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7 Divers missing off Kilkee

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  • 14-03-2009 4:03pm
    #1
    gary82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭


    Just saw on the news that there's a search for 7 divers off the Clare coast. Lets hope they're all ok.

    See: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0314/divers.html

    Surely if it's such a big group they just drifted away from the boat and they're just waiting to get picked up now. Here's hoping.......


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    #2
    gman2k
    Registered Users Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭gman2k


    14/03/2009 - 14:20:14
    Seven divers have been rescued after they went missing off the coast of Co. Clare.

    The alarm was raised just after 1pm this afternoon when the divers failed to surface at the designated time.

    A major search operation was launched involving the Kilkee Marine Rescue Service, the coastguard helicopter and the Aer Corps.

    The divers were located a short time later - one is suffering from hypothermia, but the others are in good health.

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/eyaucwqleygb/


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    #3
    loctite
    Registered Users Posts: 589 ✭✭✭loctite


    I read yesterday that the cost of the rescue was 50,000 euro. And do you know what? it should never have happened!!:mad::mad::mad:

    I live locally, have worked for the local dive centre (both instructor and coxswain), and crewed with the local marine search and rescue and I am FURIOUS!!

    I feel that Athlone Sub aqua were completely negligent going out in the conditions in which they did. They also had on board (I was told by a rescuer) a pair of 16 year olds.

    They took trainee divers out in 10-15ft swells by a cliff, what were they expecting to happen? Not only have they possibly scared these poor youths off diving completely but they could have killed them.

    Every year without fail there is an incident by this club (I cannot refer to it as an accident as accident implies an element of chance or lack of opportunity of prevention). I have witnessed two members of this club thrown down guzzling oxygen outside the Kilkee marine rescue centre, after divers have had a rapid accent from a deep dive. Could happen I guess, but perhaps the decision to do a deep night dive (middle rock 35-40m) may not have been a sensible choice of dive site for a night dive.

    I have been asked to open up the rescue centre to provide help for their divers who have suspected bends and have requested oxygen. While administering such the overwhelming smell of alcohol coming from the suspected "bend" victim.

    There are countless number of incidents perpetrated by this club... More than any other. They are reckless, negligent, and needlessly put at risk the lives of those who volunteer to local rescue services. They continue to attempt to dive in conditions which are totally undiveable and it is only going to be a matter of time before there is a fatality.

    Do not believe the newspaper reports when they were caught in a strong current. There is not normally a strong current present at George's Head in Kilkee, it was most likely the 15ft+ wave that was forming over the Scott's reef which was causing an undercurrent, which is where they dropped their divers.

    Athlone Sub Aqua........ Shame on you.
    I hope you have to foot some of the bill for this rescue because you owe it to the RNLI and the KMR. If it wasn't for that helicopter we all could be out there now searching for your two members bodies which were air lifted from the impending thrashing they were about to get off the cliffs by Chimney bay.......


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    #4
    murrayp4
    Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭murrayp4


    Shocking


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    #5
    murrayp4
    Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭murrayp4


    Divers criticised after €50,000 rescue operation

    PAT FLYNN

    Tue, Mar 17, 2009

    SEVEN DIVERS rescued after a massive search in Kilkee, Co Clare, on Saturday were “young and inexperienced and should not have gone diving in those conditions”, according to the Kilkee Marine Rescue Service.

    The criticism has been strongly rejected by the chairman of the diving club.

    It has been estimated that the cost of the massive search and rescue operation could be as much as €50,000 and could have been avoided if the divers had sought advice locally on the conditions.

    The seven men, all members of Athlone Sub Aqua Club, were carried by a strong current 600 metres out to sea over the top of a dangerous reef. The men had gone diving close to George’s Head at about midday and unknown to the operator of their safety boat, the group was carried some distance from their original location and were lucky to have survived.

    “If they had made contact with the local marine rescue service, sub aqua club or the staff at the dive centre, which is located at the pier, they would have been told not to go out. And for a member of the Athlone Sub Aqua Club to describe what happened as a minor incident is a gross understatement,” spokesman for the rescue service Manuel Di Lucia said yesterday.

    “This was a major incident and probably cost in the region of €50,000.”

    However, chairman of the sub aqua club Brian Duffy said: “Our members are experienced and have been diving in Kilkee for a large number of years. It was their opinion that conditions were safe and they did not foresee what happened.

    “They are all safe and well after the incident and we will be carrying out our own investigation of the incident and will be putting measures in place to ensure something like this doesn’t happen again. We would like to thank the rescue services for their prompt response on the day and we hope that lessons can be learned from this,” Mr Duffy said.

    Mr Di Lucia added: “Conditions were just horrific with a 15ft swell and no one should have gone diving in those conditions in Kilkee or anywhere else for that matter. It was so turbulent and these divers who were young and inexperienced should have known better. Luckily they managed to stay together, but this could have been a major disaster.”

    Valentia Coast Guard radio co-ordinated Saturday’s operation, which involved the Shannon-based Irish Coast Guard helicopter, Kilkee Marine and Rescue Service and members of the Athlone Sub Aqua Club. The Doolin and Kilkee units of the Irish Coast Guard as well as Kilkee Sub Aqua Club were also alerted and rushed to the scene.

    One 20-year-old diver was treated at the scene for hypothermia, while it is also understood that the youngest member of the group was just 15 years old.

    © 2009 The Irish Times


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    #6
    AOB71
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭AOB71


    I would like to question Mr. Duffy's quote that "It was their opinion that conditions were safe and they did not foresee what happened". I happened to be in Kilkee last Saturday before this accident happened, I drove up to George's Head to admire the huge waves which were crashing into the cliffs and the 20 foot breakers which were stretched out along the reef. I saw these divers bring their boat up close to the reef, but appear to stop, at which point i left thinking that they had enough sense to turn back. Later, when i heard what had happened, i was shocked at the stupidity of these divers. It is the most irresponsible act I have ever witnessed in Kilkee bay. I strongly believe that A) Criminal charges should be brought against the adults on board, as they appear to have had minors with them and only by luck were not killed. B) have their PADI certs removed, and C) Pay compensation to the Kilkee Rescue Service.
    For Mr Duffy to state that conditions were safe shows just how much knowledge of currents and sea conditions a person from the great seaside resort of Athlone has:confused:.


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    #7
    gary82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭gary82


    Irish Times wrote:
    It was so turbulent and these divers who were young and inexperienced should have known better

    Surely the fact that they were young and inexperienced would suggest that they would not have known better - they'd be taking advice from their older experienced dive leaders. :confused:

    It seems remarkable that they're strongly defending their decision to go out - worrying even. It's unlikely any "lessons can be learned from this" if they don't accept they did anything wrong...


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    #8
    loctite
    Registered Users Posts: 589 ✭✭✭loctite


    AOB71 wrote: »
    I strongly believe that A) Criminal charges should be brought against the adults on board, as they appear to have had minors with them and only by luck were not killed. B) have their PADI certs removed, and C) Pay compensation to the Kilkee Rescue Service.
    For Mr Duffy to state that conditions were safe shows just how much knowledge of currents and sea conditions a person from the great seaside resort of Athlone has:confused:.

    Just being pedantic, but they were not PADI certified Divers and this is a common misconception by the general non diving public. There are dive businesses (PADI centres) operating in Kilkee and when an incident occurs in the town it is immediately associated with the private operators. They do not distinguish between club or private businesses. As far as I am aware, the local dive operators safety record is 100%. All accidents involving diving in Kilkee has come about as a result of clubs. Not only are rogue clubs damaging the perception of safety in diving, but they are damaging the business of diving.

    I find it ironic that members of CFT organisation were calling for regulation of commercial diving operators (which included recreational centres) due to safety concerns, but yet clubs (which operate on a voluntary basis, thus receiving no income or benefits in kind) would be exempt from such regulation. I feel that people who provide training and charter, whether commercial or voluntary, are held responsible for their actions.

    Criminal Charges X 2....


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    #9
    donnchadhc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 47 ✭donnchadhc


    It was totally irresponsible of anybody to go diving in those conditions. Force 9 winds :eek:, what kind of lunatics are in this club?! Rogue (as loctite so aptly names) clubs/dive centers (and they're out there too believe me) not only drag down the name of those reptuable dive centers just trying to make a living but also the diving community as a whole!

    However, I have to disagree with loctite on the whole regulation aspect. Had this been a dive center or other commercial enterprise and if there had been a serious injury (or (god forbid!) something more serious), they would be prosecuted under the Safety, Health and Welfare General Application Regulations '07. Under the SHW Act '05, thats a criminal prosecution (not a civil one). Fair enough in a case like this, but if it had been a something like a bend on a calm day, how do you show that you did everything that is reasonably practible to prevent this? Current legislation goes back to 1981, and I know there is a draft update in the works, but I still feel there needs to be something akin to the UK HSE grade system that works like the construction industries CSCS and Safe pass cards to help those involved in the industry in Ireland to discharge their regulatory obligations and so protect them. Sorry if I've rambled or gone off topic here.


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    #10
    Wetnurseykin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭Wetnurseykin


    Most of the comments already posted are unresearched opinion based it would appear on both hearsay & prejudice in equal measure. The divers perhaps should not have dived given the wave action at the mouth of the bay. They tried to dive in the middle of the bay, but were sucked rapidly out of the bay underwater by what was an ebbing spring tide in combination with the wave action. They surfaced immediately and got into surface survival mode, dropping weight belts and with some effort grouping together. They were soon drifting North once the tide began filling at a moderate pace. They could not be seen by the boatman because they were outside the wave front and in relatively calmer (but swelly) water and totally out of danger at that time. They hoped that some people walking on the cliffs might spot their plight and they waved to them, but without a response. The boatman remained unaware of their problem and even told a radio query from the local subaqua club that all was well. Eventually two of them attempted to reach the shore to raise the alarm, but could not manage with the heavy wave action. Fortunately, someone alerted the Kilkee Rescue Service, who launched and began a search as well as calling in the Coastguard helicopter and a Casa fisheries plane. They were spotted and picked up- 2 by the chopper, the remainder by the Rescue boat and their own one too.

    They survived partly through the survival procedure, lack of panic and the efforts of many people, who breathed a great sigh of relief at the satisfactory termination of the search and rescue. People now venting their anger at rumour and inaccurate claims, should take a strong infusion of relaxant and cool down. Learn from the experience- anger is of no use in the sea.


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    #11
    whosedaddy?
    Registered Users Posts: 922 ✭✭✭whosedaddy?


    Interesting 1st post Wetnurseykin.
    Is it far fetched to think you're from Athlone?

    You are right - they shouldn't have dived in those conditions with minors on board. It was a mistake - end of.

    Everything else - how well be behaved once they got into trouble is irrelevant. Sure it may have reduced the fallout from the incident.
    But it was their own reckless behavior that got them into the situation and also endangered the rescuers.
    The experience divers should have known better. If they didn't, they should have asked the locals. OR if they did, followed their advise.

    Btw. if they are that good to stay calm, group up etc... have they had such situations before and they are well trained in them???? If they are that good, why did they go diving....


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    #12
    annR
    Registered Users Posts: 319 ✭✭annR


    They survived partly through the survival procedure, lack of panic and the efforts of many people, who breathed a great sigh of relief at the satisfactory termination of the search and rescue.

    I absolutely commend any diver who, finding themselves in a situation like this, doesn't panic and does the best thing to survive. Unless we've been there we don't know that we would have the presence of mind to do the same. And survive they did so fair play, I'm sure they have more than learnt their lesson as to what went wrong that day. Let's hope so, and only they know what did go wrong and what that lesson is.

    Wetnurseykin you talk about survival procedure and seem to know what they did. Did they have any emergency equipment like an sausage or beacon? And I don't mean one of those little sausages on a reel I mean a big emergency one.


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    #13
    greened
    Registered Users Posts: 465 ✭✭greened


    If they were so prepared and well briefed in emergency situation why did they not

    a) have a surface marker bouy deployed during the dive so the boat would know their underwater location
    b) have an emergency Marker Boy,
    c) have an emergency air horn which they could signal the boat with (a simple €50 piece of kit)

    In an emergency situation it right to drop your weight but you should never drop your weight belt. The belt should be retained as it can be used to a) tie you to a buddy to keep together when getting tierd
    b) used to tie all inflated SMB's in the group together to for a boyant "raft" which can be held onto to conserve energy.


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    #14
    Thoie
    Registered Users Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    Wetnurseykin wrote: »
    The divers perhaps should not have dived given the wave action at the mouth of the bay. They tried to dive in the middle of the bay, but were sucked rapidly out of the bay underwater by what was an ebbing spring tide in combination with the wave action.

    Sorry, I'm not a diver, but any eejit could have told them that we get spring/neap tides around the equinoxes, and that in many places an ebbing spring tide will have a strong undertow. I would expect divers to be aware of this, and tailor their activities accordingly. Add in a large swell, and I would be asking the dive leader some serious questions about their decision making.


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    #15
    okioffice84
    Registered Users Posts: 273 ✭✭okioffice84


    I agree


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    #16
    Wetnurseykin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭Wetnurseykin


    The Athlone Divers involved in the recent incident may have indeed had surface marker buoys- most divers have them nowadays. But they would not have been seen by the boatman because of the line of large waves at the mouth of the bay- they were whooshed out and had surfaced outside after six minutes. The conditions were unusual and in more than a generation involved with this sport here, I have seen it happen only once to divers in conditions of less wave action, but ebbing springs. On that occasion also the dive boat could not see or hear the divers and could not figure out where they were. A chance sighting by another lead to their recovery. I have never heard anyone mention such an experience in Kilkee since that time fifteen or more years back of all the divers I have chatted to over the years.

    The sound device would not be heard in the wave conditions mentioned either. I think the incident could not have been predicted and Athlone are used to diving here in marginal conditions as the Bay is generally reckoned to be safe. This particular incident with no losses incurred apart from perhaps red faces, should serve as a warning to future divers in marginal conditions and may be helpful. The rescue service boat crew performed very well as did all, who came to assist from all organisations. By the way Athlone Subaqua Club were always be ready to assist others in difficulty here over their many years coming to Kilkee and its nice that the compliment was returned to them in their emergency.

    Years ago there was an old slogan about diving that went as follows:- "There are old divers and bold divers, but there are no old, bold divers." With that I'll lay my jaw to rest and I wish others might consider doing the same.


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    #17
    fmcc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 225 ✭✭fmcc


    I know everyone is glad they all came out ok which is the main thing at the end of the day. As to whether they should have dived that day I don;t know kilkee but i know relativly safe places here iin sligo where the dive was cancelled due to weather. At this stage we often cancel a dive beacuse we know its gonna be crapolavis etc if the weather is bad. We are lucky as the dive spot is on our doorstep only a half hour away for most so not much time lost if no dive on. I guess if a club like Athlone has travelled a long ditance the temptation is going to be greater to get a dive in after a long journey etc but am only supposing here.
    Loctite I think in the past a dive officer from a club was brought to court where a diver had died cant remember the case exactly but it did put the fear of god into DOs around the country. I can remember he was exonerated but bear in mind club DOs are there to try and pass on a love of diving and do not reciev any remuneration. It would imho be a serious kick in the pants to be prosecuted for being a volunteer. All that being said a volunteer in that position should be qualified to carry out the job and adhere to best practice.


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    #18
    loctite
    Registered Users Posts: 589 ✭✭✭loctite


    Wetnurseykin wrote: »

    "There are old divers and bold divers, but there are no old, bold divers." With that I'll lay my jaw to rest and I wish others might consider doing the same.

    Not a chance.... I wonder why there are no old bold divers.... ??

    My comments are not based on hearsay or conjecture, yes second hand information, but direct from rescue crew members...

    Experience diving in Marginal conditions aka as diving in Dangerous conditions. How pretentious and arrogant of you to dare comment that it was nice to have the compliment returned to you.

    Admit it. Athlone made a monumental error choosing to dive. Put their members at risk, put crew rescue members at risk and such "bold" behaviour should not be tolerated. You are even acknowledging that the conditions were so bad that safety equipment would not work...!?!

    Watch this space... I can guarantee there will be another incident perpetrated by this club before this season is out...I can guarantee it.

    Idiots.. plain idiots....


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    #19
    loctite
    Registered Users Posts: 589 ✭✭✭loctite


    fmcc wrote: »
    I know everyone is glad they all came out ok which is the main thing at the end of the day. As to whether they should have dived that day I don;t know kilkee but i know relativly safe places here iin sligo where the dive was cancelled due to weather. At this stage we often cancel a dive beacuse we know its gonna be crapolavis etc if the weather is bad. We are lucky as the dive spot is on our doorstep only a half hour away for most so not much time lost if no dive on. I guess if a club like Athlone has travelled a long ditance the temptation is going to be greater to get a dive in after a long journey etc but am only supposing here.
    Loctite I think in the past a dive officer from a club was brought to court where a diver had died cant remember the case exactly but it did put the fear of god into DOs around the country. I can remember he was exonerated but bear in mind club DOs are there to try and pass on a love of diving and do not reciev any remuneration. It would imho be a serious kick in the pants to be prosecuted for being a volunteer. All that being said a volunteer in that position should be qualified to carry out the job and adhere to best practice.

    I don't want to keep ranting on about this... but there is no regulation in place for voluntary members/instructors.... This means that they can carry out reckless behaviour with out liability (that would be regulated uder health and safety at work).... I have no doubt that DO's intentions are honourable, but as you mention, the will to dive after travelling a distance should not be any attempt to rationalise the continuing to dive when conditions dictate otherwise.

    BTW, people who work in the dive industry also do so for the love of teaching diving. Anyone who thinks otherwise is seriously misguided. There is no money to be made working as an instructor in Ireland. Unless you enjoy working for minimum wage, and not knowing whether you are going to have an income this week because of weather.

    If anything is is even more commendable that people who work within the diving industry choose not to dive when conditions get so bad....they are effectively turing down there wages.


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    #20
    whosedaddy?
    Registered Users Posts: 922 ✭✭✭whosedaddy?


    Wetnurseykin wrote: »
    The Athlone Divers involved in the recent incident may have indeed had surface marker buoys- ..... But they would not have been seen by the boatman because of the line of large waves at the mouth of the bay ..... The conditions were unusual and in more than a generation involved with this sport here, I have seen it happen only once to divers in conditions of less wave action, but ebbing springs. On that occasion also the dive boat could not see or hear the divers and could not figure out where they were. A chance sighting by another lead to their recovery. I have never heard anyone mention such an experience in Kilkee since that time fifteen or more years back of all the divers I have chatted to over the years.

    By your own account the conditions where unusual....
    I'm sure the waves where that high when the boat left the mourings. They must have known then that the cox wouldn't be able to see the markers - even if the dive had gone to plan but someone got drifted off a bit (didn't find the boat). Any margin of error would have caused a diver to go missing in those conditions...
    Wetnurseykin wrote: »
    The sound device would not be heard in the wave conditions mentioned either. I think the incident could not have been predicted and Athlone are used to diving here in marginal conditions as the Bay is generally reckoned to be safe. This particular incident with no losses incurred apart from perhaps red faces, should serve as a warning to future divers in marginal conditions and may be helpful. The rescue service boat crew performed very well as did all, who came to assist from all organisations. By the way Athlone Subaqua Club were always be ready to assist others in difficulty here over their many years coming to Kilkee and its nice that the compliment was returned to them in their emergency.

    maybe lessens should have been learned from the previous incident.... Tell us was the Athone Diving Club involved in that one - or is that 2nd hand info?

    :confused: Still no sign of admitting they may have been wrong going out in the first place....

    Any commercial dive centre would have told the guests that it would be to dangerous. (just like skiing - when there are known risks - they switch of the lifts). But if you bring your own boat, none of the warnings apply to you...

    But please prove me wrong - how many other dive groups where out in those conditions? clubs / commercial operators?


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    #21
    donnchadhc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 47 ✭donnchadhc


    I'm pretty sure loctite that DO's would be prosecuted under the non-fatal offence against the persons act if something went seriously wrong. Plus there's always the civilian courts (we are the one of the most litigious countries in the world). DO's do carry a large amount of liability, which is why organisations like CFT put in place large amounts of insurance to cover this. Further no-one that I know of in the diving community would ever suggest that diving schools/industry are less capable or have less of a love of diving than someone within a private diving club. If anything else its quite the opposite (how many people would be diving on a calm Feburary day when the air temperature is hovering just above zero? Someone would but I as sure as hell ain't diving with them!). On a last note, I just thank god that everyone involved is okay.


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    #22
    fmcc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 225 ✭✭fmcc


    loctite wrote: »
    .

    BTW, people who work in the dive industry also do so for the love of teaching diving. Anyone who thinks otherwise is seriously misguided. There is no money to be made working as an instructor in Ireland. Unless you enjoy working for minimum wage, and not knowing whether you are going to have an income this week because of weather.

    If anything is is even more commendable that people who work within the diving industry choose not to dive when conditions get so bad....they are effectively turing down there wages.

    Yeah agree with above about people working in the industry doing for the love, not too many dring mercs or meemers in any case. But as donnchad says DOs can and have been held liable and are covered under cft insurance and some go further and get DAN as well.

    Disagree with you donnachad that no one in this sport would say that some diver schools are less capable as their is usually plenty of PADI bashing and comments when a school puts to sea in less than ideal conditions. imho the school is to be commended when they put off a dive as the pressure to dive must be so much greater when travel and payment has been involved. I think as the sport grows a few inland spots will develop if half decent vis can be found.


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    #23
    Golden Arrow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭Golden Arrow


    loctite wrote: »
    Not a chance.... I wonder why there are no old bold divers.... ??

    My comments are not based on hearsay or conjecture, yes second hand information, but direct from rescue crew members...

    Experience diving in Marginal conditions aka as diving in Dangerous conditions. How pretentious and arrogant of you to dare comment that it was nice to have the compliment returned to you.

    Admit it. Athlone made a monumental error choosing to dive. Put their members at risk, put crew rescue members at risk and such "bold" behaviour should not be tolerated. You are even acknowledging that the conditions were so bad that safety equipment would not work...!?!

    Watch this space... I can guarantee there will be another incident perpetrated by this club before this season is out...I can guarantee it.

    Idiots.. plain idiots....


    Your guarantees are not up to much!!!! "Watch this space... I can guarantee there will be another incident perpetrated by this club before this season is out...I can guarantee it."


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    #24
    yankinlk
    Registered Users Posts: 2,731 ✭✭✭yankinlk


    wow, thats digging up an old thread anyway... i was worried there for a second as my club was in kilkee today! let sleeping dog(fish)s lie.


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    #25
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    Thoie wrote: »
    Sorry, I'm not a diver, but any eejit could have told them that we get spring/neap tides around the equinoxes...
    I know I'm replying to an old comment here, but just saw it as someone else dragged up the thread.
    Thoie, if any eejit had told them what you suggested, then they would just have proved what an eejit they were. Springs and neaps are two different things, actually the exact opposite of each other, and they do not happen at the same time, at equinoxes or at any other time. They alternate with each other, one week apart, all through the year.


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    #26
    Peace
    Registered Users Posts: 2,758 ✭✭✭Peace


    I get the feeling this thread has served its purpose ... i'm gonna lock it up. If people want to continue having a go at each other please do so over PM .

    Have a nice day :)


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