New Space Engine - EM Drive - Latest Tests show it works...

nyarlothothep · 06-02-2016 1:57am

I know nothing about physics and apparently this drive violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics but...if the Chinese found warp effects and also NASA isn't it worth pumping a bit more money into verifying if it works which is what NASA seems to be doing but why not a bit more and more of a rapid more disciplined approach? Basically chemical rockets while awesome from the 1940s-60s, aren't going to get us anywhere beyond our own solar system so what's there to lose with this kind of blue skies research. Why not pump more money into pie in the sky ideas because we're going nowhere with chemical rockets.

Zubeneschamali · 06-02-2016 1:39pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I know nothing about physics and apparently this drive violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics but...

There is no but.

Capt'n Midnight · 06-02-2016 1:43pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I know nothing about physics and apparently this drive violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics but...if the Chinese found warp effects and also NASA isn't it worth pumping a bit more money into verifying if it works which is what NASA seems to be doing but why not a bit more and more of a rapid more disciplined approach? Basically chemical rockets while awesome from the 1940s-60s, aren't going to get us anywhere beyond our own solar system so what's there to lose with this kind of blue skies research. Why not pump more money into pie in the sky ideas because we're going nowhere with chemical rockets.

Even if this engine works (it doesn't) it would still need chemical rockets to get it to orbit.

Japan has flown solar sails to Venus. Potentially it's ridiculously cheap and reliable low thrust propulsion.

As for ion drives Russia has had hundreds of hall effect thrusters in orbit over decades without a failure. Cheap, reliable and efficient off the shelf technology.

VASMIR is con job. It's an ordinary ion drive. The claims for it being useful on the journey to Mars are purely based on ignoring the mass of the power source. But unlike EM it actually works. It's just that it doesn't work as well as they claim and isn't a big enough jump to justify pumping lot of money into it and diverting fund from other project.

For the solar system we don't need EM. We have stuff that works.

EM drive is throwing lots of power into a small area and then trying to measure an effect that could easily be explained by something else. Like harmonic vibrations in the restraining mechanism.

The Bloodhound SSC will have a jet engine and a rocket engine. The Rocket engine has a 550hp 5 Litre supercharged V8 just to pump the oxidiser into the rocket engine. We know that some of the energy from the pumping action will contribute to the thrust. Not much but it's still there. Now work out the contribution of the V8's starter motor, easy enough to calculate if you know the wattage. Now imagine that the effect is less than that contributed by paint fumes evaporating or the magnetic interaction of the cars electrics with earth's magnetic field. You could put strain gauges on the starter motor to measure it's thrust. Now try and measure those strain gauges while the V8 and rocket and jet engines are on full thrust. Unsurprisingly you will see some readings but you may have difficulty ruling out the vibrations. This is pretty much what the EM results seen so far are.

Back in the days of cold fusion hype a lot of the results were explained by the simple realisation that people were pumping the system with low amounts of energy for days and then somehow miraculously getting a short run where the output exceeded the average input. Energy wasn't being produced. All that was happening was that previously stored energy was being released.

Maxwell's demon has been tamed so we still obey the second law.

nyarlothothep · 06-02-2016 3:02pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Even if this engine works (it doesn't) it would still need chemical rockets to get it to orbit.

Japan has flown solar sails to Venus. Potentially it's ridiculously cheap and reliable low thrust propulsion.

As for ion drives Russia has had hundreds of hall effect thrusters in orbit over decades without a failure. Cheap, reliable and efficient off the shelf technology.

VASMIR is con job. It's an ordinary ion drive. The claims for it being useful on the journey to Mars are purely based on ignoring the mass of the power source. But unlike EM it actually works. It's just that it doesn't work as well as they claim and isn't a big enough jump to justify pumping lot of money into it and diverting fund from other project.

For the solar system we don't need EM. We have stuff that works.

EM drive is throwing lots of power into a small area and then trying to measure an effect that could easily be explained by something else. Like harmonic vibrations in the restraining mechanism.

The Bloodhound SSC will have a jet engine and a rocket engine. The Rocket engine has a 550hp 5 Litre supercharged V8 just to pump the oxidiser into the rocket engine. We know that some of the energy from the pumping action will contribute to the thrust. Not much but it's still there. Now work out the contribution of the V8's starter motor, easy enough to calculate if you know the wattage. Now imagine that the effect is less than that contributed by paint fumes evaporating or the magnetic interaction of the cars electrics with earth's magnetic field. You could put strain gauges on the starter motor to measure it's thrust. Now try and measure those strain gauges while the V8 and rocket and jet engines are on full thrust. Unsurprisingly you will see some readings but you may have difficulty ruling out the vibrations. This is pretty much what the EM results seen so far are.

Back in the days of cold fusion hype a lot of the results were explained by the simple realisation that people were pumping the system with low amounts of energy for days and then somehow miraculously getting a short run where the output exceeded the average input. Energy wasn't being produced. All that was happening was that previously stored energy was being released.

Maxwell's demon has been tamed so we still obey the second law.

Even so we'll just be limited to our solar system and it will be a law of diminishing returns, we'll learn slightly more about Mars, Europa, Venus, Saturn etc after a few centuries. I want to see the view from Alpha Centauri and further. I'm not saying dispense with rockets altogether, even with warp we'd need some form of rocket to navigate a new solar system but we're never going to go anywhere cool without some way to get around the light barrier. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm terrible with details but aren't they still testing it at NASA to verify if there are warp effects being created or whether they're even possible? I saw this recently. I think given the alternative which is just to be bound to the solar system with what amounts to an incredibly slow form of propulsion which renders manned missions hazardous and comparatively more difficult, isn't it worth considering and experimenting with fringe/crazy ideas? I mean the holographic universe idea was considered crackpot when it was first proposed? Wouldn't it be great if a new discovery that allowed ftl turned known physics on its head? Physicists would have so much more work to do, wouldn't they enjoy that?

Capt'n Midnight · 06-02-2016 4:04pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Wouldn't it be great if a new discovery that allowed ftl turned known physics on its head? Physicists would have so much more work to do, wouldn't they enjoy that?

Pipe dream. Wishful thinking.

The universe is big.Human lives are short. Recently a planet was found that will take a million years to orbit it's planet, Helliconia taken to the extreme. Even with chemical rockets that took 50,000 years to get to the nearest star we'd be able to colonise lots of star systems within that time.

nyarlothothep · 06-02-2016 7:51pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Pipe dream. Wishful thinking.

The universe is big.Human lives are short. Recently a planet was found that will take a million years to orbit it's planet, Helliconia taken to the extreme. Even with chemical rockets that took 50,000 years to get to the nearest star we'd be able to colonise lots of star systems within that time.

I think there is a bias in society toward experimental/"wishful" thinking in favour of the pragmatic even though the former can sometimes yield big results. Any colony ships would essentially have to be mini earths, and if the tech for them were to progressively break down, then it would be a disaster. 50,000 years would also be a hell of a long time, what's to say the original mission of the ship would become distorted or lost, there might be several bloody revolutions in that time. Chemical propulsion is inadequate for getting around the galaxy let alone the universe. With rockets we are basically stuck in the solar system forever. Also centrifuges for artificial gravity are kind of pointless, it's a horribly messy and expensive solution. There must be a better way otherwise, long duration manned spaceflight is dead in the water. We also need better lift vehicles than chemical rockets. It would be great if scientists figured out fusion power, we could have fusion rockets which would open up a whole world of possibilities for spacecraft design, in fact we would actually have ships rather than capsules. I think that solutions to these problems could be found with more time and energy invested into blue skies research.

Capt'n Midnight · 06-02-2016 9:07pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I think there is a bias in society toward experimental/"wishful" thinking in favour of the pragmatic even though the former can sometimes yield big results.

check out how venture capitalism works. Every venture that succeeds has to pay for 9 that didn't.

Here we are spend too much of our R&D spend on applied science rather than blue sky research

BTW Hinkley C costs more than ITER.

During wars vast amounts are spent on speculative ventures.
The B29 Bomber cost more than the atomic bomb. And by the time they figured out how to stop the engines burning Japan was pretty much on the retreat. After the war they found that the most productive use of them would have been to drop sea-mines so none of it's features were needed. Also it's use on the atomic bomb was a red herring, they could have bought Lancasters.

Radar was another program that cost more than the atomic bomb, but the payback was happening all the time.

The atomic bomb didn't win the war, people are still arguing if it even ended it early.

Any colony ships would essentially have to be mini earths, and if the tech for them were to progressively break down, then it would be a disaster. 50,000 years would also be a hell of a long time, what's to say the original mission of the ship would become distorted or lost, there might be several bloody revolutions in that time.

It's not going to happen tomorrow. The sooner we learn about suspended animation the better

Thing is unless we land on an suitable planet we'd have to survive in space anyway. And by suitable you'd have to consider things like selenium and beryllium levels in the soil.

There must be a better way otherwise, long duration manned spaceflight is dead in the water.

Project Orion.
Just need to clean it up.

Laser initiated fusion would be cool.

Thargor · 06-02-2016 9:20pm

I doubt a colony ship will ever be launched where people actually live out multiple lives inside, that would be ridiculously inefficient. Its only 2016 and we're right on the edge of having technologies like cold sleep and maybe even artificial wombs, a billionaire could probably fund those to a viable point in our lifetimes nevermind governments, in another 100 or 1000 years the technologies available will be insane.

nyarlothothep · 06-02-2016 11:21pm

Even if you have a ship that's travelling through space for 50,000 years that's a long time for things to go wrong with people in suspended animation. Furthermore, it will be impossible to have a galactica empire without some form of ftl communications at the very least. I think ftl research should be a priority. For a mars mission, they really just need to speed things up, they ought to launch the habitat module in 4 launches max, then fire off the fuel depots to orbit around Mars in advance of the mission taking place. In terms of radiation shielding would an outer shell of water be sufficient I wonder? They should manufacture some kind of ultra light weight material that performs the same function of filtering out radiation. The lander would be the trickiest part but I think with fuel sent ahead of schedule it shouldn't be to difficult to launch from the surface of Mars. The cool thing about going to Mars is to say, we can do it! There would also be technological advances as with the Apollo program that would pay off.

SNAKEDOC · 06-02-2016 11:48pm

The mars direct mission simplifies it a whole lot by simply using the martian environment to make a propellant for a return to earth vehicle. So when astronauts leave earth there is a ship waiting for them on mars fully fueled. They launch with a second return ship that is their lander plus a hab module that has been launched ahead of them with the first return vehicle. No need for fuel depots in space or any complex docking or multi vehicle docking or lunar bases or a madsive single vehicle that is too complex. Two to three launches of existing technology that could be implemented inside ten years. Not overly complex and using technology that is tried and tested including the oxygen methane fuel plant needed to refine fuel on mars. Can be done in two- three months

_Tombstone_ · 07-02-2016 2:45am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The universe is big.Human lives are short.

We'll live forever soon.

Billionaires hate parting with the dough.

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Even so we'll just be limited to our solar system and it will be a law of diminishing returns, we'll learn slightly more about Mars, Europa, Venus, Saturn etc after a few centuries. I want to see the view from Alpha Centauri and further. I'm not saying dispense with rockets altogether, even with warp we'd need some form of rocket to navigate a new solar system but we're never going to go anywhere cool without some way to get around the light barrier. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm terrible with details but aren't they still testing it at NASA to verify if there are warp effects being created or whether they're even possible? I saw this recently. I think given the alternative which is just to be bound to the solar system with what amounts to an incredibly slow form of propulsion which renders manned missions hazardous and comparatively more difficult, isn't it worth considering and experimenting with fringe/crazy ideas? I mean the holographic universe idea was considered crackpot when it was first proposed? Wouldn't it be great if a new discovery that allowed ftl turned known physics on its head? Physicists would have so much more work to do, wouldn't they enjoy that?

Warp Drive When?

Lad from NASA set up this,

The Tau Zero Foundation is a global volunteer group of scientists, engineers, writers, and entrepreneurs working together to advance the goal of interstellar flight.

Thargor wrote: »

in another 100 or 1000 years the technologies available will be insane.

This really.

But probably nearer 1000 cuz we are gonna send ourselves back to the Stone age with a WW3 at some stage, theirs just to many assholes in power thinking about No1. Even Musk mentioned it as a reason to get a move on to Mars lately aswell.

It's coming....or a few billion are gonna get sick with a mystery illness, one or the other.

Maximus Alexander · 07-02-2016 2:49am

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

This really.

But probably nearer 1000 cuz we are gonna send ourselves back to the Stone age with a WW3 at some stage, theirs just to many assholes in power thinking about No1. Even Musk mentioned it as a reason to get a move on to Mars lately aswell.

It's coming....or a few billion are gonna get sick with a mystery illness, one or the other.

If we send ourselves back to the stone age then that's the end of it. We'll still be in the stone age 1000 years later. We've already used all of the easily accessible resources on the Earth. What's left can't be extracted without technology. There is no reset for humanity, no second chance.

Capt'n Midnight · 07-02-2016 1:27pm

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

If we send ourselves back to the stone age then that's the end of it. We'll still be in the stone age 1000 years later. We've already used all of the easily accessible resources on the Earth. What's left can't be extracted without technology. There is no reset for humanity, no second chance.

In the past guilds kept trade secrets and stuff wasn't stored anywhere except memory.

To go back to the stone age now would involve destroying all records and killing lots of people, worldwide. Simple stuff like knowing clean water prevents disease would give us a head star on repopulation. No there is no easy oil anymore. But metals are everywhere, so stone age descendants will have tools. Even if roads and canals degraded they offer an easier route through the landscape than before.

we know that we can get energy from renewables it's just that fossil fuel is cheaper

Capt'n Midnight · 07-02-2016 1:47pm

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

Lad from NASA set up this

The British interplanetary society was setup in 1933 and proposed Project Daedalus back in the 1970's. The problem being the lack of antimatter.

The German VHR dated from 1930 and we all know where that led to.

Meanwhile this stuff is old hat. Maxwell explained sunlight pressure and it was actually measured in the 19th century so not much to see.
https://tauzero.aero/about/how/steps-taken/

Jim Benford, “We Should Develop Beamed Power Sailships”, to be published. JBIS, (2013).

Flying Abruptly · 09-02-2016 3:12pm

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

Lad from NASA set up this,

The guy who set up the Tau Zero Foundation did some calculations and predicts that interstellar travel wont be possible for another 200 years.

Its based on a "wait equation" and argues that an interstellar mission that cannot be completed within 50 years should not be started at all. Instead, assuming that a civilization is still on an increasing curve of propulsion system velocity, not yet having reached the limit, the resources should be invested in designing a better propulsion system. This is because a slow spacecraft would probably be passed by another mission sent later with more-advanced propulsion.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2011-01/interstellar-travel-wont-be-possible-least-200-years-according-new-calculations

_Tombstone_ · 19-03-2016 1:21am

Another New Paper on this is currently working it's way through peer review - http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/03/nasa-is-in-process-of-getting-another.html

If this works all ye nay sayers have to hand in your Space Cards.

Antimatter to ion drives: NASA's plans for deep space propulsion

_Tombstone_ · 19-03-2016 1:26am

BBC Programme will cover abit of this on 23 - next Wednesday.

Documentary exploring science's long-standing obsession with the idea of gravity control, including recent breakthroughs in the search for loopholes in conventional physics. The programme examines how the groundwork carried out by Project Greenglow in the mid-1990s by UK defence manufacturer BAE Systems has changed the understanding of the universe, making the dream of flying cars and journeys to the stars no longer quite so distant

BBC2 WED @ 8

Be there or B Square.

Capt'n Midnight · 19-03-2016 3:06am

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

Antimatter to ion drives: NASA's plans for deep space propulsion

Anything that repeats the old claim of VASMIR to Mars in 39 days isn't exactly peer reviewed. Because that claim kinda falls apart when you include the weight of power source.

Even on their own page http://www.adastrarocket.com/aarc/technology the specific impulse isn't amazingly better than other ion engines.

Thargor · 19-03-2016 10:51pm

How long do we have to wait for a bit of confirmation here in peoples opinion?

Zubeneschamali · 21-03-2016 9:59am

Thargor wrote: »

How long do we have to wait for a bit of confirmation here in peoples opinion?

If you are waiting for confirmation that the non-newtoniam EM drive works, it's never going to happen.

If you are waiting for the inventors to admit it doesn't work, I'd say about 20 years.

Thargor · 21-03-2016 8:19pm

I dismissed it nearly as soon as I read it, I want the NASA dismissal...

Thargor · 23-03-2016 7:01pm

I had a reminder on my Google calendar for a Horizon documentary on the Emdrive tonight @ 20:00 on BBC 2 but now that I look it doesnt sound like it:

Project Greenglow: The Quest for Gravity Control
Duration: 1hrs
Documentary exploring science's long-standing obsession with the idea of gravity control, including recent breakthroughs in the search for loopholes in conventional physics. The programme examines how the groundwork carried out by Project Greenglow in the mid-1990s by UK defence manufacturer BAE Systems has changed the understanding of the universe, making the dream of flying cars and journeys to the stars no longer quite so distant.

Ill give it a watch anyway.

Zubeneschamali · 23-03-2016 8:55pm

Thargor wrote: »

I had a reminder on my Google calendar for a Horizon documentary on the Emdrive tonight @ 20:00 on BBC 2 but now that I look it doesnt sound like it

Seems to be a different bunch of engineers who think they can break the laws of physics.

As I said upthread, this is not a rare phenomenon.

Thargor · 23-03-2016 10:29pm

That was a very dull documentary, piss poor actually.

Rubecula · 26-03-2016 1:22am

Saw a tv documentary the other night.

Until now I never realised that both BAe and Nasa had a programme for gravity/ant gravity engine developements.

edit:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35861334

Capt'n Midnight · 26-03-2016 2:13am

But we already have antigravity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOtT0gB-FLE

Even better it's just magnets

Rubecula · 27-03-2016 2:05am

when the frog flies around the solar system I may get excited lol

Capt'n Midnight · 11-04-2016 5:33pm

Rubecula wrote: »

when the frog flies around the solar system I may get excited lol

_Tombstone_ · 21-04-2016 4:56pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If you are waiting for confirmation that the non-newtoniam EM drive works, it's never going to happen.

If you are waiting for the inventors to admit it doesn't work, I'd say about 20 years.

A possible explanation of how/why it works + how it could be improved + how to reverse the effect.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601299/the-curious-link-between-the-fly-by-anomaly-and-the-impossible-emdrive-thruster/

New Space Engine - EM Drive - Latest Tests show it works...

Comments