Bills forged/overpriced by flatmate

edlevy · 29-09-2020 1:48am #1

Hello!
Currently, I’m subletting an apartment, contract with the letting agency.
My flatmate (tenant) has always been responsible for the bills. He sends me a screenshot and I transfer the amount accordingly.
However, for the past six months, I've noticed that the design of the font, the arrangement of letters and numbers and the quality of the image have changed from the first bills.
The last three bills from Jul-Sep seem tampered. I contacted Electric Ireland but as I don’t have the account details, they are unable to check.
I used Photoshop and it's clear the parts that reveal forgery (on top of that, the math for the final amount don’t match with the data collected from EI). Probably around 200-300e overpaid.
I sent a message to the agency, but no answer. This will be my last month here, as I plan to move and now I'm afraid of loosing even more money (ie. deposit).
Any suggestions?

Thanks a mil.

bobbyy gee · 29-09-2020 1:56am

The account number is on the bill get the post when bill arrives and open it

Electronic Writer · 29-09-2020 2:08am

bobbyy gee wrote: »

The account number is on the bill get the post when bill arrives and open it

If the post is not addressed to you, don't open it. Opening post could affect you in the future. Confront the person over your concerns and have a witness with you when you do.

lau1247 · 29-09-2020 2:31am

have you been working from home by any chance? Can you use that excuse to get the original copy to 'photocopy' for the purpose of having record to claim WHF Expenses

Home expenses
You can make a payment of €3.20 per workday to an eWorking employee without deducting:

Pay As You Earn (PAYE)
Pay Related Social Insurance (PRSI)
Universal Social Charge (USC).
This payment is to cover expenses such as heating and electricity costs.

Or alternative, use the excuse that you need to apply for [xyz - insert something] that they require proof of utility bill in the last 3 months??

ted1 · 29-09-2020 7:28am

Just take a meter reading and see how it compares to the bill.
Check the unit rate against the EI advertised rates

Browney7 · 29-09-2020 10:19am

edlevy wrote: »

Hello!
Currently, I’m subletting an apartment, contract with the letting agency.
My flatmate (tenant) has always been responsible for the bills. He sends me a screenshot and I transfer the amount accordingly.
However, for the past six months, I've noticed that the design of the font, the arrangement of letters and numbers and the quality of the image have changed from the first bills.
The last three bills from Jul-Sep seem tampered. I contacted Electric Ireland but as I don’t have the account details, they are unable to check.
I used Photoshop and it's clear the parts that reveal forgery (on top of that, the math for the final amount don’t match with the data collected from EI). Probably around 200-300e overpaid.
I sent a message to the agency, but no answer. This will be my last month here, as I plan to move and now I'm afraid of loosing even more money (ie. deposit).
Any suggestions?

Thanks a mil.

So if I get this right, the other person has just changed the final bill number and the breakdowns but didn't bump up the number of units or the unit price? So if you just lay out the numbers you could prove the final bill doesn't match the estimated usage?

If you are certain there is something untoward happening, I'd just call him/her out on it quite frankly in a discussion - don't be a soft touch and don't let them take you for a fool.

edlevy · 29-09-2020 12:02pm

Thanks for all replies!
It's online bill, so I just get a screenshot from his phone. THere's no paper bill.
He adulters the numbers. I will try to share a picture of how I receive the screenshot and how I compared to find the adutleration.
I will ask for the full pdf bills before talkin to him.

edlevy · 29-09-2020 12:07pm

drive[dot]google[dot]com/file/d/1awVyx5XC4Lc_PW56vgEfs1_zp3BcjV2C/view?usp=sharing

Smee_Again · 29-09-2020 12:13pm

edlevy wrote: »

Thanks for all replies!
It's online bill, so I just get a screenshot from his phone. THere's no paper bill.
He adulters the numbers. I will try to share a picture of how I receive the screenshot and how I compared to find the adutleration.
I will ask for the full pdf bills before talkin to him.

Any e-bill I’ve ever got had a pdf version available for download, just ask your housemate to send you the pdf.

Mark Hamill · 29-09-2020 12:36pm

I'm with EI and this what my most recent e-bill (Aug) looks like:

The numbers are all aligned properly, unlike your image, and they are added in the order you suggest in your image (bill-credit+13.5%VAT), so he can't claim that EI has changed how the bills work.

He is your flatmate? I would go to him in person and ask him to bring up the EI account on his computer in front of view.
You can wait for the full pdf if you like, but if he is going to the hassle of editing screenshots, he will probably edit the pdfs too.

Melanchthon · 29-09-2020 12:36pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Any e-bill I’ve ever got had a pdf version available for download, just ask your housemate to send you the pdf.

Just remember you can alter a PDF too though, now the meta data might reveal this, maybe ask someone you know to send you a electric Ireland pdf so you can compare it

Smee_Again · 29-09-2020 12:43pm

Melanchthon wrote: »

Just remember you can alter a PDF too though, now the meta data might reveal this, maybe ask someone you know to send you a electric Ireland pdf so you can compare it

Fair point.

Op should ask for the log in details then.

Mrs OBumble · 29-09-2020 12:48pm

Your house mate is a dumb ( numbers don't add) thief.

Keep your bedroom door locked.

Move out ASAP.

Why do you think you will lose your deposit?

wonski · 29-09-2020 12:49pm

Checked mine and it is all aligned perfectly.

Time for a good chat with your housemate. There is no reason to edit bills at all apart from trying to steal money from you.

I wonder what the bills should be. Are there electric heaters there? For 2 people these bills look high anyway.

893bet · 29-09-2020 12:50pm

Def been altered.

JimmyVik · 29-09-2020 12:54pm

Call the police station and ask them is it a job for them?
Your flatmate is forging documents to get money from you.
Chances are he owes you a lot of money back.

Wizard! · 29-09-2020 1:01pm

edlevy wrote: »

drive[dot]google[dot]com/file/d/1awVyx5XC4Lc_PW56vgEfs1_zp3BcjV2C/view?usp=sharing

This is definitely edited and I don't know if he/she is smart enough to edit the META data. You can try check them if there are any

jimmycrackcorm · 29-09-2020 1:06pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Any e-bill I’ve ever got had a pdf version available for download, just ask your housemate to send you the pdf.

It's very easy to edit a PDF and make changes. If the font is changed then it's an indication of being altered but the new text wasn't entered with the default font and not the existing font already used.

What I don't understand is if the op is de facto paying the bill, why the tenant has access.

Electronic Writer · 29-09-2020 1:10pm

On the other side there is plausibility,

Your house mate may be editing details that he doesn't want you to know because of privacy , ie his own personal data . Ask !

And , the Electricity company can make mistakes aswell .

BringBackMick · 29-09-2020 1:15pm

Good spot.

I'd ask him for a refund of the overpaid bills within 7 days and ask him if everything is okay.

If he doesn't fess up threaten the gardai etc.

Deagol · 29-09-2020 1:24pm

I've compared your bills with my own and yours are certainly a forgery. For me, it's simple - ring the Gardai, it's fraud! It might be a for a stupidly small amount of money but it's still fraud. If he's doing this to you then chances are it's not the first time and / or not the only fraud he's perpetrating.

JeffKenna · 29-09-2020 1:27pm

Either ring the guards or wait until the next bill comes in and refuse to pay it.

Charles Babbage · 29-09-2020 1:30pm

Just say you are concerned that the meter may be faulty or the estimated readings wrong and ask to see the bill with the meter reading.

Electronic Writer · 29-09-2020 1:30pm

There are legitimate reasons to blank areas of a bill and there are errors made in calculating in businesses.

Ok, go to the electrical company and show them a copy of what is being presented to you as one of their bills. Bud the housemate will then have a problem if the electricity company gives a sh't. If they don't because they have the bill paid then claim the fcuker with a small claims application in the courts , bud will have to do something then.

El_Duderino 09 · 29-09-2020 2:08pm

Do t go round the houses by pretending you need bills for work from home claims. It's lying and they will just tell you to use the screenshot.

Be upfront and aggressively honest. You noticed some irregularities in the screenshots and you'd like to sit down with them and review the bills on the account.

If they're guilty (and I think it's pretty clear they are) then they'll try to fob you off for as long as possible.

Explain you can't pay any more bills without seeing the original bill in its original form by clicking through the supplier website.

They'll have no choice but to give loads of guff and make it seem that you're being unreasonable, accusing them of stealing etc. Don't take any guff. You need to see the original bills through the website downloaded in front of you (not pre downloaded ones that they might have doctored).

Offer to do it through your laptop to make sure they're not downloading the real bill and opening doctored bills from their hard drive.

It would be really embarrassing to be caught stealing in this way so they'll have no choice but to get aggressive. Just stuck wihh it because wanting to see original bills is perfectly reasonable. Sh1t situation to find yourself in

ronaneire · 29-09-2020 2:18pm

They don't add up! As you've shown the when you include the vat at 13.5%.

beachhead · 29-09-2020 2:52pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I'm with EI and this what my most recent e-bill (Aug) looks like:

The numbers are all aligned properly, unlike your image, and they are added in the order you suggest in your image (bill-credit+13.5%VAT), so he can't claim that EI has changed how the bills work.

He is your flatmate? I would go to him in person and ask him to bring up the EI account on his computer in front of view.
You can wait for the full pdf if you like, but if he is going to the hassle of editing screenshots, he will probably edit the pdfs too.

Mark,how do you get so much rebate credit on your bill.My average is the same - e105 but only credit is e1.03-1.80 range.If,it spikes to e140 the credit is never over e2.00 Does D/D or gas&elec combined make a difference to rebate.I always pay b4 the due date but rarely on receipt of the bill.The bill can dated 4 to 7 days previously on receipt.

Mark Hamill · 29-09-2020 2:57pm

Electronic Writer wrote: »

There are legitimate reasons to blank areas of a bill and there are errors made in calculating in businesses.

Assuming the OP is getting full screenshots of the pdf bill, then the only thing that could conceivably need blanking is the account number. Everything else (name, address, amounts, rates etc.) should be visible.

It's not impossible to have accounting errors on an automated system, but to have both an accounting error and a formatting error at the same time on multiple bills seems unlikely.

billybonkers · 29-09-2020 3:02pm

Time to move OP. You don't want to be living with someone like this.

Be upfront and call them out on it. Get a refund.

Let the LL know too.

Mark Hamill · 29-09-2020 3:04pm

beachhead wrote: »

Mark,how do you get so much rebate credit on your bill.My average is the same - e105 but only credit is e1.03-1.80 range.If,it spikes to e140 the credit is never over e2.00 Does D/D or gas&elec combined make a difference to rebate.I always pay b4 the due date but rarely on receipt of the bill.The bill can dated 4 to 7 days previously on receipt.

I pay by direct debit (5% discount) and have online billing (0.5% discount).
5.5% of €115.11 (my electricity usage charge, not including standing charges/PSO levy) is €6.33.

There is another 3% discount available if you have gas (which I don't).

Mark Hamill · 29-09-2020 3:08pm

edlevy wrote: »

I sent a message to the agency, but no answer. This will be my last month here, as I plan to move and now I'm afraid of loosing even more money (ie. deposit).

Are you reliant on your flatmate in some way to get your deposit back?
If that's why you are afraid of loosing money, just make sure he does not take any money from it when you are leaving e.g. if he offers to take your last bills from it.

JeffKenna · 29-09-2020 4:30pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Are you reliant on your flatmate in some way to get your deposit back?
If that's why you are afraid of loosing money, just make sure he does not take any money from it when you are leaving e.g. if he offers to take your last bills from it.

If he's forging bills I wouldn't be trusting him to give back any deposit.

edlevy · 29-09-2020 6:27pm

thanks for the tips, guys!
i've just discovered that the broadband is also being forged lol.
EI won't let me have access as I don't have any information of the account holder's.
contacting threshold, they reccomended me get the originals with garda before talking to him.
i just got a receipt describing all the expenses i've paid and he signed today. tomorrow i will get the originals and then talk to him.

Purple Mountain · 29-09-2020 6:29pm

You could also remind him that companies would take a dim view of their invoices been forged.
You have him over a barrel now.
Could you report him to the agency and ask that he be the one removed?

frozenfrozen · 29-09-2020 6:34pm

tell him you want a grand in cash or you'll go to the guards

TheW1zard · 29-09-2020 6:50pm

Amazing, keep us posted!

edlevy · 29-09-2020 6:55pm

I sent the message with the complete screenshots marked and that was the reply of the agency:

Hi

,

I manage

, your email has been forwarded to me.

I wouldn’t be able to comment on a the below query.

Regards

[...]
Senior Property Manager

El_Duderino 09 · 29-09-2020 7:08pm

edlevy wrote: »

I sent the message with the complete screenshots marked and that was the reply of the agency:

Hi
,

I manage
, your email has been forwarded to me.

I wouldn’t be able to comment on a the below query.

Regards

[...]
Senior Property Manager

What was your query to the property manager?

Unhelpful as their reply is, it's probably not their issue at all.

AlmightyCushion · 29-09-2020 7:24pm

Purple Mountain wrote: »

You could also remind him that companies would take a dim view of their invoices been forged.
You have him over a barrel now.
Could you report him to the agency and ask that he be the one removed?

The companies won't give a shíte if the bills are forged.

OP, tell him to show you the real bills and give you back the money he took or you're not giving him another cent for bills until he does.

alanhiggyno1 · 29-09-2020 7:50pm

Had to follow this thread can't wait for the reaction he gets when caught

Ipro · 29-09-2020 8:03pm

OP, please do a reaction video!

ahnowbrowncow · 29-09-2020 8:19pm

edlevy wrote: »

drive[dot]google[dot]com/file/d/1awVyx5XC4Lc_PW56vgEfs1_zp3BcjV2C/view?usp=sharing

I'm not sure but all those red lines and arrows do seem a bit questionnable.

SetOverSet · 29-09-2020 8:23pm

CRIMINAL JUSTICE (THEFT AND FRAUD OFFENCES) ACT 2001

Forgery.

25.—(1) A person is guilty of forgery if he or she makes a false instrument with the intention that it shall be used to induce another person to accept it as genuine and, by reason of so accepting it, to do some act, or to make some omission, to the prejudice of that person or any other person.

(2) A person guilty of forgery is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or both.

Using false instrument.

26.—(1) A person who uses an instrument which is, and which he or she knows or believes to be, a false instrument, with the intention of inducing another person to accept it as genuine and, by reason of so accepting it, to do some act, or to make some omission, or to provide some service, to the prejudice of that person or any other person is guilty of an offence.

“instrument” means any document, whether of a formal or informal character ...

30.—(1) An instrument is false for the purposes of this Part if it purports—

(e) to have been altered in any respect by a person who did not in fact alter it in that respect,

(2) A person shall be treated for the purposes of this Part as making a false instrument if he or she alters an instrument so as to make it false in any respect (whether or not it is false in some other respect apart from that alteration).

frozenfrozen · 29-09-2020 8:23pm

embedding ops picture....

Electronic Writer · 29-09-2020 10:03pm

Mr.S wrote: »

EI won't deal with OP as he is not the account holder. No exceptions.

I understand that, But, if a supposed EI document is being presented to a person as legitimate in order to get the person to hand over credit, surely there must be some sort of reason then for EI to follow what is going on.

Mr.S wrote: »

You can see from the screenshot that it's been (badly) edited, not the name or account number being redacted.

What I can see from the screenshot is that OP has presented us with something that has many questions in my mind. There are two main parts, the upper and the lower. Who made the upper part and who made the lower part ? Pardon me , but , that is not clear to me , one part seems edited compared to the other , so where did the part that does not look edited come from ?

Mr.S wrote: »

EI will not make mistakes in simple addition of lines on a bill. It's physically not possible with the systems they use. The only complication is when there is a rebate or credit, not in this instance though. It's 100% edited by the account holder.

Everybody makes mistakes. Simple mistakes are not made by people adding 2 + 2 to get 3. They are made by Microsoft Office programmers making slight mistakes in Formulae.

OP should , in my view , give us an in depth explanation of the numbers , I'm not attacking OP or questioning the truthfulness of the person , but a few simple month names or period dates and actual totals expected compared to the mickey mouse one should be presented. If OP went further , do you think OP could just say , here look at that image of a screenshot ? No , OP needs to make a detailed explanation of what is going on.

killbillvol2 · 29-09-2020 10:06pm

Electronic Writer wrote: »

I understand that, But, if a supposed EI document is being presented to a person as legitimate in order to get the person to hand over credit, surely there must be some sort of reason then for EI to follow what is going on.

What I can see from the screenshot is that OP has presented us with something that has many questions in my mind. There are two main parts, the upper and the lower. Who made the upper part and who made the lower part ? Pardon me , but , that is not clear to me , one part seems edited compared to the other , so where did the part that does not look edited come from ?

Everybody makes mistakes. Simple mistakes are not made by people adding 2 + 2 to get 3. They are made by Microsoft Office programmers making slight mistakes in Formulae.

OP should , in my view , give us an in depth explanation of the numbers , I'm not attacking OP or questioning the truthfulness of the person , but a few simple month names or period dates and actual totals expected compared to the mickey mouse one should be presented. If OP went further , do you think OP could just say , here look at that image of a screenshot ? No , OP needs to make a detailed explanation of what is going on.

I think everyone except you understands what's going on.

Electronic Writer · 29-09-2020 10:12pm

killbillvol2 wrote: »

I think everyone except you understands what's going on.

Explain it to me , because I can't find on that screenshot even one identity mark that tells me OP didn't make it ! And , if that's OPS presentation , it's a mess. Go and learn some book-keeping and write a decent page FFS.

ahnowbrowncow · 29-09-2020 10:23pm

Electronic Writer wrote: »

Explain it to me , because I can't find on that screenshot even one identity mark that tells me OP didn't make it ! And , if that's OPS presentation , it's a mess. Go and learn some book-keeping and write a decent page FFS.

Being the internet, we have to take the Op at face value.

Most people can see from the image that there's messing going on with the utility bills, they don't need to write up a report for you.

Electronic Writer · 29-09-2020 10:31pm

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Being the internet, we have to take the Op at face value.

Most people can see from the image that there's messing going on with the utility bills, they don't need to write up a report for you.

Show me one thing in that screenshot that shows any part of it is legitimate . How do you know OP didn't make it all up. And don't play the , they all believe it , crap . Fools seldom differ .

And , if we want to refine our definitions , that's not a utility bill , it's a something or other , undefined !

John Hutton · 29-09-2020 10:36pm

I admire your restraint OP you are doing things properly.

I would have lost the head immediately once I was sure I was being robbed and probably tried to beat the crap out of him

El_Duderino 09 · 29-09-2020 10:44pm

edlevy wrote: »

thanks for the tips, guys!
i've just discovered that the broadband is also being forged lol.
EI won't let me have access as I don't have any information of the account holder's.
contacting threshold, they reccomended me get the originals with garda before talking to him.
i just got a receipt describing all the expenses i've paid and he signed today. tomorrow i will get the originals and then talk to him.

This was a really shrewd move. I'm surprised they agreed to it.

Bills forged/overpriced by flatmate

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