Airsoft vs Enviroment.

andros · 24-06-2009 2:26pm #1

Folling on my previous post about BBs usage, one thing came to my mind. Probably someone else look at this before me, but are you aware, that:

Going on the the scirmish and shooting 5000 BBs per day or weekend is equal to trowing away 30 empty Lucozade bottles.

I'm trying to use Bio-BBs as much as possible, but sometimes I'm "forced" to use plastic ones.

30 Lucozade bottles is equivalent of 5000 .20g BBs (Lucozade Bottle - 32.61g)

I'm going to find a shopping bag to calculate how many shopping bags would it be.

edit: One plastic shopping bag (disposable ones) = 5.77g so 5000 BBs is equivalent of 173 shopping bags being trown away.

Shiva · 24-06-2009 2:33pm

I dont have any facts to back this up, but my impression would be that the weight might be the same, but the materials arent.

I've seen whats left of non-bio BBs after a month or so in the Irish weather - they break down reasonably quickly. Lucozade bottles dont degrade in anything less than a few years, I'd imagine ?
Plastic bags would be a similar situation, I imagine.

Granted, thats not taking into account the effects the broken down BBs would have when they mix with the soil, but gut instinct tells me its negligible.

I'd be interested in seeing some facts about it, now that you've brought it up. I wonder was there ever a credible study done on the effects of airsoft on the environment ?

Firekitten · 24-06-2009 2:41pm

right....

what damage does 30 lucazade bottles do?

Ok, it wont break down... lets say for sake of argument neither item does... both are plastic... ok?

30 lucazade bottles can trap animals (small enough) and fish in water courses... they can be an eyesore... chemically they do sod all...

5000 bbs... smaller... not a chance to trap anything or harm anything... even swallowed they will pass out of anything big enough to eat one... in soil... so small they cant really pose any threat to the soil horizons or makeup... little to no chemical effect same as the bottles... Also damn harder to see than the bottles...

Whats the point of this ?

Btw, if you're using 5000 bbs a game, ur doing it rong.

andros · 24-06-2009 2:45pm

@Shiva: Let say I have means to test that. Have whole equiped lab. Regarding plastic BBs degrading, trying at the moment confirm what is the exact material that they are made of. As far as I'm concern, they do fall apart but it doesn't have anything to do with bio-degadabality.

Firekitten · 24-06-2009 2:46pm

Can your 'whole lab' please confirm the exact environmental impact of 5000 bbs. Id love some references too

As for finding out what they are made of... why not check a manufacturer's website eh?

NakedDex · 24-06-2009 3:07pm

Unless this research is going to take the several years a plastic bottle or standard carrier bag to break down as a reference against which to judge the degradability of the bb, I question the validity of the comparison. Gold and lead are both metals which weigh roughly the same, that isn't an indication of either metal having similar environmental reactions.
Five thousand .2g bbs is 1kg. If, and it's a big if because I have strong doubts bb's are made of PET, the bottles share exactly the same material components in exactly the same proportions, then there may be grounds for possible concern. But only after variables like finish, density, processing et al are taken into account as these all make a substantial difference to the breakdown properties of any material.

Incidentally, if "non-bio" bb's don't break down, I'd love to know where the thousands of rounds fired on my range in the garden have disappeared to over the years.

andros · 24-06-2009 3:10pm

Firekitten wrote: »

Can your 'whole lab' please confirm the exact environmental impact of 5000 bbs. Id love some references too

As for finding out what they are made of... why not check a manufacturer's website eh?

Imagine you have big amount of product made out of crude oil. Substance which doesn't belongs to the bio-sphere. Like Shiva stated, plastic bbs degrade over time in the soil. So in that case their chemical composition have to change. Ballance have to remain equal to 1. Nothing dissappears. I'm assuming some chemical compounds have to develop affecting different characteristics of the soil.

Comparition with bottles and plastic bags was use to make it simpler to people with no "degree".

Firekitten · 24-06-2009 3:20pm

firstly... where do you IMAGINE, crude oil comes from?

your information so far is assumptions... as you freely admit. You have done no studies to the fact, and your aproach seems over simplified and scaremongering.

IF bbs have an effect, and the volume of bbs needed to effect the biosphere would be good starting points for a study....

why not take a patch of land, pour bbs on, and study the soil composition at various grid points over a period of years?

That aproach i'd have no problems with. this 'well it probably will' science vexes me greatly.

andros · 24-06-2009 3:25pm

NakedDex wrote: »

Unless this research is going to take the several years a plastic bottle or standard carrier bag to break down as a reference against which to judge the degradability of the bb, I question the validity of the comparison. Gold and lead are both metals which weigh roughly the same, that isn't an indication of either metal having similar environmental reactions.
Five thousand .2g bbs is 1kg. If, and it's a big if because I have strong doubts bb's are made of PET, the bottles share exactly the same material components in exactly the same proportions, then there may be grounds for possible concern. But only after variables like finish, density, processing et al are taken into account as these all make a substantial difference to the breakdown properties of any material.

Incidentally, if "non-bio" bb's don't break down, I'd love to know where the thousands of rounds fired on my range in the garden have disappeared to over the years.

Some of them are probably tramped into the soil some of the, which got smashed and fell apart into dust, but they didn't underwent biodegradation. Every product have its own life span. I wouldn't compare gold and lead in that matter.

andros · 24-06-2009 3:31pm

Firekitten wrote: »

firstly... where do you IMAGINE, crude oil comes from?

your information so far is assumptions... as you freely admit. You have done no studies to the fact, and your aproach seems over simplified and scaremongering.

IF bbs have an effect, and the volume of bbs needed to effect the biosphere would be good starting points for a study....

why not take a patch of land, pour bbs on, and study the soil composition at various grid points over a period of years?

That aproach i'd have no problems with. this 'well it probably will' science vexes me greatly.

It's is very simple way to reapel the issue by statement: there is no sientific study on bbs makin impact on the enviroment so why care? Similar few decades ago noone know smoking tabacco will cause cancer. Which doesn't mean people dind't die from it.

legologic · 24-06-2009 3:31pm

At a guess I'd say the BB's are ABS (Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene). Because it has decent impact resistance it would be a logical choice. As for environmental frendliness ABS has very high chemical resistance so bad news there. It's very resistant to even strong acids and does not degrade easily.

Plastic bottles are generally made of PET (Polyethylene terephthalate) that degrades easier but still takes several years. It takes a few months to begin to degrade noticably as it does not have extremely strong chemical resistance. They can be recycled as they are thermoplastic which means the material can be reformed.

Plastic bags are usually made from PE (Polyethylene) which is unsupprisingly similar to PET in that it's a thermoplastic. Again low chemical resistance and can be recycled but while it begins to degrade quickly it also takes a few hundred years before it's well degraded as to be ineffectual.

Although I havent done material science in about two years I'd have to guess that the worst offender there would actually be ABS.

iceage · 24-06-2009 3:37pm

Interesting question Andros.

bullets · 24-06-2009 3:38pm

Doesn't direct sunlight cause BB's to degrade?

UV light reacting with the elasticity of the plastic a bit like if you've ever
see an old rubber band left exposed to the sun where it just crumbles
when you try and stretch it.

~B

andros · 24-06-2009 3:40pm

Please lets not approach to my first post in its direct meaning. It's more a model to show kind of a corelation.

legologic · 24-06-2009 3:43pm

bullets wrote: »

Doesn't direct sunlight cause BB's to degrade?

UV light reacting with the elasticity of the plastic a bit like if you've ever
see an old rubber band left exposed to the sun where it just crumbles
when you try and stretch it.

~B

possibly actually. It would make sense for abs to degrade like that as the "B" in abs is butadinene which is used to produce synthetic rubber afair.

andros · 24-06-2009 3:45pm

bullets wrote: »

Doesn't direct sunlight cause BB's to degrade?

UV light reacting with the elasticity of the plastic a bit like if you've ever
see an old rubber band left exposed to the sun where it just crumbles
when you try and stretch it.

~B

Yes, UV radiation is a very strong force. That afects properties of many substances and It's know fact. And even rubber is loosing its properties at this stage is far away from being able to be prossesed by microorganismy or plants.

NakedDex · 24-06-2009 3:46pm

If they didn't undergo degradation, and they weren't stamped into soil or smashed, what other explanations can you offer? I ask because the range is set up over an area covered with bark mulch and with a raised metal grid walkway to one side so neither explantion provided is applicable.
I've never actually bothered cleaning them up because a) they're falling on bark mulch so short of hand picking each one off the ground, it'd be virtually impossible and b) they always seemed to take care of themselves after a space of time. They're also not being blown away as the lane is set up beside an 8ft wall which is double-acting as an effective windbreak.
So unless the thousands of rounds are being eaten by the five or six birds I'd see in the garden of an evening, or there's hundreds of tiny elves with tiny sledgehammers breaking them up at night while I'm in bed/the pub, then I'm putting a wager of biodegradability of bb's being fairly provable.

For the record, I'm not trying to be pig ignorant here. I know my onions with materials, so to speak, and I'm just providing the conditions within which I see what I have become accustomed to as standard behaviour.
I'm curious as to the materials in not just a bb, but each brand. Some have a Teflon coating which must also be factored in, and some are rougher than others, providing a bigger surface area than a smoother one for a reaction.

Firekitten · 24-06-2009 3:48pm

andros wrote: »

It's is very simple way to reapel the issue by statement: there is no sientific study on bbs makin impact on the enviroment so why care? Similar few decades ago noone know smoking tabacco will cause cancer. Which doesn't mean people dind't die from it.

Firstly, I didnt say 'no study = no effect, i said your example does not produce the conclusion that you insinuate... yes, you make no firm statement to yes or no, but you heavily insinuate that 'omg bbs am end of world floodz carbonz' yada yada...

Dont treat me like i am simple, or so narrow minded to say no study = no effect.

legologic wrote: »

At a guess I'd say the BB's are ABS (Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene). Because it has decent impact resistance it would be a logical choice. As for environmental frendliness ABS has very high chemical resistance so bad news there. It's very resistant to even strong acids and does not degrade easily.

Plastic bottles are generally made of PET (Polyethylene terephthalate) that degrades easier but still takes several years. It takes a few months to begin to degrade noticably as it does not have extremely strong chemical resistance. They can be recycled as they are thermoplastic which means the material can be reformed.

Plastic bags are usually made from PE (Polyethylene) which is unsupprisingly similar to PET in that it's a thermoplastic. Again low chemical resistance and can be recycled but while it begins to degrade quickly it also takes a few hundred years before it's well degraded as to be ineffectual.

Although I havent done material science in about two years I'd have to guess that the worst offender there would actually be ABS.

Brilliant examples of the differences,

but surely the high chemical resistance of ABS means that it has less chemical effect on the surrounding environent, say, if mixed into soil?

the bbs would have similar effect to a rock of similar resistance... rocks in soil have little effect... to be 'loosely' metaphoric.

iceage · 24-06-2009 3:50pm

bullets wrote: »

Doesn't direct sunlight cause BB's to degrade?

UV light reacting with the elasticity of the plastic a bit like if you've ever
see an old rubber band left exposed to the sun where it just crumbles
when you try and stretch it.

~B[/QUOTE

Also rainwater has to have a major inpact on the natural breakdown of said BB, funny though I've had one sitting in a small jar for at least 3 months and continue to top it up as the water evaporates its still there...

andros · 24-06-2009 3:50pm

legologic wrote: »

possibly actually. It would make sense for abs to degrade like that as the "B" in abs is butadinene which is used to produce synthetic rubber afair.

Take in account what Dex said. Also the final form of the product afects its biodegradable properties. Bigger the pulverisation, bigger the contact of the compund with oxidants and other substances causing its degradation. How easy is for the water to penetrate. Bigger lumps will take much longer as it tends to creates passive layer on the surface which stops external mediums to travel inside. Eg. reaction of alluminium with sodium hydroxide.

andros · 24-06-2009 4:01pm

Firekitten wrote: »

Firstly, I didnt say 'no study = no effect, i said your example does not produce the conclusion that you insinuate... yes, you make no firm statement to yes or no, but you heavily insinuate that 'omg bbs am end of world floodz carbonz' yada yada...

Dont treat me like i am simple, or so narrow minded to say no study = no effect.

Brilliant examples of the differences,

but surely the high chemical resistance of ABS means that it has less chemical effect on the surrounding environent, say, if mixed into soil?

the bbs would have similar effect to a rock of similar resistance... rocks in soil have little effect... to be 'loosely' metaphoric.

I see you are gwoing impatient. Don't know how did you came to conclusion that I think BBs are going to end the World?

All the time you are trying to say that there is no scientific proof for how BBs afect enviroment and I'm trying to tell you: if we don't know about somethind it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Get over those bottles and plastic bags. In the situation we don't know what is happening. Maybe we should express some interest in this subject. That is my point. And we are not talking about 5000BBs. We are talking about hundreds of thousands BBs.

If all your scientific approach and trying to "slap me in the end of the day" your own words. Did you ever heard of expresion that everything is a poisson. It only depends on the dose. I could multiply examples here but why re-invent the wheel.

@Dex: There exist a possiblility that those BBs turn to dust. Which have mixed with the soil.

Firekitten · 24-06-2009 4:08pm

andros wrote: »

If all your scientific approach and trying to "slap me in the end of the day" your own words. Did you ever heard of expresion that everything is a poisson. It only depends on the dose. I could multiply examples here but why re-invent the wheel.

I think you need to get a grip....

I said nowhere that no proof = no harm, i said your work was not proof either way, and that there is no proof to say anything right now, and before we make any statements, scientific study should be undertaken... HOWEVER, It is my hyphothesis that you are wrong, the 'dose' as you put it is not going to be high enough. Make an alternate hypothesis, and we can test it, ill be the first to congratulate you on a good investigation if im wrong.

As for giving you a slap, you missinterpret IRC banter... i was ofcourse, refering to academic means. Please learn context... heck, that last sentance refers to all of this topic.

legologic · 24-06-2009 4:09pm

NakedDex wrote: »

For the record, I'm not trying to be pig ignorant here. I know my onions with materials, so to speak, and I'm just providing the conditions within which I see what I have become accustomed to as standard behaviour.
I'm curious as to the materials in not just a bb, but each brand. Some have a Teflon coating which must also be factored in, and some are rougher than others, providing a bigger surface area than a smoother one for a reaction.

The teflon is fairly interesting as wouldn't that further their chemical resistance?

andros wrote: »

Take in account what Dex said. Also the final form of the product afects its biodegradable properties. Bigger the pulverisation, bigger the contact of the compund with oxidants and other substances causing its degradation. How easy is for the water to penetrate. Bigger lumps will take much longer as it tends to creates passive layer on the surface which stops external mediums to travel inside. Eg. reaction of alluminium with sodium hydroxide.

Yeah the form and physical degradation here would definitly be an important factor.

I think these questions are important to ask.

I wish my printer/scanner had a spectrometer

andros · 24-06-2009 4:15pm

For, don't know which time, I have to tell you I didn't make a study in the subjcet. I can't understand why you are stuck on that and revolving around completly different matter.

My point it to exersise more awarnes in terms of airsofters approach to enviromental matter. We should be aware that we add to the pot.

Following your mind track we shouldn't be bothered by our activity as of a scale. We are not big enough contributor? If we don't talk about it there never will be any study undertaken.

Firekitten · 24-06-2009 4:20pm

you seem stuck on the idea that im after that. I was refering to the idea... which im really interested in... of doing a study...

I understand you were being metaphoric, but i disagree with your 'assesment' through that metaphor... i think without study, we cannot say 'hey be careful or aware' because we dont know what we are being aware of....

Im afraid that is topic may head in a 'omfg ban airsofts it spreads polution' direction.

study first, then make suggestions and raise ideas.

andros · 24-06-2009 4:25pm

Firekitten wrote: »

you seem stuck on the idea that im after that. I was refering to the idea... which im really interested in... of doing a study...

I understand you were being metaphoric, but i disagree with your 'assesment' through that metaphor... i think without study, we cannot say 'hey be careful or aware' because we dont know what we are being aware of....

Im afraid that is topic may head in a 'omfg ban airsofts it spreads polution' direction.

study first, then make suggestions and raise ideas.

Like I said above. When we just pass by the subject ther will never be any concer about that.

Why should we go into the 'omfg ban airsofts it spreads polution' direction. There are much bigger pollutants than airsoft - if airsoft is making pollution (we agree at the moment that we can't say either yes or no).

and I dissagree with: "study first, then make suggestions and raise ideas".

Dr_Pepper · 24-06-2009 4:25pm

Firekitten wrote: »

study first, then make suggestions and raise ideas.

You stole my words

DrPepper on IRC wrote:

test the theory. produce results. then point out the damage

Now no offense but this ENTIRE thread is speculation without proof.
Which to me, is completely pointless.

The idea has merit, but it needs without bias some study --- or perhaps contact to the BB manufacturers for their results.

andros · 24-06-2009 4:27pm

Dr_Pepper wrote: »

You stole my words

Now no offense but this ENTIRE thread is speculation without proof.
Which to me, is completely pointless.

Why because there is no mainstream concer? Maybe it should originated from the community itelf.

Dr_Pepper wrote: »

The idea has merit, but it needs without bias some study --- or perhaps contact to the BB manufacturers for their results.

Doing it at the moment.

Dr_Pepper · 24-06-2009 4:28pm

andros wrote: »

Why because there is no mainstream concer? Maybe it should originated from the community itelf.

Where the hell did you get that nugget from my post?
Or do you mis-read everything?

Also nice ammendment.

andros · 24-06-2009 4:35pm

I'm airsofting myself for years and just recently start thinking about impact we can acctualy make on our surrroundings. That is why I'd like to get the community involved into debate.

I'm aware my hypothessis have no backup in scientific study, but still it doesn't mean we shouldn't ask qusetions.

Dr_Pepper · 24-06-2009 4:35pm

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/?filnavn=/articles/bio_tests/bio_tests.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airsoft_pellets

Those 2 topics alone point to the main reasons why bb's don't degrade fast.
Simple google search. Include that in info in your study.

Dr_Pepper · 24-06-2009 4:37pm

andros wrote: »

I'm airsofting myself for years and just recently start thinking about impact we can acctualy make on our surrroundings. That is why I'd like to get the comunity involved into debate.

But what is the point in having a "debate" about a "topic" with "ZERO" facts?
Its pure speculation and opinion. And this is not Joe Duffy.

andros · 24-06-2009 4:44pm

Dr_Pepper wrote: »

But what is the point in having a "debate" about a "topic" with "ZERO" facts?
Its pure speculation and opinion!

I agree with you 100%. Still there are some facts, you've just posted two links.

On the other hand, I belive we shouln't ignore it only becasue there is no proper study. We all have comon sense. 2+2=4 ect. I'm just looking at those likns you've posted. Some of BBs listed over there contains Barium Sulphate. Barium Sulphate itself is not toxic but there are other barium compunds which are exhibit high toxicity.

Rhinocharge · 24-06-2009 4:47pm

How about the fact that plastic bb's, degradable bb's and bio bb's are made available.

Why manufacture them if there is no issue?
Why are some European countries bio bb only?

I'm intrigued.

andros · 24-06-2009 4:51pm

Concluding from that report (as long as it's not just a way of advertising) http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/?filnavn=/articles/bio_tests/bio_tests.htm there is concer.

P.K · 24-06-2009 4:55pm

andros wrote: »

I'm airsofting myself for years and just recently start thinking about impact we can acctualy make on our surrroundings. That is why I'd like to get the community involved into debate.

I do be up in HRTA quite regularly, and i for one have seen no definative proof that bbs have made a huge impact on the trees, grass, wildlife or anything. thats not to say there mighten be any, but i mean the place has seen a good few box mag brigades. Hundreds of thousands of bbs have been used/fired/drop/spilled whatever on the site and yet every year the grass grows higher and trees get thicker. so as of yet, i dont see any immediate evidence on the bbs effects on nature. So far i'd say the average skirmisher does more damage to the enviroment, making track ways through the place, or climbing trees, clearing spaces to hide in etc.

but thats not to say that the idea dosnt hold any merit.
i just think its not such an immediate threat or big a problem you think it is

andros · 24-06-2009 5:02pm

P.K wrote: »

I do be up in HRTA quite regularly, and i for one have seen no definative proof that bbs have made a huge impact on the trees, grass, wildlife or anything. thats not to say there mighten be any, but i mean the place has seen a good few box mag brigades. Hundreds of thousands of bbs have been used/fired/drop/spilled whatever on the site and yet every year the grass grows higher and trees get thicker. so as of yet, i dont see any immediate evidence on the bbs effects on nature. So far i'd say the average skirmisher does more damage to the enviroment, making track ways through the place, or climbing trees, clearing spaces to hide in etc.

but thats not to say that the idea dosnt hold any merit.
i just think its not such an immediate threat or big a problem you think it is

I'm not saying it is, but I can't say it's not either. And that's the problem. We don't know. Rhino made a good point, why some countrys are bio- only? How long doeas HRTA runs? What impact would it have after 10-20-30 years?

Firekitten · 24-06-2009 5:36pm

andros wrote: »

I agree with you 100%. Still there are some facts, you've just posted two links.

On the other hand, I belive we shouln't ignore it only becasue there is no proper study. We all have comon sense. 2+2=4 ect. I'm just looking at those likns you've posted. Some of BBs listed over there contains Barium Sulphate. Barium Sulphate itself is not toxic but there are other barium compunds which are exhibit high toxicity.

for fecks sake man.... we are not ignoring it, we are waiting till proper information is tendered before riding off on our Drama Llama....

Its not common sense, its your speculation.

yes, some are toxic, but by your own admision bbs have high chemical reistance, the chance of said substance being released is therefor low.

Do you read your own posts? or is this an off the cuff jobie?

Firekitten · 24-06-2009 5:39pm

andros wrote: »

I'm airsofting myself for years and just recently start thinking about impact we can acctualy make on our surrroundings. That is why I'd like to get the community involved into debate.

I'm aware my hypothessis have no backup in scientific study, but still it doesn't mean we shouldn't ask qusetions.

there either is, or there isnt an effect. there is no debate.

If you wish to know this answer, go study it, if not, theres really no point to this...

Im perfectly willing to undertake such a study and have the academic background to do so... providing recources are available... it would be an excelent idea....

To be honest... we use electric guns, or gas guns... both polute...

I propose a new line of RIS mounted Windmills on all aegs to power them... and potentially we can shoot ICE bbs... that way they melt when left. green airsoft

Hivemind187 · 24-06-2009 5:52pm

andros wrote: »

I agree with you 100%. Still there are some facts, you've just posted two links.

On the other hand, I belive we shouln't ignore it only becasue there is no proper study. We all have comon sense. 2+2=4 ect. I'm just looking at those likns you've posted. Some of BBs listed over there contains Barium Sulphate. Barium Sulphate itself is not toxic but there are other barium compunds which are exhibit high toxicity.

... *facepalm*

"No officer I know it wasnt THAT particular tall gentleman. He is an alright guy and an upstanding member of society but I believe that he should be taken away because an entirely different man, who happens to be in the family of tall people, nicked my bike."

Spetzcong · 24-06-2009 6:00pm

As someone who is generally of the "scew the environment, let my kids deal with it, I had my fun, mwuh ha ha ha ha" brigade I'm not really too fussed whether BBs do pollute or not. It would be interesting to find out, and I do think someone should look into it, but for the moment we just don't know enough to be able to say whether it really is harmful or not.

I'd say there's probably more pollution caused in the manufacture of BBs, and AEGs and the materials that make them than is caused by firing them. Sure until we know more who's to say that your car doesn't cause more harm to the environment from driving to skirmish sites than BBs do?

Down with tree hugging hippies in airsoft!

andros · 24-06-2009 6:03pm

Firekitten wrote: »

there either is, or there isnt an effect. there is no debate.

If you wish to know this answer, go study it, if not, theres really no point to this...

Im perfectly willing to undertake such a study and have the academic background to do so... providing recources are available... it would be an excelent idea....

To be honest... we use electric guns, or gas guns... both polute...

I propose a new line of RIS mounted Windmills on all aegs to power them... and potentially we can shoot ICE bbs... that way they melt when left. green airsoft

What you are saying makes no sense at all. Your mindtrack makes even less sense. Stating that we shouldn't talk about something because there is no study in the subject is a big misstake. I expressed my concerns in the subject that involves all of us. I think that correctly, first there should be a hypothessis before undertaking any study, but to be even more exact eve hypothessis is a part of the study itself.

Do you segregate garbage? And don't tell anyone you have a degree, you're only digging hole uder yourself.

Firekitten · 24-06-2009 6:11pm

mine is hard to follow?

Perhaps we need to conduct a neurological study on you...

to see if you have one.

andros · 24-06-2009 6:18pm

Spetzcong wrote: »

As someone who is generally of the "scew the environment, let my kids deal with it, I had my fun, mwuh ha ha ha ha" brigade I'm not really too fussed whether BBs do pollute or not. It would be interesting to find out, and I do think someone should look into it, but for the moment we just don't know enough to be able to say whether it really is harmful or not.

I'd say there's probably more pollution caused in the manufacture of BBs, and AEGs and the materials that make them than is caused by firing them. Sure until we know more who's to say that your car doesn't cause more harm to the environment from driving to skirmish sites than BBs do?

Down with tree hugging hippies in airsoft!

I agree with terms of manufacturing aegs and bbs, but we need aegs and bbs to play, but why we don't think how to minimise impact. It's not like I wan't everyone to stop airsofting. I'm airsofting myself, but I see that people just don't care. I was sitting and thinking and that just came to my mind, that we are trowing away large amounts of syntetic materials and it's not in Ireland but all over the world. Following up on what you said. Making hybrid car creates more pollution that making and driving classic diesel car.

Firekitten · 24-06-2009 6:19pm

The solution?

everyone should play milsim... we use far less bbs

Hivemind187 · 24-06-2009 6:20pm

andros wrote: »

What you are saying makes no sense at all. Your mindtrack makes even less sense. Stating that we shouldn't talk about something because there is no study in the subject is a big misstake. I expressed my concerns in the subject that involves all of us. I think that correctly, first there should be a hypothessis before undertaking any study, but to be even more exact eve hypothessis is a part of the study itself.

Do you segregate garbage? And don't tell anyone you have a degree, you're only digging hole uder yourself.

It might be because all you are doing is slinging potentials without any supporting evidence or data to justify it. Frankly, this is how hysteria gets started, people who dont have information but treat assumption as fact and combine that fallacy with far too much emotion.

What people have been telling you is actually the correct scientific approach.

Start with a question, investigate the current available data, if you dont find your answer do your own research in a proper manner, present that research for review, ammend your test methods appropriately and repeat the test, present your second set of findings with the data, then the theory and explanation of what is happening (if anything).

Otherwise you are only running around in rush-hour traffic screaming about the sky falling.

andros · 24-06-2009 6:20pm

Firekitten wrote: »

mine is hard to follow?

Perhaps we need to conduct a neurological study on you...

to see if you have one.

Don't be so angry. I don't know why you are taking it so personally. Do you have problems with your personality? Were you stress free child? Are you having uncontrolled agression outbreakes?

I think your problem is that I don't what to agree with you.

andros · 24-06-2009 6:22pm

Firekitten wrote: »

The solution?

everyone should play milsim... we use far less bbs

It might be the soultion, but rather impossible with current fps limits.

Hivemind187 · 24-06-2009 6:22pm

andros wrote: »

Don't be so angry. I don't know why you are taking it so personally. Do you have problems with your personality? Were you stress free child? Are you having uncontrolled agression outbreakes?

I think your problem is that I don't what to agree with you.

Ok ... this is getting childish.

"You're a smelly-head!"

"No you're a smelly head!"

"You're a smelly-head times a million!"

Etc

... starting to remind me of the IAA staff meetings

andros · 24-06-2009 6:26pm

Hivemind187 wrote: »

It might be because all you are doing is slinging potentials without any supporting evidence or data to justify it. Frankly, this is how hysteria gets started, people who dont have information but treat assumption as fact and combine that fallacy with far too much emotion.

What people have been telling you is actually the correct scientific approach.

Start with a question, investigate the current available data, if you dont find your answer do your own research in a proper manner, present that research for review, ammend your test methods appropriately and repeat the test, present your second set of findings with the data, then the theory and explanation of what is happening (if anything).

Otherwise you are only running around in rush-hour traffic screaming about the sky falling.

I don't know from people getting those weird ideas about sky falling. With that attitude I can't see you understanding my message.

Ps. You see, the problem is Firekitten came up with that whole scientific talk I don't know why. Maybe because he have his "degree" and he like to use it a lot.

Firekitten · 24-06-2009 6:30pm

You came into this... (dont forget you started this) slinging the 'i r scientist lol look at my lab' crap... and you dont expect someone to come back at you asking for proof and further details?... sorry mate, this isnt fanfiction.net....

As for someone using HER degree... no ****... why the feck do you think im getting it? to fill wall space?

Airsoft vs Enviroment.

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