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Landlord insurance-HAP

  • 17-09-2019 11:58am
    #1
    Olaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33 ✭


    Hi,
    My home insurance provider won't cover the property when it's under HAP. Am I allowed to name them?
    Can anyone recommend a provider that will offer cover please? By PM maybe.
    Thanks.


Comments

  • #2
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,782 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Olaz wrote: »
    Hi,
    My home insurance provider won't cover the property when it's under HAP. Am I allowed to make them?
    Can anyone recommend a provider that will offer cover please? By PM maybe.
    Thanks.

    Never herd of this.
    My insurance company didn't even ask the nature of rent paid, surely its discrimination?


  • #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Olaz wrote: »
    Hi,
    My home insurance provider won't cover the property when it's under HAP. Am I allowed to make them?
    Can anyone recommend a provider that will offer cover please? By PM maybe.
    Thanks.

    That is astonishing. Why, and who? That would be an interesting case for the wrc, you were refused cover because of renting to HAP tenants.


  • #4
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,649 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Something sounds odd. Where did they ask ? Is it actually landlord insurance


  • #5
    Olaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33 ✭Olaz


    The girl I spoke to put me on hold to check with her supervisor. I have my car insurance and own home insurance with the same company.
    No reason given, just said that they don't offer insurance for HAP. I've asked for a statement to that effect in writing.


  • #6
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,649 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Olaz wrote: »
    The girl I spoke to put me on hold to check with her supervisor. I have my car insurance and own home insurance with the same company.
    No reason given, just said that they don't offer insurance for HAP. I've asked for a statement to that effect in writing.

    But you are not insuring for HAP. You just want landlords insurance, how did HAP even come into the conversation?


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  • #7
    Olaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33 ✭Olaz


    ted1 wrote: »
    Something sounds odd. Where did they ask ? Is it actually landlord insurance

    They know the property is rented out and it states that on the quote sent out (twice the price of my private home insurance with the same company for that reason). I could have renewed online and the HAP issue wouldn't have come up I suppose, but I had a query so she went through all the particulars again on the phone. She asked if it was privately rented. Then asked if the tenant pays the rent directly to me, or through the council.


  • #8
    Olaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33 ✭Olaz


    ted1 wrote: »
    But you are not insuring for HAP. You just want landlords insurance, how did HAP even come into the conversation?

    Is landlords insurance different from insurance for a rented property-genuine question.


  • #9
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,782 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Can you name the insurer?

    I used Chrome Insurance (Broker) and the policy is through Zurich.
    I have HAP Tenants.


  • #10
    Grumpypants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,919 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    I got a new quote online last week and one question was on the form, Is the house rented to social welfare? It was just a yes-no answers. I put in both and it changed nothing in the price. So I guess it might just be data collecting.

    490841.PNG


  • #11
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,649 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Olaz wrote: »
    Is landlords insurance different from insurance for a rented property-genuine question.

    TBH Not sure, landlords insurance covers the property and 3rd party liability.

    I’ve nevdr heard of renter property insurance, unless that’s what tenants insurance is.


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  • #12
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,997 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    kceire wrote: »
    My insurance company didn't even ask the nature of rent paid, surely its discrimination?

    Might be worth telling the insurance provider to check with their legal team. A actuary might start using HAP as a datapoint but that doesn't mean its legal to do so.


  • #13
    Olaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33 ✭Olaz


    kceire wrote: »
    Can you name the insurer?

    I used Chrome Insurance (Broker) and the policy is through Zurich.
    I have HAP Tenants.

    Aviva


  • #14
    Grumpypants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,919 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    I don't think Aviva Ireland do landlord insurance here, just in the UK. It sounds like crossed wires. She could have asked the manager if we do landlord insurance for HAP, and the manager prob said no, as in they don't do landlord insurance.


  • #15
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,268 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    It'd seem as valid a data-point to use for actuary as gender / age or occupation on a car insurance contract. Can't see why it would be illegal tbh.


  • #16
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    Occupancy of a rented property is an underwriting factor for insurers. There will be different rates and criteria for occupancy such as couples, students, multi-tenanted etc. Landlords here will know the difference in experience between having those groups in their property

    As this is not a compulsory insurance required by the State and because the refusal is not based on race, sex, colour etc., I doubt there are grounds to appeal the decision


  • #17
    Olaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33 ✭Olaz


    Grumpypants wrote: »
    I don't think Aviva Ireland do landlord insurance here, just in the UK. It sounds like crossed wires. She could have asked the manager if we do landlord insurance for HAP, and the manager prob said no, as in they don't do landlord insurance.

    I've clarified with Aviva. They advised they do offer landlords insurance but not to cover HAP tenants


  • #18
    Olaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33 ✭Olaz


    kceire wrote: »
    Can you name the insurer?

    I used Chrome Insurance (Broker) and the policy is through Zurich.
    I have HAP Tenants.

    I'll give Chrome a call. Thank you


  • #19
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,997 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Sleepy wrote: »
    It'd seem as valid a data-point to use for actuary as gender / age or occupation on a car insurance contract. Can't see why it would be illegal tbh.

    Because they wrote into the discrimination laws that you can't differentiate between private and public tenants in relation to lettings.


  • #20
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,268 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    A landlord can't. No reason at all that someone offering insurance to landlords can't discriminate based on the profile of the tenant(s) occupying a property they're trying to get landlord's insurance for.


  • #21
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,997 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Sleepy wrote: »
    A landlord can't. No reason at all that someone offering insurance to landlords can't discriminate based on the profile of the tenant(s) occupying a property they're trying to get landlord's insurance for.

    You can't be discriminated against in relation to the provision of accommodation. By using it as a data-point and charging more, its discrimination in relation to the provision of accommodation.


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  • #22
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,649 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Sleepy wrote: »
    It'd seem as valid a data-point to use for actuary as gender / age or occupation on a car insurance contract. Can't see why it would be illegal tbh.

    Gender is illegal in insurance for the past number of years.


  • #23
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,649 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Olaz wrote: »
    I'll give Chrome a call. Thank you

    I use axa


  • #24
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    You can't be discriminated against in relation to the provision of accommodation. By using it as a data-point and charging more, its discrimination in relation to the provision of accommodation.

    It may be discrimination in relation to the provision of accommodation but not the provision of insurance for such groups


  • #25
    Grumpypants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,919 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    Olaz wrote: »
    I've clarified with Aviva. They advised they do offer landlords insurance but not to cover HAP tenants

    Surprising they would say that, It is pretty illegal for a landlord to discriminate but if they can't get insurance then they are really backed into a corner.

    Anyway try the AA, I got mine for €220 with the €60 online discount.


  • #26
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,268 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    You can't be discriminated against in relation to the provision of accommodation. By using it as a data-point and charging more, its discrimination in relation to the provision of accommodation.
    But they're not providing accommodation. They're providing insurance to landlords.

    They may be in breach of the "spirit" of the law but you can bet the farm they're operating inside the letter of it in this regard.


  • #27
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Actually insurance companies can't refuse cover at all. They have to give you a quote believe it or not. You just have to push the rep as they are basically restricted by the standard policies in the system. They choose not to create a quote as standard but they can't refuse to quote you.
    They are meant to go to an actuary to give a quote but often just quote a ridiculous number to get rid of the potential customer. Now under GDPR you can ask to see the correspondence for the quote which should mean you can prove they didn't go to the actuary now.


  • #28
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,782 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    I’ve asked them on Twitter. Let’s see if they respond.


  • #29
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Dav010 wrote: »
    That is astonishing. Why, and who? That would be an interesting case for the wrc, you were refused cover because of renting to HAP tenants.

    Does the WRC cover business to business issues? I know that they threw tenants disputes into it, but b2b is different to b2c in nearly all legislation.


  • #30
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    Actually insurance companies can't refuse cover at all. They have to give you a quote believe it or not..

    Nonsense, they don't have to offer quotations. The exception is motor insurance (because it is a compulsory cover in the state) providing they have a licence to transact that cover


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  • #31
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,782 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Reps on Twitter asking for contact details to discuss this.
    OP do you want me to give them your name and number?

    If so, please PM me.


  • #32
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    kceire wrote: »
    Never herd of this.
    My insurance company didn't even ask the nature of rent paid, surely its discrimination?

    I posted this year years ago but cant find it now. Its down to risk


  • #33
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103407535

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103486452&postcount=13


  • #34
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,964 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    I be inclined to take this to the insurance ombudsman. However they only deal with personal insurances. However Insurance company could be on dodgy ground. Not quoting for a sectional group would be discrimination. .I contact the equal rights commission. It would be an interesting case landlord not allowed to discriminate but an insurance company can put in a discriminatory question

    Slava Ukrainii



  • #35
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    It's not discrimination, it's a commercial decision made by insurers and one which they are under no obligation to justify. Are they refusing to quote on race, nationality, age, sex, creed?

    I could list 100's of examples of where insurers identify sectors where they either want to attract business or ones which they wish to avoid


  • #36
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    Eggs For Dinner wrote: »
    It's not discrimination, it's a commercial decision made by insurers and one which they are under no obligation to justify. Are they refusing to quote on race, nationality, age, sex, creed?

    I could list 100's of examples of where insurers identify sectors where they either want to attract business or ones which they wish to avoid

    In their wisdom the government have made it an offence to discriminate against hap.


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  • #37
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    godtabh wrote: »
    In their wisdom the government have made it an offence to discriminate against hap.

    But not the provision of non-compulsory services to landlords bound by that legislation


  • #38
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    I can confirm Chill and FBD do not provide Landlord insurance for landlords unless they are paid directly by the tenant. Don't know about other companies. The risk associated with tenants other than private sector tenants, is just too unacceptable from an underwriting perspective.


  • #39
    banie01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,932 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Be very very interesting to see what the ODPC makes of collecting data on the source of the rent paid by tenants in discharge of their cotractual obligation.
    Would also be curious to see what basis in law the insurer could present for refusing cover.


  • #40
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    I can confirm Chill and FBD do not provide Landlord insurance for landlords unless they are paid directly by the tenant. Don't know about other companies. The risk associated with tenants other than private sector tenants, is just too unacceptable from an underwriting perspective.

    Tenants cant insure landlords possessions as there is no insurable interest. It would be surely a legitimate reason to refuse HAP.


  • #41
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    godtabh wrote: »
    Tenants cant insure landlords possessions as there is no insurable interest. It would be surely a legitimate reason to refuse HAP.

    Its Landlord's insurance- not tenants insurance. Typically it involves accidental or deliberate building damage by the tenants- alongside cover for the landlord's kitout in the building. There are specific issues with building damage in an Irish context- FBD will provide landlord insurance other than deliberate damage- but not with HAP/RAS/Social Welfare Tenants (they refuse to offer cover on the basis of tenant type). Chill won't quote. Most landlords at this stage just go with building cover and ignore landlord cover altogether, if there is a risk that they'll end up with a HAP tenant, as its a complete waste of time trying to get coverage otherwise.


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  • #42
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    banie01 wrote: »
    Be very very interesting to see what the ODPC makes of collecting data on the source of the rent paid by tenants in discharge of their cotractual obligation.
    Would also be curious to see what basis in law the insurer could present for refusing cover.

    An insurance company is a private company providing a service on a commercial basis. If they are unable to quantify the risk associated with providing cover to anyone- they can simply decline to cover (as most do)- or alternatively they can add a loading to a policy.

    This is legitimate- it is the prerogative of an insurance company whether or not to do business with any prospective customer- and under what terms.

    A landlord does not have a commensurate prerogative to act as a commercial entity- he/she has artificial strictures on their ability to act in a purely commercial manner (I'm not saying rightly or wrongly- simply that they do not have the ability/right to operate on a purely commercial basis- whereas an insurance company does).

    In practice this means that a majority of landlords who have HAP tenants- are forced to accept a lower level of insurance cover (or indeed, no insurance cover at all) from an insurnace company or an underwriter- than they would do- if they had a tenant other than a HAP tenant.

    Its perfectly legal to discriminate against landlords- just not tenants.

    Its yet another reason why landlords don't like the HAP scheme- and the manner in which its setup (esp. where payments stop altogether if a tenant declines to pay their portion of the rent to the local authority, despite the fact that this is not an insurable risk (in an Irish context).

    I'm not going to comment or offer an opinion on intentional damage to units- other than observe that insurance companies have quantified the risk associated with different tenant types, and specifically decline to offer cover on this basis. Tough luck on landlords- its moot from a tenant's perspective.


  • #43
    Olaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33 ✭Olaz


    kceire wrote: »
    Reps on Twitter asking for contact details to discuss this.
    OP do you want me to give them your name and number?

    If so, please PM me.

    Thanks kceire but I don't particularly want to discuss it with Aviva to be honest. Cowardly response on Twitter by them though. I'll vote with my money when I need my own home and motor policies renewed next. Not that they'll care!

    I really just wanted to find a company who would insure the property which I have done now, at half the price Aviva charged last year, through Chrome Insurance as recommended earlier in this thread.

    Thanks all for your input. I hope this thread is of some use to other HAP landlords in the future.


  • #44
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,782 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Olaz wrote: »
    Thanks kceire but I don't particularly want to discuss it with Aviva to be honest. Cowardly response on Twitter by them though. I'll vote with my money when I need my own home and motor policies renewed next. Not that they'll care!

    I really just wanted to find a company who would insure the property which I have done now, at half the price Aviva charged last year, through Chrome Insurance as recommended earlier in this thread.

    Thanks all for your input. I hope this thread is of some use to other HAP landlords in the future.

    No problem. I recommended Chrome. I’m
    With them myself too. Glad you got sorted.


  • #45
    Old diesel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    godtabh wrote: »
    The_Conductor wrote: »
    I can confirm Chill and FBD do not provide Landlord insurance for landlords unless they are paid directly by the tenant. Don't know about other companies. The risk associated with tenants other than private sector tenants, is just too unacceptable from an underwriting perspective.

    Tenants cant insure landlords possessions as there is no insurable interest. It would be surely a legitimate reason to refuse HAP.

    It's only a legitimate reason if no insurer AT ALL will insure .

    If you are a landlord and you know that you "can't turn down HAP" then you insure your property with a crowd that will insure HAP.

    Clearly if no one insures for HAP then this is something you would then need to take up with politicians and others with influence .

    Edit - I suspect that "paid directly by the tenant" might mean the tenant paying the rent themselves rather then the tenant paying for the insurance.


  • #46
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,782 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Response from Aviva


  • #47
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,997 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    kceire wrote: »
    Response from Aviva

    Going to be honest with you, that went as far as the twenty year old marketing person who manages the twitter account.


  • #48
    um7y1h83ge06nx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭um7y1h83ge06nx


    From a business perspective it is a raw deal for landlords - you cannot discriminate against HAP tenants yet by taking on HAP tenants you are limiting your insurance options which may result in higher premiums and having difficulties getting insurance at all.

    Landlords do not have the power of the insurance industry or political backing that tenants have resulting in situations like these. Yet, the narrative being spun by the media is that landlords are the bad guys.


  • #49
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,782 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    Going to be honest with you, that went as far as the twenty year old marketing person who manages the twitter account.

    I don't think they are even 20 until next year :D


  • #50
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    kceire wrote: »
    Response from Aviva

    That tweet they would not rule our insuring a person in receipt of hap. It doesnt say anything about a landlord letting to a hap tenant


  • #51
    Old diesel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    godtabh wrote: »
    kceire wrote: »
    Response from Aviva

    That tweet they would not rule our insuring a person in receipt of hap. It doesnt say anything about a landlord letting to a hap tenant

    I think they mean the landlord being in receipt of HAP as in the council/HAP are paying him.

    Poorly written though


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