Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page

CeannRua · 20-08-2015 12:06am

shanew wrote: »

here's a link to the corresponding transcript and image - the marriage took place in St. Mary's Marlborough St. (Pro-Cathedral) in 1861

The highlighted one would mean dispensation granted by parish Administrator, I think.

P. Breathnach · 20-08-2015 12:34am

CeannRua wrote: »

The highlighted one would mean dispensation granted by parish Administrator, I think.

Damn! Missed the highlighting. Yes, agreed.

In a cathedral, the Bishop is nominally the Parish Priest. An Administrator is a priest who undertakes the day-to-day work of the Parish Priest, leaving the Bishop free for the "more important stuff".

wexflyer · 20-08-2015 5:17am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Dispensatio ab Archiepiscope - dispensation from the archbishop.

That is the first one in the image posted, but the OP is interested in the second one, which someone has (correctly I think) suggested is by the Admin.

Karen Cassidy · 20-08-2015 8:27am

Thank you all so much that makes sense! Slightly disappointed that it hasn't given me any genealogical info but cest la vie!

P. Breathnach · 20-08-2015 10:46am

Karen Cassidy wrote: »

Thank you all so much that makes sense! Slightly disappointed that it hasn't given me any genealogical info but cest la vie!

It hints at the possibility of genealogical info. They received a dispensation, which tells you there was an impediment to the marriage.

The most usual impediment was consanguinity, and if the dispensation was granted at the Parish Priest's level rather than at the Bishop's level (as in the one I incorrectly dealt with), it might have been that the couple were second cousins or thereabouts. Worth a little bit of digging, I would think.

Karen Cassidy · 20-08-2015 2:09pm

Yes but you can also I think have dispensation for not having done banns or being underage and possibly more that I don't know. Elsewhere on that page under dispensations it says Ter - I think that's what I remember which I read as 3rd degree relation so second cousin so figured that if they wrote that for one mine must be something different - if that makes sense?

Boscod · 20-08-2015 5:01pm

Hello, can anyone help translate / decipher the attached, which appears alongside a baptism record.
Thanks.

P. Breathnach · 20-08-2015 5:15pm

Boscod wrote: »

Hello, can anyone help translate / decipher the attached, which appears alongside a baptism record.
Thanks.

It looks to me like "Per proxiam Joannam Donnelly". I take it that this was written beside one of the sponsor's names, and it would mean that Joan(na) Donnelly was a proxy for that sponsor.

wexflyer · 20-08-2015 6:02pm

Karen Cassidy wrote: »

Yes but you can also I think have dispensation for not having done banns or being underage and possibly more that I don't know. Elsewhere on that page under dispensations it says Ter - I think that's what I remember which I read as 3rd degree relation so second cousin so figured that if they wrote that for one mine must be something different - if that makes sense?

Dispensations could be required for time, place, affinity, consanguinity, banns, age, plus who knows what else.

Boscod · 20-08-2015 6:02pm

Thanks P. It is beside one of the sponsor names, so what you are saying sounds spot on.

VirginiaB · 20-08-2015 6:32pm

Re dispensations, a very valuable book for Irish genealogy is 'Bishop Loughlin's Dispensations, Diocese of Brooklyn, 1859-1866', compiled by Joseph Silinonte and pub 1996.

The vast majority of the thousands seeking dispensations and listed in this book were Irish-born, as were their priests so the info may reflect practice in Ireland as well. Parents' names, counties, parishes of origin are often included with other valuable info.

Silinonte, now deceased, says that "by far the greatest number of requests were for Dispensation from Banns." For privacy reasons, he did not publish individual reasons for requests tho that is available from the archives of the diocese. He also says over 95% of requests were granted.

Wherever you may live, you may find relatives in this book with useful info for your research. It's out of print but available thru inter-library loan in the US. Maybe the NLI has a copy--they should.

CeannRua · 21-08-2015 7:31am

Karen Cassidy wrote: »

Yes but you can also I think have dispensation for not having done banns or being underage and possibly more that I don't know. Elsewhere on that page under dispensations it says Ter - I think that's what I remember which I read as 3rd degree relation so second cousin so figured that if they wrote that for one mine must be something different - if that makes sense?

'Ter' means 'three times' so would take this to mean that the banns were read three times as was usual. The note you queried is in the banns rather than impediments column so depending on how consistently the register was kept, the dispensation may just relate to banns.

wexflyer · 01-09-2015 7:18am

I wonder if anyone can help with the surname of the groom for the marriage on 15 February 1830, in Ferns, middle of page, on left
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634064#page/14/mode/1up
He is John Do....?, of what appears to be Blackwater, married Elizabeth Doyle of Clonee.

As an aside, I would note that at this period, the Ferns parish register tended to include the address of BOTH parties to the marriage, what joy!
Also, this marriage comes as a great surprise for me, as Blackwater is a long way from Ferns (relative to a day's walk!), so my family must have somehow been more prominent than I thought!
Thanks in advance

shanew · 01-09-2015 7:29am

John Downy ?

montgo · 01-09-2015 7:44am

I would agree with John Downy (Downey).

This Ferns register was very neatly written and much easier to read & research than many others.

wexflyer · 02-09-2015 6:08am

Thanks, I agree with Downy also, if belatedly.

Boscod · 09-09-2015 9:16pm

Any ideas on the the second line of the attached. It's a note in the last column of the 1890 baptism register entry for my relative.
Thanks.

Jellybaby1 · 09-09-2015 11:39pm

A bit of a guess......'Lived off Land Sale' ??

Hermy · 09-09-2015 11:40pm

married 2? December 1916
Luigi Lardi Sale

There's a corresponding record in the England & Wales, Marriage Index, 1916-2005.

Oct-Nov-Dec 1916
Bucklow, Cheshire
v.8a p.347

shanew · 10-09-2015 1:36pm

Hermy wrote: »

married 2? December 1916
Luigi Lardi Sale

There's a corresponding record in the England & Wales, Marriage Index, 1916-2005.

Oct-Nov-Dec 1916
Bucklow, Cheshire
v.8a p.347

some possible children for this couple on FreeBMD Index between 1918 and 1928, first two in Chorlton district and two more in Manchester S. district. (both close to Bucklow)

Boscod · 10-09-2015 4:40pm

Thanks for your inputs. Very interesting development indeed !

shanew · 10-09-2015 5:34pm

There's a death for this Christina in Manchester in the 3rd Quarter of 2000 - which gives her dob as 25 December 1891, and also a record (headstone transcript?) on FindaGrave

Hermy · 10-09-2015 5:44pm

Christina also appears on finbarconnolly.com as one of Ireland's longest living people!

EDIT: Too slow!

shanew · 10-09-2015 5:47pm

I'll p.m. Boscod with a few details on the children... bit recent for online posts

Boscod · 13-09-2015 8:24pm

I'm having a problem understanding the location of this marriage. I don't think it's Irish, possibly in England. I've found marriage records for Ilford and Wolverhampton, but can't make a definite name match to this.

Baptism record of Jane Byrne, born 7th Sept 1896, Sandyford Parish.

Thanks for your help.

CeannRua · 13-09-2015 9:01pm

Boscod wrote: »

I'm having a problem understanding the location of this marriage. I don't think it's Irish, possibly in England. I've found marriage records for Ilford and Wolverhampton, but can't make a definite name match to this.

Baptism record of Jane Byrne, born 7th Sept 1896, Sandyford Parish.

Thanks for your help.

Westland Row??

tabbey · 13-09-2015 10:10pm

Westland Row looks right to me also. However the marriage date of 1961 seems statistically unusual. It may have been a second marriage, or an error, perhaps my own error.

Boscod · 14-09-2015 8:33am

Thanks for your help, Westland Row looks spot on.
I wouldn't be surprised by the date of the marriage, but as I now have the Reg Dist I will investigate further.

Boscod · 16-09-2015 8:47am

tabbey wrote: »

Westland Row looks right to me also. However the marriage date of 1961 seems statistically unusual. It may have been a second marriage, or an error, perhaps my own error.

Well this one defied the stats! Westland Row was correct. Jane was 65 when she married and James was 68, described as spinster and batchelor.
James died in 1964 and Jane 1980. Another nugget.

tonycascarino · 18-09-2015 6:51pm

Hi..I was doing a bit of research & I was just wondering if someone could help make out the place name beside 15 - Married Patrick Gleeson of ?? & Bridget etc. The place name looks like it starts with P but I haven't a clue what it is. Maybe one of your eyes are better than mine.

http://mediasvc.ancestry.co.uk/v2/image/namespaces/1093/media/bf622c1c-1c8e-4085-afd5-457a91d033dd?client=TreesUI

Thanks in advance..

shanew · 18-09-2015 7:03pm

the word directly after the 15 looks like Married - I think the very last word on the 2nd line after the witnesses might be a place name 'B Clave' - a townland named Ballyclave ?

shanew · 18-09-2015 7:08pm

The other word between Gleesson and the & before Bridget does appear to start with his strange capital 'P' - and maybe includes a lower case p and ends in an r or n ?

tonycascarino · 18-09-2015 7:14pm

Thanks Shanew for your efforts. It's a tricky one! Could the P word actually be Boher?

shanew · 18-09-2015 7:15pm

there's a townland named Piperhill in Toem civil parish that might fit.. it's one of the civil parishes covered by Kilcommon/Templebeg

pretty sure that's a P - look at the Patrick

tonycascarino · 18-09-2015 7:21pm

It certainly does look like Piper, it's just that I never heard of it before. However, now that you've mentioned the above & it's close proximity to Kilcommon, then it could very easily be that. Once again, thank you!!

CeannRua · 18-09-2015 9:01pm

tonycascarino wrote: »

Hi..I was doing a bit of research & I was just wondering if someone could help make out the place name beside 15 - Married Patrick Gleeson of ?? & Bridget etc. The place name looks like it starts with P but I haven't a clue what it is. Maybe one of your eyes are better than mine.

http://mediasvc.ancestry.co.uk/v2/image/namespaces/1093/media/bf622c1c-1c8e-4085-afd5-457a91d033dd?client=TreesUI

Thanks in advance..

Small moan - links to original register pages are better than screenshots.

I think this might say Piper. There is a townland called Piperhill so perhaps check if it could be this.

Additional: sorry shanew's post only showed on screen for me after I posted.

shanew · 18-09-2015 10:04pm

CeannRua wrote: »

Small moan - links to original register pages are better than screenshots.

I think this might say Piper. There is a townland called Piperhill so perhaps check if it could be this.

Additional: sorry shanew's post only showed on screen for me after I posted.

at least we both independently came up with the same answer - that's a good result...

agree on the preference for a link, first thing I did was look for the original image. Maybe also having a screen-shot showing the required entry along with the 'difficult' words highlighted would be the ideal way

tonycascarino · 20-09-2015 10:12pm

I'm probably pushing my luck but I have just one last question if anyone can answer please. I would just like to know what Parish (looks like Toome but not sure) James Cash is from on marriage dated 26/02/1816 in the link & what does it say next to the Parish name.It is the 2nd marriage of that date. I'll leave you alone after this. Thanks again! :-)

http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632667#page/139/mode/1up

Hermy · 20-09-2015 11:46pm

This is what I have...

Mar. 26 by Rev. John Murphy James Cash farmer
of the parish of Toome duly certified to Ellen
Murphy of Grange wts. Donal Murphy Donal
Cash & Anne Murphy

I wouldn't have figured the grooms surname was Cash - looks like Cap to me.:o

tonycascarino · 21-09-2015 12:06am

Thanks Hermy! At least we both see Toome.

Sometimes even if it appears obvious it mightn't be what ones eyes think they see. Think the Murphy you see for the bride is actually Morrisy. Would never have made out 'duly certified' either so thanks for solving that also.

KildareFan · 21-09-2015 8:23am

tonycascarino wrote: »

Thanks Hermy! At least we both see Toome. Sometimes even if it appears obvious it mightn't be what ones eyes think they see. Think the Murphy you see for the bride is actually Morrisy. Would never have made out 'duly certified' either so thanks for solving that also.

I've found in some cases of the early baptism registers that the double s [SS] is represented by a letter that can look like p. See difference between Morrissy and Murphy in this entry

Hermy · 20-11-2015 12:28am

I'm looking at the death of Mrs. Fanning - 3rd last entry on the right page - and wondering about the cause of death if anyone can help.

EDIT: Google suggests the word may be puerperal.

VirginiaB · 20-11-2015 1:45am

It is puerperal. It is also called childbed fever and was a very common cause of death among women soon after childbirth in the pre-antibiotic era. One of my family, a young lawyer, almost died of it last year here in the US. It is extremely rare tho it took four antibiotics before they found one that worked. They brought in an infectious disease specialist who said he sees perhaps one case a year. No idea how she got it. Very very common years ago.

tabbey · 20-11-2015 2:48pm

tonycascarino wrote: »

I'm probably pushing my luck but I have just one last question if anyone can answer please. I would just like to know what Parish (looks like Toome but not sure) James Cash is from on marriage dated 26/02/1816 in the link & what does it say next to the Parish name.It is the 2nd marriage of that date. I'll leave you alone after this. Thanks again! :-)

http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632667#page/139/mode/1up

The groom's surname is Cass, as was normal for the time, the double s is formed of a short s and a long s. The groom's parish, Toome, is presumably an abbreviation for Toomevara, a parish immediately north of Borrisoleigh. Cass was a fairly common name in that area.

pinkypinky · 23-11-2015 3:38pm

Thoughts please on the note in the comments column for Thomas Joseph Magrath born 1874. Am linking to the irishgenealogy version for easy access:
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/b13e770258901

"A child formerly of....."

shanew · 23-11-2015 4:02pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Thoughts please on the note in the comments column for Thomas Joseph Magrath born 1874. Am linking to the irishgenealogy version for easy access:
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/b13e770258901

"A child formerly of....."

a child found at 5 Lagan St./Ct. at 9 O'C ?

shanew · 23-11-2015 4:05pm

maybe that's Lurgan St., which is in the parish...

pedroeibar1 · 24-11-2015 12:00am

Sorry to be the odd one out; I’m not so sure about “found” as it suggests a foundling whereas the register states on the left hand page that he was the child of parents legitimately joined in matrimony (“ex parentibus ligitimo matrimomio junctis”) If he was “found” why do they have his DOB down precisely as 24th and how did they find a sponsor just over a day later for the baptism?
I think it might have been a private baptism that took place at 9.00. The column it is in deals with special circumstances - converts, adult baptisms, etc.
Pinky, did he survive? Could it be that he was not expected to live and the priest did the job in the home?

pinkypinky · 24-11-2015 10:57am

He certainly was alive in 1890, when he was witness to his brother's marriage (unless they had a later child with the same name, of course), but Thomas McGrath is too common a name to go hunting down deaths.

Looking at other baptisms on that page, a week is the furthest between birth and baptism, which is what I'd expect for the time. In Thomas's case, he lived a few doors down from the church, so they probably only needed to wait for his mother to recover from the birth. But it's possible he was a weak baby and they were being extra cautious.

I just don't why they'd bother with another address and a time of baptism though.

pedroeibar1 · 24-11-2015 11:23am

pinkypinky wrote: »

I just don't why they'd bother with another address and a time of baptism though.

My take is the mother gave birth in another house- not unusual for a mother to go to her parents' home, particularly for the first child? Had Thomas been a foundling I'd guess the "parents" would be written as "unknown" and Edward and Margaret as "sponsors"

Handwriting decipher thread *must post link to full page*

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Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page