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We dont really sell many guns these days, except for the odd special order, and when we get one of those, its always a spring downgrade. However......
I'm going to play Devils advocate here and just mention a few things most of you not in the business may not know or may have overlooked....or might just be conveniently ignoring.
a) TIME: If you're receiving an order of 400 or 500 guns you aren't going to downgrade them by spring. It takes too long, and its not feasible. This is a fact. Its not an excuse, its a cold hard fact. I dont wish to offend any other retailers out there, but I'm not going to sugar coat this or say one thing in public and another in private. The horrible truth is that if you're downgrading every gun you sell by the spring change method, then you're selling **** all guns. Sorry, but thats how it is.
b) LEGALITY: There seems to be an impression out there that if you're a retailer, you're allowed import plus 1 joule guns, and downgrade them before selling. You're not.
Even when ( or if ) the licensing system is introduced, there is no provision within that for a retailer to import an overpowered RIF and downgrade it - its against the law now, and will be for the foreseeable future. So, I'm not saying its always the case, but I know for a fact a lot of the time, the drilling is done outside of Ireland before importation in order to ensure the shipment gets through customs. If you dropped €30,000 on a shipment of guns, would you risk them being seized at Dublin Port and you losing your investment ? I dont care how much you love airsoft, or how altruistic you are, you arent going to take that risk.
c) COST: A spring might only cost a few euro, but the tech opening up the gearbox has to be paid. VAT has to be paid for the spring. PRSI has to be paid for the tech. State contributory pension has to be paid for the tech. Lighting and heat has to be paid for the workspace the tech is using. Rates have to be paid for the premises the tech is working in. This is Ireland, and if you follow all the rules, its very expensive to do business.
d) THE "GREY" ECONOMY: This is never discussed on Boards, but everyone knows it goes on. Or at least everyone with an ounce of cop-on and common sense does. Of all the retailers in this country ( About 23 or 24 now ? ) a large number of them aren't legit. And by that I mean they aren't paying VAT, rates, employee tax and pension contributions, public liability insurance or a whole host of other obligatory costs. Now, I know the above is going to piss off some people, and I'll be asked if I have any proof of it.
Well, I'm not going to name names, but the proof is there for anyone to see who knows anything about business or generally is able to rub a few brain cells together to produce a train of thought. I know how much a gun and parts cost at wholesale, and there is only a difference of a few dollars at most between the various Asian suppliers and wholesalers - certainly not enough to allow someone sell a gun at a ridiculously low price and make a profit. And its very hard for those who do pay taxes and associated costs to compete with them. In fact its becoming impossible.
Theres also a large number of guys out there who fix guns as a hobby, and charge for it. I'm not saying they shouldnt, or that its wrong (in fact I've often thrown people some guns to repair in return for store credit or cash in hand when we were overwhelmed, and I dont have a problem with it). But these people dont have anywhere near the costs associated with doing repairs or downgrades as a registered business, so its very easy for them to (perhaps unwittingly) adopt a holier than thou attitude.
e) PHYSICS: Now this one will really annoy the purists
Theres only one retailer in this country who has sold more airsoft guns than me over the last last five years...maybe two. I have sold THOUSANDS of airsoft guns. Literally thousands. In the early days, there was nothing sure and certain about importing RIFS - it was a very risky endeavour, so as a matter of LEGAL NECCESSITY, downgrading was most often done outside of Ireland, by drilling the nozzle (in my case anyway).
I see this argument pop up every few months, and the same old horror stories are dredged up. Heres the real scoop folks - Downgrading a gun by drilling the nozzle or cylinder is not ideal by any means, but it does not cause as many problems as people would have you believe, if its done correctly. Now, before anyone runs off to Woodies to buy a length of rope to throw over a nearby lamppost and invite me to try on a new necktie, let me clarify that. Drilling can cause problems. I've seen it cause problems. But of the many, many guns we've sold, a very minor percentage indeed have come back with the problems you hear about in these kinds of threads. And if you have an ounce of common sense or customer service awareness, you fix the problem, apologise and move on.
f) DECEIT: Again, not going to name names, but there are retailers out there who lie about how they downgrade guns. I've long since stopped getting upset about it, but I've seen the physical evidence with my own eyes. Sometimes unfortunately, people who live in glass houses throw stones when they shouldn't, in order to talk themselves up, or a competitor down.
I'm not trying to piss anyone off here, but really, people need to realise a few things. No matter how much you love the game, you need to accept that in order for airsoft to succeed in Ireland as a business model, compromises need to be made. Most guns made are made to be 1.2j to 1.7j - the Irish market is blip on the radar of world airsoft. Very few manufacturers make guns to be less than 1 joule unless their country of origin has a legal requirement for them to do so, therefore it will always, always, always be more expensive for an Irish retailer to source stock, and remain legal, no matter which method of downgrading they choose.
Some of the above points are not entirely relevant to this discussion on their own, but they all play a part in how airsoft is run as a business in this country, and they all need to be taken into account when you look at the whole downgrading issue.
So, to sum up for those of you who couldnt be bothered reading this far - Downgrading by any method other than changing the spring is not ideal, but its the only cost effective way to sell large volumes of airsoft guns in this country and stay legit, and alternative methods are nowhere near as damaging as you might think or hear. You'll always hear about the 5 or 10 people who had a badly drilled gun that developed problems, but you never hear about the other two or three hundred whose gun works just fine with a drilled nozzle or cylinder.
I didn't post this in order to start a fight, or discount any of the valid points made by previous posters because indeed there are valid points on the other side of this argument, I posted it just to perhaps give you pause for thought. There are a lot of factors that need to be considered in this discussion that I think are being overlooked. There may even (shock, horror !) be people posting with an agenda.
Now....I think I'll go find a bunker to hide in !0 -
Now....I think I'll go find a bunker to hide in !
* Throws flashbang into bunker, somersaults in after it, unleashes the noice...a) TIME: If you're receiving an order of 400 or 500 guns you aren't going to downgrade them by spring. It takes too long, and its not feasible.
True, very true, as I said. It would be hard to look at the pallets and say 'c'mon lads lets open every one of these suckers up'. Saying that, anyone who orders a volume like this should at this stage have the sway with the manufacturer to produce 1 joule at factory. (I know this isnt feasible at all times)b) LEGALITY: There seems to be an impression out there that if you're a retailer, you're allowed import plus 1 joule guns, and downgrade them before selling. You're not.
Very very true, we've taken to sending our springs out to VFC to make 100% certain AEGs are legal. As a small retailer, it'd be curtains to lose a couple of grands worth.c) COST: A spring might only cost a few euro, but the tech opening up the gearbox has to be paid. VAT has to be paid for the spring. PRSI has to be paid for the tech. State contributory pension has to be paid for the tech. Lighting and heat has to be paid for the workspace the tech is using. Rates have to be paid for the premises the tech is working in. This is Ireland, and if you follow all the rules, its very expensive to do business.
You can sing that brother.d) THE "GREY" ECONOMY: This is never discussed on Boards, but everyone knows it goes on. Or at least everyone with an ounce of cop-on and common sense does. Of all the retailers in this country ( About 23 or 24 now ? ) a large number of them aren't legit. And by that I mean they aren't paying VAT, rates, employee tax and pension contributions, public liability insurance or a whole host of other obligatory costs.
Perhaps this is something the IAA can 'look into' as part of the affiliation process to promote 'fair trade' in the sector and to help those businesses who do things by the book. But you know yourself, if someone is offering stuff at too good to be true prices, then its...e) PHYSICS:
I'm not even going to touch this one Tony :pac: I'll just say that I hope the practice of 'venting' continues for many years yet, i'll have kids to feed and educate someday
people need to realise a few things. No matter how much you love the game, you need to accept that in order for airsoft to succeed in Ireland as a business model, compromises need to be made. Most guns made are made to be 1.2j to 1.7j - the Irish market is blip on the radar of world airsoft. Very few manufacturers make guns to be less than 1 joule unless their country of origin has a legal requirement for them to do so, therefore it will always, always, always be more expensive for an Irish retailer to source stock, and remain legal, no matter which method of downgrading they choose.
The inherent problem in Ireland is a fear of being ripped-off. When a guy goes on Redwolf or Ehobby and sees an AEG for say $500 he says to himself, ah that's E360, thats grand. He calls an Irish Retailer and asks for a quote, retailer says, E550, guy says 'f**k off you robbing b*st*rd'.
The list of costs is too long too list if your business is legit but guys are still allergic to giving their retailer a 10-15% premium and are still going off, ordering abroad and running the custom's gauntlet.
Newsflash - Other Irish Retailers need to make a few quid to stay in business, in the large they're not trying to screw you, they're trying to survive whilst doing things legitimately.
If the Irish Airsoft Community doesnt support Irish Retailers then you're going to end up with 1, maybe 2 retailers left when the importation ban is enforced. That'll be fun 0 -
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The inherent problem in Ireland is a fear of being ripped-off. When a guy goes on Redwolf or Ehobby and sees an AEG for say $500 he says to himself, ah that's E360, thats grand. He calls an Irish Retailer and asks for a quote, retailer says, E550, guy says 'f**k off you robbing b*st*rd'.
The list of costs is too long too list if your business is legit but guys are still allergic to giving their retailer a 10-15% premium and are still going off, ordering abroad and running the custom's gauntlet.
Newsflash - Other Irish Retailers need to make a few quid to stay in business, in the large they're not trying to screw you, they're trying to survive whilst doing things legitimately.
If the Irish Airsoft Community doesnt support Irish Retailers then you're going to end up with 1, maybe 2 retailers left when the importation ban is enforced. That'll be fun
This i think is true and no so there are retailers out there that do rip people off . again i run my own business and know too well the cost of business in Ireland but one thing i have learnt from it is there is making a 10-15% which i am fine with and then making 150% on the other hand .
I recently ordered a AGE off you lads have no got it yet but price was decent and id rather order Irish then buy off Ehobby , but in my searching i was looking at a Irish site and the price of a similar AEG compared to Scottish site was just plain stupid you where looking after shipping from the Scottish shop about €660 and the irish site was selling the AEG for €1300 to me that is robbery but hey some site like that will not stay in business long .
To the other sites i deal with i live with Irish prices as i know the cost of running things and you have to make money to live and buying from Irish suppliers helps us in the long run .
But i think certain Suppliers need to be more honest Drilling is yes a way to down grade but maybe tell the guy who is spending his hard earned 200 euro that this AEG is drilled or if you pay €35 i will put a spring into one , i reckon most when told about the difference will pay the extra .0 -
* Throws flashbang into bunker, somersaults in after it, unleashes the noice...
Noize. N.O.I.Z.E. Noize.
N00bSaying that, anyone who orders a volume like this should at this stage have the sway with the manufacturer to produce 1 joule at factory. (I know this isnt feasible at all times)
I was hoping someone would say that
Scary fact, as of about 18 months ago when I last checked. In order to get one of the Chinese factories to produce 1 joule guns, you need to order 100 cartons of one model. In the case of a JG G36c, that would be 600 guns. I can only imagine it being even worse, if not impossible these days with the changes in Chinese airsoft.
Obviously, not all manufacturers would have the same MOQ - for example, G&G made guns to order for me when I was selling them, but it meant a delay of a few weeks for every order. Swings and roundabouts.Perhaps this is something the IAA can 'look into' as part of the affiliation process to promote 'fair trade' in the sector and to help those businesses who do things by the book.
They wont have to. One of the requirements to get a license to sell RIFs Iif its ever implemented) is that the retailer must have a vaid, current tax clearance cert. That would decimate the airsoft retail industry in this country overnight.I'm not even going to touch this one Tony
Thats cos my logic is unassailable and I am all knowing and all seeing :PThe inherent problem in Ireland is a fear of being ripped-off. When a guy goes on Redwolf or Ehobby and sees an AEG for say $500 he says to himself, ah that's E360, thats grand. He calls an Irish Retailer and asks for a quote, retailer says, E550, guy says 'f**k off you robbing b*st*rd'.
Dont get me started on that - if you were to search back through my thread you'd see more than one stand up row between me and some ill-informed gob****es who dont even understand how shipping, VAT and and tax affect everything you buy in this country.
It used to drive me insane. These days I'm much more mellow and relaxed 0 -
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So, and obviously this doesn't have to be answered if it would put retailers in hot water, but how do ye get guns in? Is it pot luck and hope they aren't checked or is it a case of all downgrading being done outside of the country?
So...United just clinched the premiership for the 19th time. Deadly 0 -
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hightower1 wrote: »I'd be interested if any retailers have considered that? Set up together in a a mid size store and focus mainly online. Professional site, a few gun techs, big savings for the customer based on savings that can be made by buying large quantities. Would retailers trust that the community could support a venture like that? TBH I know loyalty to a store plays a big part but if a retailer in Irl is shipping @ 40 eur cheaper than the rest I think the vat majority of players would be shopping there.... I mean look at currys on any given sat , people walking out with mental items and they certainly arent opting to shop in a small Irish retailer and pay more. I guy the tough part of that business model would be assessing "how big to go" vs "how much potential custom would be taken in"
That just doesnt exist in this industry, unfortunately. I used to deal with one of the largest wholesalers in China during the busy times, and even they offered only 2% - 5% discount, depending on brand and model, if you purchased at their highest level. And their highest level was bloody high - if I remember correctly I would have had to have been spending six figures per order to reach it.
I also dont think the market in this country is big enough for that kind of venture. In fact, this is going off topic a bit, but the market in this country is crazy. Its way over-populated with retailers. I had to laugh at someone commenting a week or so ago, when talking about a new retailer opening, that it was a "much needed new retailer". Thats utter bollocks
The last thing this industry needs is new retailers. The saturation of retailers is killing the industry, and while the consumer might be making short term gains as the retailers try to cut each others throats on low prices, eventually it'll collapse. You'll have two or three large retailers who deserve to survive by being lean, stock-optimised and cash-healthy, and perhaps a bunch of smaller hobbyists who cant hope to compete with the big guys, and who will close overnight when the licencing system is implemented and they're asked to produce tax certs.
Anyone who opens a new airsoft shop in the current climate is one of three things - 1) A 100% dyed in the wool optimist, 2) someone who's just been laid off, has a few grand to spend and didnt do an ounce of market research, or 3) a blithering idiot.
All three could arguably be the same thing 0 -
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