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How important was Tom Barry in the IWOI?

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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    Folks...

    If this is a thread about Gay Byrne then it should be in the Television forum of boards. Namecalling is not allowed and in any case if there is any more about him the thread will be over.

    Moderator.

    I apologize if I offended anyone. I didn't intend to turn this thread into a debate about Gay Byrne. I merely used the Gay reference to see if anybody else shared this mans views, thankfully that doesn't seem to be case. That's all I wanted to do. And the response of the users on here have been very insightful & interesting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    An Coilean wrote: »
    I would not agree with that assessment, it has been said of Barry that he had the clearest idea of how to beat the British of any IRA officer in Ireland, he freely admited that at the time of the truce the IRA had come no where near even striking distance of a military defeat of British forces, however that is not to say that a military victory was not possible.

    .......

    I think sometimes it is a mistake to assume that because a commander excels at handling a small or medium sized unit that they will be effective handling larger units, and - most importantly - waging a campaign to achieve a strategic outcome.

    No doubt, Barry could lead, organise and fight and inflict damage far out of proportion to the size of his resources, but that doesn't mean he could win. Him and his men, would be almost impossible to defeat, but that isn't the same as being capable of winning.

    History is littered with great commanders who could fight but couldn't campaign (for various reasons) - the classic example is probably Lee, who could make war, as opposed to Grant, a much less gifted general, who could campaign.

    The other factor that is sometimes overlooked is the role of the emergent RAF. If, as seems likely, they would have been given a freer hand in any resumed war, Barry and the other commanders would have found it a different operational environment, but no doubt they would have adapted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I think sometimes it is a mistake to assume that because a commander excels at handling a small or medium sized unit that they will be effective handling larger units, and - most importantly - waging a campaign to achieve a strategic outcome.

    No doubt, Barry could lead, organise and fight and inflict damage far out of proportion to the size of his resources, but that doesn't mean he could win. Him and his men, would be almost impossible to defeat, but that isn't the same as being capable of winning.

    History is littered with great commanders who could fight but couldn't campaign (for various reasons) - the classic example is probably Lee, who could make war, as opposed to Grant, a much less gifted general, who could campaign.

    The other factor that is sometimes overlooked is the role of the emergent RAF. If, as seems likely, they would have been given a freer hand in any resumed war, Barry and the other commanders would have found it a different operational environment, but no doubt they would have adapted.


    That is a fair point, but it should be bourn in mind that the West Cork IRA was a much larger unit than the 100 or so men under Barry's direct command and while largely unarmed, they were handled quite effectivly by the Brigade leadership in the larger war against the British beyond the activities of the Column.

    The question of how the IRA would have faired had they been able to import arms in large numbers, and how leaders like Barry would have coped with being in command of larger units is one that will never be answered, but it should also be rememberd that IRA did not just plan to make units in the active areas bigger, had an arms landing been successfuly staged, plans were in place for much of the landed arms to be distributed to other parts of the country.
    Had the IRA managed to land several thousand rifles, it was not a case of creating a sincle large force in the active areas of Munster under Barry or anyone else, but of extending the war into previously inactive areas to force the British to streach their resources over larger parts of the country and thus relieve the active areas in Munster.
    While Barry could have expected to recieve some arms and ammunition in the event of a successful arms landing, it would have been an increase to a force of several hundred rather than a force of several thousand, the trade off being that it would also have seen a reduction of opposing enemy forces in the Cork area as the British whould have had to counter increased IRA activity over more of the country and could no longer focus on swamping Cork with troops.

    It should be noted that even if this did happen, it would still not bring the IRA anywhere near to parity with the British Forces in Ireland, but it would have allowed for an expansion of the war which the British government simply could not have continued with, it was not a similar case to the North in the 70's where the British could allow the conflict to drag on for decades, the whole of Ireland was united in opposition to the British Governments actions and there was large and mounting public opposition in Britian its self, the British government had from the outset been promising a swift and decisive victory to the British Public, as that promise was shown to be hollow and stories of the atrocities commited in Ireland filtered through to the British public, opinion was turning against the government, the government in power was becoming very unpopular because of the War and the opposition was highly critical of their conduct with regard to Ireland, had the war continued it is in my opinion certain that the British Government would have faced a crisis and it is more likely that they would have lost power rather then being allowed to impliment the measures needed to increase dramatically the troop presence in Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    I don't really like doing what ifs, but in the scenarios described the impact of air power needs to be considered - if the RAF had been brought to the fray in force then they would have enjoyed total air supremacy, meaning they could concentrate on army and ground support.

    It would have made it very difficult for even well armed and organised units to concentrate and attack in force or numbers; it also would have made movement or training in daylight problematic.

    It might also be worth considering that an expansion of the IRA would have introduced previously unencountered problems. A larger more active force requires more frequent re-supply; if it goes beyond being effectively part-time, it requires billeting; if it engages in wider or more prolonged engagements, it needs medical support......and to provide all that would mean gaining, holding and defending territory

    All of which would have compromised its greatest asset, its mobility.

    anyway, thankfully it never happened - even Percival and Monty realised they couldn't inflict a military defeat without going to the sort of extremes that characterised the Boer War, which they lacked the capacity to do.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    If you look at WWII what were the two events that allowed the British and Americans to win the was. One of the most important advantages they had was that they captured the German enigma code machines and they cracked the Japanese codes early in the war.

    This allowed them a massive intelligence advantage, If the reverse had happened how might the war have ended.

    It was the same with the Irish intelligence war in the War Of Independence. Because Collins had a better intelligence set up he could control Dublin if that had ended it would have been near impossible to sustain the war.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    If you look at WWII what were the two events that allowed the British and Americans to win the was. One of the most important advantages they had was that they captured the German enigma code machines and they cracked the Japanese codes early in the war.

    This allowed them a massive intelligence advantage, If the reverse had happened how might the war have ended.

    It was the same with the Irish intelligence war in the War Of Independence. Because Collins had a better intelligence set up he could control Dublin if that had ended it would have been near impossible to sustain the war.

    The two events were qualitatively different.

    The elimination of the Cairo Gang by Collins temporarily removed a threat - no doubt the Cairo Gang would have been followed by another team who, would have been more careful and probably a lot more ruthless in their pursuit of Collins and the leadership.

    The breaking of the German naval and army codes by the British and Polish, and the breaking of the Japanese naval and diplomatic codes by the Americans put the Allies inside the decision processes of the Axis (in some cases) - it gave them an informational advantage that hastened the end of the War, but it wasn't critical to the outcome. As soon as Germany kicked the door in on the USSR and declared war on the US, defeat became an inevitability, it was just a matter of when......


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    An Coilean wrote: »
    There were a few less than savoury incidents in West Cork that make Barry less of a poster boy than Collins, The shooting of spies, the taking of hostages and the Kilmichael 'surrender' incident for example. In his defence it should be said that Barry was a damm sight more humane than the British forces opposing him. Barry was also on the 'wrong' side in the civil war and as such is likely to draw the ire of those with a more partitionist mentality.

    Was the killing of spies not a policy threw out the whole of IRA? And the didn't the 'surrender' that supposedly never happened come from unreliable sources. Or the did anybody else back up Peter Harts claims that this never actually happened?


  • Registered Users Posts: 35 Little_Korean


    tdv123 wrote: »
    Was the killing of spies not a policy threw out the whole of IRA? And the didn't the 'surrender' that supposedly never happened come from unreliable sources. Or the did anybody else back up Peter Harts claims that this never actually happened?

    Liam Deasy, when he came to his own account of the Cork fighting, gave an account of Kilmichael where the 'false surrender' didn't happen.

    To clarify: Deasy wasn't there himself, and was dependant on the account of someone else - name escapes me, alas - who was. Significantly, this account doesn't say that the three IRA casualties in the ambush (including Deasy's younger brother) were killed as part of the Auxiliaries' 'false surrender' - in Barry's account, the Auxiliaries called to surrender, and the three IRA men broke cover to approach them and were immediately shot down, prompting Barry to give the order to resume fighting and take no prisoners. In the account Deasy gives us, the witness doesn't even know that the three have been killed until after the fighting is over.

    Now, Deasy's account doesn't say that the 'false surrender' didn't happen, he just doesn't mention it. Barry was irrate enough to write a rebuttal based on that point, among others, though Deasy had passed away by then.

    At least, that's how I remember it. Any corrections would be gratefully received!


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