Schooled by an E-bike

rubadub · 16-09-2019 11:59am

1bryan wrote: »

the average speed of a dublin commute by bike is around 19km/h. So a limit of 30km/h is a ridiculous suggestion

I have not seen too much complaint about the 32.2km/hr (20mph) limit in the US, certainly not claims that it is ridiculously fast.

I am faster commuting on a clapped out single speed (broken gears!) hybrid than on my ebike, and I am not some skinny fit lad, far from it!

I have said in numerous threads that if the limit was 30 or 32.2km/hr then many would be happy with that and not bother paying to getting the bike derestricted, and the warranty risk etc.

When looking at average speed figures they will dip hugely due to all the stops on a commute, you can see this if people post graphs. I was saying to get the average they should be getting many figures above 25 and bringing it down as 25 or 27km/hr as this is effectively what happens on a heavy ebike, unless going downhill.

1bryan · 16-09-2019 12:22pm

rubadub wrote: »

I have not seen too much complaint about the 32.2km/hr (20mph) limit in the US, certainly not claims that it is ridiculously fast.

how is that, in any way, relevant to what happens here in Ireland? Are you suggesting it's comparing like with like?

which part of the US, specifically do you refer to? Its a big place.

Just to share a recent encounter I've had with an e-bike person - the last 1km of my commute home is uphill. The last part of that hill is ~6% for about 100m (from a set of traffic lights to a roundabout, where it then levels off). A handful of times over the past couple of weeks there's been a lady, whom I'd suggest is mid-to-late-60s, at the lights when I get there. When the lights change, she hares off up the hill, by a bus stop where schoolkids are frequently disembarking. I tried, once, to keep up with her, but not a hope. I'd estimate she's doing 35-40km/h up that 6% slope. I had to laugh at it last thursday when, not only was she there, waiting to kick my ass, but she was smoking a cigarette while doing so.

Anyway, yea, no problem with speed whatsover, cos America

fat bloke · 16-09-2019 12:27pm

Well, presumably buses, trucks and cars also go up that hill at 50+kph past those disembarking schoolkids and pose a much more momentous danger to them. I say fair play to the lady in her 60's getting out of a car and onto a bike, though she obviously needs to tackle the fags next!

1bryan · 16-09-2019 12:28pm

fat bloke wrote: »

Well, presumably buses, trucks and cars also go up that hill at 50+kph past those disembarking schoolkids and pose a much more momentous danger to them

not at that time, no.

beauf · 16-09-2019 12:30pm

1bryan wrote: »

e-bikes that have had their speed limiters disabled, are motorbikes. They have no place on our roads.

So you want motorbikes off the road also then??

1bryan · 16-09-2019 12:30pm

beauf wrote: »

So you want motorbikes off the road also then??

I would absolutely love that, yes

beauf · 16-09-2019 12:32pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

....In particular - absolutely no way should they be in segregated bike lanes. They go too fast.

Lots of aggressive cyclists think its ok to go fast as they want in segregated cycle lanes, or in traffic, on routes with lots of pedestrians. I think they should also be on the road, and pulled over if going too fast.

ted1 · 16-09-2019 12:34pm

Utter Consternation wrote: »

They can't go faster than 25kmh or be mechanically propelled.

https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20E%20Bikes%20and%20Pedelecs%20and%20battery%20Scooters.pdf

They can, but legally can’t.

rubadub · 16-09-2019 1:08pm

1bryan wrote: »

how is that, in any way, relevant to what happens here in Ireland? Are you suggesting it's comparing like with like?

Yes, I think it is pretty similar and relevant. Not sure what you think is so utterly different that it has absolutely zero relevance. If the limit had happened to be in the UK would you also think it irrelevant? what about France? Countries often look to others to see what the situation is like, our own gov are doing this with escooters at the moment. It would be bizarre & stupid to ignore it.

1bryan wrote: »

which part of the US, specifically do you refer to? Its a big place.

all of it. I have simply not seen people commenting that the 20mph limit they have is "ridiculous". In searching there I just see the opposite, them seemingly surprised the EU limit is low.

https://www.evelo.com/blog/why-is-there-a-20mph-speed-limit-on-electric-bikes/

Twenty miles per hour may seem like a low limit; but in Europe where electric bikes are very well established, the limit is 15 mph! We get a little bit more cushion here in the US. Also keep in mind, that the average cyclist is going about 12 mph and rarely exceeds that, so the 20mph is generally a pretty sufficient.

Weird that they think people rarely go more than 12mph! again its this flawed viewing of averages, which include complete stops.

I did hear some concern about ebikes in NY, but I think it was couriers on footpaths on derestricted models. NY have legalized them, including throttled ones
https://ny.curbed.com/2019/6/17/18681910/new-york-micromobility-escooter-ebike-legalization

A pair of bills, originally introduced in April by Sen. Jessica Ramos and Assembly member Nily Rozic, will make e-bikes (both throttle and pedal-assist) and e-scooters legal in the state. The bill will allow municipalities to decide how to regulate e-scooter sharing programs.

There are a few important provisions, though: E-scooter shares won’t be allowed in Manhattan, and riders under the age of 16 won’t be allowed to be passengers on any e-bikes.

Still, micromobility advocates, and those who’ve pressed lawmakers to legalize e-bikes—whose illegality has targeted delivery workers throughout New York City—celebrated the news.

The limit here has been questioned before.
https://irishcycle.com/2015/07/08/transport-minister-questioned-on-powerful-electric-bicycles/

Electrical assisted bicycles are currently restricted to 25km/h before the motor stops helping the user from going faster, but it seems there is lobbying for change in Ireland.

A growing number of European and other bicycle manufacturers are creating fast electric bicycles which can reach speeds of up to 40km/h with little effort.

A parliamentary question asked by Clare Daly TD (Dublin North, United Left) was told that minister has no current plan to increase the speed allowed. It is unclear who Daly was asking the question for.

Deputy Daly asked: “To ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport if he has considered increasing the speed limits for electric pedelecs from 15 mph (25 km/h) and increasing the engine size to above 250 watts in view of the fact that the current limits were set in 1978.”

In reply, the minister for transport, Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael), wrote: “I have no proposals at this time for amending legislation in relation to pedelecs (electrically assisted bicycles). I will however keep the matter under review.”

1bryan wrote: »

I'd estimate she's doing 35-40km/h up that 6% slope.

So she is on a motorbike. If she was doing 30km/hr, like loads of other cyclists on their own steam, then I would not see it as being an issue.

Would you support a 25km/hr limit for ALL cyclists? i.e. have them breaking going downhill etc?

fat bloke · 16-09-2019 1:14pm

1bryan wrote: »

not at that time, no.

Gosh. Where's the danger then? - Second hand smoke inhalation? :pac:

grogi · 16-09-2019 1:58pm

rubadub wrote: »

I have not seen too much complaint about the 32.2km/hr (20mph) limit in the US, certainly not claims that it is ridiculously fast.

It might not be ridiculously fast, but 30 km/h is fast in a cycle lane, especially in an assisted bike. On a downhill slope most of the lane would move fast, but in the climb they will be muuuch slower.

magicbastarder · 16-09-2019 1:59pm

hills are always going to be a particular selling point for e-bikes, and i've seen several mentions of cork in particular as being suited for them recently, due to it being hillier there than other irish cities.
a lot of people would be wary (me included) of a higher limit but because it may be used as a trojan horse by some to introduce a mandatory bike helmet law.

however, my main reaction to the argument about raising the limit from 25km/h is that it's really just addressing a problem that very few have an issue with. there are much bigger fish to fry in terms of making irish towns and cities better for e-bikes.

the.red.baron · 16-09-2019 2:29pm

all this time and still no argument against upping the speed limit beyond the like of its just to darn fast

grogi · 16-09-2019 3:05pm

the.red.baron wrote: »

all this time and still no argument against upping the speed limit beyond the like of its just to darn fast

Why stop at 32? Maybe 33 or 35? It will always be arbitrary. Yet the 25 seems like a good middle ground.

magicbastarder · 16-09-2019 3:05pm

i reckon it's fairly simple - the regulations were put in place to keep the expected speed of e-bicyclists around the same as those of other cyclists. that means intergrating the two types of cyclists was a doddle; and was key to retaining the definition of an e-bike as being legally equivalent to a traditional bike.

and that's the key point - people who want to raise the assistance cutoff to 30km/h or 35km/h risk waking that dragon - the 'oh, so you want to be treated the same as a traditional cyclist, but yet you want to go significantly faster?' reaction.

i don't see it as a major issue, really. certainly with commuting, it's going to make shag all difference to journey times. in the city, your overall commuting speed is far more of a function of how slow you go on the slow parts than it is how fast you go on the fast parts.

rubadub · 16-09-2019 3:15pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

raising the limit from 25km/h is that it's really just addressing a problem that very few have an issue with.

People have an issue with people pissing about on derestricted bikes, and I do think that is a direct result of the low limit. I doubt that woman in her late 60s would have bothered getting the bike derestricted and would have been happy going 30km/hr. Some are sold as 45km/hr off the shelf but usually at a higher price.

grogi wrote: »

Yet the 25 seems like a good middle ground.

I think too many resort to derestricting, I think 30 would be good, and 45 is too high, though plenty of people on roadbikes are on capable of that on cycletracks.

magicbastarder · 16-09-2019 3:32pm

maintaining 45km/h on a roadbike on the flat - without wind assistance - is remarkably difficult for mere mortals. i'm reasonably fit and am comfortable up to around 33km/h (sustained), at a rough guess.

magicbastarder · 16-09-2019 3:35pm

rubadub wrote: »

I doubt that woman in her late 60s would have bothered getting the bike derestricted and would have been happy going 30km/hr.

or else she knows nothing of the restrictions and took the bike that was sold to her, without knowing it was chipped.

grogi · 16-09-2019 3:36pm

rubadub wrote: »

People have an issue with people pissing about on derestricted bikes, and I do think that is a direct result of the low limit. I doubt that woman in her late 60s would have bothered getting the bike derestricted and would have been happy going 30km/hr. Some are sold as 45km/hr off the shelf but usually at a higher price.

I think too many resort to derestricting, I think 30 would be good, and 45 is too high, though plenty of people on roadbikes are on capable of that on cycletracks.

People who can sustain 30 km/h on a flat are those who have done thousands of km in the saddle already. Statistically they have enough experience to know when it is safe to cycle fast. And really - not a big fraction of those in the commute-by-bike community.

If you let the assistance go above 25 km/h, you are effectively opening the high-speed cycling for those less fortunate in fitness and experience area. Horrible idea.

Tombo2001 · 16-09-2019 3:36pm

The average commuter is going along at 15k-20k per hour. Being passed by someone that (I) is going twice as fast as you, (ii) you cant hear them behind you and (iii) is passing quite close to you (for example in the same bike lane) - its all a bit unpleasant.

magicbastarder · 16-09-2019 3:41pm

the power increase required to go from 25km/h to 30km/h is 50%.

Weepsie · 16-09-2019 3:45pm

I had someone pass me on an ebike the other day. Was a folding one with fat tyres. I could hear them from way back. Sounded like a swarm of bees.

Utter Consternation · 16-09-2019 4:10pm

It is quite disconcerting to have someone serenely sail by you as you're struggling up a hill.

beauf · 16-09-2019 4:17pm

You are aptly named...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_dcqHDFvCM

Duckjob · 16-09-2019 6:24pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

maintaining 45km/h on a roadbike on the flat - without wind assistance - is remarkably difficult for mere mortals. i'm reasonably fit and am comfortable up to around 33km/h (sustained), at a rough guess.

According to kreuzotter.de I need 482 watts to maintain 45kph on the flat in aero position.

When I'm doing bike training in the gym I put that amount of power out for 30 secs and I'm toast

eeeee · 16-09-2019 7:11pm

In fairness 30kph isn't that difficult to maintain, provided the wind isn't strong. You don't have tho be particularly fit to top along at 30 on the flat.
Phil gaiman took the kom up Howth at 30kph average without a motor (ok he's not normal, but not assisted either!)
45 isn't fast downhill or on a slope with the wind behind you either.

I personally don't have an issue with faster e-bikes, provided the rider isn't a prick*, aware of the rules of the road etc.
Also the more people out on two wheels the better imo. If they want to go faster then let them, as long, as previously said, they're not a prick about it.
You get idiots in/ on every single form of transport, and they'll be idiots irrespective of what rules and regulations are in place.

*being dangerous, ignoring rules of the road etc.

magicbastarder · 16-09-2019 8:05pm

eeeee wrote: »

Phil gaiman took the kom up Howth at 30kph average without a motor (ok he's not normal, but not assisted either!)

to be fair, he was assisted - that was a very windy day, and the wind was coming from the northwest. perfect conditions for tackling howth from the village side. i know this because it helped me bag a NW to SE KOM off weepsie.

site_owner · 16-09-2019 8:18pm

I don't think 25 or 30 is making much difference in terms of chipping, If people want to go faster they are usually talking about 35 or 45.

I don't know where 25 came from, but cycle at 30 on the Sutton track, and you'll pass a lot of people and be very unlikely to get passed, so it's probably right. Around town you'll be at the next lights shortly after you hit 30.

My opinion is that what's about to happen is 45kph capable ebikes could replace mopeds and small motorbikes and that theyll need to be on the road if they get legalised.

On the other hand, I have a 25kph pedelec cargo bike but often pedal it to much faster speeds when there's room and I've had a few "aha it's an ebike" type comments if someone catches up with me

rubadub · 16-09-2019 8:25pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

maintaining 45km/h on a roadbike on the flat - without wind assistance - is remarkably difficult for mere mortals.

Yep, I see many do it, on slight declines and/or with wind assitance.

It would be very difficult for the average woman in her late 60s on a derestricted but otherwise road legal 250W ebike to maintain 45km/hr on the flat without wind resistance. Yet the other poster said she was flying up a hill at 45km/hr with a gradient of 6. I am not sure of the gradients I come across on steep hills but I certainly cannot sustain 25km/hr, nowhere near it, and I have heard the Bosch is actually well over the 250W limit. As I said I am not particularly fit but faster commuting on a clapped out hybrid than the ebike.

Most off the shelf ebikes have easier gearing than most road bikes, mine had the equivalent of a 37.5 tooth front ring, and 11 on the back and 27.5" wheels.

So if she is pissing up the hill smoking a cigarette at 45km/hr then not only is it derestricted it is likely some monster 2 or 3kW engine, so basically a full on electric motorbike. Her legs & chain would be smoking too with typical ebike gearing.

magicbastarder wrote: »

or else she knows nothing of the restrictions and took the bike that was sold to her, without knowing it was chipped.

Possibly, just like plenty of conmen are duping people into buying escooters.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The average commuter is going along at 15k-20k per hour.

The ones I come across are usually faster than that.

Large bottle small glass · 16-09-2019 8:33pm

The risk of it hurting a lot if coming off any bicycle is the most effective control to ensure people don't crash much.

That feeling of vulnerability won't disappear with ebikes.

The small cohort won't don't have much cycling experience or feel vulnerable and fly about at 45km/h will get much smaller very quickly for one reason or another.

People are always resistant to change.

Mtb ebikes and city are very very popular where I'm currently in France, despite the landscape making The Netherlands look Alpine. They are going to be everywhere soon.

Schooled by an E-bike

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