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An Irish Language Mystery

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  • 03-11-2015 3:53pm
    #1
    An Riabhach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭


    This question has probably been asked before.

    Over the Halloween/Samhain period,I was making this point to a good few people.Some found it interesting and strange,some found it very funny,and some found it downright terrifying-to the point of one particular person asking me to stop talking about it.

    Anyway,I was telling them about the Irish word for "mass" which is aifreann-that much they already knew.But when I told them that,when you take away the letter a from aifreann,you are left with the word ifreann,which is the Irish word for "hell",they could scarcely believe it.The only thing between "mass" and "hell" being one small letter..who could blame them?!?!

    Aifreann.
    Ifreann.
    Being an Atheist myself,I don't believe in hell or anything of the sort.But for a long time now I have been intrigued and curious about these two Irish words.
    So I'm just wondering if anyone might know anything about the origin of these two Irish words,and how two almost identical words bar one letter came to mean polar opposite things

    Bhfuil fhios ag éinne céard sa diabhal atá i gceist sa chás seo?? :-):-):-)
    (sorry,couldn't resist...)


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    #2
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    The two words came into old Irish through the use of Latin.

    ifreann is how the old irish pronounced the Latin infernus, which we use well today as "inferno" or "infernal."

    Aifreann is how they tried to say the Latin offerenda which means "things being offered up or sacrificed," which is the original sense of the Mass as an offering of things up to God.

    I take it the 'inferno' it is linked with fire and hell. Hope this helps you.


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    #3
    An gal gréine
    Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭An gal gréine


    One change of letter can have the opposite meaning:

    Sona, saibhir, saoirse, saor, sochar, soiléir and suairc are all positives.

    Dona, daibhir, daoirse, daor, dochar, doiléir, duairc are all negatives and direct opposites.


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    #4
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    I could be wrong, but I'd imagine that second list of words evolved from a contraction of the "s" words (positives) and the prefix "do", meaning im- or in- or not- , and a séimhiú on the s.


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    #5
    An Riabhach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭An Riabhach


    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    The two words came into old Irish through the use of Latin.

    ifreann is how the old irish pronounced the Latin infernus, which we use well today as "inferno" or "infernal."

    Aifreann is how they tried to say the Latin offerenda which means "things being offered up or sacrificed," which is the original sense of the Mass as an offering of things up to God.

    I take it the 'inferno' it is linked with fire and hell. Hope this helps you.

    That does make sense,especially when you look at other words like:

    Deus > Dia
    Diabolus > Diabhal

    There are probably other examples of this which I don't know of-my Latin wouldn't be the best apart from choir songs we had to learn at school!


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    #6
    An Riabhach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭An Riabhach


    An File wrote: »
    I could be wrong, but I'd imagine that second list of words evolved from a contraction of the "s" words (positives) and the prefix "do", meaning im- or in- or not- , and a séimhiú on the s.

    I know that this word doesn't begin with s but would "dochreidte" be an example?


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    #7
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    An Riabhach wrote: »
    I know that this word doesn't begin with s but would "dochreidte" be an example?

    Yup, "dochreidte" is one that I'd think of as a similar example.

    It would need another prefix (in) to make the positive "inchreidte" (believable) so it doesn't work the exact same way. Similar pattern though.


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    #8
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,710 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    Is sochreidte not a word? I have always used that for believable and now I am starting to get embarrassed.


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    #9
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    hullaballoo wrote: »
    Is sochreidte not a word? I have always used that for believable and now I am starting to get embarrassed.

    Well spare those blushes because it is a word and your using it in the right context.


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    #10
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    hullaballoo wrote: »
    Is sochreidte not a word? I have always used that for believable and now I am starting to get embarrassed.

    It seems you're right! I've always used inchreidte, but it looks like both are in the dictionary for believable/credible. :) So, ehh, the silver lining is that we both learn a new word. :o


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    #11
    deirdremf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    An File wrote: »
    It seems you're right! I've always used inchreidte, but it looks like both are in the dictionary for believable/credible. :) So, ehh, the silver lining is that we both learn a new word. :o
    I think the difference is as follows:
    inchreidte means believable
    sochreidte means easy to believe

    indéanta means do-able
    sodhéanta means easy to do

    I hope this is helpful


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