Would Pagans Occupy The Hill of Tara If It Was A Muslim Holy Site??

Doctor DooM · 20-03-2008 2:41pm

Hero Of College wrote: »

I don't care about your beliefs.;)

Hero Of College wrote: »

How very Christian of you.

Hero Of College wrote: »

In the spirt of Democracy, the Constitution takes note of the beliefs and mores of the preponderance of the population at the time it was constructed. Now the beauty of the Constitution is that, unlike hardcore religious dogma {of any persuasion} we can change or have it changed as the majority sees fit. Examples being the Citizenship Referendum and the Abortion Referenda. The Constitution recognises the majority- and sometimes, as we saw with the Divorce referendum, that majority can be damn slim. As soon as your beliefs are in the majority, you can get things changed. Then agai, your mindset seems to revolve around "trumping" and general one-up-manship. It may grind the sh!t out of you, but the modern Constitutional Republic that this Country is draws not on "thousands of years" {like you were there} of Pre-Christian worship but on 1600 years of POST-PAGAN beliefs.

Pagans still exist, so by your own rules, Ireland is not post pagan.

Bear in mind also that the special place of the Catholic church has been removed in all but name from the Constitution.

Hero Of College wrote: »

What makes you think that the vanguard of Christian sentiment is comprised of "rosary rattling old dears". Paganism is "vibrant and exciting"??? I'm sorry, but the image of the Brazilian football team, arm in arm reciting the Our Father in Brazilian before the World Cup Final in 2002 largely kicks the crap out of any crusty inspired mud-caked nonsense that currently goes on in "Pagan New Age" demonstrations. Doddering Legionaries? HA!! I am in a Boxing Club with a half dozen Born Again Christians who wouldn't be too long about, well, converting the current mindset you have about Christians as physically decrepit octagenarians.. Somehow I should think the sight of an extremely fit, attractive well-paid footballer blessing himself and looking to the heavens after each goal {Kaka, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho} largely trumps any of this "hip vibrant" paganism that you speak of. You didn't see Kaka after the European Cup Final last year, did you? He didn't have a T-shirt that said sanything about fairies and druids.:D

Reporting this. If you have such a problem with Pagans, why are you even posting here?

There are plenty of cultural icons for Pagans in music and film and the like just like Catholicism. Its not Paganisms fault you aren't looking for them.

Hero Of College wrote: »

I didn't condemn them for it- I criticised the unilateral manner in which they behave.

Whats wrong with it?

Hero Of College wrote: »

Any lasting Christian presence? Well....try this for size: one minute the Country is Pagan, the next its Christian, and the leading light of Europe int he Dark Ages. We don't need to show you some rotten concrete blocks, just have a look at the last Census. I think its a safe bet that the lasting legacy of this "alleged stunt" is a wholesale castin-off of Pagan Beliefs in preference of/for Christianity. Who needs a ruined church when you have wholesale Conversion??

If you think it happened like that you need to read a few history books. too many primary school storys about St Pat, I think.

Hero Of College wrote: »

Of course I revere it. "To Hell With The Constitution" you say. A document written in 1937 when the world was GOING TO POT.....the single greatest document for Government in this Islands history. I am not asking you to defend a religious conviction, I am merely struck by your inability to see how the Reloigious Persuasion of POST PAGAN Ireland inspired the Constitution, and how the malleability of the Constitution and its inherent content helps to make this Country what it is today. The Constitution guarantees your Rights of Free Association, Speech etc. Not some fairy down the woods under a stone. When your rights are infringed, the Constitution is there to defend you- and it does so IRRESPECTIVE of your religion, sexuality, financial status, gender etc.

I never said any of that. But its a safe bet that Muslims are far less patient when their "God" is infringed in some way. Thats all I meant. They do have a tendency to dispense with dialogue a little bit sooner.

Once again, a small minority of Muslims you choose to represent the whole. Your posts are betraying a little bit of anger to all things non catholic.

Nevyn · 20-03-2008 3:06pm

I have reopened this thread and I expect a lot more of a civil and respectful tone as per the charter for this forum or else there will be bannings as well as infractions.

Dyflin no more lolpics, kthksbye.

Nevyn · 20-03-2008 3:20pm

It is the preamble of the constitution to which you are referring and not to any of the legal articles of it, and with the fifth amendment in 1972 the specail status of the catholic church was removed so really waving about the constitution saying it means we are a christian country will not do you any favours esp here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

If you have such issue with the lack of christians rising up to take up the struggle to defend Tara and the valley I suggest you turn to your bothers and sisters in christ in the Christainity forum or at your next local parish meeting.

Sapien · 20-03-2008 9:05pm

Hero Of College wrote: »

I don't care about your beliefs.;) In the spirt of Democracy, the Constitution takes note of the beliefs and mores of the preponderance of the population at the time it was constructed. Now the beauty of the Constitution is that, unlike hardcore religious dogma {of any persuasion} we can change or have it changed as the majority sees fit. Examples being the Citizenship Referendum and the Abortion Referenda. The Constitution recognises the majority- and sometimes, as we saw with the Divorce referendum, that majority can be damn slim. As soon as your beliefs are in the majority, you can get things changed. Then agai, your mindset seems to revolve around "trumping" and general one-up-manship. It may grind the sh!t out of you, but the modern Constitutional Republic that this Country is draws not on "thousands of years" {like you were there} of Pre-Christian worship but on 1600 years of POST-PAGAN beliefs.

...

Of course I revere it. "To Hell With The Constitution" you say. A document written in 1937 when the world was GOING TO POT.....the single greatest document for Government in this Islands history. I am not asking you to defend a religious conviction, I am merely struck by your inability to see how the Reloigious Persuasion of POST PAGAN Ireland inspired the Constitution, and how the malleability of the Constitution and its inherent content helps to make this Country what it is today. The Constitution guarantees your Rights of Free Association, Speech etc. Not some fairy down the woods under a stone. When your rights are infringed, the Constitution is there to defend you- and it does so IRRESPECTIVE of your religion, sexuality, financial status, gender etc.

I'm not going to entertain your fetish for the Constitution any longer. It has precisely nothing to do with the topic we're discussing. If this is your way of proving that Ireland is really very Christian indeed, then don't bother - I don't care and it's irrelevant. I understand the religious history of this island as well as anyone. The predominance of Christianity doesn't change the fact that Tara was a centre of pre-Christian rule and worship. Your story about Patrick is all very lovely, but it's not particularly interesting to non-Christians, especially in terms of Tara's greater significance.

And almost every nation on Earth has a Constitution - ours is nothing special.

And what the hell is this?

Hero Of College wrote: »

"thousands of years" {like you were there}

Are you disputing the fact, or were you momentarily possessed by the spirit of a fifteen year old Valley girl?

Hero Of College wrote: »

What makes you think that the vanguard of Christian sentiment is comprised of "rosary rattling old dears". Paganism is "vibrant and exciting"??? I'm sorry, but the image of the Brazilian football team, arm in arm reciting the Our Father in Brazilian before the World Cup Final in 2002 largely kicks the crap out of any crusty inspired mud-caked nonsense that currently goes on in "Pagan New Age" demonstrations. Doddering Legionaries? HA!! I am in a Boxing Club with a half dozen Born Again Christians who wouldn't be too long about, well, converting the current mindset you have about Christians as physically decrepit octagenarians.. Somehow I should think the sight of an extremely fit, attractive well-paid footballer blessing himself and looking to the heavens after each goal {Kaka, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho} largely trumps any of this "hip vibrant" paganism that you speak of. You didn't see Kaka after the European Cup Final last year, did you? He didn't have a T-shirt that said sanything about fairies and druids.:D

Right. I'm not sure what you have in mind then. Flying in Brazilian footballers to promote conservation of Tara? And evangelicals inspire only fear, disgust or ridicule in most reasonable people - you can tell that to your pugilist god-botherer pals from me. No, I'm sorry Hero, but buff South American imports aside, Christianity as it exists in Ireland is a PR nightmare. Pagans, though not everyone's cup of tea, are both apposite to the cause and, seemingly, committed to it. If it weren't for them, there would be little coverage of the crisis. Where are your Christians?

Hero Of College wrote: »

I didn't condemn them for it- I criticised the unilateral manner in which they behave.

You have condemned them. There is no other way to interpret what you have written. You believe that they should not have done what they have done. That they have been somehow wrong in their actions. And, though you partially rescinded it, you accused them of "defiling" Tara. That qualifies as condemnation.

And you haven't suggested what they could have done differently. Approached Christian groups to form some kind of... multilateral organisation? Why couldn't the Christians have done that - there are more of them after all. Oh, that's right - Christians think pagans are godless and damned. No. The pagans have done whatever they could to protect Tara.

How could their actions have been less "unilateral"?

Hero Of College wrote: »

Any lasting Christian presence? Well....try this for size: one minute the Country is Pagan, the next its Christian...

If you really believe that's how it worked, then there is really no point in me pursuing this with you. I suppose it makes sense. If you imagine that the spirituality of the people of this island changed with the flick of a switch, I suppose it's inevitable that you would have a simplistic attitude towards the interpretation of our history and a boorish conception of the significance of our heritage.

Hero Of College wrote: »

Who needs a ruined church when you have wholesale Conversion??

So, just to be clear - there was no lasting Christian settlement at Tara. In fact there has been nothing at Tara - but a few short-lived, makeshift barracks and, more recently, a deal of tourism - since it was an ancient pre-Christian centre of rule and religion. Just so we're clear.

Hero Of College wrote: »

I never said any of that. But its a safe bet that Muslims are far less patient when their "God" is infringed in some way. Thats all I meant.

I don't believe you. What, then, was their "solution" to which you referred? I'm pretty sure you meant bombing or beheading. Not an abrupt exit from the debate. Backpeddle much?

I'm afraid your anger is badly misdirected, Hero. The majority in this country don't care about the danger posed to Tara by planned development. They don't care about the disregard our politicians show for our heritage. They don't care because they are complicit, because ultimately they want the same thing as the politicians: roads, houses, car parks, shopping centres. Money. Around the dinner table most will express pride in our ancient history, or some kind of spiritual connection to our "Celtic" ancestry. But when it comes down to brass tax, and the average registered elector is faced with the choice of putting on his wellies, tacking a slogan to a board, and chanting in the rain on a Saturday morning, or watching the World War Two matinee movie on RTE in his slippers, contemplating the ten extra minutes he'll have to himself every morning once the new road opens... well, who can really blame them. It's only a funny looking hill after all.

It's people who are outside of the system, apart from the majority, who have different priorities and perspectives who are making the stand. People to whom the ancient past is as important as mortgage payments or traffic hours. Not your average Church-at-Easter-and-Christmas, Parents' Association, Two Car, Three TV, Fianna Fáil/Fine Gael automaton. But hippies, pagans, druids, crackpots and freaks. They take upon themselves the cultural conscience that your precious, Constitutionally enshrined Christian majority have managed to suppress into deafening silence. Your side has let you down, and you have to lash out. We understand. Just get over yourself as quickly as you can and, possibly, do something about it. Bus your boxing mates down to Meath one day to pitch in. How better to make the actions of these bloody pagans less unilateral? They're not like Christians - they don't think everyone else is damned. They'd be happy for the help and open to suggestions.

Talliesin · 20-03-2008 11:38pm

Hero Of College wrote: »

hard to say, though anybody who buries themselves under an esker with only a car jack holding them up must have a pretty strong faith in something, apart from car jacks.

There are plenty of Agnostics and Atheists who've done the similar.

Now. Can somebody find a single sentence in all of this crap that has anything to do with Paganism?

Hero Of College · 21-03-2008 1:01am

Thaedydal wrote: »

It is the preamble of the constitution to which you are referring and not to any of the legal articles of it, and with the fifth amendment in 1972 the specail status of the catholic church was removed so really waving about the constitution saying it means we are a christian country will not do you any favours esp here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

If you have such issue with the lack of christians rising up to take up the struggle to defend Tara and the valley I suggest you turn to your bothers and sisters in christ in the Christainity forum or at your next local parish meeting.

First: thanks for re-opening the thread.:cool:

Second: I never said anything about the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church could get mentioned, included, referred to etc a dozen times and I wouldn't pay it any heed. I say "CHRISTIAN" values lay at the foundations of the Constitution, and it is the Constitution which underpins so much of what this Country stands for today. I'm not sectarian, I am not trying to be triumphalist, I just feel Tara, and the events which took place there {vis a vis Christianity}, are responsible, in the long run, for moving the country in a particular direction, and that this should be recognised.

Nevyn · 21-03-2008 1:03am

Sapien personal abuse is not tolerated, as much as the valley girl comment made me laugh please show some restraint.

Nevyn · 21-03-2008 1:05am

Oh please

And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,

Prudence, Justice and Charity are natrual law and not christain mores.

You may chose to live as a chrstian in this country others do not and ergo do not live in a christain country.

Talliesin · 21-03-2008 1:18am

An interesting thing about the Irish constitution is that while there is reference to particular belief systems it doesn't hinge upon them.

While it is done in the name of "The Holy Trinity", the source of the constitution is "We, the people of Éire" who "Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution".

Hero Of College · 21-03-2008 1:30am

Sapien wrote: »

And almost every nation on Earth has a Constitution - ours is nothing special.[/Sapien]

Shocking. Just shocking........its almost...well.....perverse. #1, very few countries have Constitutions, even fewer have written Constitutions.

Sapien wrote:

Right. I'm not sure what you have in mind then. Flying in Brazilian footballers to promote conservation of Tara?

Nah, I am just suggesting that you would do well to purge yourself of the stereotypical notion you have of Christians being old and doddery. Some of us are pretty able bodied.

-Sapien wrote:

Christianity as it exists in Ireland is a PR nightmare. Pagans, though not everyone's cup of tea, are both apposite to the cause and, seemingly, committed to it. If it weren't for them, there would be little coverage of the crisis.

If Christianity is such a tough sell then explain its position as a leading global religion? Explain its position as the predominating faith in this Country. For every Paedo Priest there is a Jihadist Muslim and a Crazed Loonie Hippy. They are all tough sells, at the end of the day. By the way, I don't think we are at crisis level- yet.

Sapien wrote:

Where are your Christians?

You sound like Josef Stalin, and his sneering mocking enquiry as to "How many Divisions does the Pope have?"As I already said, Christians appear to be more tolerant of the situation- perhaps too much so. My argument goes that if Tara is beholden to Christians, and Christianity has helped make this Country what it is today {decent enuff place, I would argue} and if the Christians can take a back seat on Tara, then why not Pagans?? Personally I feel, prima facie, that dissent is the highest form of patriotism, but not everybody feels that way, you see.

Sapien wrote:

You have condemned them. There is no other way to interpret what you have written. You believe that they should not have done what they have done. That they have been somehow wrong in their actions. And, though you partially rescinded it, you accused them of "defiling" Tara. That qualifies as condemnation.

I already retracted on the "defiling". I never condemned them- I feel they really are doing no favours by demonstrating how their little tunnel system could collapse a road, cause carnage and thus that the developers better back off. Thats borderline terrorism. They really could have gone about this a better way- a fortiori considering that the issue of Tara, as i see it is not solely a Pagan preserve.

Sapien wrote:

And you haven't suggested what they could have done differently. ......

How could their actions have been less "unilateral"?

Thats a good question. I guess attracting support has two sides, one is you go out and recruit it, the other is that you attract it with your own actions, leading by example, for want of a better phrase. And proudly showing off your maps of how your little tunnels can collapse a road is NOT how to go about it.

Sapien wrote:

If you really believe that's how it worked, then there is really no point in me pursuing this with you. I suppose it makes sense. If you imagine that the spirituality of the people of this island changed with the flick of a switch, I suppose it's inevitable that you would have a simplistic attitude towards the interpretation of our history and a boorish conception of the significance of our heritage.

I admit i was simplistic:- I don't think this islands spirituality believed at the flick of a switch. But to deny St Patricks legacy would be equally pig-headed about the whole thing. By the way, do Mass-Attending Christian Poles give a damn about Tara? Probably not. Do they attend Mass? Yes. Do they seek suffrage under the Constitution and the Common Law?Yes. Explain that.

Sapien wrote:

So, just to be clear - there was no lasting Christian settlement at Tara. In fact there has been nothing at Tara - but a few short-lived, makeshift barracks and, more recently, a deal of tourism - since it was an ancient pre-Christian centre of rule and religion. Just so we're clear.

That doesn't mean a damned thing. There are no statues at the top of Mount Everest...I guess Hillary never made it to the top so.

Sapien wrote:

I'm afraid your anger is badly misdirected, Hero. The majority in this country don't care about the danger posed to Tara by planned development. They don't care about the disregard our politicians show for our heritage. They don't care because they are complicit, because ultimately they want the same thing as the politicians: roads, houses, car parks, shopping centres. Money. Around the dinner table most will express pride in our ancient history, or some kind of spiritual connection to our "Celtic" ancestry. But when it comes down to brass tax, and the average registered elector is faced with the choice of putting on his wellies, tacking a slogan to a board, and chanting in the rain on a Saturday morning, or watching the World War Two matinee movie on RTE in his slippers, contemplating the ten extra minutes he'll have to himself every morning once the new road opens... well, who can really blame them. It's only a funny looking hill after all.

To your astonishment, we may well be in agreement about the majority of this. I already said people are sheep, there to be lead and then culled when the mood takes "The Man".

Sapien wrote:

Not your average Church-at-Easter-and-Christmas, Parents' Association, Two Car, Three TV, Fianna Fáil/Fine Gael automaton

And they say its me who needs anger management classes. Come on...I'm male, single, 25 yoa, no political affiliations, no mortgage, no kids....no car...no TV.....you seem to have a gripe with good old comfortable middle-class Ireland. Jesus, even I was trying to keep it an issue of Pagan/Christian. You're off on a tangent altogether.

But hippies, pagans, druids, crackpots and freaks. They take upon themselves the cultural conscience that your precious, Constitutionally enshrined Christian majority have managed to suppress into deafening silence.

I don't have a cultural conscience in the same way you do. Not to the same degree, and not about the same things. And I acknowledge that dissent and civil disobedience have their purposes. Just don't show me pictures of a tunnel system collapsing a road and tell me I should be impressed.

Sapien wrote:

Your side has let you down, and you have to lash out.

My side may have let me down, possibly so- but it is my side that are keeping you UP. Remember that the next time you take out trade union membership, remember that the next time you attend your subsidised GP- remember that the next time you seek to defend your good name, or your life or property. The Constitution, based on Christian mores, has your interests at heart. A pagan digging a tunnel to collapse a road or threatening agri-immolation does precious little for me.

bellapip · 21-03-2008 1:34am

And yet, regardless of Islam, Christianity, Tibetan Monks, or Janey mack gorillas, the NRA still ends up acting as the ultimate god and dictating to the Irish government what will happen with the motorway which jags like a scar through our heritage.
Ferrovial/SIAC, still use the Garda Siochana like puppets as they demonstrated today while they issued orders for work to be carried out on a site which currently has a protection order on it, and all of this while they wave pieces of paper signed by the OPW around to beat the band.

I think the question is not, would Islam or any other religion give a **** what other religious sect stood on THEIR hill, the question is more, why don't we give enough of a ****?

https://www.indymedia.ie/article/86756

B.

Hero Of College · 21-03-2008 1:39am

Talliesin wrote: »

An interesting thing about the Irish constitution is that while there is reference to particular belief systems it doesn't hinge upon them.

While it is done in the name of "The Holy Trinity", the source of the constitution is "We, the people of Éire" who "Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution".

I have already alluded to the malleabilty of the Constitution- it can be moulded as seen fit to best reflect the feelings of the contemporary electorate. It so happens that the electorate are pretty happy being associated with The Holy Trinity thing, and given that {"the legend":rolleyes:} of St Patrick alludes specifically to the Holy Trinity and Patricks elucidation upon the subject matter, I felt entitled to draw a link between our Nation State today, and the arrival of Christianity into Ireland, via Patrick, at Tara.

I do not think this was a shocking, triumphalist or sectarian link to make. But Sapien has gone off on a bender and tarred half the bleeding Island with the same brush. Apparently, we all have 2 motors, 3 teles and bear an uncanny resemblance to the Royle family.

Hero Of College · 21-03-2008 1:41am

bellapip wrote: »

And yet, regardless of Islam, Christianity, Tibetan Monks, or Janey mack gorillas, the NRA still ends up acting as the ultimate god and dictating to the Irish government what will happen with the motorway which jags like a scar through our heritage.
Ferrovial/SIAC, still use the Garda Siochana like puppets as they demonstrated today while they issued orders for work to be carried out on a site which currently has a protection order on it, and all of this while they wave pieces of paper signed by the OPW around to beat the band.

I think the question is not, would Islam or any other religion give a **** what other religious sect stood on THEIR hill, the question is more, why don't we give enough of a ****?

https://www.indymedia.ie/article/86756

B.

I agree.....Guards are there to be used like poker chips. I'm no fan of the Police, or the NRA, or the OPW or ANY of these bureaucrats. In case it was lost on anyone...I don't like developers.

Talliesin · 21-03-2008 2:10am

No. I don't think it was lost on anyone. Since you've so far got 84 posts of "why can't everyone else be great like me instead of sucking like everyone else" I don't think anyone was really expecting you to like to NRA, the OPW, or indeed anyone other than you.

Okay. You're great. Have a Blue Peter badge. Now, anything on the topic of Paganism to say or ask?

twinQuins · 21-03-2008 3:13am

Ever pause to consider that these people may have other motives besides seeing a pagan site preserved? Maybe they value their culture. The whole tunnel system they have may seem like a bad PR stunt but think about it: they're willing to risk their lives for that site. Think they'd take it upon themselves to do something like that lightly? They have as much a claim to defend it as you or any other Irish person. Don't try to muddy the waters.

But you're not really interested in that, are you? You could have discussed this in a number of other fora but instead you dredged this up where you knew you'd get people wound up. Though I admit you seem to be somewhat...disorganised in what it is you're actually trying to say.

From what I've read so far you seem incensed that Pagans dare try and protect a site that has meaning to both Catholicism and Paganism. That, Catholicism has had more of an impact in shaping Ireland and it's culture.
That it has had an impact I don't think is in question. You seem however reluctant to leave it at that.
The constitution was written at a time when a large portion of the populace could be considered practicing Catholics. Even though it may be amended when a majority of the people will it, that its wording hasn't been leads you to believe that people still accept it as a document steeped in Christianity? Would that be correct?

Sure, let's discount history up to the point Catholicism was introduced because surely that has no bearing on what the nation is now.

Now, most interesting is that you felt the need to not only post this thread here, but the very same one in the Islam forum! My-oh-my!
What, may I ask, happened? Things a little slow here?

Let's cut the c**p shall we? You're intent is pretty damn clear.

Sapien · 21-03-2008 3:56am

Thaed - yes, sorry, I consider my hand thoroughly slapped. This twisted debacle is bringing out the worst in me, and the recent offlining of politics.ie means I have a build-up of spleen that needs to be vented on something (which may explain why I'm still pursuing this).

And so...

Hero Of College wrote: »

Shocking. Just shocking........its almost...well.....perverse. #1, very few countries have Constitutions, even fewer have written Constitutions.

You seem to have a deep interest in this. How many developed countries have written constitutions, and what makes Ireland's demonstrably better?

Hero Of College wrote: »

If Christianity is such a tough sell then explain its position as a leading global religion? Explain its position as the predominating faith in this Country. For every Paedo Priest there is a Jihadist Muslim and a Crazed Loonie Hippy. They are all tough sells, at the end of the day.

I'll settle for your admission of equivalence on this as a sufficient victory - though, of course, I maintain that Catholicism would be the far greater turn-off.

Hero Of College wrote: »

My argument goes that if Tara is beholden to Christians, and Christianity has helped make this Country what it is today {decent enuff place, I would argue} and if the Christians can take a back seat on Tara, then why not Pagans??

What!? That is not an argument. It's a non sequitur teetering on top of two unsound premises. You continue to phrase your position in maddeningly obscure ways. What do you mean "Tara is beholden to Christianity"? Why should the attitude of Christians towards Tara dictate, or influence in any way, the attitude of non-Christians? Momentarily ignoring the ludicrous contention that Christianity (as opposed to, merely, Christians) is to thank for the formation of the state - even if that were true, what difference would it make?

Are you saying that because Christians largely don't care about the threats to Tara, pagans shouldn't either? If so, why? Why, why, why? For gods' sake, why?

Hero Of College wrote: »

I already retracted on the "defiling". I never condemned them

You implied - indeed the very title of the thread implies - that the actions of the pagans are somehow predicated on disrespect to Christianity. That, coming from a Christian, is a condemnation. Now, I would be satisfied if you would simply say that you do not, upon further thought, believe that, and that your implications were rash and ill-considered, or the result of clumsy expression.

Hero Of College wrote: »

Thats a good question. I guess attracting support has two sides, one is you go out and recruit it, the other is that you attract it with your own actions, leading by example, for want of a better phrase.

The actions were of those who turned up. The fault for non-involvement lies with those who failed to involve themselves. These pagans never adopted the role of demagogues, but as individual activists, organised amongst themselves. And they have at no point done anything to prevent others, indeed Christians, from standing alongside them. Have they?

Hero Of College wrote: »

I admit i was simplistic:- I don't think this islands spirituality believed at the flick of a switch. But to deny St Patricks legacy would be equally pig-headed about the whole thing. By the way, do Mass-Attending Christian Poles give a damn about Tara? Probably not. Do they attend Mass? Yes. Do they seek suffrage under the Constitution and the Common Law?Yes. Explain that.

Explain what? What are you talking about? I'm not going to get into this Constitution nonsense again unless it has something to do with Tara. I'm glad you realise that the process of conversion is complicated and protracted. That the idea that it was wholly effected by some dramatics at Tara is preposterous. That, as nice a story as Patrick at Tara might be, it is of limited real significance in terms of the Irish conversion to Christianity, and to the history of Tara itself.

Hero Of College wrote: »

That doesn't mean a damned thing. There are no statues at the top of Mount Everest...I guess Hillary never made it to the top so.

That would be an apt analogy if I were disputing that Patrick visited Tara. I am not (at the moment). I was simply establishing that Tara was only ever used by pagans, or pre-Christians, in their political and religious affairs, and that its significance in our heritage arises from that. In fact, it is because of that significance that the Patrick story is set there. Whether the story was made up and set in Tara, whether it happened somewhere else and was fictitiously relocated to Tara, or whether Patrick actually did decide to perform his stunt at Tara - it all comes down to the same reason. That reason is the significance that Tara had, long before Patrick ever came to Ireland. And it is that significance that makes Tara important today. Even the Patrick story is merely a consequence and reflection of a much older significance. And so people today revering Tara may very well do so with little or no regard for the Patrick story. Do you understand? And so it is wrong to say that Tara is a Christian site. That is a poor use of language. It is a site that is of some significance to Christians (Christians who see religious merit in folk tales), but it is not a Chrisitian site.

Hero Of College wrote: »

And they say its me who needs anger management classes. Come on...I'm male, single, 25 yoa, no political affiliations, no mortgage, no kids....no car...no TV.....you seem to have a gripe with good old comfortable middle-class Ireland. Jesus, even I was trying to keep it an issue of Pagan/Christian. You're off on a tangent altogether.

Then you fail to understand what realities lie behind your own dissatisfaction with the status quo (if indeed you have any - I'm still not clear). I have no particular beef with the middle classes. You, however, seem either to be mystified by their actions (or inaction), intent on blaming their inaction on pagans, or content to tout their inaction as a signal that no action is necessary.

Hero Of College wrote: »

I don't have a cultural conscience in the same way you do. Not to the same degree, and not about the same things. And I acknowledge that dissent and civil disobedience have their purposes. Just don't show me pictures of a tunnel system collapsing a road and tell me I should be impressed.

You forfeit the right to criticise a course of action when you sit on you rump in your sitting room and spectate over the airwaves. If the cause is important to you, do something about it. You and all your Christian friends. If you don't care, stop whining.

Hero Of College wrote: »

My side may have let me down, possibly so- but it is my side that are keeping you UP. Remember that the next time you take out trade union membership, remember that the next time you attend your subsidised GP- remember that the next time you seek to defend your good name, or your life or property. The Constitution, based on...

*slumps off his Ikea bucket seat into an irreversible coma*

Nevyn · 21-03-2008 11:17am

Hero Of College has been given a time out from this forum for a month.

bauderline · 22-03-2008 1:14pm

I have posted this elsewhere, but just to put the final nail in the coffin for this thread, its all over bar the shouting....

NRA restarts work
- claiming M3 protesters broke truce

By - Tim O'Brien and Adam Harvey at Rath Lugh.

THE NATIONAL Roads Authority (NRA) has withdrawn its commitment to refrain from work on the M3 near Rath Lugh in Co. Meath, after what it said was continual "violent protests", and damage to fencing and equipment.

Instead the NRA yesterday instructed contractor Eurolink to bring forward work on a "box cut" - an outline for a future road - within the construction zone at Rath Lugh.

The authority said the outline would demonstrate that the M3 would not encroach on the national monument or the protection zone around it.

Protesters reacted with dismay at the move, saying they had been trying to stop work on the Rath Lugh "esker" - a glacial ridge - since last September, on the grounds that it is an integral part of the 2,000-year-old fort.

Gardaí moved on to the site yesterday to allow workers to build a two-metre tall spiked steel fence to separate the construction site from a protest encampment.

At the same time, gardaí searched tents in the protest encampment.

By early afternoon excavators and trucks had removed the portion of the hillside that had stood in the motorway's path. The esker was the last obstacle in the path of the motorway through the Gabhra Valley, which runs close to the Hill of Tara.

Three protesters were arrested at the site yesterday, said Insp. Pat Gannon from Navan Garda station. He said gardaí had searched the protesters' tents to look for weapons. None were found.

In a separate move yesterday, Minister for the Environment John Gormley visited the national monument and inspected maps and plans for the new road before declaring himself satisfied that the NRA proposals, if implemented as proposed, would result in the protection of the monument.

A spokesman for the NRA acknowledged that it had made a commitment on Saturday last to protester Lisa Feeney to have a one-month moratorium on construction work near Rath Lugh in order to persuade Ms. Feeney to leave the tunnel she had occupied for more than 60 hours.

However, the authority said it understood that in return the protesters would not interfere with a "haulage road" and fence being constructed to allow the contractor to move plant and equipment past Rath Lugh.

The NRA said matters worsened last Tuesday when the contractor "sought to erect fencing on the project boundary line, which is outside the area covered by the national monument preservation order".

"In addition the contractor sought to commence the construction of the haul road that had been clarified with the tunnel protester on Saturday evening. In both areas violent protests ensued and the contractor ceased work due to safety concerns for his operatives and the protesters".

The NRA also said contractor's equipment had been daubed with excrement and urine, something which was later confirmed by the Garda press office, which added that such daubing had been going on for the last week.

However, Ms. Feeney said yesterday she had no knowledge of violent demonstrations and said her fellow protesters were engaged in a peaceful protest. She said she had heard nothing about vehicles being interfered with in any way.

Ms. Feeney also maintained that the creation of a fence was never agreed with the NRA. The only contact protesters had with the fence that she had been aware of was in relation to people crawling under it, she said.

Ms. Feeney said she could not see why the NRA had reneged on its commitment to a moratorium on construction work "as I have kept my side of the bargain, I came out of the tunnel".

Dr. Muireann Ní Bhrolcháin of the Save Tara Campaign also said she have not heard anything about such incidents, adding that she sincerely hoped they had not happened.

Paddy O'Kearney, a spokesman for the Rath Lugh Direct Action group, said it was very upset that its efforts had failed.

"There isn't anything we can do," he said, gesturing towards dozens of gardaí lining the newly-built fence.

Of the claims that protesters threw excrement, or damaged construction fencing, he said: "It's absolutely not true".

A few protesters tried to run on to the construction site yesterday afternoon but were held back by workers and gardaí.

Others stood in a circle as a robed "druid" conducted a memorial service for the esker.

... that last line sure sounds like pagan practice to me !

Doctor DooM · 23-03-2008 12:39am

bauderline wrote: »

I have posted this elsewhere, but just to put the final nail in the coffin for this thread, its all over bar the shouting....

... that last line sure sounds like pagan practice to me !

Ok. There were pagans there. The point was that doesn't make it a "pagan protest." I am sure there's a few Christians there saying prayers too, but thats not really news worthy.

lostexpectation · 26-03-2008 12:59am

i say there were christian bron people there i doubt any were saying prayers

Riamfada · 15-04-2008 9:45pm

I just want to throw something into the fray.

St Patrick made no mention of his encounter at Tara in his own Confessio. Mirchiu wrote the encounter at Tara using a fictitious Kings name (escapes me atm) that was a play on the ruling O'Neill classes . So in all probability Patrick never went to Tara.

Lou.m · 21-04-2008 12:20am

(response to whole of thread)

OOKKAAAAAAY!!

Backs slowly out of the thread:o

Phew!!

Would Pagans Occupy The Hill of Tara If It Was A Muslim Holy Site??

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