Trainee accountant salary

Fungums · 03-07-2018 7:22am #1

Hi,
Have looked in this forum and can’t find any threads recently of what kind of salary to expect as a trainee.

Have looked at salary surveys but they seem vague enough.

What would you expect a trainee to start out on in practice in the likes of Limerick/Galway area?

Also what would be a reasonable study package? Time off etc

Thanks

Alan_007_ · 04-07-2018 1:23pm

Fungums wrote: »

Hi,
Have looked in this forum and can’t find any threads recently of what kind of salary to expect as a trainee.

Have looked at salary surveys but they seem vague enough.

What would you expect a trainee to start out on in practice in the likes of Limerick/Galway area?

Also what would be a reasonable study package? Time off etc

Thanks

First, ask yourself, what would be a decent/ok/acceptable salary for the job.

Then half it. Now you're somewhere close.

In all seriousness though it's a very wide range. For small practice I've heard as low as €10k and as high as €20k, Big 4 pay about €23k afaik.

Fungums · 04-07-2018 5:43pm

Thanks for your reply.

That is very depressing! But has to be done I suppose

heretothere · 04-07-2018 5:48pm

I started on 16k in Dublin in 2014. I went to college with a girl from Donegal she started on 12k!
It's shocking depressing. Study package make sure they are giving you all the recommended study leave for which ever board you choose and they pay for your exams would be it really

Alan_007_ · 04-07-2018 6:09pm

Fungums wrote: »

Thanks for your reply.

That is very depressing! But has to be done I suppose

Oh it is.

At the moment I could walk across the road to McDonald's and get paid more per hour!

Have you been offered anything yet or are you just trying to gauge what you're likely to be making?

Alan_007_ · 04-07-2018 6:10pm

heretothere wrote: »

I started on 16k in Dublin in 2014. I went to college with a girl from Donegal she started on 12k!

Jesus

duffysfarm · 04-07-2018 8:49pm

Have you any idea what the registration, college fees etc cost per student a year? Add this on to the wage to see what you are costing your employer. Also IMO it will take a while before trainees actually start to make money for their employer. Some firms may be better structured than others and make money sooner but in many cases it will be into year 2 of work before you start paying for yourself.

TaxPro · 05-07-2018 9:13am

I started as a trainee in a Big 4 in 2013 on 22,500. If you had a masters it was 23,500. In 2015 the starting salaries rose to 24,500 / 25,500 for a masters. Have since left so am not sure if they’ve risen again. Those salaries would generally apply across the Big 4 in Republic of Ireland.

It’s a very small salary for the work expected of you, and you do really learn to be frugal especially if you’re paying Dublin rent like I was. However, it rises quickly as you go through the years and particularly after you pass your final exams. Also you get a lot of paid time off (in the Big 4) to sit the exams and also get all fees and books paid for.

daretodream · 05-07-2018 9:36am

What kind of salary once qualified then in or outside Dublin? Torn between this an Actuarial for next year's CAO. Sorry to hijack this thread, really appreciate some advice.

ACADasltiv · 05-07-2018 10:12am

I know someone who started out in 2016 and then the average for Dublin was €22k, lower outside of Dublin. The way the market has gone in the last few years though I wouldn't accept anything lower than €20k unless you were stuck. It incredibly hard to get staff now and even harder to get good staff.

It's crap money but once you get the first year or two out of the way you can jump up in salary pretty quickly, especially if you're willing to jump into industry.

jonnybravo · 05-07-2018 10:49am

Good news is that the average salary package in Leinster of qualified staff is €110k!! Just have a lot of pain for the first couple of years!!

Alan_007_ · 05-07-2018 11:09am

duffysfarm wrote: »

Have you any idea what the registration, college fees etc cost per student a year? Add this on to the wage to see what you are costing your employer. Also IMO it will take a while before trainees actually start to make money for their employer. Some firms may be better structured than others and make money sooner but in many cases it will be into year 2 of work before you start paying for yourself.

Without trying to be smart with you, why in the name of God would employers take on trainees if they didn't start to break even until 2 years in of a 3/3.5 year traineeship?

Even if you add in the costs of fees and classes etc, I would imagine it still coats less than hiring somebody full time to do bank recs, VAT and payroll.

And in a way, the trainees themselves are paying for the exam fees. With Chartered, if you leave before your 3.5 years are up, you're made to pay back all educational fees. So this means, even if you have your FAEs passed a year and a half into your training, your firm are going to get a basically qualified accountant (I know you're not qualified at this stage, but the hardest part is out of the way and you're just passing the time after that) for a fraction of the cost. So basically, you pay for it either by paying back your firm, or in your service to the firm.

ams · 05-07-2018 11:11am

jonnybravo wrote: »

Good news is that the average salary package in Leinster of qualified staff is €110k!! Just have a lot of pain for the first couple of years!!

I absolutely wish this was the case (qualified in 2009)! I think a few ppl getting the mega bucks really skew those salary surveys!

heretothere · 05-07-2018 1:09pm

ams wrote: »

I absolutely wish this was the case (qualified in 2009)! I think a few ppl getting the mega bucks really skew those salary surveys!

Ya I'd love to know who is on that sort of salary!! Well, I can guess, and honestly if you offered me €110k per year and I had to work/ be available nearly 24/7 I will keep my much lower salary and get work life balance thank you.

I reckon about €50-55k in Dublin, just qualified €30-€35k, upto €45k in the midlands seems to be about the mark.

Alan_007_ · 05-07-2018 1:25pm

heretothere wrote: »

just qualified €30-€35k

Seriously?

This thread is just depressing me now.

heretothere · 05-07-2018 1:33pm

Alan_007_ wrote: »

Seriously?

This thread is just depressing me now.

It depends where you work. I know the two senior managers in my old practice were on €45k, but they were pretty stingy payers in there.

The money seems to be in industry, my sister done her training in a massive MNC and was on about 50k before she even qualified!

The main thing I think that makes it a great qualification to have though is that you can work anywhere really. My 1st job out of college was on great money, but it was super specific to investment banking. Not really a skill needed outside the big cities.

fishy_fishy · 05-07-2018 1:40pm

heretothere wrote: »

Ya I'd love to know who is on that sort of salary!! Well, I can guess, and honestly if you offered me €110k per year and I had to work/ be available nearly 24/7 I will keep my much lower salary and get work life balance thank you.

I reckon about €50-55k in Dublin, just qualified €30-€35k, upto €45k in the midlands seems to be about the mark.

Seems very low. Trainees in Dublin in big 4 on mid 40s by 4th year. Newly qualified 50-55k seems right.

Alan_007_ · 05-07-2018 1:40pm

heretothere wrote: »

It depends where you work. I know the two senior managers in my old practice were on €45k, but they were pretty stingy payers in there.

The money seems to be in industry, my sister done her training in a massive MNC and was on about 50k before she even qualified!

The main thing I think that makes it a great qualification to have though is that you can work anywhere really. My 1st job out of college was on great money, but it was super specific to investment banking. Not really a skill needed outside the big cities.

Yeah industry seems to be the way to go alright!

myshirt · 05-07-2018 1:44pm

There was a time where you had to pay the practice to train you, and it is something that came back in in the UK from 2009 to 2015ish, albeit for solicitors, but if poor economic times had continued you'd be sure it would have spilled over.

In any event, it's a training allowance, not a salary. There's a time to learn, and a time to earn. Now is a good time to get into Chartered Accountancy. The pass rates are hovering around the 80% mark now, just like pre recession. During the recession they were hovering around the 50%!

heretothere · 05-07-2018 1:45pm

fishy_fishy wrote: »

Seems very low. Trainees in Dublin in big 4 on mid 40s by 4th year. Newly qualified 50-55k seems right.

I don't think I phrases that very well. I meant €50-55k for newly qualified in Dublin and €30-€45k in the midlands. That's what it looks like to me anyway.

areyouwinning · 05-07-2018 1:51pm

I'm working in a small practice on a 9 month placement before my final year at uni(haven't started CAP2s until after). I'm on 23k per annum, which will more than likely increase if I decide to come back to do my training. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think small practices or industry is your best bet for a half decent wage!

Alan_007_ · 05-07-2018 1:56pm

areyouwinning wrote: »

I'm working in a small practice on a 9 month placement before my final year at uni(haven't started CAP2s until after). I'm on 23k per annum, which will more than likely increase if I decide to come back to do my training. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think small practices or industry is your best bet for a half decent wage!

Your situation would be the exception rather than the rule with small practices in my own experience.

If you get offered more to go back there grab onto it and don't let go for dear life!

TitianGerm · 05-07-2018 2:28pm

areyouwinning wrote: »

I'm working in a small practice on a 9 month placement before my final year at uni(haven't started CAP2s until after). I'm on 23k per annum, which will more than likely increase if I decide to come back to do my training. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think small practices or industry is your best bet for a half decent wage!

I was in a large practice outside of Dublin, five years experience and no rush on exams (about to start P levels with ACCA). I was getting one week leave per exam and they paid my fees. My salary was €23,500. The work I do is very good and the draft accounts I produce require very little review work before they are finalised by a manager.

A new person started about 12 months ago, no practice experience and no accountancy exams completed. She was hired on €27,000 (she let it slip in conversation one night how she was finding it hard to live on €27k).

In my annual review I asked to increase my salary to what I was worth, given my experience and quality of work and was told no.

Applied for three jobs the following week and had two offers the following day for more money than I asked for in the previous practice.

Handed in my notice, and in my new job now. Better work environment, more pay and less stressed staff.

Alan_007_ · 05-07-2018 5:34pm

myshirt wrote: »

There was a time where you had to pay the practice to train you, and it is something that came back in in the UK from 2009 to 2015ish, albeit for solicitors, but if poor economic times had continued you'd be sure it would have spilled over.

In any event, it's a training allowance, not a salary. There's a time to learn, and a time to earn. Now is a good time to get into Chartered Accountancy. The pass rates are hovering around the 80% mark now, just like pre recession. During the recession they were hovering around the 50%!

Paying for the privilege of working somewhere is just flat out exploitative, end of story. If that ever comes back it will just ensure that only the well off can afford to become accountants.

Saying that there's a time to earn and a time to learn is all well and good, but most people coming into accountancy already have 4 years worth of college under them, and then have to do another 3/3.5/4 years.

In most other careers the time to earn starts straight after college. Even from reading online, trainees starting in the US can expect to be making at least $50k.

haro124 · 05-07-2018 9:39pm

Big Four is about 24-25k. 7 weeks full CAP1s. 12 for CAP2s and FAEs. I moved to industry after my first year in practice and am on 35k

Tauriel · 05-07-2018 9:45pm

When I started out as a trainee I was on €18k with no financial study support and I had to take any study leave unpaid which was less than a week.

By the time I qualified I was on €24k and actively looking for a new job. Most places I applied to wanted me to take a paycut. I ended up staying where I was for another couple of years.

myshirt · 06-07-2018 1:20pm

Alan_007_ wrote: »

Paying for the privilege of working somewhere is just flat out exploitative, end of story. If that ever comes back it will just ensure that only the well off can afford to become accountants.

Saying that there's a time to earn and a time to learn is all well and good, but most people coming into accountancy already have 4 years worth of college under them, and then have to do another 3/3.5/4 years.

In most other careers the time to earn starts straight after college. Even from reading online, trainees starting in the US can expect to be making at least $50k.

It is exploitative, I agree.

I hear you on the college item as well. That's the model we have in Chartered Accountancy however, and I'd urge trainees to think strategically. Look at it as a training allowance. Not a salary. Look at it as a time to learn, and a time to earn. I was a solicitor before I became an accountant, so trust me I really felt the kick in the stones.

College shows you have a basic level of technical competence that employers can work with; but you've a lot to learn still before you will be adding any value. This isn't the public service. You have to earn your stripes and show you can take that college degree and make it work for the business you are in.

Quality of graduates vary also. For example it is much easier to get a 2.1 in NUIG than it is in UL, thus the UL graduates are generally of better stock. UCD and Trinity graduates are of an even better stock mostly, but of course it's a mixed bag.The important thing is you are hungry.

ggmad · 07-07-2018 10:19am

haro124 wrote: »

Big Four is about 24-25k. 7 weeks full CAP1s. 12 for CAP2s and FAEs. I moved to industry after my first year in practice and am on 35k

Do you get study leave and tuition paid for in your industry role? I'm on 24k (passed CAP1s last year) working in industry on a training contract getting the CAI recommended study leave.

haro124 · 08-07-2018 5:21pm

ggmad wrote: »

Do you get study leave and tuition paid for in your industry role? I'm on 24k (passed CAP1s last year) working in industry on a training contract getting the CAI recommended study leave.

I get them paid for but don't get the same level of study leave. But salary, bonus, health insurance and other perks make up for it!

Max Prophet · 08-07-2018 5:27pm

myshirt wrote: »

It is exploitative, I agree.

I hear you on the college item as well. That's the model we have in Chartered Accountancy however, and I'd urge trainees to think strategically. Look at it as a training allowance. Not a salary. Look at it as a time to learn, and a time to earn. I was a solicitor before I became an accountant, so trust me I really felt the kick in the stones.

College shows you have a basic level of technical competence that employers can work with; but you've a lot to learn still before you will be adding any value. This isn't the public service. You have to earn your stripes and show you can take that college degree and make it work for the business you are in.

Quality of graduates vary also. For example it is much easier to get a 2.1 in NUIG than it is in UL, thus the UL graduates are generally of better stock. UCD and Trinity graduates are of an even better stock mostly, but of course it's a mixed bag.The important thing is you are hungry.

Oh you’ll be hungry alright on those lids !

ggmad · 08-07-2018 5:45pm

haro124 wrote: »

I get them paid for but don't get the same level of study leave. But salary, bonus, health insurance and other perks make up for it!

What kind of study leave did you get for CAP2 and what will you get for FAE out of interest? I would consider moving elsewhere in industry for better salary but probably not much point now seeing as I only have one set of exams left, I would have to pay all CAP1 and CAP2 exam fees back and my contract is up late next year.

Alan_007_ · 09-07-2018 7:58pm

myshirt wrote: »

It is exploitative, I agree.

I hear you on the college item as well. That's the model we have in Chartered Accountancy however, and I'd urge trainees to think strategically. Look at it as a training allowance. Not a salary. Look at it as a time to learn, and a time to earn. I was a solicitor before I became an accountant, so trust me I really felt the kick in the stones.

College shows you have a basic level of technical competence that employers can work with; but you've a lot to learn still before you will be adding any value. This isn't the public service. You have to earn your stripes and show you can take that college degree and make it work for the business you are in.

Quality of graduates vary also. For example it is much easier to get a 2.1 in NUIG than it is in UL, thus the UL graduates are generally of better stock. UCD and Trinity graduates are of an even better stock mostly, but of course it's a mixed bag.The important thing is you are hungry.

With the college thing, I don't understand why it takes so long to become qualified after college. Why is there a need to go to college for 4 years before attempting to become a qualified chartered accountant, when, if you don't do an accountancy related degree at all, it still takes the same 3.5 years. So why the need for the degree at all? Or why not increase the intensity of college so that you're actually qualified at the end of it?

When you say that you have a long way to go before adding any value, I don't necessarily agree with this. How does one not add any value, if, their work is being billed at a multiple of what their pay is, and they come in at or below budget. Especially if there isn't much manager review work needed. Surely that is value adding, no?

Out of curiosity, where would you rank UCC in this list?

Fungums · 09-07-2018 9:36pm

Thanks for all your replies!

I’m just after starting a job in a practice and I have to sign my contract next week but having second thoughts. Salary is €16500 which I knew going in but have just been informed that there’s no paid study leave (can take unpaid time off). They also don’t think I need any courses for the fundamentals (have 7 exemptions already so only two F papers to do).

AppleBottle · 09-07-2018 9:44pm

I started on €18k in a Dublin based firm and had a study package.

Can you negotiate the study package with them? There are resources out there to self study of course but if you would rather do a course might be an idea to see if you can discuss.
Honestly, I’ve never heard of a firm who didn’t offer some kind of study package. But these would have been all trainees in Dublin based firms. I would not have thought it was different elsewhere.

TitianGerm · 09-07-2018 9:51pm

Fungums wrote: »

Thanks for all your replies!

I’m just after starting a job in a practice and I have to sign my contract next week but having second thoughts. Salary is €16500 which I knew going in but have just been informed that there’s no paid study leave (can take unpaid time off). They also don’t think I need any courses for the fundamentals (have 7 exemptions already so only two F papers to do).

Just €9.16 an hour based off a 37.5 hour week and a 48 week working year (52 weeks less 20 days holidays). It's €8.64 an hour if you take that holidays are paid leave.

Alan_007_ · 09-07-2018 10:23pm

I wonder how legal it is to be paid below minimum wage when the employer won't pay for courses or study leave?

TitianGerm · 09-07-2018 10:25pm

Alan_007_ wrote: »

I wonder how legal it is to be paid below minimum wage when the employer won't pay for courses or study leave?

That was my thought and why I highlighted the rate per hour.

capefear · 10-07-2018 12:41am

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/minimum-wage-ireland-2017.html

Would it be your first job, if so the above rates might apply

fishy_fishy · 10-07-2018 8:26am

Sorry but that's a completely insulting package. You can't live off that. Renegotiate the salary or don't take it, but you're worth more than that

ACADasltiv · 10-07-2018 9:28am

Have you talked to any recruiters about trainee roles to see if they have anything suitable? I knew someone looking in Dublin recently and they had the arm bitten off them

I know you're not in Dublin, but even still that package is terrible. The standard study leave for ACCA in practice is 1 week per exam plus the exam day.

heretothere · 10-07-2018 1:45pm

That is an awful offer. If they offered that salary + full study package I'd be saying take it you'll manage the money. You need study leave and college. Are they paying for the actual exams?

Fungums · 10-07-2018 5:36pm

Sorry if I wasn’t clear, he didn’t say no to me doing courses for the exams just that he “didn’t think I’d need them” was more passive than a down right no but he made sure the point came across.

Yes they are paying for the exams and the books.

I think I do need to re-evaluate alright. It’s a lovely atmosphere and I’m happy going into work each day but the pay/training is a big problem.

scheister · 20-07-2018 10:26am

currently Top 4 to BDO/GT are paying 24,500/25,500 starting off in Dublin others try to benchmark off this.

A firm I know in city centre were hiring on 18k in 2015 for trainee roles. You will always get the firm that will try to get away with a little pay as possible. in 2013 when went looking myself a firm in limerick was paying 16k.

spurious · 20-07-2018 10:34am

Is there still the option to go into an office and train direct from school?

My brother did that in the 80s, was paid 40 euro a week for 12 hour days, but it paid off in the end as he flew through the exams, went to London, was headhunted a few times, taken to New York and within about 15 years of qualifying was on seven figures (not counting bonuses) in New York with one of the Big 4. He still misses the biscuit tins full of receipts and invoices.

ACADasltiv · 20-07-2018 11:26am

There is still a school leaver option, however considering the vast majority or new trainees are coming from college I'd say it could be hard to find a firm to take someone straight out of the leaving cert. Unless of course you know a partner in the firm then of course your chances are much higher. One of the Partners in my current firm did exactly that.

fishy_fishy · 20-07-2018 1:27pm

One person in my intake is on the school leaver track. Very difficult to get, and you'd need to be exceptional to begin with... which raises the q of why not go to college?

spurious · 20-07-2018 9:00pm

fishy_fishy wrote: »

One person in my intake is on the school leaver track. Very difficult to get, and you'd need to be exceptional to begin with... which raises the q of why not go to college?

In his case it was the fact he was the third child in an era where college fees had to be paid. Our parents couldn't afford a third set of fees, they could barely manage the second. Born at the wrong time I suppose. He was much brighter and harder working than either of us before him.

fishy_fishy · 20-07-2018 11:54pm

spurious wrote: »

fishy_fishy wrote: »

One person in my intake is on the school leaver track. Very difficult to get, and you'd need to be exceptional to begin with... which raises the q of why not go to college?

In his case it was the fact he was the third child in an era where college fees had to be paid. Our parents couldn't afford a third set of fees, they could barely manage the second. Born at the wrong time I suppose. He was much brighter and harder working than either of us before him.

Yeah, but that's kinda the point I'm making. College is affordable now. Not free, but why wouldn't someone who's really exceptional go in this day and age? So while technically that route does exist, it basically doesn't really.

Alan_007_ · 21-07-2018 12:52pm

fishy_fishy wrote: »

Yeah, but that's kinda the point I'm making. College is affordable now. Not free, but why wouldn't someone who's really exceptional go in this day and age? So while technically that route does exist, it basically doesn't really.

Well if you know that you want to be an accountant when you leave school, why wouldn't you try to start straight into ACCA and be qualified by the time you're 21 (or possibly even 20) instead of going to college and becoming qualified by the time you're 25?

TitianGerm · 21-07-2018 12:56pm

Alan_007_ wrote: »

Well if you know that you want to be an accountant when you leave school, why wouldn't you try to start straight into ACCA and be qualified by the time you're 21 (or possibly even 20) instead of going to college and becoming qualified by the time you're 25?

Do you not need five years experience if you don't have a degree? Four if you're an Accounting Technician and 3.5 years if you hold a degree?

fishy_fishy · 21-07-2018 1:48pm

TitianGerm wrote: »

Alan_007_ wrote: »

Well if you know that you want to be an accountant when you leave school, why wouldn't you try to start straight into ACCA and be qualified by the time you're 21 (or possibly even 20) instead of going to college and becoming qualified by the time you're 25?

Do you not need five years experience if you don't have a degree? Four if you're an Accounting Technician and 3.5 years if you hold a degree?

Think the chartered route takes 5 years for school leavers. So, 5 years and chartered or 6.5 years (with the fun of being FT student for 3) and chartered with a degree. Plus, it's well and good saying start straight out of school, but you'll have to find an employer who will hire you straight out of school.

For the benefit of a better education, opportunity to travel (J1 etc), maturity entering the workplace, ease of finding employment, plus the flexibility that comes with a degree vs leaving cert, most people will find the extra 18 months worth it.

Trainee accountant salary

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