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Man found not guilty of murder by reason of insanity

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    #2
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    does this highlight the need to check if vulnerable people suffering from mental ilness are taking their medication on a regular basis? I think he stopped taking his medication previously a couple of weeks before murdering Natalie McGuinness..


    https://www.oceanfm.ie/2017/07/07/man-found-not-guilty-by-reason-of-insanity-of-murder-of-natalie-mcguinness/
    The irony is that in the good old days he would have been locked up in st Columbus as a teenager due to his illness and never allowed out to cause such a death.


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    #3
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,292 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    How could possibly effectively monitor them unless you are either taking daily blood tests which are immediately run, or have them in some of institution where they can be monitored?
    So... if someone is on meds, the effect of which is that without them, they are likely to murder someone, they really need to be in an institution and not at liberty...

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #4
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,746 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    The irony is that in the good old days he would have been locked up in st Columbus as a teenager due to his illness and never allowed out to cause such a death.

    although this would shock an awful lot of people (the ones that say we are better these days that we no longer lock up people with mental illnesses) I do think you have a point


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    #5
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,746 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    How could possibly effectively monitor them unless you are either taking daily blood tests which are immediately run, or have them in some of institution where they can be monitored?
    So... if someone is on meds, the effect of which is that without them, they are likely to murder someone, they really need to be in an institution and not at liberty...

    I really dont know - be on the register and be made check in regularly with the local doctors maybe?? - weekly if needs be?


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    #6
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,746 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    is it really enough for the doc's to say "heres your medication, now make sure you take it and DONT COME OFF IT" and then not keep tabs?


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    #7
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Could they have an implant like the contraceptive one that slowly releases schizo meds over a few months?


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    #8
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,292 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    is it really enough for the doc's to say "heres your medication, now make sure you take it and DONT COME OFF IT" and then not keep tabs?

    No, of course it isn't... the doc should be held professionally negligent and sued for loss. That's about the only thing that would get some real change... but I don't see any 100% reliable solution except putting people into an institution.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #9
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,292 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Could they have an implant like the contraceptive one that slowly releases schizo meds over a few months?

    I think you would have to have monitored daily injections... for comparison - people on bail have to sign on daily at a Garda station instead of being locked up on remand. But then, what if they're not there for their injection? Garda equivalent of an APB?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #10
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Could they have an implant like the contraceptive one that slowly releases schizo meds over a few months?

    Yip, glock do them


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    #11
    notsoyoungwan
    Registered Users Posts: 614 ✭✭✭notsoyoungwan


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    is it really enough for the doc's to say "heres your medication, now make sure you take it and DONT COME OFF IT" and then not keep tabs?

    It's more likely the guy was given follow-up appointments but didn't attend them than someone with a serious illness was discharged with no follow-up


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    #12
    notsoyoungwan
    Registered Users Posts: 614 ✭✭✭notsoyoungwan


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Could they have an implant like the contraceptive one that slowly releases schizo meds over a few months?

    There are long-acting depot anti-psychotic injections available
    ("Schizo meds"? Really?)


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    #13
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Plenty of misfortuneate people dealing with their mental illness day in day out best as they can manage

    Few (maybe like her man in the OP ) know exactly what they're at


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    #14
    Stigura
    Registered Users Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭Stigura


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Schizo meds

    Schitzist! Schitzophobia! :mad:


    Seriously though; I'm on med's. I blew into town, the other day, having simply forgot to take my pill. And was an embarrassment to myself :o Constantly feeling the need to apologise to people, for my own behaviour. Pointing out 'I'm off my med's. Sorry!'

    Fortunately? I don't tend to kill anyone. I just get a bit more jabbery.


    Signing in? Pul Eeease! Though, saying that? I only go to town once a week. If it could be an in and out experience? I'd nip in some door. Sitting around, waiting for some GP to find time for me? FRO!!!


    An inserted bomb, which would drip feed my med's, as prescribed? Fantastic! Yes, please!


    Have anything to do with an actual Schitzo?!? FRO! Those f**kers scare me to death! " You're Sure ye won't have a sandwich? " :D


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    #15
    marcus001
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭marcus001


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    No, of course it isn't... the doc should be held professionally negligent and sued for loss. That's about the only thing that would get some real change... but I don't see any 100% reliable solution except putting people into an institution.

    Making psych doctors liable for the actions of their mentally ill and unpredictable patients would just cause their insurance to skyrocket and with it the cost of mental health treatment.


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    #16
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,746 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    thankfully its not a regular occurrence (voices in head saying to kill someone ... and it actually being carried out!) but those voices are strong and seem very real to the person (and chips away at them) , even more if they stop taking the meds , or on the wrong meds or not taking the right dose.

    - Does seem a bit like a russian roulette situation to let 'patients' to decide whether they 'want' to take their meds or not or 'rely' on them to take the dose... and to also let them stop taking the meds, without really anyone to (not force) but encourage them to take them regularly


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    #17
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,746 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    marcus001 wrote: »
    Making psych doctors liable for the actions of their mentally ill and unpredictable patients would just cause their insurance to skyrocket and with it the cost of mental health treatment.

    yep and I suppose it would be like if a DIY shop sold a stanley knife and someone used it to kill or maim someone you wouldnt hold the DIY shop or person who sold the knife to account


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    #18
    Madagascan
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭Madagascan


    I see it says he was being weaning off his medicine.
    Yes they will try to reduce your dose when it seems suitable.
    My ex Wife and her sister suffer from mental illness.
    I have seen the results of this weaning.
    At times not nice.


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    #19
    Jesus Wept
    Registered Users Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    although this would shock an awful lot of people (the ones that say we are better these days that we no longer lock up people with mental illnesses) I do think you have a point
    judeboy101 wrote: »
    The irony is that in the good old days he would have been locked up in st Columbus as a teenager due to his illness and never allowed out to cause such a death.

    Time to get back to the good old days eh.

    original.jpg


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    #20
    Ralf and Florian
    Site Banned Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭Ralf and Florian


    gctest50 wrote: »
    Yip, glock do them

    Care to elaborate?


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    #21
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,292 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    marcus001 wrote: »
    Making psych doctors liable for the actions of their mentally ill and unpredictable patients would just cause their insurance to skyrocket and with it the cost of mental health treatment.

    Well this psych doctor did a great job? Maybe they'd be a bit less blase about their patients...
    If a doctor should have committed a patient but did not, they are professionally culpable for what follows... just as if they failed to operate on a patient who died and had clinical signs of appendicitis. Or certified someone as fit to operate a vehicle, or own a shotgun - who was not.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #22
    Wesser
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭Wesser


    There is already, in place, a networtk of community psychiatric nurses throughout the country, who do home visits and check on those who have psychotic illnesses and administer injections etc.
    They are able to observe the subtle and sometimes not so subtle signs of deterioration.

    They are an extremely skilled and resourceful team.

    However often there caseload is too much and due to lack of creation of more posts by the hse and recruitment and retention in to said posts.


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    #23
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,746 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Madagascan wrote: »
    I see it says he was being weaning off his medicine.
    Yes they will try to reduce your dose when it seems suitable.
    My ex Wife and her sister suffer from mental illness.
    I have seen the results of this weaning.
    At times not nice.

    Thought I read somewhere that he had stopped taking his meds a couple of weeks before himself ... maybe I got it wrong

    EDIT: reading this RTE News article it does sound like he came off the meds himself:

    "The court heard he had stopped taking anti-psychotic medication in the months before the killing and his family had become concerned about him"

    "He was seen by an outpatient services in September 2015 and it was noted he had stopped taking his medication. This was six weeks before he strangled Ms McGuinness"

    "He thought he was in 'the matrix' and had to kill Natalie to help her escape. He said he was sceptical of medication because when he was on it he thought he had to kill his family"

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0706/888261-oisin-conroy-court/


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