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Ethiopian Airlines Crash/ B737MAX grounding

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    #1262
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    Mod note: This looks like a thread that might get more traction in Avaition and Aircraft.

    Please fasten your seat belts while I close this thread and take off for Aviation and Aircraft.

    Please note the change of forum and forum rules.

    Buford T. Justice.

    And now it's here, I have merged it in to the considerable thread about the 737 Max that has been running since the crashes that were the start of the firestorm


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    #1263
    Inquitus
    Registered Users Posts: 13,734 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »
    Mod note: This looks like a thread that might get more traction in Avaition and Aircraft.

    Please fasten your seat belts while I close this thread and take off for Aviation and Aircraft.

    Please note the change of forum and forum rules.

    Buford T. Justice.

    And now it's here, I have merged it in to the considerable thread about the 737 Max that has been running since the crashes that were the start of the firestorm

    Not sure what you have merged in here meets the required quality standards, my good man.


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    #1264
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Inquitus wrote: »
    Not sure what you have merged in here meets the required quality standards, my good man.

    A bit of a surprise for original followers of the Aviation & Aircraft thread indeed, I was wondering what was going on when I read the first few new posts :-)

    But I think it was merged by the Aviation & Aircraft mods after the other thread was moved from AH, so I assume the mods here are OK with the legacy posts knowing they come from elsewhere and as they said they will enforce the "local" rules for further posts.


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    #1265
    lfc200
    Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭lfc200


    At what point do Boeing have to cut their losses and stop production on the Max for the foreseeable? I know I've read that they've slowed production but stopping it has to be on the cards


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    #1266
    ZiabR
    Registered Users Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭ZiabR


    It might take a few more airlines to drop their MAX orders altogether for Boeing to sit up and cut their losses on the MAX program. Back to the drawing board for Boeing. Classic case of shoehorning modifications onto an age old design in order to save money and time at a cost to safety. Clowns.

    I personally wont be flying on one, with or without a supposed fix in place.


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    #1267
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    I don't see any indications Boeing are going to stop production of the Max.

    They still largely have the support of their airline customers and are pressing towards recertification. Outside of a few internet forums, most passengers wouldn't know a 737 Max from a Pepsi Max.


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    #1268
    ZiabR
    Registered Users Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭ZiabR


    Graham wrote: »
    I don't see any indications Boeing are going to stop production of the Max.

    They still largely have the support of their airline customers and are pressing towards recertification. Outside of a few internet forums, most passengers wouldn't know a 737 Max from a Pepsi Max.

    That is very true but terrifying at the same time.


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    #1269
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Graham wrote: »
    I don't see any indications Boeing are going to stop production of the Max.

    They still largely have the support of their airline customers and are pressing towards recertification. Outside of a few internet forums, most passengers wouldn't know a 737 Max from a Pepsi Max.

    Even temporarily? Storing them must be awfully expensive and impractical for them and it looks like the best case scenario in terms of resuming flights in the US is December (probably later for the rest of the world). I understand they have workers and a whole supply chain / industrial process which would be impacted, but depending on how much longer this lasts, there must be a point whereby they will have either to stop the assembly line or at least to bring it to near standstill.


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    #1270
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,854 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Shutting down the supply chain and furloughing staff would make the costs of resuming higher; its a difficult decision to make as to which ends up costing them more.

    Gradually slowing down might be the best idea - they already cut the production rate since the grounding, but it was due to engine supply issues from CFM.


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    #1271
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    A more significant slowdown in production is much more likely.

    If nothing else, finding parking spaces for so many aircraft might start to become a problem.


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    #1272
    Captain_Crash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    Ryanair really cant win can they??

    I'm half expecting to see #boycottryanair trending by the end of the day!

    https://twitter.com/BoardingArea/status/1150767631047127040

    https://twitter.com/godsavethepoint/status/1150768049055764480


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    #1273
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,669 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Graham wrote: »
    Outside of a few internet forums, most passengers wouldn't know a 737 Max from a Pepsi Max.


    If that were the case, why would Ryanair bother to rename it?
    I think the 'Max' brand, although not widely recognised, has broader recognition than just on internet fora.
    My brother wouldn't know a Cessna from an A380 but my wife asked me to check she wasn't on a Max earlier this year.


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    #1274
    john boye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭john boye


    Captain_Crash wrote: »
    Ryanair really cant win can they??

    I'm half expecting to see #boycottryanair trending by the end of the day!

    https://twitter.com/BoardingArea/status/1150767631047127040

    https://twitter.com/godsavethepoint/status/1150768049055764480

    The online reaction may be a bit ott.... but they clearly are trying to hide the max branding.


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    #1275
    Captain_Crash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    josip wrote: »
    I think the 'Max' brand, although not widely recognised, has broader recognition than just on internet fora.
    My brother wouldn't know a Cessna from an A380 but my wife asked me to check she wasn't on a Max earlier this year.


    I agree... I could ask someone in the office here which aircraft is it with the problems and they'd say "Jees' I don't know"


    However, should I say "ya know that 737 MAX" and they'd day "Yeah, the one that keeps crashing"



    People may not know it trough their day to day lives, but when the word MAX is said, they'll remember it!


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    #1276
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    josip wrote: »
    If that were the case, why would Ryanair bother to rename it?
    I think the 'Max' brand, although not widely recognised, has broader recognition than just on internet fora.
    My brother wouldn't know a Cessna from an A380 but my wife asked me to check she wasn't on a Max earlier this year.

    a) it costs little to nothing to do it.
    b) for people like those you mention that appear familiar enough to know almost none of the story.


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    #1277
    Captain_Crash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    john boye wrote: »
    The online reaction may be a bit ott.... but they clearly are trying to hide the max branding.


    I read the reaction as this.... Ryanair feel the MAX branding is bad for business so have removed it, but you can be rest assured that the 737-8200 wont see a yard of runway until FR are 10000000% certain its safe.



    However, the reaction they've copped is akin to people thinking they're flying them already and hiding it from passengers... i.e. disguising a dangerous plane from them!


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    #1278
    zom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭zom


    Captain_Crash wrote: »
    Ryanair really cant win can they??

    They have lot of do$$h to pay even mods on boards.ie to move bad information form popular groups like After_Hours to smaller like this one.
    You have do$$h - you create reality...


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    #1279
    john boye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭john boye


    Captain_Crash wrote: »
    However, the reaction they've copped is akin to people thinking they're flying them already and hiding it from passengers... i.e. disguising a dangerous plane from them!

    I know what you're saying but to the average Joe soap that's how it looks on the face of it!


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    #1280
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    zom wrote: »
    They have lot of do$$h to pay even mods on boards.ie to move bad information form popular groups like After_Hours to smaller like this one.
    You have do$$h - you create reality...


    I think you need to be posting this in the Conspiracy Theories forum. This is a forum of people who are actually clued into what's actually going on in the real world.


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    #1281
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,854 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    zom wrote: »
    They have lot of do$$h to pay even mods on boards.ie to move bad information form popular groups like After_Hours to smaller like this one.
    You have do$$h - you create reality...

    To the Conspiracy Theories forum with you.


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    #1282
    zom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭zom


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    I think you need to be posting this in the Conspiracy Theories forum.

    Where you see any "Conspiracy Theories" in my posts?

    Ryanair fly over hundred of million passengers a year and they are about to buy new Boeing 737 MAX recently renamed 737 8200. These are all facts.

    It is not 100% clear why two Boeing 737 MAX crashed and I am not even trying to speculate here, no "Conspiracy Theories" from me.

    I just put information about Boeing recent change of name for their flagship 737 and as I presume most of boaders are Ryanair customers they it will be interesting news for them. No idea why it was removed.


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    #1283
    Inquitus
    Registered Users Posts: 13,734 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    zom wrote: »
    I just put information about Boeing recent change of name for their flagship 737 and as I presume most of boaders are Ryanair customers they it will be interesting news for them. No idea why it was removed.

    That's probably as it was already posted at least twice in this thread.


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    #1284
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    zom wrote: »
    Where you see any "Conspiracy Theories" in my posts?

    Ryanair fly over hundred of million passengers a year and they are about to buy new Boeing 737 MAX recently renamed 737 8200. These are all facts.

    It is not 100% clear why two Boeing 737 MAX crashed and I am not even trying to speculate here, no "Conspiracy Theories" from me.

    I just put information about Boeing recent change of name for their flagship 737 and as I presume most of boaders are Ryanair customers they it will be interesting news for them. No idea why it was removed.


    Ryanair paying mods on boards = Conspiracy theory. Simples. And a mod agreed with me.


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    #1285
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Captain_Crash wrote: »
    I read the reaction as this.... Ryanair feel the MAX branding is bad for business so have removed it, but you can be rest assured that the 737-8200 wont see a yard of runway until FR are 10000000% certain its safe.

    To be honest I doubt Ryanair themselves are going do to much to be "10000000% certain its safe". They will just follow the directions of the the manufacturer and European regulators, if those say the plane is approved to fly in Europe Ryanair will fly it no question asked, and as long as it is grounded by the manufacturer and not approved to fly in Europe Ryanair obviously won't use it.

    Not that it is a bad thing to follow the manufacturer and regulators direction, but your post makes it sound like there is something specific Ryanair would do to be certain it is safe.


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    #1286
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,601 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Graham wrote: »
    A more significant slowdown in production is much more likely.

    If nothing else, finding parking spaces for so many aircraft might start to become a problem.

    Someone else posted on here that Boeing are allowed to make delivery flights. So I am not sure why they're all stacking up at the factory.


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    #1287
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Someone else posted on here that Boeing are allowed to make delivery flights. So I am not sure why they're all stacking up at the factory.

    I don't know what the contract details are, but just from an outsider perspective I don't see why any airline would accept to take delivery of a plane which they can't fly and which will cost them money to store/maintain.

    Also, beyond delivery if I was Boeing I would be very cautious even about any repositioning flight. The slightest incident with any such flight (even a minor one) and the Max is all over the media again as a flawed plane.


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    #1288
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,601 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Bob24 wrote: »
    I don't know what the contract details are, but just from an outsider perspective I don't see why any airline would accept to take delivery of a plane which they can't fly and which will cost them money to store/maintain.

    Also, beyond delivery if I was Boeing I would be very cautious even about any repositioning flight. The slightest incident with any such flight (even a minor one) and the Max is all over the media again as a flawed plane.

    I am not all that sure of the Economics, but while an airline wouldn't take delivery, Boeing can certainly move the planes wherever they want and store them themselves. The cost for them of reducing production is huge - like huge. The late delivery penalties for these planes is massive, and any major halt to production would make every single order on the list late. ~10 years of late deliveries!

    As for the risks? Maybe I am being reckless, but I reckon a Boeing trained pilot who knows exactly what to expect and is specifically trained on how to avoid it can fly them safely.


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    #1289
    kmart6
    Registered Users Posts: 15,172 ✭✭✭✭kmart6


    Ryanair to cut services this winter over Boeing 737 MAX aircraft delays


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    #1290
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    That's an annual thing kmart6.

    Ryanair cut loss making routes over the winter, find 3rd party to blame. If I remember correctly previous years have see the blame directed at DAA, pilots, airport charges, APD.......


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    #1291
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,854 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Graham wrote: »
    A more significant slowdown in production is much more likely.

    If nothing else, finding parking spaces for so many aircraft might start to become a problem.

    They're allowed fly them to other storage, San Antonio is a common one

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-14/boeing-turns-to-texas-to-store-737-max-jets-as-grounding-lingers

    That costs money (parking fees and the flight costs) whereas filling up the carpark was free. They may also need to come back for change integration depending how big the eventual changeset is and what engineering facilities are available at SAT.


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