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RBG, abortion and Ireland

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  • 26-09-2020 5:05pm
    #1
    8kczg9v0swrydm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭


    The death of RBG and the fight over the US Supreme Court got me thinking. It is clear that the new nomination is so fiercely contested because of abortion. In a way, the US Supreme Court is the guarantor of abortion - if the judge-made law of Roe v Wade was not in place, it is likely that Trump and Congress would make abortion a thing of the past.

    The way I see it, Roe v Wade was foisted upon the American people. Abortion was a "value" of the liberal elites, who constituted a large part the court, but it was not a value for the majority of American citizens. The American population began to further recoil from it with the discovery of ultrasound scans, which clearly showed that the fetus very early on developed a head, limbs and a heartbeat; that it was a little human being. The stance on abortion is now one of the key factors in US elections and appointments.

    The liberal-controlled mainstream media is doubling down on it's attack on Trump and populism, a movement which is seeking to stand up for the interests of the people against the liberal elites. Another pro-life judge in the US Supreme Court could mean the end of their cherished abortion project. They are going all-out.

    Ireland, on the other hand, seems completely different. We brought in abortion after ultrasound images became available. What the American people are fighting tooth and nail to free themselves from, what had to be imposed on them by the courts because it would never be legal otherwise, we have foisted upon ourselves through a popular referendum.

    I struggle to understand it.


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    #2
    Mr. Karate
    Registered Users Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭Mr. Karate


    They didn't undo Roe V Wade once Kavanaugh was installed. So I doubt they'll do it once Comey is. And once again the Left will end up looking like hysterical idiots again.


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    #3
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    Colton Odd Strife wrote: »
    The death of RBG and the fight over the US Supreme Court got me thinking. It is clear that the new nomination is so fiercely contested because of abortion. In a way, the US Supreme Court is the guarantor of abortion - if the judge-made law of Roe v Wade was not in place, it is likely that Trump and Congress would make abortion a thing of the past.

    The way I see it, Roe v Wade was foisted upon the American people. Abortion was a "value" of the liberal elites, who constituted a large part the court, but it was not a value for the majority of American citizens. The American population began to further recoil from it with the discovery of ultrasound scans, which clearly showed that the fetus very early on developed a head, limbs and a heartbeat; that it was a little human being. The stance on abortion is now one of the key factors in US elections and appointments.

    The liberal-controlled mainstream media is doubling down on it's attack on Trump and populism, a movement which is seeking to stand up for the interests of the people against the liberal elites. Another pro-life judge in the US Supreme Court could mean the end of their cherished abortion project. They are going all-out.

    Ireland, on the other hand, seems completely different. We brought in abortion after ultrasound images became available. What the American people are fighting tooth and nail to free themselves from, what had to be imposed on them by the courts because it would never be legal otherwise, we have foisted upon ourselves through a popular referendum.

    I struggle to understand it.

    In Ireland, the majority of people viewed that a women should have control over her own body, or at least that the 8th was a terrible amendment. What's hard to underst tand exactly?


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    #4
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    The referendum here was passed by quite a large margin, so it’s disingenuous to say it was foisted on us. The Irish people knew exactly what they were voting for, and despite the manipulative underhanded tactics used by the No side, the Yes vote still won.

    It’s certainly a divisive issue in America but the fact of the matter is that abortion is a part of life.
    It has always existed and it always will exist, legal or not. There are references of women seeking and finding ways to end their pregnancies even in ancient times.
    So long as there are women becoming pregnant, there will be a small percentage of women who for their own personal reasons will require a termination.
    These women need to be supported.
    Banning abortion or outlawing it doesn’t make them stop, it just exports the issue to other healthcare systems and forces women to take matters into their own hands, taking dangerous risks at home with no medical care.

    In a country where healthcare is only for the rich, and whose society is riddled with complex poverty issues, outlawing abortion would be a very bad move indeed. Typically the same people in favour of outlawing it don’t support free healthcare, food stamps, or subsidised housing and that speaks for itself, imo.
    Pro-Life, but only when it comes to fetuses. They don’t give a damn about born children and the kind of lives they’ll have.


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    #5
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Colton Odd Strife wrote: »
    The death of RBG and the fight over the US Supreme Court got me thinking. It is clear that the new nomination is so fiercely contested because of abortion. In a way, the US Supreme Court is the guarantor of abortion - if the judge-made law of Roe v Wade was not in place, it is likely that Trump and Congress would make abortion a thing of the past.

    The way I see it, Roe v Wade was foisted upon the American people. Abortion was a "value" of the liberal elites, who constituted a large part the court, but it was not a value for the majority of American citizens. The American population began to further recoil from it with the discovery of ultrasound scans, which clearly showed that the fetus very early on developed a head, limbs and a heartbeat; that it was a little human being. The stance on abortion is now one of the key factors in US elections and appointments.

    The liberal-controlled mainstream media is doubling down on it's attack on Trump and populism, a movement which is seeking to stand up for the interests of the people against the liberal elites. Another pro-life judge in the US Supreme Court could mean the end of their cherished abortion project. They are going all-out.

    Ireland, on the other hand, seems completely different. We brought in abortion after ultrasound images became available. What the American people are fighting tooth and nail to free themselves from, what had to be imposed on them by the courts because it would never be legal otherwise, we have foisted upon ourselves through a popular referendum.

    I struggle to understand it.

    You don’t understand what the word ‘foist’ means, do you?

    The margin of victory indicates that across the political spectrum, this change in the constitution was desired. Across age groups too, bar one.


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    #6
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,095 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Colton Odd Strife wrote: »
    The death of RBG and the fight over the US Supreme Court got me thinking. It is clear that the new nomination is so fiercely contested because of abortion. In a way, the US Supreme Court is the guarantor of abortion - if the judge-made law of Roe v Wade was not in place, it is likely that Trump and Congress would make abortion a thing of the past. .

    They can't legislate to ban abortion. Democrats control the House of Representatives and will continue to do so after the next election. The Senate is a toss up on who will have control. Any effort to legislate to ban abortion at a federal level would instantly be unconstitutional due to Roe v Wade.

    If the Supreme Court overturned the decision then abortion would be effectively banned in Republican states but would still be available in Democratic states as legislation on abortion is at state level currently.


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    #7
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    The US absolutely needs tightening up of their abortion laws and hopefully the appointment of Amy to the Supreme Court will go some way to achieving that.


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    #8
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Figures vary but in 1990 abortions reached their highest with about 1.5 million carried out in the US. In 2014 there were about 600k so for whatever reason - likely education plus contraception - the numbers are steadily decreasing.


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    #9
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    The US absolutely needs tightening up of their abortion laws and hopefully the appointment of Amy to the Supreme Court will go some way to achieving that.

    Any particular aspects you have in mind as being in need of tightening or is this a more general 'fewer abortions' sentiment you are expressing?


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    #10
    Billy Mays
    Registered Users Posts: 3,188 ✭✭✭Billy Mays


    A large majority of Americans believe Roe v Wade shouldn't be overturned

    Not that Republicans/the religious right give a fcuk what the majority of Americans want


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    #11
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    If it is overturned all you are doing is making it illegal for poor women. Women with money will travel to a state where it's legal or a country where it's legal.

    So lots of extra children to the people who can least afford it.


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    #12
    bobbyy gee
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭bobbyy gee


    You just take 2 tablets now for abortions under 10 weeks


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    #13
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,562 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    I don't think it's the totemic issue it once was even for US Republicans.

    What the US Supreme Court and RBG has to do with Ireland I don't know.


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    #14
    Mongfinder General
    Registered Users Posts: 1,992 ✭✭✭Mongfinder General


    I don't really get why conservatives in America and Ireland are worried about the abortion regimes in their respective countries. I'm not a supporter of liberal abortion practices but the way I look at it, it's going to be people of a liberal mindset having the abortion in most cases. That means fewer kids being raised with liberal, progressive values. Why would conservatives want to discourage abortion in these cases. Better off just leaving people of that mindset be. They're destroying their own.


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    #15
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Billy Mays wrote: »
    A large majority of Americans believe Roe v Wade shouldn't be overturned

    Not that Republicans/the religious right give a fcuk what the majority of Americans want

    Makes me very glad to live in Ireland where we weren’t at the mercy of a phalanx of judges in deciding this matter. I’ve no problem with it being revisited in a generation either to see if it’s still what society wants.


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    #16
    Montage of Feck
    Registered Users Posts: 3,524 ✭✭✭Montage of Feck


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    The US absolutely needs tightening up of their abortion laws and hopefully the appointment of Amy to the Supreme Court will go some way to achieving that.

    Amy Schumer? America really is fooked.

    🙈🙉🙊



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    #17
    nolivesmatter
    Registered Users Posts: 886 ✭✭✭nolivesmatter


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    The referendum here was passed by quite a large margin, so it’s disingenuous to say it was foisted on us. The Irish people knew exactly what they were voting for, and despite the manipulative underhanded tactics used by the No side, the Yes vote still won.

    It’s certainly a divisive issue in America but the fact of the matter is that abortion is a part of life.
    It has always existed and it always will exist, legal or not. There are references of women seeking and finding ways to end their pregnancies even in ancient times.
    So long as there are women becoming pregnant, there will be a small percentage of women who for their own personal reasons will require a termination.
    These women need to be supported.
    Banning abortion or outlawing it doesn’t make them stop, it just exports the issue to other healthcare systems and forces women to take matters into their own hands, taking dangerous risks at home with no medical care.

    In a country where healthcare is only for the rich, and whose society is riddled with complex poverty issues, outlawing abortion would be a very bad move indeed. Typically the same people in favour of outlawing it don’t support free healthcare, food stamps, or subsidised housing and that speaks for itself, imo.
    Pro-Life, but only when it comes to fetuses. They don’t give a damn about born children and the kind of lives they’ll have.

    While I agree with some of what you say, I do think you're making some very broad generalizations about the No campaign and the people who voted No that could arguably be applied to the Yes side as well.


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    #18
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,248 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    I'm not really sure why it should be a topic of discussion here. I would've thought it's a matter for Americans about how they organise their society.


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    #19
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    nolivesmatter wrote: »
    While I agree with some of what you say, I do think you're making some very broad generalizations about the No campaign and the people who voted No that could arguably be applied to the Yes side as well.

    I’m not at all, the LoveBoth campaign was rife with fake news, skewed statistics and manipulative marketing. They had their supporters pose as doctors and nurses to further spread their agenda and give weight to their position.
    In fact I believe one of their biggest advertisements involved a man posing as a nurse who later turned out to be a hospital porter who worked in the position for just 8 months, which attracted international media attention.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doubts-grow-over-nurse-used-by-anti-abortion-campaign-f37tb0ms9

    Their behaviour was absolutely disgraceful, they were counting on the people falling for their emotionally manipulative and dishonest tactics and it didn’t work.
    None of that applies to the TogetherForYes campaign.
    Anyway this thread isn’t about the Irish abortion referendum so I’ll leave it at that.


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    #20
    nolivesmatter
    Registered Users Posts: 886 ✭✭✭nolivesmatter


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    I’m not at all, the LoveBoth campaign was rife with fake news, skewed statistics and manipulative marketing. They had their supporters pose as doctors and nurses to further spread their agenda and give weight to their position.
    In fact I believe one of their biggest advertisements involved a man posing as a nurse who later turned out to be a hospital porter who worked in the position for just 8 months, which attracted international media attention.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doubts-grow-over-nurse-used-by-anti-abortion-campaign-f37tb0ms9

    Their behaviour was absolutely disgraceful, they were counting on the people falling for their emotionally manipulative and dishonest tactics and it didn’t work.
    None of that applies to the TogetherForYes campaign.
    Anyway this thread isn’t about the Irish abortion referendum so I’ll leave it at that.

    Respectfully we'll have to disagree. You're right this isn't the place for it.


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    #21
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Colton Odd Strife wrote: »
    The liberal-controlled mainstream media is doubling down on it's attack on Trump and populism, a movement which is seeking to stand up for the interests of the people against the liberal elites.

    ...

    Ireland, on the other hand, seems completely different. We brought in abortion after ultrasound images became available. What the American people are fighting tooth and nail to free themselves from, what had to be imposed on them by the courts because it would never be legal otherwise, we have foisted upon ourselves through a popular referendum.

    I struggle to understand it.


    I’m struggling to understand your point too when on the one hand you appear to lament the idea that populism is under attack from ‘liberal elites’ in the US, and then on the other hand you claim you don’t understand the result when decisions in Ireland are made by the people, the very definition of populism, which you claim is under attack from ‘liberal elites’.

    I think it might be worth your while figuring out where you stand on populism first before you confuse yourself any further.


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    #22
    Seamai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭Seamai


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    I'm not really sure why it should be a topic of discussion here. I would've thought it's a matter for Americans about how they organise their society.

    I'm not sure either, we had our referendum, like it or not it's here now, can we just move on? I for one am weary from listening to people arguing over it in this country for the last 40 years.


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    #23
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    nolivesmatter wrote: »
    Respectfully we'll have to disagree. You're right this isn't the place for it.

    My friend lives in the UK. Her husband would be conservative. They were back in Ireland for a funeral during the referendum campaign and her husband was shocked at the state of the NO campaign posters. Absolutely shocked. He could not believe they were even allowed. This is somebody who would not necessarily vote to legalise abortion. My father voted no but came close to abstaining, so disgusted was he with the antics of the NO campaign.

    I personally the NO campaign shot themselves in the foot with the campaign they ran.


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    #24
    francois
    Registered Users Posts: 3,394 ✭✭✭francois


    Rather rambling original post, not sure what point OP is making, beyond some tedious rant about "liberals"


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    #25
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    My friend lives in the UK. Her husband would be conservative. They were back in Ireland for a funeral during the referendum campaign and her husband was shocked at the state of the NO campaign posters. Absolutely shocked. He could not believe they were even allowed. This is somebody who would not necessarily vote to legalise abortion. My father voted no but came close to abstaining, so disgusted was he with the antics of the NO campaign.

    I personally the NO campaign shot themselves in the foot with the campaign they ran.

    Yep, it was pure fear mongering and weird stuff like fake voices to their campaign like the guy who pretended to be a nurse.


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    #26
    Smee_Again
    Registered Users Posts: 2,020 ✭✭✭Smee_Again


    francois wrote: »
    Rather rambling original post, not sure what point OP is making, beyond some tedious rant about "liberals"

    I think the point is that it’s terrible when judges decide that abortion is legal and it should be up to the people to decide, and at the same time it’s terrible when the people decide that abortion should be legal.

    I think the OPs preferred method of lawmaking is whichever bans abortion.


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    #27
    nolivesmatter
    Registered Users Posts: 886 ✭✭✭nolivesmatter


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    My friend lives in the UK. Her husband would be conservative. They were back in Ireland for a funeral during the referendum campaign and her husband was shocked at the state of the NO campaign posters. Absolutely shocked. He could not believe they were even allowed. This is somebody who would not necessarily vote to legalise abortion. My father voted no but came close to abstaining, so disgusted was he with the antics of the NO campaign.

    I personally the NO campaign shot themselves in the foot with the campaign they ran.

    Yeah I probably agree with you for the most part.


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    #28
    RWCNT
    Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    Colton Odd Strife wrote: »
    The death of RBG and the fight over the US Supreme Court got me thinking. It is clear that the new nomination is so fiercely contested because of abortion. In a way, the US Supreme Court is the guarantor of abortion - if the judge-made law of Roe v Wade was not in place, it is likely that Trump and Congress would make abortion a thing of the past.

    The way I see it, Roe v Wade was foisted upon the American people. Abortion was a "value" of the liberal elites, who constituted a large part the court, but it was not a value for the majority of American citizens. The American population began to further recoil from it with the discovery of ultrasound scans, which clearly showed that the fetus very early on developed a head, limbs and a heartbeat; that it was a little human being. The stance on abortion is now one of the key factors in US elections and appointments.

    The liberal-controlled mainstream media is doubling down on it's attack on Trump and populism, a movement which is seeking to stand up for the interests of the people against the liberal elites. Another pro-life judge in the US Supreme Court could mean the end of their cherished abortion project. They are going all-out.

    Ireland, on the other hand, seems completely different. We brought in abortion after ultrasound images became available. What the American people are fighting tooth and nail to free themselves from, what had to be imposed on them by the courts because it would never be legal otherwise, we have foisted upon ourselves through a popular referendum.

    I struggle to understand it.

    What has given you the idea that the majority of American people are against abortion or that they're fighting tooth and nail to free themselves from it?

    Most polls indicate strong support for legalised abortion -

    https://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx


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    #29
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,293 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Colton Odd Strife wrote: »
    The death of RBG and the fight over the US Supreme Court got me thinking. It is clear that the new nomination is so fiercely contested because of abortion. In a way, the US Supreme Court is the guarantor of abortion - if the judge-made law of Roe v Wade was not in place, it is likely that Trump and Congress would make abortion a thing of the past.

    The way I see it, Roe v Wade was foisted upon the American people. Abortion was a "value" of the liberal elites, who constituted a large part the court, but it was not a value for the majority of American citizens. The American population began to further recoil from it with the discovery of ultrasound scans, which clearly showed that the fetus very early on developed a head, limbs and a heartbeat; that it was a little human being. The stance on abortion is now one of the key factors in US elections and appointments.

    The liberal-controlled mainstream media is doubling down on it's attack on Trump and populism, a movement which is seeking to stand up for the interests of the people against the liberal elites. Another pro-life judge in the US Supreme Court could mean the end of their cherished abortion project. They are going all-out.

    Ireland, on the other hand, seems completely different. We brought in abortion after ultrasound images became available. What the American people are fighting tooth and nail to free themselves from, what had to be imposed on them by the courts because it would never be legal otherwise, we have foisted upon ourselves through a popular referendum.

    I struggle to understand it.

    want to kill myself when I read people peddle that plagiarized crap


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    #30
    Acosta
    Registered Users Posts: 2,287 ✭✭✭Acosta


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    My friend lives in the UK. Her husband would be conservative. They were back in Ireland for a funeral during the referendum campaign and her husband was shocked at the state of the NO campaign posters. Absolutely shocked. He could not believe they were even allowed. This is somebody who would not necessarily vote to legalise abortion. My father voted no but came close to abstaining, so disgusted was he with the antics of the NO campaign.

    I personally the NO campaign shot themselves in the foot with the campaign they ran.

    The No side couldn't have done any worse if they had spent none of that Christian dollars and left it to the priests to do all the debates and media appearances. Priests in general are certainly a lot more likeable.
    I was surprised more reasonable conservatives against abortion didn't try to set up a campaign Independent of YD/Iona. They were already toxic after the marriage equality referendum. People knew what they were about after the filth they had on posters hanging outside primary schools.


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    #31
    Asdfgh2020
    Registered Users Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭Asdfgh2020


    Colton Odd Strife wrote: »
    The death of RBG and the fight over the US Supreme Court got me thinking. It is clear that the new nomination is so fiercely contested because of abortion. In a way, the US Supreme Court is the guarantor of abortion - if the judge-made law of Roe v Wade was not in place, it is likely that Trump and Congress would make abortion a thing of the past.

    The way I see it, Roe v Wade was foisted upon the American people. Abortion was a "value" of the liberal elites, who constituted a large part the court, but it was not a value for the majority of American citizens. The American population began to further recoil from it with the discovery of ultrasound scans, which clearly showed that the fetus very early on developed a head, limbs and a heartbeat; that it was a little human being. The stance on abortion is now one of the key factors in US elections and appointments.

    The liberal-controlled mainstream media is doubling down on it's attack on Trump and populism, a movement which is seeking to stand up for the interests of the people against the liberal elites. Another pro-life judge in the US Supreme Court could mean the end of their cherished abortion project. They are going all-out.

    Ireland, on the other hand, seems completely different. We brought in abortion after ultrasound images became available. What the American people are fighting tooth and nail to free themselves from, what had to be imposed on them by the courts because it would never be legal otherwise, we have foisted upon ourselves through a popular referendum.

    I struggle to understand it.

    Who is RGB.....?


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