp of the facts or know what you're talking about, which you aparantly don't seeing as you can't even narrow down to which game you're wibbling on about, then you shouldn't be commenting.

Big Nelly wrote:

Also it wasn't you that was commenting on it. Was some guy with a Shamrock Rovers signature

Well then it's Blu_Sonic you owe an apology to for implying that he's a hooligan. He's around most days, and certainly not the 'so called fan' you acuse him of being.

Big Nelly · 23-12-2005 1:35pm

super_furry wrote:

Oh well that narrows it down then. It was......some......Dublin team........honest! Like I said, if you don't have a basic grasp of the facts or know what you're talking about, which you aparantly don't seeing as you can't even narrow down to which game you're wibbling on about, then you shouldn't be commenting.

Well then it's Blu_Sonic you owe an apology to for implying that he's a hooligan. He's around most days, and certainly not the 'so called fan' you acuse him of being.

I don't owe an apology to anyone. You have a problem then take it up with your club not me. Not my fault there is a "tiny group" of hooligans in your fan base.

super_furry wrote:

The incident you are trying to refer to took place at the end of the Shamrock Rovers and Dublin City match. Supporters took to the pitch to commiserate with the Rovers players after they were relegated. In a show of defiance, some fans stood and sung the Green Flag in front of the Dublin City fans of these a tiny group - 15 to 25 at most, and nowhere near your 200-300 figure, tried to charge the opposition. These idiots were forced away by police and the incident ended.

Why bother going over near the other fans if you where only on the pitch in a "show of defiance"? Do you see any fans of rugby/Gaelic/any sports having to resort to going to the other fans in a "show of defiance"? NO. The only reason they where on the pitch was to cause trouble. What happens at every All Ireland? all the fans are on the pitch. Do you see them going near the opposing fans or having to show them anything? usually it is a mixture of fans from both countys. No trouble.

Basic grasp? sorry but I don't want anything to do with Shamrock Rovers if you call yourself a fan and still see it ok to go over to the opposing teams fans when you feel like it for a "show of defiance"

Some crackdown by the board. Would hate to see if they where lenient

super_furry · 23-12-2005 1:45pm

Big Nelly wrote:

I don't owe an apology to anyone. You have a problem then take it up with your club not me. Not my fault there is a "tiny group" of hooligans in your fan base.

I have no problem to take up with my club. But I have a problem when you claim that '200 to 300' Shamrock Rovers fans attacked rival fans. When challenged on this, you are unable to name when or where this happened or even against which team, instead offer vague 'it was in the paper' claims. You implied that a poster on this board is a hooligan, with no basis.

Big Nelly wrote:

Why bother going over near the other fans if you where only on the pitch in a "show of defiance"? Do you see any fans of rugby/Gaelic/any sports having to resort to going to the other fans in a "show of defiance"? NO. The only reason they where on the pitch was to cause trouble. What happens at every All Ireland? all the fans are on the pitch. Do you see them going near the opposing fans or having to show them anything? usually it is a mixture of fans from both countys. No trouble.

The team had just been relegated, Green Flag had become an anthem of defiance towards the end of the season with the increasing likelihood of relegation. There was no aggression or malice in the gesture aside from the 20 or so scumbags that the police dealt with. A similar situation took place two weeks before when we played Cork - fans stood in front of Cork fans singing the Green Flag and both sets of fans applauded each other out of the stadium. It was a spontaneous display of support for the club.

Big Nelly · 23-12-2005 1:55pm

super_furry wrote:

You implied that a poster on this board is a hooligan, with no basis.

I implied nothing. I said that he(like yourself) seem to think that it is ok for fans to act like this. You have only galvanised this point with your atitude.

Read my posts, I clearly stated it was a point of view.

Again why you think you need to show defiance to the opposing fans is beyond me. What do they care if you are going down? why not show it to your own supporters? oh sorry thats what normal fans would do.

MrJoeSoap · 23-12-2005 2:04pm

Big Nelly wrote:

Well just to clear it up when ever the next game is on will head into Shels, will try and persuade either Lemlin or Kaiser to join me. Then I can speak from a personal point of view:D thats if Im in Ireland:D

Tickets or buy on the gate?

Pay at the gate. Season kicks off in mid-February (well the Setanta Cup at least).

KdjaCL · 23-12-2005 2:06pm

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Pay at the gate. Season kicks off in mid-February (well the Setanta Cup at least).

No point in going to Shels unless they have a few U21s who can they can play, there be noone left by then........zing

/2 points to me for 1st dig.

kdjac

MrJoeSoap · 23-12-2005 2:26pm

Yeah maybe he should go to Richmond while Pats are still a Premier Division club.

1-1

Töpher · 23-12-2005 3:27pm

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Pay at the gate. Season kicks off in mid-February (well the Setanta Cup at least).

The Glentoran game'd be a great one!

Sure the offer extends to anyone with no particular allegiance to a League of Ireland club who's interested in taking a gander, more than welcome to join us.

A repeat fixture of last years Champions League qualifying game!

Slash/ED · 23-12-2005 3:52pm

gracehopper wrote:

IMO i think Shels would go down in their first season in the scottish league, im not saying this to wind you up, i support shels myself, its just my opinion, i just think there is a big difference between the leagues

Suffice to say, complete and utter nonsense, and European results back that up. They wouldn't even be in a relegation battle, beyond the top teams in the league European results if anything favour the Irish sides. Results against each other show not much gap (Bohs beat Aberdeen, Shels lose to a last minute goal to Kilmarnock, and it's a better league than it was then by far too. Not to mention Pats and Shels against Celtic and Rangers mirrowing the average non old firm results against them), results against other sides from both leagues again backs this up. The year Shels beat the Icelandic champions Dunfermline went out, 3-1 at home, to their UEFA cup side.

Nonsense.

Overall, taking the top teams into account, the SPL is of course a step up from the EL. But Livingston as a club are a step down from Shels who would comfortabley beat them and all mannor of judging this kind of thing points to that. He's only moving there for 6 months, at least that'll be his plan anyway.

PHB · 23-12-2005 4:56pm

If he joins Livingston, keeps them up, and then gets noticed by a bigger team, possibly the top 2 in the SPL.
Once he joins them, he has a chance to get noticed by any team in the world.
ATM he will not be noticed by a top team.

It is a step up, irrelevent of playing level, only because of public exposure.

Töpher · 23-12-2005 5:25pm

In other words it's a better positioned shop window...

applehunter · 23-12-2005 6:24pm

gracehopper wrote:

Celtic, Hearts, Rangers V Shels, Derry, Cork - that a huge gap in quality, i'm just pointing out that Wes would be playing against better players and i hope he doesnt go over and sit on the bench cos he's developing, it would be a nightmare for him if he signed in january and livingston got relegated in may

I take it then that you weren't in Turners Cross for the "Capital of Culture Cup" vs Hibs from Edinburgh?

MrJoeSoap · 23-12-2005 10:51pm

LIVI WANT CELTIC STARS
SPL strugglers bid for Pearson, Agathe .. and Irish wing ace Wes
By Hugh Keevins

LIVINGSTON will launch a bid to take Celtic pair Didier Agathe and Stephen Pearson on loan.

And the SPL strugglers have also made an offer of £200,000 for Shelbourne winger Wesley Houlihan.

Houlihan was the Republic of Ireland's Young Player of the Year last season and has been tracked by Livi for some time.

Agathe has fallen off the radar under Gordon Strachan at Celtic Park and no longer figures even on the subs bench.Pearson is already on record as saying he'd consider a loan move to refresh his career.

The deal to sign 24-year-old Houlihan is expected to be completed in time to be Paul Lambert's first Christmas present as he tries to steer the West Lothian club away from the relegation zone. But Livi owner Pearse Flynn has warned the Dublin club not to attempt a transfer price hike.

Shelbourne tried to ask Swedish club Djurgardens for an inflated fee to buy their striker Jason Byrne at the start of the season and the deal was called off Flynn said: "We've been looking at Wesley for some time and we want him to help us from the first week in January.

"But we'll walk away rather than be held to ransom."

Shelbourne boss Pat Fenlon rates the winger highly but acccepts he can't hold on to him. He said: "Wesley ran the show against Deportivo La Coruna when we played them in Europe and I would love to keep him at our club.

"But he's looking for a new challenge and his contract's up at the end of the season.

"He's only a little guy but Wesley's as strong as an ox and goes past people for fun. He has been a full-timer for four years and his fitness levels are high."

Livi face Celtic on Boxing Day and will ask the club, where Flynn still has a £1million stake, to let Agathe and Pearson join them during the transfer window.

How ironic that Wes may be joined at Livingston by two players Celtic signed off fellow SPL teams who no longer figure in their plans...

Wesley Hoolahan

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