nicknames

CeannRua · 23-10-2011 10:09am #1

Hi, Lately I've been wondering about individual and family nicknames (the concept of the agnomen) and to what extent people have found they are a help / hindrance / haven't mattered in their genealogy research.

I don't have a specific query really; this is more of a general wondering... I have three different Driscoll families in an area heavy with Driscolls but haven't come across any nicknames in the various written records. I haven't looked into one family properly yet but know that the other two were known as Bawn and Liath. They're all properly just recorded as Driscoll though.

So, has anyone come across any interesting nicknames? Has anyone been able to make use of a change to an agnomen? I'd also be interested in reading some more on this area if anyone can recommend any good articles, books etc.

pinkypinky · 23-10-2011 11:14am

Good question.:)
I know all about them being a hindrance!

My father's great aunt "Cis". I've tried searching for her under every possible full name - she was already living away from home on both censuses so not helpful. I have eventually decided that her name was something else, possibly Mary, and the nickname was short for sister.

Also I recently discovered that Delia was often short for Bridget, particularly when people when to America.

Babyname books and websites will usually give you a derivation. Daisy & Peggy both being short for Margaret comes to mind as not obvious but both reasonably common.

ZombieBride · 23-10-2011 11:48am

I always knew my grandfather as Tony, he even named his first son Tony, but it wasn't until his funeral that I found out he was Thomas. On the other side my father's grandfather was known as George Bernard but his actual name was Jeremiah.

Confusing to say the least.

CeannRua · 23-10-2011 12:05pm

Thanks folks. Another interesting thing is English / Irish translations of names. This is very unscientific but for instance on the 1901 census, nationwide there are 19 men named Padraig (I just checked this spelling of the name) but by 1911 there are 892 of the same name. In 1901, there are zero men called Sean but in 1911 there are 149 (might be missing some with fada issues though). I wonder how much of this can be ascribed to nationalism at the time and people who were always known as the Irish version of their names recording it officially for the first time.

Was there an inclination for people who were known as the Irish version of their name to usually record it in English? For instance, my gg grandfather was known as Tadhg but in every single written record I've seen (10+) he is named as Timothy.

Going back to surnames, my three Driscoll families are all Cork. Various agnomina in the area for Driscoll according to my not very extensive web search are Bohane, Cadogan, Whooley and Minihane which all still occur as surnames in Cork. Has anyone come up against use of agnomina for surnames in their research?

P. Breathnach · 23-10-2011 12:12pm

Where a number of families in an area share the same surname, as with OP's Driscolls, generic family nicknames are sometimes applied to distinguish them. The Healy Rae family are a well-known example.

I was struggling with a number of Kevane/Kavanagh families in a small village in West Kerry, trying to figure which was the parental family of my great-great-grandmother (born about 1820). An uncle, who was brought up a few miles away from the village, told me that we were of the "Kaiser" Kevanes. While he knew that much, he had no idea how our family was connected to them; I was able to combine what he knew with what I had discovered from the written records. I presume that the nickname was created long after 1820. When I met with a resident of the village, he was able to direct me to the house in which there were still Kaiser Kevanes living.

So, as OP suggests, while the family nickname might not enter official records, it can still be helpful in one's research.

Edit: OP's second post arrived while I was typing. I have had to struggle with what happened in Irish-speaking communities 100+ years ago. Names and addresses were anglicised by those who created the records, and anglicisations were far from consistent - hence my Kevane/Kavanagh issue. And then you find the occasional Latinisation, also questionable for accuracy.

genie · 23-10-2011 2:39pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Good question.:)
I know all about them being a hindrance!

My father's great aunt "Cis". I've tried searching for her under every possible full name - she was already living away from home on both censuses so not helpful. I have eventually decided that her name was something else, possibly Mary, and the nickname was short for sister.

Also I recently discovered that Delia was often short for Bridget, particularly when people when to America.

Babyname books and websites will usually give you a derivation. Daisy & Peggy both being short for Margaret comes to mind as not obvious but both reasonably common.

My Great Grandfather's sister was known as 'Cis', her actual name was Catherine. Another relative was known as Nancy, her actual name was Anne. The Delia, may also have been short for Bedelia, a variant of Bridget. My Great Grandmother was known as Jennie, while her actual name was Jane.

I also came across a family where one sister was called Eliza and another was called Elizabeth. It confused the hell out of me until I discovered that they were really two separate siblings! :rolleyes:

pinkypinky · 23-10-2011 6:53pm

The family where the Cis is has 5 daughters, 4 were called Mary something and known by middle names only and the 5th was called Georgina, after her aunt.

carolinej · 23-10-2011 7:09pm

My great grandmother was recorded as Cecelia on the 1901 census, by 1911 she is recorded as Lily. Confusing to say the least. Took me a while to connect Lily with Cecelia when trying to locate her birth cert before census records came online and made it much easier to search for people.

annieoburns · 24-10-2011 9:16am

I have Molly for Mary.

It would be a Catholic tradition to put Mary in a name to have her protection....even boys might have it as a middle name.

Some more obvious ones are usual simplifications such as Ted or Thady for Thadeus and Bart, Bartle or Bat for Bartholomew.

The tradition for reusing names in same family would contribute to use of nickname if they lived nearby so as to distinguish them.

psycho-hope · 27-10-2011 4:00pm

most of my grandmothers family seem to go by there second names or nicknames, infact i have at last county 3 separate official documents for her grandfather with 3 different first names

Dun · 30-10-2011 7:22pm

If you're talking more about family nicknames, they're invaluable where I'm from. My father couldn't tell one Doherty family from another without the nickname, so I'd always have to use them. Doherty's mad common here, but even my own surname, which is a blow-in to Donegal has different branches with different nicknames. In my own case, the nickname on my family is the names of two of my direct line ancestors, stuck together.

CeannRua · 31-10-2011 9:45pm

Dun wrote: »

If you're talking more about family nicknames, they're invaluable where I'm from. My father couldn't tell one Doherty family from another without the nickname, so I'd always have to use them. Doherty's mad common here, but even my own surname, which is a blow-in to Donegal has different branches with different nicknames. In my own case, the nickname on my family is the names of two of my direct line ancestors, stuck together.

I had totally forgotten about this kind of nickname! It might not have been a bad idea if nicknames of this kind had made it into the official records (as well as the surname).

pedroeibar1 · 02-11-2011 11:16pm

CeannRua wrote: »

I had totally forgotten about this kind of nickname! It might not have been a bad idea if nicknames of this kind had made it into the official records (as well as the surname).

They did. In Griffiths several entrants have their nicknames added in brackets to differentiate them from those of the same name in the same townland.

Where it gets difficult is on BMD Registers - for example one lot of South Kerry O'Sullivans are known as the 'O'Sullivan Dorraghy's' (Dark-coloured). It has been known for the clerk to enter 'John O'Sullivan' simply as 'John Dorraghy.' Clearly the best way - John O'Sullivan (Dorraghy) - is rarely, if ever, used.
Kenmare has the O'Sullivan Mountains, and O'Sullivan Masters. Ryans in Tipperary also have similar naming patterns, e.g. Ryan Rody (from ruadh/red).
Rs
P.

CeannRua · 03-11-2011 12:07am

I was responding to Dun's post there. What I thought was meant there, but maybe picked it up wrong, was the type of nickname that comprises the first names of two or more men (usually!) in someone's direct line. So it would be easier to track people who are related than a broader family nickname than something like O'Sulivan Dorraghy...

pedroeibar1 · 03-11-2011 12:42am

CeannRua wrote: »

I was responding to Dun's post there. What I thought was meant there, but maybe picked it up wrong, was the type of nickname that comprises the first names of two or more men (usually!) in someone's direct line. So it would be easier to track people who are related than a broader family nickname than something like O'Sulivan Dorraghy...

I see what you mean - maybe I got it wrong:o. The two male names would link 2 generations, but it rarely goes beyond that - e.g. Seanin Mike/Maidhc, but bring a woman into it and you can have 3, e.g. Jimin Maire Thadhg!:D
P.

CeannRua · 03-11-2011 8:56am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I see what you mean - maybe I got it wrong:o. The two male names would link 2 generations, but it rarely goes beyond that - e.g. Seanin Mike/Maidhc, but bring a woman into it and you can have 3, e.g. Jimin Maire Thadhg!:D
P.

I don't know either... but they're both valid anyway! I've heard up to three names in Ireland as a family nickname. Think it would get a bit confusing after that but then in Spain, two girls I was talking to started to recite their 'surnames.' On asking how many names they have, I was told 'infinito'...

pedroeibar1 · 03-11-2011 10:33pm

CeannRua wrote: »

..........but then in Spain, two girls I was talking to started to recite their 'surnames.' On asking how many names they have, I was told 'infinito'...

FWIW, Spanish women officially keep their maiden names and add them to that of the husband, E G Pedro Eibar Nunez marries Martina Ruiz Gonzalezs so she becomes Martina Eibar Ruiz, (dropping her mother’s maiden name). Their offspring use the added matronymic for official use but ordinarily limit the surname to that of the male parent, so their son Pablo is officially Pablo Eibar Ruiz, but generally is known as Pablo Eibar. The ‘y’ in for e.g. Ortega y Gasset is a tilt of the hat to an old aristocratic practice based on the succession of a surname via the maternal line. There are rules about the forenames also, the first name must be gender specific, but the second can be female, especially from a saint, e.g. Pablo Maria Eibar. Like Ireland, a child may not be given an inappropriate / insulting forename. There are other rules, many of them legal. The introduction of gender equality law allows the female surname to precede the male one. There are many exceptions to the foregoing and it also is different in Catalan family names.
Aristocratic families are prone to go the whole hog and they include many ancestral / titular names at the child’s baptism, but this has no official standing. This is why so many Spanish aristo families have such long names.
Personally I detest the growing incidence of Irish people hyphenating their surnames, a practice that really looks ridiculously pretentious. A law was introduced in Spain to stop a somewhat similar practice (use of ‘de’ to imply noble connections.)
Rs,
P.

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