Alarm options?

Nelbert · 09-06-2017 12:32pm #1

Hi guys,

I know it's been discussed before but has anyone successfully integrated alarm and automation?

I've a Vera edge and a fair few z wave enabled devices.

I have no problem switching to zig bee or something else but the ultimate goal for me is a unified front (if I got a zigbee alarm I'd use Domoticz as a front for both it and Vera z-wave for example).

The ultimate goal is that any window and door sensors are BOTH automation and security enabled. I don't want 2 separate sensors on the 3-4 doors I'd be putting them on.

Is there alarm systems available with registered installers that are either z-wave or IP addressable (easily and securely!) or a fallback I know there is some that you can hook up voltage sensors to sense arm / disarm etc. My fear (i.e. what I want to avoid) with IP or voltage sensor is that detecting the status of individual door / window sensors wouldn't be possible.

I know this has been discussed before but hoping a new thread with new / current status might be good.

wexfordman2 · 09-06-2017 1:31pm

Nelbert wrote: »

Hi guys,

I know it's been discussed before but has anyone successfully integrated alarm and automation?

I've a Vera edge and a fair few z wave enabled devices.

I have no problem switching to zig bee or something else but the ultimate goal for me is a unified front (if I got a zigbee alarm I'd use Domoticz as a front for both it and Vera z-wave for example).

The ultimate goal is that any window and door sensors are BOTH automation and security enabled. I don't want 2 separate sensors on the 3-4 doors I'd be putting them on.

Is there alarm systems available with registered installers that are either z-wave or IP addressable (easily and securely!) or a fallback I know there is some that you can hook up voltage sensors to sense arm / disarm etc. My fear (i.e. what I want to avoid) with IP or voltage sensor is that detecting the status of individual door / window sensors wouldn't be possible.

I know this has been discussed before but hoping a new thread with new / current status might be good.

Hi,

I've had the comfort alarm system by cytech for.the last 17 years (upgraded it about ten years ago, but apart from that same system). It's a fully fledged automation controller and alarm system with an Android or iPhone app that lets you control the alarm, automation devices and view cameras etc.

It has interfaces to zwave, cbus, knx, X10, velbus and lots more different interfaces.

Regards

Eamon

Nelbert · 09-06-2017 1:56pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Hi,

I've had the comfort alarm system by cytech for.the last 17 years (upgraded it about ten years ago, but apart from that same system). It's a fully fledged automation controller and alarm system with an Android or iPhone app that lets you control the alarm, automation devices and view cameras etc.

It has interfaces to zwave, cbus, knx, X10, velbus and lots more different interfaces.

Regards

Eamon

Did you install yourself? Could you pm me your installer if not?
Essentially I'd love to have something like that just sitting on the existing z wave network and be able to make use of z wave door sensors etc.

wexfordman2 · 09-06-2017 2:39pm

Nelbert wrote: »

Did you install yourself? Could you pm me your installer if not?
Essentially I'd love to have something like that just sitting on the existing z wave network and be able to make use of z wave door sensors etc.

I fitted it myself, there are installers about in Ireland though, take a look at the website for links www.cytech.biz

One thing I would say about it, from an automation perspective you do want to be able to access and tweak the programming of it yourself. And I would say the same for any controller. When the controller is your alarm system also, sometimes an installer may be reluctant to give you access to the system at that level, so check that out if you are going the installer route.

Stoner · 09-06-2017 2:51pm

wexfordman2 wrote:

It has interfaces to zwave, cbus, knx, X10, velbus and lots more different interfaces.

Having looked at many systems I regret not getting this one.

It's far better than the others I've seen

Nelbert · 09-06-2017 4:18pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I fitted it myself, there are installers about in Ireland though, take a look at the website for links www.cytech.biz

One thing I would say about it, from an automation perspective you do want to be able to access and tweak the programming of it yourself. And I would say the same for any controller. When the controller is your alarm system also, sometimes an installer may be reluctant to give you access to the system at that level, so check that out if you are going the installer route.

I don't mind having 2 controllers one for automation and one for alarm. It's doubling up on sensors etc that I don't want. So even if it was locked down as an alarm controller only I'd be fine with that, I'd have my other controller as the primary one for automation aspects...... if that makes sense.

Is your house insurance impacted by it being self install?

wexfordman2 · 09-06-2017 8:43pm

Nelbert wrote: »

I don't mind having 2 controllers one for automation and one for alarm. It's doubling up on sensors etc that I don't want. So even if it was locked down as an alarm controller only I'd be fine with that, I'd have my other controller as the primary one for automation aspects...... if that makes sense.

Is your house insurance impacted by it being self install?

Hi, I don't claim an alarm discount, or I got a lower discount as it's a self install.

Nelbert · 09-06-2017 10:29pm

Is it a complex install considering I'd be going with the alarm panel, siren, keypad and z wave add on?

Had a quick glance and most of the complex stuff seems more geared towards wired zones where as my sensors etc would just be z wave?

I've done cable pulls and outdoor sockets and lights etc but an alarm would be a new one on the DIY resume. Just wouldn't like to make a mess of it or worse fry the board/s

Stoner · 10-06-2017 7:09am

wexfordman2 wrote:

Hi, I don't claim an alarm discount, or I got a lower discount as it's a self install.

That's the general advice on the home security forum too. It's not worth it

wexfordman2 · 10-06-2017 9:20am

Nelbert wrote: »

Is it a complex install considering I'd be going with the alarm panel, siren, keypad and z wave add on?

Had a quick glance and most of the complex stuff seems more geared towards wired zones where as my sensors etc would just be z wave?

I've done cable pulls and outdoor sockets and lights etc but an alarm would be a new one on the DIY resume. Just wouldn't like to make a mess of it or worse fry the board/s

Split the install into two boys

The wiring, which tbh is not difficult, it's just pirs (2 or 3 pairs per our) and door contacts.

The keypads use cat5.

The complexity in the wiring is planning it and making sure you get everything where you need it. I have door sensors on some of my internal doors to activate lights etc.

The programming then is the next phase which will take you a while to get the hang of by is fairly logical.

I would suggest downloading the manual, and even the comfigurator program to see how the programming is done. Explore the forums alos,

I have a guide I wore up to an upgrade I did on my system so I will link that if you want alos.

Off you are handy with wiring, and logical then you could do it yourself.

My background is telcoms, so it was second nature to me almost.

Nelbert · 10-06-2017 12:01pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Split the install into two boys

The wiring, which tbh is not difficult, it's just pirs (2 or 3 pairs per our) and door contacts.

The keypads use cat5.

The complexity in the wiring is planning it and making sure you get everything where you need it. I have door sensors on some of my internal doors to activate lights etc.

The programming then is the next phase which will take you a while to get the hang of by is fairly logical.

I would suggest downloading the manual, and even the comfigurator program to see how the programming is done. Explore the forums alos,

I have a guide I wore up to an upgrade I did on my system so I will link that if you want alos.

Off you are handy with wiring, and logical then you could do it yourself.

My background is telcoms, so it was second nature to me almost.

Cheers I was actually thinking of using all z wave PIRs and door contacts rather than any wires....

I assume the keypad are just you bog standard looking numeric plus a few extra button type?

FrankGrimes · 10-06-2017 3:00pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Split the install into two boys

The wiring, which tbh is not difficult, it's just pirs (2 or 3 pairs per our) and door contacts.

The keypads use cat5.

The complexity in the wiring is planning it and making sure you get everything where you need it. I have door sensors on some of my internal doors to activate lights etc.

The programming then is the next phase which will take you a while to get the hang of by is fairly logical.

I would suggest downloading the manual, and even the comfigurator program to see how the programming is done. Explore the forums alos,

I have a guide I wore up to an upgrade I did on my system so I will link that if you want alos.

Off you are handy with wiring, and logical then you could do it yourself.

My background is telcoms, so it was second nature to me almost.

Are you using separate home automation hub for the lights or does the security hub also do that? Link to cytech didn't work on my phone, which product was it? Already feeling that running cables to power all the motion sensors I want for HA (dont want to have to change batteries all the time) will be a lot so 2nd set for security seems a bit much. Still struggling to accept that security systems that relay events/ integrate with HA hubs like Smartthings are so limited in thisbdayband age.

Actually, that reminds me, have been finding the Smartthings forum to be the most informative site I've come across with very resourceful members so maybe someone on there will have some code or solution to join up the two systems, worth a look.

wexfordman2 · 10-06-2017 4:53pm

Nelbert wrote: »

Cheers I was actually thinking of using all z wave PIRs and door contacts rather than any wires....

I assume the keypad are just you bog standard looking numeric plus a few extra button type?

To my.mind, if you are wiring from scratch why put in wireless devices when you could go wired ?

Apart from usual issues with wireless sensors such as receptionn,better life, reliability, compare the cost of a zero wave pir or door sensor to a standard wired one.

Specific to comfort though, the z wave sensors I don't think can be used as an alarm trigger, I might be wrong on this but worth checking up.

They keypads can vary in look, you can even get touch screen and intercom ones.

But, I would strongly suggest go wired for your sensors.

wexfordman2 · 10-06-2017 5:05pm

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Are you using separate home automation hub for the lights or does the security hub also do that? Link to cytech didn't work on my phone, which product was it? Already feeling that running cables to power all the motion sensors I want for HA (dont want to have to change batteries all the time) will be a lot so 2nd set for security seems a bit much. Still struggling to accept that security systems that relay events/ integrate with HA hubs like Smartthings are so limited in thisbdayband age.

Actually, that reminds me, have been finding the Smartthings forum to be the most informative site I've come across with very resourceful members so maybe someone on there will have some code or solution to join up the two systems, worth a look.

Hi Frank, yep the security system is also the automation hub.

Some general things I have it doing, and note that because it's an integrated alarm system and controller, you can get it to behave differently based on the status of the alarm system (away, night mode, home mode)

1) All lghts are smart controlled, using velbus devices, but this could easily be done with other protocols that comfort supports.
2) events can be triggered from any door or motion sensor, and based on or restricted to dusk, Dawn, security mode etc, security arming, disarming etc.

3) so, certain rooms I have the lighting based on motion detection after dusk. When you walk into a room, or open a door, the lights are activated for a set period. I have not his set in the bathrooms, kitchen, master bedroom, and corridor.

4) when leaving home, once the system is armed it will turn off any or all devices that I have it controlling. In my instance, all lights.

5) arriving home, if it's dark, once the front Doo is opened, it turns on internal hall lights and kitchen lights.

6) by the bedside an arm button sets the house to night mode, turns off all lights, and prevents them being auto triggered by motion, or in some cases makes other lights now that igger based on motion detection.

7) used to control my heating bit I have migrated this to nest.

8) app allows full control of the system locly or remotely, including all connected devices.

On the smart things, there are two things to note. Comfort does not talk directly to the ST hub, but if your devices are z wave then it should be able to talk dir xtly to the devices.

There is a rasperry pie smart things emulator which will talk to comfort, so that is actually an interface from comfort directly to smart things.

I will post some links in a few minutes

wexfordman2 · 10-06-2017 5:09pm

http://www.cytech.biz

http://www.comfortforums.com

www.velbus.eu

And a link to a guide I did on my own system when I upgraded my system from using X10 for controlling lights to using velbus.

https://drive.google.com/a/glenegare.com/file/d/0B1zlDoqP2HdxUGVJdnY3WGtYamM/view?usp=drivesdk

Nelbert · 10-06-2017 5:25pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

To my.mind, if you are wiring from scratch why put in wireless devices when you could go wired ?

Apart from usual issues with wireless sensors such as receptionn,better life, reliability, compare the cost of a zero wave pir or door sensor to a standard wired one.

Specific to comfort though, the z wave sensors I don't think can be used as an alarm trigger, I might be wrong on this but worth checking up.

They keypads can vary in look, you can even get touch screen and intercom ones.

But, I would strongly suggest go wired for your sensors.

I'm not wiring from scratch..... this is ad hoc after the fact (ie after decoration) improvement.... wife approval factor plays against me....

Latest comfort version supports z wave as alarm sensors.... point taken though I could wire main PIR and front door sensor (they'd be cheaper than the z wave ones too!). It will also create virtual z wave modules to reflect wired PIR and door sensors etc (up to 128 of them!).

I've a really good z wave mesh throughout the house, excellent coverage in the attic and the length of the back garden.

Read a good few of the comfort manuals and happy to attack this as a DIY challenge now.... bit more reading and then some pricing and ordering!

wexfordman2 · 10-06-2017 5:49pm

Nelbert wrote: »

I'm not wiring from scratch..... this is ad hoc after the fact (ie after decoration) improvement.... wife approval factor plays against me....

Latest comfort version supports z wave as alarm sensors.... point taken though I could wire main PIR and front door sensor (they'd be cheaper than the z wave ones too!). It will also create virtual z wave modules to reflect wired PIR and door sensors etc (up to 128 of them!).

I've a really good z wave mesh throughout the house, excellent coverage in the attic and the length of the back garden.

Read a good few of the comfort manuals and happy to attack this as a DIY challenge now.... bit more reading and then some pricing and ordering!

Brilliant, good luck, gve me a shout if you need any info and I will help if I can. If your interested in seeing my system either let me know.

Two things I would suggest. When considering your rewire for sensors, think about internal door sensors, you can get them completely hidden so not visible so no aesthetic issues.

The reason you might want them on some doora, is as follows.

A typical light activation is done based on time of day, and motion detection. So, of a pir detects motion at 7pm in December, it k ows it's dark and someone has come on, so it turns on the light. It then starts a countdown timer to turn off the light, and unless motion is detected again in the interim, it turns off the light. If it detects motion while the timer is still running, then it reloads the timer thereby extending the on time.

This approach works very well, in rooms with medium to high traffic, and on its own is auffeceint to get good functionality, the timer length can be tweaked to improve based on traffic etc (eg, kitchen has the timer set to ten minutes, bit the corridor only three).

Anyway, the only room where I see an exception to the above is the bathroom. As of someone goes into a bathroom, and you kick off a timer, they erm,.. may be motionless for a whole, and in a sitting position ;-) or, in the bath or shower. So in this scenario, the room could have someone in it motionless from 2 minutes to an hour, so something more is needed to make it work flawlessly.

The solution is to add a door sensor to the bathroom, so, when when the door is opened, the light turns on and the timer starts etc. But, of the bathroom pir senses motion (no pun intended ) and the door is closed, then it pauses the timer until the door is opened again. A spring loaded door closer makes this work seamlessly as well

FrankGrimes · 10-06-2017 11:24pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

http://www.cytech.biz

http://www.comfortforums.com

www.velbus.eu

And a link to a guide I did on my own system when I upgraded my system from using X10 for controlling lights to using velbus.

https://drive.google.com/a/glenegare.com/file/d/0B1zlDoqP2HdxUGVJdnY3WGtYamM/view?usp=drivesdk

Thanks a lot for this. Looks like I have some reading up to do... sounds like this may get the dual HA and security use I'm hoping to have to deploy only one set of sensors. I'm pretty strongly leaning towards Smartthings as my hub as the community is so productive it seems what little it does not do officially will be adequately provided for.

So if I understand there are two scenarios for dual HA and security usage of the sensors: A) wire the sensors to the Comfort system and it will relay them to Smartthings (through some potentially complex solution, e.g. Raspberry Pi) and

use zwave sensors (which I would still need to run cables to for usb power as batteries is just too flaky an idea for me) and will those sensors speak to both the Comfort and Smartthings sensors? Actually typing that out makes me realise if it was just one way comms, that might work, but cant see it with two way as both hubs may be out of sync?

FrankGrimes · 26-12-2017 3:37pm

wefordman2, your mentioning Comfort on another thread I posted on a few days ago gave me deja vu and reminded me of this thread and that I hadn't fully read up on it.

Now I have, I can see the importance of Comfort interacting with SmartThings/HomeAssistant is lower than I had thought as it seems Comfort can actually do most of what I want the HA hub to do, i.e. lighting control in conjunction with security control (alarm arm = turn off lights and arm, holiday mode = arm alarm, turn on lights at intervals to make it look like we're still home etc.).

So I'm almost ready to commit to going with Comfort for our security alarm - I'm asking myself what are the possible downsides as it seems to function well as an alarm, so worst case is it ends up being used for just that? Main question is, why is it so little known, so infrequently mentioned on HA forums etc.?

Other main concern is from the Comfort forums, the add-in that integrates with SmartThings does not seem to be in active development? I'm worried I'll end up not being able to get SmartThings to do the things Comfort can't and still have it acting as one holistic system (e.g. let's say ST can control my air-to-water heat pump but Comfort can't).

Read wexfordman's highly informative PDF on Comfort + Velbus (thanks!) and it does have me intrigued. I already stockpiled 20 x Fibaro zwave dimmers + 20 x Fibaro RGBW Controllers for zwave control of LED strips, but this has me intrigued as to whether Velbus or another bus system would be good for me. Can Comfort have both a Velbus and a Zwave expansion board at the same time or just one?

I'm now leaning towards having duplicate lighting wiring circuits: 3-wire (including neutral) 220v for the fallback to traditional lighting if ever needed, and also supports zwave option (though Fibaro can make do with 2 wires, 3 in new install is best practice I've read). I'll then run CAT5e/6 to every light switch to enable the option of going with a bus system such as Velbus.

Meeting my electrician brother-in-law shortly to have him help draw out the high-level wiring diagrams in play which will help me picture the possible setups. With Velbus is it CAT5/6 to every light switch all connected to a central cable called bus or anything much else?

Velbus also seems little known, is there a risk of it disappearing, and where's good for buying it? Was looking at www.laser.com for Comfort gear. How does Velbus compare to other similar options on price, e.g. is CBUS close or way more expensive?

Maybe I should look at how much of what I want to do can be done by Velbus (e.g. control of blinds, heating, door locks) and zwave from Comfort directly and then see if there's anything significant left out which I'd then need to rely on SmartThings for? Would be very excited at the prospect of Comfort being as good as it sounds so thanks for the info!

wexfordman2 · 26-12-2017 10:08pm

FrankGrimes wrote: »

wefordman2, your mentioning Comfort on another thread I posted on a few days ago gave me deja vu and reminded me of this thread and that I hadn't fully read up on it.

Now I have, I can see the importance of Comfort interacting with SmartThings/HomeAssistant is lower than I had thought as it seems Comfort can actually do most of what I want the HA hub to do, i.e. lighting control in conjunction with security control (alarm arm = turn off lights and arm, holiday mode = arm alarm, turn on lights at intervals to make it look like we're still home etc.).

So I'm almost ready to commit to going with Comfort for our security alarm - I'm asking myself what are the possible downsides as it seems to function well as an alarm, so worst case is it ends up being used for just that? Main question is, why is it so little known, so infrequently mentioned on HA forums etc.?

Other main concern is from the Comfort forums, the add-in that integrates with SmartThings does not seem to be in active development? I'm worried I'll end up not being able to get SmartThings to do the things Comfort can't and still have it acting as one holistic system (e.g. let's say ST can control my air-to-water heat pump but Comfort can't).

Read wexfordman's highly informative PDF on Comfort + Velbus (thanks!) and it does have me intrigued. I already stockpiled 20 x Fibaro zwave dimmers + 20 x Fibaro RGBW Controllers for zwave control of LED strips, but this has me intrigued as to whether Velbus or another bus system would be good for me. Can Comfort have both a Velbus and a Zwave expansion board at the same time or just one?

I'm now leaning towards having duplicate lighting wiring circuits: 3-wire (including neutral) 220v for the fallback to traditional lighting if ever needed, and also supports zwave option (though Fibaro can make do with 2 wires, 3 in new install is best practice I've read). I'll then run CAT5e/6 to every light switch to enable the option of going with a bus system such as Velbus.

Meeting my electrician brother-in-law shortly to have him help draw out the high-level wiring diagrams in play which will help me picture the possible setups. With Velbus is it CAT5/6 to every light switch all connected to a central cable called bus or anything much else?

Velbus also seems little known, is there a risk of it disappearing, and where's good for buying it? Was looking at www.laser.com for Comfort gear. How does Velbus compare to other similar options on price, e.g. is CBUS close or way more expensive?

Maybe I should look at how much of what I want to do can be done by Velbus (e.g. control of blinds, heating, door locks) and zwave from Comfort directly and then see if there's anything significant left out which I'd then need to rely on SmartThings for? Would be very excited at the prospect of Comfort being as good as it sounds so thanks for the info!

Hi Frank,

I prob need to give a more detailed reply, but can't via my mobile sorry, I'll get back to you later, but a couple of quick points

1) I use nest for my heating, I used to use comfort for that, but moved to nest a bout two years ago. I genuinely think for heating, a dedicated system is the way to go, they do it best. Now if you can get that system to interface to others then even better. Comfort will do your heating, but I just don't think it or any other systems will do it as well as a dedicated smart heating system.
2) velbus, is made by velleman, it's around for decades afaik, but you raise a good point. When putting electronics into bricks and mortar, the electronics will always be the first thing to go, or need replacing or updating. The point I think is to ensure that your house can upgrade and take other systems. While my system is velbus, and I've made this ppint before, the wiring backbone behind it will work with most other hardwired systems such as cbus, eib, loxone, idratek etc.

I can rip out all my velbus modules and repallce them with a different system tomorrow, as the wiring is the same. That's abut as future proof as you can make it I think.

3) comfort smart things interface is released, but as a diy addition, a fully supported consumer version is being developed.. as it stands at the moment, comfort has given me access to my velbus system via Google home using the smart things interface.

4) a hardwired system is the way to go, but the one drawback I think velbis has it it does not yet have an official support for Alexa or Google hom e, but they are developing one I am told.

Regards

Eamon

FrankGrimes · 27-12-2017 4:43pm

Thanks for that wexfordman2, very helpful as always. Very informative session with my brother-in-law yesterday, he lives opposite side of the country but has kindly offered to review wiring plans and provide advice. He has a Lutron system in his house so was able to show me his wiring setup which helped explain things when he sketched out simple wiring diagrams to teach me the principles. He was able to pick up 2nd hand Lutron parts on ebay over a year for cheap, we're 1st fixing 2nd week January so quite limited in time available before we have to make wiring decisions.

Bottom line is after yesterday's session, I have decided to go with Comfort for the alarm and Velbus or another similar tech for the lighting and power controls. Brother-in-law recommended that every individual lighting circuit (may contain a group of lights) be wired directly back to the fuseboard via a Twin & Earth cable with a Cat5/6 cable also run from the fuseboard directly to each switch. This allows housing the Velbus/other dimmer/relay modules back at the fuseboard for easy configuration.

Then a single brown live wire is run from each switch back to the fuseboard also. This switched live will be redundant in Plan A, but in the event the smart module doesn't work out, it will allow for taking it out of the equation and using the switched live to have it wired as a traditional setup, so a solid Plan B fallback.

Still plenty to read up on, but feel good about the general direction this is headed. Do have a few questions you may be able to help with:

A. Where did you buy your Velbus gear and what caused you to choose it over other options (price, ease of install/use etc.)?

B. Is there anything Comfort cannot do that a traditional alarm can (e.g. detection of wire tampering/cutting)?

C. With Comfort do you just use standard components that you would on a traditional alarm (cable, shock sensors, PIRs - i.e. low cost), or do you need to get smart versions of these components in order for Comfort to be able to identify events from each one individually? Laser.com don't seem to have the shocks/PIR sensors so I wonder if that's because traditional gear can be used?

D. How do I determine how many inputs I need for the Comfort panel - is it one input per sensor or per zone (e.g. if I group all shock sensors in kitchen/sitting/dining room that's one input)?

E. What way is the Velbus bus cable wired - if every module is housed at the fuseboard, is there one CAT5e cable connecting them all there (in addition to the cables going to each switch)? I didn't quite follow the Krone patch panel setup in your PDF but would like to as I gather it increases flexibility and removes need to open the 220v box.

F. Heating: we will have an air-to-water heat pump powering A) underfloor heating (all downstairs)

3 x heated towel rails and C) 3 x aluminium radiators upstairs. Is Nest best for this setup?

Next step is to start listing out the full details of wiring and smart home capabilities in each room and then use this to build out the wiring diagram. That'll be a big piece of work but feel good about getting started on it now, thanks a bunch for the priceless advice.

wexfordman2 · 27-12-2017 6:01pm

Frank,

What part of tje country are you in, I'm in east cork of your around this way, your quite welcome to have a look at my setup, and see how I did ot, as well as learn from my mistakes ?

1) comfort is fully functional as am ala system.
2) I went for velbus for 3 reasons, cost, functionality, and compatibility (the wiring system and its interface to comfort.

3) comfort uses standard off the shelf sensors such as pirs and door shock sensors etc.

4)/number of inputs would need to be worked out, but a pir in each room, and sensors on all external doors. None of these would be commonned up, so each is am input to comfort. Window sensors could be commonned up within a room.

Have a look at the comfort forum too, but your starting point should bow be working out your comfort components, which would be at least the main board, a Lem expansion board, a velbus ucm, an Ethernet ucm, and door keypads.

Use dualtec pir in each oms with fire or stoves.

Heating using heat pumps, I am not sure of nest is the solution for you for this type of system, you need to thresh that out with your heat pump installer but nest I don't think is designed for heat pump systems

FrankGrimes · 28-12-2017 12:41am

Your very generous wexfordman2, much appreciated. I'm in Dublin, in-laws in the West and baby #3 on the way so window to swing down to Cork is minimal!

I've been doing a far bit of reading up on Comfort and like what I see, good info on their website resources section (e.g. 99 slides from Comfort II training session in 2015) and various guides on the website give a lot of answers I needed.

They make it clear you can use normal alarm cable (8 cores best) and any burglar alarm components which is fantastic - expands options, increases reliability of the sensors that'll be used for home automation (in addition to security) and is cheaper than zwave components. So I can just go to a supplier like CPC Farnell here and get ideas for components such as PIRs, magnetic sensors, shock sensors, beam sensors etc. and anything that works with a normal alarm works with Comfort? That's sweet if so.

Looks like max inputs/outputs is 96. Given the level of items I'm planning, that may be a constraint, but I haven't fully figured out what the RIO (Remote Input Output) functionality is - that gives an extra >100 inputs/outputs but they can't be alarm sensors, so seems you could have it handling say relays for sockets directly but not counting towards alarm logic - though as I'll have Velbus managing that stuff I don't need to utilise what would be otherwise quite beneficial functionality? And no restriction on number of items Velbus manages, it's just anything directly controlled by Comfort?

The site also made it clear Comfort can have up to 8 expansion modules, they are not mutually exclusive. So I'll have UCM/GSM, UCM/Ethernet (think UCM/USB is redundant if you have ethernet?), the Velbus expansion board, the zwave expansion board and then figure out the number of local and slave expansion boards I need once I've done my full itinerary list.

Does Comfort have full 2-way control of Velbus (i.e. a Velbus sensor can trigger alarm, and Comfort can turn on/off Velbus lights etc.)? Think it does though wording on the slides was a little ambiguous, just want to confirm.

Do I need a normal analog landline (wasn't planning on having one but will add if the functionality is worth it)? Or once I have the GSM addon am I covered (guessing a pay-as-you-go SIM covers that)? If someone wants to cut my broadband cable and use a GSM jammer, they're determined (and rare) thieves so they're not going to be stopped by any alarm so not too worried about leaving out landline (as GSM and email/app notifications gives outbound notification over 2 protocols, don't feel 3rd is necessary).

Can you let me know (PM if preferrable) where you got your Velbus kit and rough price as I can't find much online other than a contact request form on their website?

Gotta say, absolutely loving the sound of Comfort + Velbus so far - both in terms of functionality and the reliability you have flagged....something that just works all the time is a big benefit in this realm. Enjoying the research trail so far!

bk · 28-12-2017 1:43am

Just reading a bit about the Comfort system and seems cool.

If I'm not mistaken, you can have it connect to SmartThings to trigger routines in SmartThings and to allow you to use the alarm sensors in Smart Things.

So for instance, if the alarm detects an intrusion, it can do what an alarm is supposed to do, turn on the siren/bell, send you a notification, etc. But it can also inform smartthings, so that Smart Things can for instance turn on Philips Hue lights, play sirens through speakers etc.

Also it seems it can notify ST of events on it's inputs, for instance a PIR in a room detects motion, it tells ST and ST triggers Hue lights, etc.

Finally you can even arm/disarm the system via ST.

This is exactly what I think I would want from an Alarm System in terms of Home Automation. Work as a self contained, solid alarm system, but also play nice with other HA ecosystems via API's.

It seems it can also directly interface with other HA devices such as lights using Z-Wave, etc., though that is something I can prefer my security system not do. I'd rather let each ecosystem do what they do best, but also then "integrate" with one another over API's.

But the SmartThings integration seems exactly the type of integration I'd want from an alarm system.

wexfordman2 · 28-12-2017 12:10pm

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Your very generous wexfordman2, much appreciated. I'm in Dublin, in-laws in the West and baby #3 on the way so window to swing down to Cork is minimal!

I've been doing a far bit of reading up on Comfort and like what I see, good info on their website resources section (e.g. 99 slides from Comfort II training session in 2015) and various guides on the website give a lot of answers I needed.

They make it clear you can use normal alarm cable (8 cores best) and any burglar alarm components which is fantastic - expands options, increases reliability of the sensors that'll be used for home automation (in addition to security) and is cheaper than zwave components. So I can just go to a supplier like CPC Farnell here and get ideas for components such as PIRs, magnetic sensors, shock sensors, beam sensors etc. and anything that works with a normal alarm works with Comfort? That's sweet if so.

Looks like max inputs/outputs is 96. Given the level of items I'm planning, that may be a constraint, but I haven't fully figured out what the RIO (Remote Input Output) functionality is - that gives an extra >100 inputs/outputs but they can't be alarm sensors, so seems you could have it handling say relays for sockets directly but not counting towards alarm logic - though as I'll have Velbus managing that stuff I don't need to utilise what would be otherwise quite beneficial functionality? And no restriction on number of items Velbus manages, it's just anything directly controlled by Comfort?

The site also made it clear Comfort can have up to 8 expansion modules, they are not mutually exclusive. So I'll have UCM/GSM, UCM/Ethernet (think UCM/USB is redundant if you have ethernet?), the Velbus expansion board, the zwave expansion board and then figure out the number of local and slave expansion boards I need once I've done my full itinerary list.

Does Comfort have full 2-way control of Velbus (i.e. a Velbus sensor can trigger alarm, and Comfort can turn on/off Velbus lights etc.)? Think it does though wording on the slides was a little ambiguous, just want to confirm.

Do I need a normal analog landline (wasn't planning on having one but will add if the functionality is worth it)? Or once I have the GSM addon am I covered (guessing a pay-as-you-go SIM covers that)? If someone wants to cut my broadband cable and use a GSM jammer, they're determined (and rare) thieves so they're not going to be stopped by any alarm so not too worried about leaving out landline (as GSM and email/app notifications gives outbound notification over 2 protocols, don't feel 3rd is necessary).

Can you let me know (PM if preferrable) where you got your Velbus kit and rough price as I can't find much online other than a contact request form on their website?

Gotta say, absolutely loving the sound of Comfort + Velbus so far - both in terms of functionality and the reliability you have flagged....something that just works all the time is a big benefit in this realm. Enjoying the research trail so far!

Hi Frank

Velbus to comfort is two way, it updates its status to comfort when you activate a switch locally for example.

Check out if z wave is two way for comfort though, why are you adding z wave ?

Comfort for me does most if not all of the automation logic, all my lights are velbus with the exception of 4 Philips hue devices. Using the St RPI interface is what makes all my velbus appear on smart things, and so now also gives me voice control via google home. I say goodnight google and the system turns off all the lights, arms the alarm system to night mode,/and sets up some of the zones to activate lights and not activate alarm (hall, bathroom etc).

Comfort is not what I would call user friendly to program, it takes a bit of getting used to.

In excess of 100 inputs is a lot, I have 24 and use 22 of them, thinking of getting the remaining two to activate my hue lights from the wall switch. If I was to go again, I would add more sensors, but mainly to the windows from a security perspective, I have enough for automation.

My pirs generally turn on lights when its dark and the alarm is not set. They do this based on a timer, so if motion is not detected again within 3 minutes it turns the light off again. This varies from room to room and the timer varies as well.

On some of my internal doors to bathrooms, I have an internal recessed door sensor. The reason is that the bathroom tends to be a room where you sit still for a while with no motion :-). I have the bathroom pir and the bathroom door sensor working so that if the door is closed and the pir activates, it leaves the light on until the door opens again. Worth doing, cos otherwise
people are left sitting in the dark :-).

To make this work better I put chain pulls in the bathroom internal doors so the doors close automatically, makes the logic work better.

I use velbus vmb4ry modules which are 4 relay modules with 4 push button inputs on them which the wall switches are wired to with cat5. These modules are not available anymore, the newer module does not have the pb inputs, so you have to get a vmb7in for your inouts (7 inputs).

Bought mY velbus modules online in the UK will pm you the detail

wexfordman2 · 28-12-2017 12:14pm

Here you go, this is where I bought them, good few years ago now though, they seem to have dropped in price a bit.

http://www.theelectronicsshop.co.uk/contents/en-uk/p354.html#Sidemap

stuartkee · 28-12-2017 1:22pm

I was reading up on the alarm control panel and it can't take shock sensors directly into the panel as it has no analizer board in it so it's a contacts and pir only panel unless you buy another 3rd party component . What's the warranty and is it sold here do they have good tech support as it will be needed . So before it can close my curtain and switch on my light is it a proper alarm that can do what the others do I fear not another gimmick it seems and very importantly is it up to standard ?

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Hi Frank

Velbus to comfort is two way, it updates its status to comfort when you activate a switch locally for example.

Check out if z wave is two way for comfort though, why are you adding z wave ?

Comfort for me does most if not all of the automation logic, all my lights are velbus with the exception of 4 Philips hue devices. Using the St RPI interface is what makes all my velbus appear on smart things, and so now also gives me voice control via google home. I say goodnight google and the system turns off all the lights, arms the alarm system to night mode,/and sets up some of the zones to activate lights and not activate alarm (hall, bathroom etc).

Comfort is not what I would call user friendly to program, it takes a bit of getting used to.

In excess of 100 inputs is a lot, I have 24 and use 22 of them, thinking of getting the remaining two to activate my hue lights from the wall switch. If I was to go again, I would add more sensors, but mainly to the windows from a security perspective, I have enough for automation.

My pirs generally turn on lights when its dark and the alarm is not set. They do this based on a timer, so if motion is not detected again within 3 minutes it turns the light off again. This varies from room to room and the timer varies as well.

On some of my internal doors to bathrooms, I have an internal recessed door sensor. The reason is that the bathroom tends to be a room where you sit still for a while with no motion :-). I have the bathroom pir and the bathroom door sensor working so that if the door is closed and the pir activates, it leaves the light on until the door opens again. Worth doing, cos otherwise
people are left sitting in the dark :-).

To make this work better I put chain pulls in the bathroom internal doors so the doors close automatically, makes the logic work better.

I use velbus vmb4ry modules which are 4 relay modules with 4 push button inputs on them which the wall switches are wired to with cat5. These modules are not available anymore, the newer module does not have the pb inputs, so you have to get a vmb7in for your inouts (7 inputs).

Bought mY velbus modules online in the UK will pm you the detail

wexfordman2 · 28-12-2017 1:42pm

stuartkee wrote: »

I was reading up on the alarm control panel and it can't take shock sensors directly into the panel as it has no analizer board in it so it's a contacts and pir only panel unless you buy another 3rd party component . What's the warranty and is it sold here do they have good tech support as it will be needed . So before it can close my curtain and switch on my light is it a proper alarm that can do what the others do I fear not another gimmick it seems and very importantly is it up to standard ?

Hi Stuart,

There are local installers as far as I am aware, I think one was based in Limerick from what I remember.

Here is a link to some compliance documents, I am not up to date with what these are, but the system is well used in the UK, and has a good number of commercial installers.

http://www.cytech.biz/compliance_with_en5013_pd6662_and_bs8243.html?category_id=126

I have it since I built my house in 2000/2001, and it has been very reliable. Mine is a self install, so from that perspective is not compliant, but I am fairly sure that it fully meets any standards required here if it is professionally installed.

The panel itself has been out nearly 30 years or more also, and technical support, from my experience is excellent, as and end user and an installer (of my own system) Taking a look at the comfort forum will show this for example.

Shock sensors, I dont have any, but perhaps you could explain, as to me, a shock sensor reports back via a simple relay no ? Its a no/nc circuit ?

I've asked the question on the forum anyway as you poked my curiosity :-)

Again, the reason we are discussing this panel, is its functionality with respect to smart homes, interfacing to other standards etc. I think the panel comes into its own when you look at the logic and automation features of it. If the system was professionally installed, I would think the installer would lock down the ability of the owner to change or customise the automation features, but considering the forum qe are in, I think its an ideal device for many here

wexfordman2 · 28-12-2017 2:00pm

Answer just back from the forum in the shock sensor

http://www.comfortforums.com/view_topic.php?id=4825&forum_id=127&jump_to=22755#p22755

It will accept a standard shock sensor and you set the sensitivity for the sensor (with a number of templates already existing), or if it is a sensor with a processor built in, then you wire it up to a zone and set it as a standard alarm type.

Told you support was good, that was a quick reply on their forum :-)

FrankGrimes · 28-12-2017 2:51pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Hi Frank

Velbus to comfort is two way, it updates its status to comfort when you activate a switch locally for example.

Check out if z wave is two way for comfort though, why are you adding z wave ?

Comfort for me does most if not all of the automation logic, all my lights are velbus with the exception of 4 Philips hue devices. Using the St RPI interface is what makes all my velbus appear on smart things, and so now also gives me voice control via google home. I say goodnight google and the system turns off all the lights, arms the alarm system to night mode,/and sets up some of the zones to activate lights and not activate alarm (hall, bathroom etc).

Comfort is not what I would call user friendly to program, it takes a bit of getting used to.

In excess of 100 inputs is a lot, I have 24 and use 22 of them, thinking of getting the remaining two to activate my hue lights from the wall switch. If I was to go again, I would add more sensors, but mainly to the windows from a security perspective, I have enough for automation.

My pirs generally turn on lights when its dark and the alarm is not set. They do this based on a timer, so if motion is not detected again within 3 minutes it turns the light off again. This varies from room to room and the timer varies as well.

On some of my internal doors to bathrooms, I have an internal recessed door sensor. The reason is that the bathroom tends to be a room where you sit still for a while with no motion :-). I have the bathroom pir and the bathroom door sensor working so that if the door is closed and the pir activates, it leaves the light on until the door opens again. Worth doing, cos otherwise
people are left sitting in the dark :-).

To make this work better I put chain pulls in the bathroom internal doors so the doors close automatically, makes the logic work better.

I use velbus vmb4ry modules which are 4 relay modules with 4 push button inputs on them which the wall switches are wired to with cat5. These modules are not available anymore, the newer module does not have the pb inputs, so you have to get a vmb7in for your inouts (7 inputs).

Bought mY velbus modules online in the UK will pm you the detail

Very informative, thanks. I'm adding Zwave mainly to control the 15-20 places I plan to use Fibaro RGBW modules (internal and external) - if I can find a wired dimmer that'll control these in terms of colour and brightness, that would be great, but will go with the Fibaros I have pre-purchased if not. I'd probably end up adding a few zwave plug-in power sockets for control of particular appliances but also to improve coverage of the zwave network. I guess I just foresee there being new modules that come onstream in the future that'll be zwave (possibly zigbee) and will come out in that protocol before the likes of Velbus.

That said, I wasn't giving much hope to the SmartThings->Comfort interface as I've been disappointed with similar add-ons for other systems in the past. But if it can do what it promises, then I can leave zwave control to SmartThings and then trigger that side of things from there - e.g. use a PIR wired to Comfort to send an ON signal to SmartThings to switch on the garden LED strips controlled via the Fibaro RGBW modules.

So I hear bk's point about having separate systems, but I mainly agree with that in terms of control of the outputs (lights, sockets, heating etc.) being controlled by the HA system - the more the security system's sensors can be reused to send the triggers to the HA system, the better - that for me is the true sweet spot. I'm happy with breaking that model to have Comfort control Velbus directly due to wexfordman's experience in finding this rock solid, and also doesn't seem to be much mention of Velbus on the SmartThings side.

Velbus does appear to be quite affordable vs other options and the news I can use standard alarm sensors with Comfort really opens up possibilities in terms of affordability and functionality. e.g. More options for external PIRs than a HA system offers, can use beam sensors for definitive detection of someone/car entering the driveway and side passageway vs just relying on PIRs (can build an alarm rule (IF drivewaybeam triggered AND (PIR OR ShockSensor triggered within 3mins) == SOUND ALARM)). Can also look into magnetic field detectors that detect a car entering driveway.

Like the tips about internal door sensors - will look into those. What type did you use, wired or wireless? 3 young kids so may hold off auto-close for a few years for fear of little hands getting caught.

I'm going to start on my itinerary list now so I'll have a better idea on what quantity I need, hoping I can get consolidation by having one window sensor provide open/close (magnetic contact) and shock sensing in one unit.

I'm half tempted to start looking up KNX and CBUS to learn how they are wired and to price them up to get a comparison, but on the other hand, it's more important I build out my wiring requirements at this point than spend time on that. Plus, from initial review, seems KNX can be wired in much the same way as Velbus, i.e. back at the fuseboard with DIN rail modules and only CAT5 going to the switches, with the difference being it needs dedicated KNX cable for the bus connecting all the modules at the fuseboard. If that's the case, I can price that up over next few weeks without delaying my first fix wiring.

I was a programmer back in the day so should be fine with the configuration side of things, just need to get the cables in place to enable it all.

28-12-2017 3:31pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

There are local installers as far as I am aware, I think one was based in Limerick from what I remember.

Can you provide me with details of local installers (by PM if you prefer) ??

Great posts BTW

Many thanks.

stuartkee · 28-12-2017 8:34pm

I agree the HA part of the set up.looks great but for it to be a serious panel it has to be able to analyse shock sensors and let them be set via the control panel shocks are the only thing that pick up smashed entry or pre entry if someone is trying to break in just would be a contender if it did all the function of a very basic intruder alarm panel in Ireland

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Hi Stuart,

There are local installers as far as I am aware, I think one was based in Limerick from what I remember.

Here is a link to some compliance documents, I am not up to date with what these are, but the system is well used in the UK, and has a good number of commercial installers.

http://www.cytech.biz/compliance_with_en5013_pd6662_and_bs8243.html?category_id=126

I have it since I built my house in 2000/2001, and it has been very reliable. Mine is a self install, so from that perspective is not compliant, but I am fairly sure that it fully meets any standards required here if it is professionally installed.

The panel itself has been out nearly 30 years or more also, and technical support, from my experience is excellent, as and end user and an installer (of my own system) Taking a look at the comfort forum will show this for example.

Shock sensors, I dont have any, but perhaps you could explain, as to me, a shock sensor reports back via a simple relay no ? Its a no/nc circuit ?

I've asked the question on the forum anyway as you poked my curiosity :-)

Again, the reason we are discussing this panel, is its functionality with respect to smart homes, interfacing to other standards etc. I think the panel comes into its own when you look at the logic and automation features of it. If the system was professionally installed, I would think the installer would lock down the ability of the owner to change or customise the automation features, but considering the forum qe are in, I think its an ideal device for many here

FrankGrimes · 28-12-2017 10:11pm

stuartkee wrote: »

I agree the HA part of the set up.looks great but for it to be a serious panel it has to be able to analyse shock sensors and let them be set via the control panel shocks are the only thing that pick up smashed entry or pre entry if someone is trying to break in just would be a contender if it did all the function of a very basic intruder alarm panel in Ireland

Genuinely interested to hear if you have actually read the answer to this topic on the Cytech thread linked above?

"If the shock sensor has a processor, it should have a dry contact like a PIR so normal settings for zone like door/window can be used

if it is a raw vibration sensor which has very fast transitions then you need a very fast sensitivity setting, see the Vibrartion zone type"

I'm clearly a newbie to this space but from what I've read the past few days, my understanding was a sensor with inbuilt processor applies intelligence that determines what state it communicates back to the control panel, whereas a standard sensor just sends the raw data back to the control panel and the logic defined there determines if it is regarded as above or below the parameters set for triggering an alarm.

All the configuration options I have seen in the Comfort documentation has indicated it is highly configurable, and I'd be surprised if it doesn't provide the functionality you have alluded to. I'm interested to clarify if there is a gap in functionality, or if this is actually covered (as the above quote seems to imply it is).

stuartkee · 29-12-2017 11:29am

No it's not the sensors that does the analysing it's the alarm control panel where you set it up so a NC circuit isn't enough . It sounds like a small issue but it's lack of it means I cannot consider it as an option as yet .
We seem to forget that believe it or not what we do in Ireland is the way to go like has been pointed out before on other threads about this Irish people don't live with bars or shutters on the homes unlike the Spanish or Italian or French where it's common place .
So a permitter system is best that's why the shock sensor was invented by an Irish guy for the Irish market 40 years ago and is still used by 95% of the market. That's of course not including Phonewatches poor effort of an alarm system that's plugged into the socket and cannot ring a bell box on the outside.
It's all heading that way clearly I'm looking forward to more integration in the future.

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Genuinely interested to hear if you have actually read the answer to this topic on the Cytech thread linked above?

"If the shock sensor has a processor, it should have a dry contact like a PIR so normal settings for zone like door/window can be used

if it is a raw vibration sensor which has very fast transitions then you need a very fast sensitivity setting, see the Vibrartion zone type"

I'm clearly a newbie to this space but from what I've read the past few days, my understanding was a sensor with inbuilt processor applies intelligence that determines what state it communicates back to the control panel, whereas a standard sensor just sends the raw data back to the control panel and the logic defined there determines if it is regarded as above or below the parameters set for triggering an alarm.

All the configuration options I have seen in the Comfort documentation has indicated it is highly configurable, and I'd be surprised if it doesn't provide the functionality you have alluded to. I'm interested to clarify if there is a gap in functionality, or if this is actually covered (as the above quote seems to imply it is).

Stoner · 29-12-2017 11:31am

bk wrote:

But the SmartThings integration seems exactly the type of integration I'd want from an alarm system.

Yes it looks the business

wexfordman2 · 29-12-2017 12:39pm

stuartkee wrote: »

No it's not the sensors that does the analysing it's the alarm control panel where you set it up so a NC circuit isn't enough . It sounds like a small issue but it's lack of it means I cannot consider it as an option as yet .
We seem to forget that believe it or not what we do in Ireland is the way to go like has been pointed out before on other threads about this Irish people don't live with bars or shutters on the homes unlike the Spanish or Italian or French where it's common place .
So a permitter system is best that's why the shock sensor was invented by an Irish guy for the Irish market 40 years ago and is still used by 95% of the market. That's of course not including Phonewatches poor effort of an alarm system that's plugged into the socket and cannot ring a bell box on the outside.
It's all heading that way clearly I'm looking forward to more integration in the future.

Hi stuart,

I'm curious, what sort if input is required ?

Do alarm panels normally come with no/nc circuits and then separate inputs for shock sensors ?

29-12-2017 12:54pm

stuartkee please correct me if I am wrong but this is what I think he is saying:

Consider a zone on a HKC alarm with only inertia shock sensors installed. For simplicity let's ignore tampers and end of line resistors. When the alarm is armed and a zone is heathy the inertia shock sensor provides a normally closed connection. When someone taps a window the shock sensor vibrates opening and closing the circuit within rapidly. The alarm panel can measure the magnitude of the impact on the window by analysing the makes and breaks of this circuit. Furthermore the panel can be programmed so that it ignore impacts or vibrations below a certain threshold to avoid false / nuisance alarms.

Based on the reply provided by Cytech I believe that stuartkee's concern is that this alarm will activate once there is an open circuit without analysing it and there is no possibility to compensate for a windy day etc.

wexfordman2 · 29-12-2017 1:07pm

2011 wrote: »

stuartkee please correct me if I am wrong but this is what I think he is saying:

Consider a zone on a HKC alarm with only inertia shock sensors installed. For simplicity let's ignore tampers and end of line resistors. When the alarm is armed and a zone is heathy the inertia shock sensor provides a normally closed connection. When someone taps a window the shock sensor vibrates opening and closing the circuit within rapidly. The alarm panel can measure the magnitude of the impact on the window by analysing the makes and breaks of this circuit. Furthermore the panel can be programmed so that it ignore impacts or vibrations below a certain threshold to avoid false / nuisance alarms.

Based on the reply provided by Cytech I believe that stuartkee's concern is that this alarm will activate once there is an open circuit without analysing it and there is no possibility to compensate for a windy day etc.

Yeah, but I am fairly sure cytech stated that it could analyse the input and it can be adjusted, tuned etc ?

stuartkee · 29-12-2017 1:22pm

Yes like 2011 said it's just about the zone having analizer inbuilt into each zone for shocks to be set.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Yeah, but I am fairly sure cytech stated that it could analyse the input and it can be adjusted, tuned etc ?

wexfordman2 · 29-12-2017 1:25pm

stuartkee wrote: »

Yes like 2011 said it's just about the zone having analizer inbuilt into each zone for shocks to be set.

So, to analyse the frequency of shocks and triggers ? I am sure it does this

FrankGrimes · 29-12-2017 1:30pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

So, to analyse the frequency of shocks and triggers ? I am sure it does this

I did a quick search for the Vibration zone type and saw an example in the manual that stated it could be set for a range of sensitivity, e.g. 20ms. So it seems to do exactly what Stuart has been concerned about. Indeed, given it clearly takes the input, it’d be more susprising if such a powerful control panel did not provide this fairly basic functionality, so can we move on from calling it a gimmick now?

29-12-2017 1:54pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Yeah, but I am fairly sure cytech stated that it could analyse the input and it can be adjusted, tuned etc ?

Based on this reply from Cytech I now suspect that stuartkee may be correct. Until I saw this I had a different view.

Can you post on the Cytech forum and ask for clarification? I would be interested to know for sure.
Many thanks

FrankGrimes wrote: »

it’d be more susprising if such a powerful control panel did not provide this fairly basic functionality, so can we move on from calling it a gimmick now?

So would I, but from what I have seen so far the information is inconclusive. To clarify, alarm panels such as HCK can be programmed for gross attack (1 to 9) and pulse count (1 to 9) settings. A gross attack is activated by a single high impact, whereas a pulse count activates with small impacts above a certain frequency.

Let's suppose stuartkee is correct (he may well be), this issue can be resolved by installing:
1) Something like an Aritech Quickbridge for wireless inertia shock sensors.
2) An analyser board for wired inertia sensors.

Both solutions will provide configurable gross attach and pulse count solutions to this panel, so either way not a big deal.

bk · 29-12-2017 3:16pm

Interesting info about shock sensors here:

http://www.diy-alarms.co.uk/pscatalog/en/blog/post/how-useful-are-shock-sensors-in-alarm-systems

arly (circa 1980s) devices used a purely physical method of detecting the vibrations - typically a cup and ball arrangement where the ball would move slightly when the unit received the shock wave. These devices were notorious for being unreliable and difficult to set-up. These early models also needed an analyser to convert the transient signal produced into a signal that could be detected by a hard-wired control panel. The devices were connected to the panel using 4 core cable - 2 for alarm, 2 for tamper. There were no wireless devices at the time.

Modern devices are fully electronic and are tuned to detect the typical frequencies emitted during a forced entry. They can be internally calibrated to the required sensitivity. Hard-wired devices are connected to the control panel using 6 core cable (Double Pole Wiring) or 4 core cable (FSL wiring).

So it would seem that the type of sensor stuartkee is talking about is the more old fashioned way of doing them, but modern shock sensors have their own processors built in, making analysers on the panel unnecessary.

Of course I'm not expert in this, so take the above with a pinch of salt.

wexfordman2 · 29-12-2017 3:24pm

Ok, I can ask on the forum, but can someone give me a clear description of what I need to ask ?

FrankGrimes · 29-12-2017 4:03pm

That's interesting stuff 2011 and bk, thanks both. Discussed with my brother-in-law who as installed alarms for years and he said yes you need to ensure you can configure both the Gross and the Pulse settings, or have a processor in the shock sensor itself (less common in Ireland due to prevalence of HKC which have the logic in the panel, and also more manual to test and configure).

So it seems the question for Cytech is can you define both Gross and Pulse parameters for shock sensors to monitor for both types of attack?

In the event the answer is no, would it be something like this which provides the workaround 2011 alluded to? That's just one example from a quick google, can imagine there are various options, don't look pricey or difficult to install, so hopefully worst case is Cytech don't cover this, but it can be added on relatively easily (one of those small boards per zone)?

wexfordman2 · 30-12-2017 5:04am

Here is the response from the co.fort forum

Shock sensors or vibration sensors detect vibration

Those with a processor will analyse the vibration amplitude and duration and determine if it is a real "shock"
Those without processors give contacts but they will switch on and off very rapidly, and are prone to false alarms, eg a slight tap may cause it to trigger
For comfort to process these select the Vribraton zone type which has sensitivity = 20 ms so it can detect the transitions, but use a Zone Response Vibration Analyser in Default Responses. This makes an alarm if there are 3 activations within 30 seconss

wexfordman2 · 31-12-2017 12:33pm

Frank,

Looks like cytech came back with a detailed reply to your post, see below copied and pasted :-

OK, it seems that HKC does claim "analyser" capability in every zone

However given that the panel inputs accept Open/Close contacts, the analysis capability is limited to measuring the duration and count of pulses, and not the actual strength or amplitude of the vibration.

In that case both Gross and Pulse count settings can be achieved with Comfort, although not under those names.

"Gross" level can be handled by the Zone Type sensitivity setting, from 20 ms to 800 ms (7 levels), is the duration of the activation. Lower values are for higher sensitivity and higher values for lower sensitivity.

Pulse count can be handled by the Vibration Analyser Response eg 3 counts in 30 seconds (both parameters can be changed) in the response. Hence Comfort gives fine tuning of the pulse count and timing compared to those which have fixed levels of pulse count like HKC.

These settings are useful when used with low cost vibration/shock sensors which have a ball and cup design and do not have inbuilt analysers

There are also many other shock sensors with analysers eg https://firesecurityproducts.com/product/intrusion/GS620BN/61841

From that link, it describes exactly how Comfort handles it except Comfort has another adjustable variable of 30 seconds for the pulse counts

"The analysing capability has two separate detection criteria: gross attack and pulse count. The gross attack threshold is designed to react to a single blow, while pulse count alarms when a pre-selected number of smaller shocks, occuring within a 30 second timing interval is reached. Both detection levels can be adjusted so that the installlation can be fine tuned to the environment and fully tested using the walk test facility. This digital signal processing is designed to eliminate false alarms and assure reliable detection of all types of attacks."

Comfort can be used with either type of sensor.

FrankGrimes · 31-12-2017 1:49pm

Thanks for the reminder, impressive level of response from Cytech, that bodes well.

As to the substance of the response, will be interested to hear others' perspectives, but to a layman like me it reads that the Zone Type sensitivity and Vibration Analyser Response settings provide sufficient configuration to ensure shock sensors can be used as part of an effective perimeter security system, very positive news.

31-12-2017 2:19pm

FrankGrimes wrote: »

As to the substance of the response, will be interested to hear others' perspectives, but to a layman like me it reads that the Zone Type sensitivity and Vibration Analyser Response settings provide sufficient configuration to ensure shock sensors can be used as part of an effective perimeter security system, very positive news.

Let’s suppose for argument’s sake that the Cytech panel does not have analysed zones to an acceptable standard, this isn’t really an issue as 3rd party zone analyzers can easily be added.

Most installers in Ireland use HKC. They know these systems inside out and they have proved to be exceptionally reliable. For these reasons there is an understandable reluctance to change and therefore a motivation for some to find fault with other systems.

Remember, if an alarm company installers a number of panels that turn out be be unreliable it can be very costly. They also have to put considerable effort into learning a completely new system. It is much more convenient and less risky to find fault with another system.

KNXTECH · 02-01-2018 12:25pm

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Please note that using a Boards account for commercial purposes is not allowed unless registered with HQ. Please contact hello@boards.ie for further details. Do not advertise your company again until this is sorted.

dudara

FrankGrimes · 03-01-2018 1:13pm

2011 wrote: »

Let’s suppose for argument’s sake that the Cytech panel does not have analysed zones to an acceptable standard, this isn’t really an issue as 3rd party zone analyzers can easily be added.

I think the comprehensive nature of the Cytech response means we do no longer need to suppose: Comfort allows detection of gross and pulse attacks and provides configuration for both parameters. And even if it didn't, 3rd party boards could be used, but for now my Plan A will be to use the inbuilt Comfort functionality.

Quite impressed with the comprehensive and swift responses from Cytech, it bodes well that their customer service is good, which along with the powerful capabilities of their product is a strong combination.

Alarm options?

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