Covid payments for Landlords

Pkiernan · 09-04-2020 5:28pm

The thing that makes it different is that the government has made it illegal to evict tenants for the foreseeable future.
This is a good measure by the way, but surely
In this case, then surely the government should at least partly compensate the landlord.

The government hasn't banned companies from laying off workers.

Nor has it banned utility companies for charging for their services.

noodler · 09-04-2020 5:30pm

If it's your only source of income then get a job.

If it's not then you don't need it.

Bizarre thread.

Gumbo · 09-04-2020 6:44pm

noodler wrote: »

If it's your only source of income then get a job.

Bizarre logic. The same applies to any other employee laid off and in receipt of the C19 payment by that logic.

Donald Trump · 09-04-2020 8:48pm

Gumbo wrote: »

Bizarre logic. The same applies to any other employee laid off and in receipt of the C19 payment by that logic.

Well if you are a "laid off" landlord then sure apply for the payment like anyone else.

I wonder how many whinging on here are the type of leeches renting properties and subletting them to 10 tenants or putting them up on airbnb and now that the arse has fallen out of that they think they need a government bail out.

Too big to fail yiz aren't lads :pac:

handlemaster · 09-04-2020 10:23pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Well if you are a "laid off" landlord then sure apply for the payment like anyone else.

I wonder how many whinging on here are the type of leeches renting properties and subletting them to 10 tenants or putting them up on airbnb and now that the arse has fallen out of that they think they need a government bail out.

Too big to fail yiz aren't lads :pac:

What's your issue with landlords ?

Donald Trump · 09-04-2020 10:35pm

handlemaster wrote: »

What's your issue with landlords ?

No issue with landlords. Fed up listening to part time amateurs moaning though. As if the rest of the populace should pay their mortgage for them so that they get a free house at no risk to themselves.

That ain't the way it works lads and lassies. Risk and reward. If you are happy to take the risk, then take it. If you blindly take the risk without realising it then do your homework the next time.

The reason that most have the houses is that they simply agreed to pay more than the next highest bidder. It's hardly an addition to humanity now is it? If I'm a tout and I get onto ticketmaster and buy 4 tickets for U2 for 50 quid each, knowing I can sell them later for 200 quid each, I haven't added anything. I haven't increased the supply.

Granted there are the odd few who genuinely have a house to rent. Maybe two people got married/moved in together and the houses in negative equity so they weren't in a position to sell. But some posts on here just appear to be people who feel entitled to "free" money.

The only difference between that type of attitude and the dole lifers playing the system and thinking that the state owes them a standard of living is that the former were able to get credit from a Bank.

Be a landlord if you want to be. But understand the risks and own them and don't be moaning about them afterwards if you are one of the unlucky ones.

Graham · 09-04-2020 10:50pm

Mod Note

Donald Trump, improve the standard of your posts or stop posting.

Gumbo · 09-04-2020 10:52pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

No issue with landlords. Fed up listening to part time amateurs moaning though. As if the rest of the populace should pay their mortgage for them so that they get a free house at no risk to themselves.

That ain't the way it works lads and lassies. Risk and reward. If you are happy to take the risk, then take it. If you blindly take the risk without realising it then do your homework the next time.

The reason that most have the houses is that they simply agreed to pay more than the next highest bidder. It's hardly an addition to humanity now is it? If I'm a tout and I get onto ticketmaster and buy 4 tickets for U2 for 50 quid each, knowing I can sell them later for 200 quid each, I haven't added anything. I haven't increased the supply.

Granted there are the odd few who genuinely have a house to rent. Maybe two people got married/moved in together and the houses in negative equity so they weren't in a position to sell. But some posts on here just appear to be people who feel entitled to "free" money.

The only difference between that type of attitude and the dole lifers playing the system and thinking that the state owes them a standard of living is that the former were able to get credit from a Bank.

Be a landlord if you want to be. But understand the risks and own them and don't be moaning about them afterwards if you are one of the unlucky ones.

Replace the word landlord with tenant throughout your post and the same logic apples.

I’m glad I’m not in either scenario but your posts come across as if you have a serious chip on your shoulder.

Lockdown or not, you have to look after your own mental health, constantly posting about your grips with landlords (not just this thread, but most of your previous too) can’t be good for your head.

During these times, we have to ensure we all come out the other side, otherwise, there be nothing for nobody at the end of this.

Donald Trump · 09-04-2020 10:55pm

Gumbo wrote: »

Replace the word landlord with tenant throughout your post and the same logic apples.

I’m glad I’m not in either scenario but your posts come across as if you have a serious chip on your shoulder.

Lockdown or not, you have to look after your own mental health.

I don't think there are amateur or professional tenants.

Anyway I've leave ye to it.

P.S I've never rented (in Ireland) unless you count college accommodation back in the day (where I wasn't technically a tenant). And never rented to anyone else.

Gumbo · 09-04-2020 11:05pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

P.S I've never rented (in Ireland) unless you count college accommodation back in the day (where I wasn't technically a tenant). And never rented to anyone else.

Then maybe you have no idea of how the market works in reality and shouldn’t be commenting on things that you have no experience in.

Your only half way experience with landlords in this country is as a licensee (college digs), many many years ago (as you state). Things are different now. Vastly.

pwurple · 09-04-2020 11:15pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

I've never rented (in Ireland) unless you count college accommodation back in the day (where I wasn't technically a tenant). And never rented to anyone else.

Soooo, with zero experience you put yourself about as an armchair expert. Classic boards.

Donald Trump · 09-04-2020 11:52pm

Gumbo wrote: »

Then maybe you have no idea of how the market works in reality and shouldn’t be commenting on things that you have no experience in.

Your only half way experience with landlords in this country is as a licensee (college digs), many many years ago (as you state). Things are different now. Vastly.

Hi.

I am not the one making investments in the area. If I was, I would investigate it and understand the inherent risks before making an informed decision. After which, I would accept the consequences of that decision.

There is general advice applicable to anyone making an investment. Don't invest more than you can afford to lose or have locked up for extended times. Understand the risks etc. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. If you come and tell me that you will retire next year and you've put 100% of your pension into shares in one electric car manufacturer, I will tell you that that is not a good idea. I don't have to know anything about electric cars market. If you tell me you put 100% into Apple or IBM, I'll tell you the same thing. I don't need to know what Apple's quarterly earnings projections are.

I don't think that it's a secret that tenants sometimes don't bother to pay their landlords for extended periods of time. So if you plan to get into that business, then you need to plan to mitigate and manage the risk of that possibility.

People are calling it their profession. Well so be it, but every business runs the risk of having a defaulting client. And businesses have to put those protections in place and manage those risks. You can't have the state bailing out everyone who has bad luck or didn't put protections in place. If you do, you generate enormous moral hazard.

The system of having many "individual landlords" is inefficient. That's just reality and common sense. And it is far more risky for that individual investor too. If you want exposure to property in your portfolio then perhaps a property investment fund is a better way for you. It's more liquid. The properties will be manged by full time professionals and maintenance people etc. You wouldn't have the satisfaction of being able to call around on the first of the month to collect your rent, but you also don't have the hassle of doing that!

Simple example. You have 100 properties, 100 investors and 100 tenants. 5 of the tenants will default and overhold within the next 12 months.
The first option is that each landlord buys one property and lets it to one tenant. The result is that at the end of year 1, 5 landlords will be in the **** because they were unlucky to get the non-paying tenant.
Second option is for the investors to club together, buy 100 properties and let them to the 100 tenants. At the end of the year each investor had a little less money than they would have had they owned their own specific house and had a full-paying tenant.

pwurple wrote: »

Soooo, with zero experience you put yourself about as an armchair expert. Classic boards.

There is no point coming on here and saying someone is unqualified to comment because they are neither a landlord or a tenant and implying that getting a loan and buying a house somehow makes one a new Oracle of Omaha. I mean it's that type of arrogance that is a large part of the problem. Filling out a form at your bank and getting mortgage approval and outbidding the family wanting that scare resource (same as in my example of U2 ticket tout) might allow you to ride the wave of a bull market so to speak. You might think that you are an expert. But you'll hit a speedbump and learn pretty quickly where exactly your expertise is. You might be fine or you might be in trouble. But if it turns out that you are in trouble because you didn't understand something could happen, then the state should not be bailing you out.

redarmyblues · 10-04-2020 12:03am

handlemaster wrote: »

What's your issue with landlords ?

Spunked everything on horses and drink and never owned anything.

Donald Trump · 10-04-2020 12:08am

redarmyblues wrote: »

Spunked everything on horses and drink and never owned anything.

Sorry to hear that.
I think that there are places you can go to get help with those things
Obviously once the corona lockdown ends

But let us know how you get on. It is never too late to turn things around.

redarmyblues · 10-04-2020 12:09am

Reading the rantings of Donald Trump, great user name it really suits you. Being a Landlord is a business until the tenants don't pay the rent and then it becomes social welfare provision.

Donald Trump · 10-04-2020 12:12am

redarmyblues wrote: »

Reading the rantings of Donald Trump, great user name it really suits you. Being a Landlord is a business until the tenants don't pay the rent and then it becomes social welfare provision.

Feel free to quote where I said any of that. Not sure where you are dreaming about social welfare from

handlemaster · 10-04-2020 8:48am

Donald Trump wrote: »

Hi.

I am not the one making investments in the area. If I was, I would investigate it and understand the inherent risks before making an informed decision. After which, I would accept the consequences of that decision.

There is general advice applicable to anyone making an investment. Don't invest more than you can afford to lose or have locked up for extended times. Understand the risks etc. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. If you come and tell me that you will retire next year and you've put 100% of your pension into shares in one electric car manufacturer, I will tell you that that is not a good idea. I don't have to know anything about electric cars market. If you tell me you put 100% into Apple or IBM, I'll tell you the same thing. I don't need to know what Apple's quarterly earnings projections are.

I don't think that it's a secret that tenants sometimes don't bother to pay their landlords for extended periods of time. So if you plan to get into that business, then you need to plan to mitigate and manage the risk of that possibility.

People are calling it their profession. Well so be it, but every business runs the risk of having a defaulting client. And businesses have to put those protections in place and manage those risks. You can't have the state bailing out everyone who has bad luck or didn't put protections in place. If you do, you generate enormous moral hazard.

The system of having many "individual landlords" is inefficient. That's just reality and common sense. And it is far more risky for that individual investor too. If you want exposure to property in your portfolio then perhaps a property investment fund is a better way for you. It's more liquid. The properties will be manged by full time professionals and maintenance people etc. You wouldn't have the satisfaction of being able to call around on the first of the month to collect your rent, but you also don't have the hassle of doing that!

Simple example. You have 100 properties, 100 investors and 100 tenants. 5 of the tenants will default and overhold within the next 12 months.
The first option is that each landlord buys one property and lets it to one tenant. The result is that at the end of year 1, 5 landlords will be in the **** because they were unlucky to get the non-paying tenant.
Second option is for the investors to club together, buy 100 properties and let them to the 100 tenants. At the end of the year each investor had a little less money than they would have had they owned their own specific house and had a full-paying tenant.

There is no point coming on here and saying someone is unqualified to comment because they are neither a landlord or a tenant and implying that getting a loan and buying a house somehow makes one a new Oracle of Omaha. I mean it's that type of arrogance that is a large part of the problem. Filling out a form at your bank and getting mortgage approval and outbidding the family wanting that scare resource (same as in my example of U2 ticket tout) might allow you to ride the wave of a bull market so to speak. You might think that you are an expert. But you'll hit a speedbump and learn pretty quickly where exactly your expertise is. You might be fine or you might be in trouble. But if it turns out that you are in trouble because you didn't understand something could happen, then the state should not be bailing you out.

Looking at your posts there is on sence in them. It's just one long anti landlord post after another. Renting property is a business where the law and rules keep changing. It's not as you are trying to make out with your zero experience in the sector either as a tenant or landlord. Its waffle really. Best stick to a topic you know somthing about.

Fol20 · 10-04-2020 9:38am

Donald Trump wrote: »

Well if you are a "laid off" landlord then sure apply for the payment like anyone else.

I wonder how many whinging on here are the type of leeches renting properties and subletting them to 10 tenants or putting them up on airbnb and now that the arse has fallen out of that they think they need a government bail out.

Too big to fail yiz aren't lads :pac:

Not all ll get the covid break either. Some of my tenants have given me the heads up they will struggle and won’t be able to pay full rent.

They will eventually pay back everything they owe similar to a mortgage break however when I went to my bank and outlined the situation with specific properties. I was declined.

Stop using emotive terms and provide facts please.

Donald Trump · 10-04-2020 9:45am

handlemaster wrote: »

Looking at your posts there is on sence in them. It's just one long anti landlord post after another. Renting property is a business where the law and rules keep changing. It's not as you are trying to make out with your zero experience in the sector either as a tenant or landlord. Its waffle really. Best stick to a topic you know somthing about.

Hi.

Plenty of laws change. Regulations come in over time. Business environments change etc.

If my posts do not make sense, they are not making sense to you. There are limited options for me to help you with that.

Fol20 · 10-04-2020 9:45am

Donald Trump wrote: »

No issue with landlords. Fed up listening to part time amateurs moaning though. As if the rest of the populace should pay their mortgage for them so that they get a free house at no risk to themselves.

That ain't the way it works lads and lassies. Risk and reward. If you are happy to take the risk, then take it. If you blindly take the risk without realising it then do your homework the next time.

The reason that most have the houses is that they simply agreed to pay more than the next highest bidder. It's hardly an addition to humanity now is it? If I'm a tout and I get onto ticketmaster and buy 4 tickets for U2 for 50 quid each, knowing I can sell them later for 200 quid each, I haven't added anything. I haven't increased the supply.

Granted there are the odd few who genuinely have a house to rent. Maybe two people got married/moved in together and the houses in negative equity so they weren't in a position to sell. But some posts on here just appear to be people who feel entitled to "free" money.

The only difference between that type of attitude and the dole lifers playing the system and thinking that the state owes them a standard of living is that the former were able to get credit from a Bank.

Be a landlord if you want to be. But understand the risks and own them and don't be moaning about them afterwards if you are one of the unlucky ones.

In the same vain, in your day job, have you invested a cure for covid, done anything life changing with your life? If not, your like the other 99pc on earth that just get on with life, provide a service to your employer or for ll to willing and paying tenants so get off your high horse.

If it was so easy to be a ll. why don’t more do it. Yes they get a property because they are the highest bidder. The big issue with your comment though is that you need the money to be the highest bidder. Similar to other people that excel and utilise their abilities as best as possible. If you have surplus cash that enables you to invest - use this to your advantage yet you seem to not even take that into account.

The main difference here is goal posts are being constantly changed. Yes there is risks and rewards but if the laws around this keep changing. Taxation changing and going up 5-10pc. Maintenance costs and laws changing. It’s hard to stick with your original business plan to a degree.

It isn’t “free money”. Ll need a minimum of 30pc of their own cash first. Ll provide a service. So no it’s not free.

Gumbo · 10-04-2020 9:48am

Donald Trump wrote: »

Hi.

Plenty of laws change. Regulations come in over time. Business environments change etc.

If my posts do not make sense, they are not making sense to you. There are limited options for me to help you with that.

When your posts make no sense to one person, we can look at that one person. But when posts make no sense to a large group of people, then unfortunately, it’s the poster that has to be looked at.

As you stated yourself, your own advice might be best followed :

Donald Trump wrote: »

I think that there are places you can go to get help with those things
Obviously once the corona lockdown ends

But let us know how you get on. It is never too late to turn things around.

Donald Trump · 10-04-2020 9:49am

Fol20 wrote: »

Not all ll get the covid break either. Some of my tenants have given me the heads up they will struggle and won’t be able to pay full rent.

They will eventually pay back everything they owe similar to a mortgage break however when I went to my bank and outlined the situation with specific properties. I was declined.

Stop using emotive terms and provide facts please.

Yes, but do you not understand my point about moral hazard?

You are running things correctly. You are managing. It might be difficult but you are managing and you probably have decent tenants and you will hopefully get your back money from them.

If the government implemented a scheme whereby all rents to all landlords were just covered if your tenant did not pay then there is no incentive for you to bother running your things correctly. There is no incentive for you to work out a plan with your tenants. And there is no incentive for your tenants to actually pay either. Why would they bother?

Donald Trump · 10-04-2020 9:50am

Gumbo wrote: »

When your posts make no sense to one person, we can look at that one person. But when posts make no sense to a large group of people, then unfortunately, it’s the poster that has to be looked at.

As you stated yourself, there are places you can get help, after the restrictions of course. So please let us know how you get on.

There are also plenty of free courses online for basic investing and simple risk management. Some are free. You don't need to wait for restrictions to lift.

So please let us know how you get on

Gumbo · 10-04-2020 9:52am

Donald Trump wrote: »

There are also plenty of free courses online for basic investing and simple risk management. Some are free. You don't need to wait for restrictions to lift.

So please let us know how you get on

Why would I need them?

Donald Trump · 10-04-2020 9:55am

Fol20 wrote: »

In the same vain, in your day job, have you invested a cure for covid, done anything life changing with your life? If not, your like the other 99pc on earth that just get on with life, provide a service to your employer or for ll to willing and paying tenants so get off your high horse.

If it was so easy to be a ll. why don’t more do it. Yes they get a property because they are the highest bidder. The big issue with your comment though is that you need the money to be the highest bidder. Similar to other people that excel and utilise their abilities as best as possible. If you have surplus cash that enables you to invest - use this to your advantage yet you seem to not even take that into account.

The main difference here is goal posts are being constantly changed. Yes there is risks and rewards but if the laws around this keep changing. Taxation changing and going up 5-10pc. Maintenance costs and laws changing. It’s hard to stick with your original business plan to a degree.

It isn’t “free money”. Ll need a minimum of 30pc of their own cash first. Ll provide a service. So no it’s not free.

Hi.

I never said that it was easy, nor that it is "free money" (hence the quotes).

However, it appears that for a section of landlords/investors that they expect that it should be. Those are the section that I am addressing in my points. They get into it and realise that it isn't (usually when there is a bumpy patch) and then start moaning. Plenty do run their things professionally and can cope right now. As you said, you are engaging with your tenants and working things out.

I am always reminded of the time of the SSIA's when some people took the equity option that banks were providing. Everything was grand while the market was rising and then it took a dive in the middle and you had all these people claiming that the government should bail them out and pay them back their losses. Because of the option that they had chosen. It was risk and reward. (In the end up, the market recovered before the end of the scheme so it became a moot point)

As regards the "highest bidder" I am not sure of the relevance for that. You recognise that you have to put in some of your own money. Do you think that that money should be free from risk? If no, then you'll accept that, as with any investment, you might lose that. There is no obligation on the state to bail you out if it doesn't turn out how you want it to. My point is again addressed to those who appear to think that any of that risk should be covered by the state rather than them. Do you personally think that they way things should work is that people get a loan from a bank. Outbid the next person and then think that the state should refund them for any losses that they may or may not have done their research on and anticipated? I don't. If you don't either then you agree with me. That's great.

Pkiernan · 10-04-2020 9:56am

This guys posts has absolutely ruined some good discussion on this thread.

Its a real concern for some landlords that they are no longer getting rent, and will have no way to recoup.

This just makes a dysfunctional rental market worse in the long run. It leads to a lower standard of accommodation and to less properties being built, so everyone loses.

overkill602 · 10-04-2020 9:56am

D T is enjoying his isolation noob

celtic_oz · 10-04-2020 10:24am

I would agree with "Donald Trump" if the market was allowed to react freely, it's not.

The government stopped that, rent freezes and no evictions etc etc is government intervention.

If there is government intervention one way then there should be compensation if the intervention causes material loss. Commonsense.

I would love if the government stopped intervening .. for example it would stop me putting up the rent every year as it adversely affects the value of the property if I don't.

Donald Trump · 10-04-2020 10:36am

celtic_oz wrote: »

I would agree with "Donald Trump" if the market was allowed to react freely, it's not.

The government stopped that, rent freezes and no evictions etc etc is government intervention.

If there is government intervention one way then there should be compensation if the intervention causes material loss. Commonsense.

I would love if the government stopped intervening .. for example it would stop me putting up the rent every year as it adversely affects the value of the property if I don't.

I generally don't agree with government intervention but in terms of housing it is there on both sides.

There is government intervention that also acts to the benefit of property owners even though you might not consider that.

There are environmental regulations and planning considerations. Slums and tenements were done away with. Bedsits were also done away with. Those type of regulations prevent a race-to-the-bottom. Some people effectively will do it of course but it's not supposed to be allowed. If I could buy a house close to a university and cram 20 beds into it at 100 quid a month each, then you might not get your 2k a month for your 2-bed with 2 students in it down the road.

I also cannot just buy a field and build a house in it. I cannot just plonk a caravan or a "shed/lodge" at the bottom of someone else's garden (with their permission) and live there. Those are of course very reasonable restrictions.

Housing is also not the only market to be regulated. Taxis for example are regulated in terms of their prices.

Pkiernan · 10-04-2020 11:14am

Donald Trump wrote: »

I generally don't agree with government intervention but in terms of housing it is there on both sides.

There is government intervention that also acts to the benefit of property owners even though you might not consider that.

There are environmental regulations and planning considerations. Slums and tenements were done away with. Bedsits were also done away with. Those type of regulations prevent a race-to-the-bottom. Some people effectively will do it of course but it's not supposed to be allowed. If I could buy a house close to a university and cram 20 beds into it at 100 quid a month each, then you might not get your 2k a month for your 2-bed with 2 students in it down the road.

I also cannot just buy a field and build a house in it. I cannot just plonk a caravan or a "shed/lodge" at the bottom of someone else's garden (with their permission) and live there. Those are of course very reasonable restrictions.

Housing is also not the only market to be regulated. Taxis for example are regulated in terms of their prices.

Thanks for bringing this thread completely off topic!

Covid payments for Landlords

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