No more HSS

loyatemu · 04-02-2015 2:04pm #1

It's been coming for while:

http://www.independent.ie/life/travel/travel-news/stena-line-axes-dun-laoghaire-ferry-service-30963858.html

Layinghen · 04-02-2015 2:28pm

Well I am sorry to see that news. I loved travelling from Dun Laoighre. Very easy to get to, off the motorway and so simple to get to the boat. I really don't like travelling from Dublin Port. It is very complicated for people who are not used to driving in Dublin.

Back to Rosslare for me, unless somebody else takes over the route.

Atlantic Dawn · 04-02-2015 2:39pm

I thought with the recent fuel price drop it would have been more sustainable. I presume they have a buyer lined up to take it.

munchkin_utd · 04-02-2015 11:52pm

Layinghen wrote: »

Well I am sorry to see that news. I loved travelling from Dun Laoighre. Very easy to get to, off the motorway and so simple to get to the boat. I really don't like travelling from Dublin Port. It is very complicated for people who are not used to driving in Dublin.
.

Actually I'd say exactly the opposite.

Dun laoighre is a pain to get to compared to Dublin port, which is simple with the port tunnel landing you right into the port itself and then a dual carriageway the whole way more or less to the checkin cabin,
No city driving at all required. No getting lost.
Unlike dun laoighre.

SimonMaher · 05-02-2015 12:01am

Sad day indeed for the route and for the town itself (as well as the lovely HSS itself!). They're going to put the operation of a seasonal service out to tender so let's see what (if anything) comes in from that. You never know!

Simplest solution to my mind is (and I know there are all manner of complications but stick with me!) that Irish Ferries Swift would do her normal run from Dublin at 0845 but on her 1150 from Holyhead would head to Dun Laoghaire instead of Dublin Port. She could then leave Dun Laoghaire at 1430 and head back to Holyhead and complete her day with the run back to Dublin Port for 7pm.

Simon

Tabnabs · 05-02-2015 10:33am

SimonMaher wrote: »

Sad day indeed for the route and for the town itself (as well as the lovely HSS itself!). They're going to put the operation of a seasonal service out to tender so let's see what (if anything) comes in from that. You never know!

Simplest solution to my mind is (and I know there are all manner of complications but stick with me!) that Irish Ferries Swift would do her normal run from Dublin at 0845 but on her 1150 from Holyhead would head to Dun Laoghaire instead of Dublin Port. She could then leave Dun Laoghaire at 1430 and head back to Holyhead and complete her day with the run back to Dublin Port for 7pm.

Simon

That can't happen for simple logistics. Irish Ferries would have to move their staff over to DL just to check in passengers and do all the shore side operations, and then bus them back into Dublin Port again. Not a runner.

loyatemu · 05-02-2015 11:09am

That's it for DL as a ferry port I'd say - it was always a bit of an anomaly having 2 ferry ports so close together serving the same destination.

SimonMaher · 05-02-2015 2:10pm

Tabnabs wrote: »

That can't happen for simple logistics. Irish Ferries would have to move their staff over to DL just to check in passengers and do all the shore side operations, and then bus them back into Dublin Port again. Not a runner.

I told you there would be complications didn't I

Not sure it should be ruled out immediately though - Stena managed that bit of the operation pretty well while the service was seasonal and if we were in the land of the franchise, then I reckon the load would be shared between operator and harbour. We're only talking about half a dozen people here remember.

Simon

LiamoSail · 05-02-2015 3:21pm

SimonMaher wrote: »

I told you there would be complications didn't I

Not sure it should be ruled out immediately though - Stena managed that bit of the operation pretty well while the service was seasonal and if we were in the land of the franchise, then I reckon the load would be shared between operator and harbour. We're only talking about half a dozen people here remember.

Simon

The Swift wouldn't fit on that berth as it is, not sure if the ramp or gangway's could be used either. Rectifying that would require major investment.

Additionally, the Swift carries very little. Any marginal increase in revenue Irish Ferries may experience as a result of operating out of DL would be dwarfed by the costs associated with fitting the berth and ramp out to fit the ship, and of course by the additional cost in employing additional staff and running another base.

Add to that the port dues being substantially higher in Dun Laoghaire, it won't work.

Irrelevant anyway, I would think The swift is very unlikely to still be around in three years time

zagmund · 05-02-2015 9:08pm

As a matter of interest, what sort of berthing arrangements are left in DL at this stage for anything that isn't a HSS? Where would a regular ferry pull up to? Where would the cars be marshalled & drive on? From what I remember of the cruise liners last year, the arrangements were a little, err, rudimentary. Maybe they shouldn't have pulled down what remained of our terminal after all, eh?

I may have to dig out my old copy of this report, complete with maps - http://www.dippam.ac.uk/eppi/documents/13440/page/163950. The Harbour Commissioners should have listened to Rendel you know.

z

SimonMaher · 05-02-2015 11:33pm

LiamoSail wrote: »

The Swift wouldn't fit on that berth as it is, not sure if the ramp or gangway's could be used either. Rectifying that would require major investment.

Additionally, the Swift carries very little. Any marginal increase in revenue Irish Ferries may experience as a result of operating out of DL would be dwarfed by the costs associated with fitting the berth and ramp out to fit the ship, and of course by the additional cost in employing additional staff and running another base.

Add to that the port dues being substantially higher in Dun Laoghaire, it won't work.

Irrelevant anyway, I would think The swift is very unlikely to still be around in three years time

The Swift to Dun Laoghaire idea was just a thought that came to me when I was thinking about what might happen in DL but this being the internet I now feel I should defend it to the death!

LiamoSail, you're right that Swift wouldn't fit the HSS berth (this also answers Zagmunds question). The HSS infrastructure will have to be removed by Stena (it belongs to them) but lets leave that aside for the cruise jetty for now!

The old Stena Lynx III berth on the opposite side of the terminal is fine for pretty much immediate use though. It was renovated in 2010 when Stena operated the Lynx off season and HSS in high season. Parking is in the normal standage area and then traffic drives "under" the terminal building and on to the ramp. Swift would be fine there with a little bit of work on the ramp (to make sure it lines up!). Foot passengers have a retractable gangway directly from the terminal building.

Liamo, I don't get the "The Swift carries very little" point. Do you mean it's small or that it isn't very busy? Capacity-wise she's fine (800 passengers) and in terms of how busy she is - her numbers are actually pretty good (particularly on her morning rotation) and likely to get better without HSS. The afternoon crossing is a bit quieter and that's where the DL passengers could help. There's still a market out there for a fast service - otherwise Swift would not be running (or not) Winter and Summer.

Finally, if the service is being put out to tender, I don't think that harbour dues will be an issue somehow

Simon

Vic_08 · 06-02-2015 3:48am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I thought with the recent fuel price drop it would have been more sustainable. I presume they have a buyer lined up to take it.

There is no market for a unique fuel hungry jumbo fast ferry requiring bespoke linkspans. Unless Stena want a 20,000 ton reminder of their failed experiment she will quickly follow the Voyager into becoming the latest source of raw materials for the drink can industry.

SimonMaher wrote: »

The Swift to Dun Laoghaire idea was just a thought that came to me when I was thinking about what might happen in DL but this being the internet I now feel I should defend it to the death!

LiamoSail, you're right that Swift wouldn't fit the HSS berth (this also answers Zagmunds question). The HSS infrastructure will have to be removed by Stena (it belongs to them) but lets leave that aside for the cruise jetty for now!

The old Stena Lynx III berth on the opposite side of the terminal is fine for pretty much immediate use though. It was renovated in 2010 when Stena operated the Lynx off season and HSS in high season. Parking is in the normal standage area and then traffic drives "under" the terminal building and on to the ramp. Swift would be fine there with a little bit of work on the ramp (to make sure it lines up!). Foot passengers have a retractable gangway directly from the terminal building.

Liamo, I don't get the "The Swift carries very little" point. Do you mean it's small or that it isn't very busy? Capacity-wise she's fine (800 passengers) and in terms of how busy she is - her numbers are actually pretty good (particularly on her morning rotation) and likely to get better without HSS. The afternoon crossing is a bit quieter and that's where the DL passengers could help. There's still a market out there for a fast service - otherwise Swift would not be running (or not) Winter and Summer.

Finally, if the service is being put out to tender, I don't think that harbour dues will be an issue somehow

Simon

Sorry to p1ss on your cornflakes Simon but this is the end of DL as a ferry port, there is really no commercial reason for Irish Ferries to take on Dun Laoghaire, it is just not going to happen.

It would add the considerable expense of running a second port for no benefit, would complicate their arrangements for the sailings where Jonathan Swift is unable to operate and leave them with a transportation headache for
the swift's crew anytime the ferry is grounded in DL (the swift's crew "live" on board the Ulysees overnight).

Dun Laoghaire Harbour Company can "put out to tender" whatever they like, it doesn't mean anyone is obliged to provide them with a response.

I cannot imagine any other ferry company being eager to start a service in competition with IF and Stena on their busiest route, never mind the rather large problem of getting berthing space in Holyhead port which is owned and operated by Stena.

The only way anyone would be daft enough to bother would be if they were going to get a massive subvention from DLHC to cover the operating costs.

Stena only stuck with the route for so long because of their massive investment in the route and the tactical advantage of providing extra peak capacity to compete with IF, the replacement of Stena Nordica with Stena Superfast X later this year has made the use of the HSS for that purpose redundant.

RIP Dun Laoghaire - Holyhead, a historical link of huge significance to generations of Irish emmigrants.

RIP Stena Explorer, the original and last of the Concorde of the seas.

And the sincerest wish for DLHC that a tsunami will come and wash them along with their beloved Yacht Clubs out to sea. Money grubbing parasites of the worst order the lot of them.

Tabnabs · 06-02-2015 10:33am

Wow Vic_08, chip on the shoulder much?

Of course there is still one fast craft knocking around the Irish Sea that makes a seasonal visit to capital city

Be a lot faster turn around if she went in and out of DL instead.

LiamoSail · 06-02-2015 12:49pm

SimonMaher wrote: »

The Swift to Dun Laoghaire idea was just a thought that came to me when I was thinking about what might happen in DL but this being the internet I now feel I should defend it to the death!

LiamoSail, you're right that Swift wouldn't fit the HSS berth (this also answers Zagmunds question). The HSS infrastructure will have to be removed by Stena (it belongs to them) but lets leave that aside for the cruise jetty for now!

The old Stena Lynx III berth on the opposite side of the terminal is fine for pretty much immediate use though. It was renovated in 2010 when Stena operated the Lynx off season and HSS in high season. Parking is in the normal standage area and then traffic drives "under" the terminal building and on to the ramp. Swift would be fine there with a little bit of work on the ramp (to make sure it lines up!). Foot passengers have a retractable gangway directly from the terminal building.

Liamo, I don't get the "The Swift carries very little" point. Do you mean it's small or that it isn't very busy? Capacity-wise she's fine (800 passengers) and in terms of how busy she is - her numbers are actually pretty good (particularly on her morning rotation) and likely to get better without HSS. The afternoon crossing is a bit quieter and that's where the DL passengers could help. There's still a market out there for a fast service - otherwise Swift would not be running (or not) Winter and Summer.

Finally, if the service is being put out to tender, I don't think that harbour dues will be an issue somehow

Simon

I hadn't actually thought about her going alongside there, as you say, there's no reason she couldn't

What I meant by the swift carrying very little, is that she can't take many cars, and freight wise, takes almost nothing. That's where the money is, as opposed to in foot passengers.

My point is that there's very little scope for her to improve on her current numbers, as the Swift can only carry a limited amount of cars etc. relative to a conventional roro. Any marginal increase in current numbers that may result from her operating out of Dun Laoghaire would be dwarfed by the additional costs involved IMO.

Regarding the port dues, I think you're probably right, however I don't believe IF have much intention of holding on to the Swift in the long term. Epsilon has shown that they can run two ferries Dublin/Holyhead and I reckon they will continue to do so. Whether they'll renew the charter on Epsilon or look at something else, I don't know, but imo, that's the way they'll go. Stena dropping the HSS makes binning the swift all the more likely

Regarding dun Laoghaire, I think they're kidding themselves with this cruise ship talk. Having ships anchor outside the harbour and run launches in is far from ideal, while any investment in dredging, tugs, pilots, berths etc would be an investment by the state with pretty much no net gain for the state. Pointless

Maybe they'll do something with that oil around Dalky and DL would be a base for the PSV's, ERRV's etc to work out of, but unlikely I would think.

munchkin_utd · 06-02-2015 1:22pm

just thinking about the hey days compared to now.
Pre Ryanair offering cheap flights, does anyone remember how much a foot passenger would have paid for a crossing those days , or maybe bus/ sail rail ?
Was the Explorer paying for itsself by sheer numbers of passengers or were there higher prices (aloing with lower oil cost) that made financial sense

ectoraige · 06-02-2015 1:25pm

The only positive will be not having that people doing that mad dash across the city when they realise they've gone to the wrong port....

I swear it wasn't my fault!

Atlantic Dawn · 06-02-2015 5:26pm

Some drone footage Explorer

Here's the old Stena Voyager in Belfast before it was broken up...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Rrht3BNKw

SimonMaher · 10-02-2015 12:57pm

Good points made all round here (even with chips on shoulders!).

The point was made that it would be very difficult to encroach on to the territory of the two big operators on the Dublin-Holyhead corridor (Stena and IF). I think that's true, but not neccesarily impossible. Realistically, if a service is to return, it is more likely that it will be a franchise arrangement of some sort with either Stena or IF with possibly some sort of risk share going on. Let's see what (if anything) the tender process brings out.

On the IOMSPC Mannannan coming to Dun Laoghaire, I think there is definitely a logic to that particularly if there is a Seasonal fast ferry also at work. It's a tourist and car/van business and berthing slots etc are a bit more flexible in DL (given the lack of ferry traffic!). Have never been to the Isle of Man myself - would tempt me to take a trip!

Munchkin, apart from the special offers (daytrip returns, non landers etc), foot fares on the DL-Holyhead route have been remarkably consistent over the years. Someone printed a brochure up on Facebook from about 1993 with the foot fares at about £30 quid in high season. Booking a foot fare today would cost you €38.

Simon

loyatemu · 11-02-2015 6:20pm

SimonMaher wrote: »

On the IOMSPC Mannannan coming to Dun Laoghaire, I think there is definitely a logic to that particularly if there is a Seasonal fast ferry also at work. It's a tourist and car/van business and berthing slots etc are a bit more flexible in DL (given the lack of ferry traffic!). Have never been to the Isle of Man myself - would tempt me to take a trip!

Their tourist videos certainly make it look tempting...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12EeoRTWuXA

Del.Monte · 11-02-2015 8:21pm

Too good an opportunity not to give the Isle of Man a plug.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wIvO2FYoQA

and for more information than you could shake a big stick at... https://manxland.wordpress.com/

Simon2015 · 15-06-2015 5:14am

I wonder if duty free was bought back could that make the HSS economically viable ?

If England leaves the EU we could have duty free again between Ireland and the UK.

Atlantic Dawn · 15-06-2015 5:21pm

Simon2015 wrote: »

I wonder if duty free was bought back could that make the HSS economically viable ?

If England leaves the EU we could have duty free again between Ireland and the UK.

Interesting point, I suppose they would still be competing with the airlines if someone was purely doing the trip for duty free. You can get a flight for about €50-€60 return to London which would probably be the minimum fare the HSS could run at for foot passengers. If you then take the duty free limit of a bottle of spirits and 200 cigarettes the ferry would be unlikely to clear €20 profit on the sale of both.

roundymac · 16-06-2015 9:49am

Government's won't agree to it, certainly not ours anyway.

Vic_08 · 01-08-2015 6:09am

HSS Discovery at her final destination, Aliaga beach:

https://instagram.com/p/5tr7YgLkKG/

zagmund · 01-08-2015 6:54pm

I wonder how long there will be signs up in the region pointing to DL saying 'Ferry' and with a picture of a ship? There's a big motorway sign as you approach the M50/N11 split from the south for example, but there are also plenty of smaller local ones.

I met one lost van driver down at the HSS berth a while back, wondering when the next sailing was.

I suggested he might be better off heading in to Dublin instead since DL hadn't been a ferry port for quite some time.

z

Simon2015 · 01-08-2015 11:17pm

Vic_08 wrote: »

HSS Discovery at her final destination, Aliaga beach:

https://instagram.com/p/5tr7YgLkKG/

Is it going to be destroyed ?

Vic_08 · 01-08-2015 11:44pm

Simon2015 wrote: »

Is it going to be destroyed ?

Well she is not at the beach for a summer holiday. Aliaga is one of the big locations for shipbreaking. It is a very dodgy business worldwide with most ships ending up in places with little to no regulation over safety or environmental standards.

Drive or tow the ship onto the beach and have at it with whatever tools are at hand, sure what of it if some fluids get washed to sea or workers killed, scrap metal is big business as long as you can get it done cheap enough.

Unlike that former English Channel ferry the HSS Discovery would have been less dramatic, she was towed onto the beach as her engines were not serviceable after spending several years laid up in the Caribbean.

Simon2015 · 01-08-2015 11:51pm

Very sad to see it go.

When I was a kid I thought the HSS was the future and that all ferries would eventually be high speed.

Irish Steve · 10-08-2015 3:12pm

I was on the first HSS trip back in the day, and while it was a fast service, the designers were way too optimistic about the sea conditions that it could operate in, and that was a very big nail in the coffin of the HSS services, especially on the Irish Sea, which can be very hostile at times. A HSS crossing in bad weather was not a nice experience, especially if you had the misfortune to have to sit right at the edge of the ship, the vertical movement was like being in a high speed lift for most of the 2 hours, there were a few seats down near the back that didn't move so much, but getting one wasn't easy, they tended to be full pretty early on with people who knew the score on the HSS.

A fast service is nice, but the most important aspect of the service is that it has to be reliable, and that (for me) was the downfall of the HSS.

That said, the reliability was not helped at all by the crazy concept of having to reverse the thing on to the berth in Holyhead, getting it through the gap going backwards was never easy, and in some winds, it just wasn't a safe exercise. I never did explore the reasons why it wasn't turned inside the harbour, I'm guessing that there would have been too much work involved in getting adequate depth inside the area to make it possible.

And yes, the other killer was the operating cost, it used large quantities of fuel to achieve the speeds it was designed for, and the increasing numbers of low cost flights from UK airports didn't help the economics at all.

That said, my (elderly) parents prefer to travel by rail and fast ferry from the UK rather than endure the aggravations of the security checks at the airports, even though it takes longer to make the journey, but that's not always easy, the timings of the rail connections are not as friendly as they used to be in the days when the ferry and the rail services were operated by the same company, and the speed of both rail links to the UK side of the ferry routes are not good, and getting to Dublin Port without a car isn't easy either.

Another issue that's not often mentioned is that for some drivers, the HSS was too fast, the time on the ferry wasn't long enough to qualify as a "rest break" for commercial drivers, which meant they then had to take rest breaks off the ferry, again, not so much of a problem on the Irish route, but it was a big factor on the Harwich- Hook of Holland route.

There were also problems with large wake waves when they were moving at high speed, which caused a number of upsets of small craft when they were operating in restricted waters.

The last issue with HSS was that it didn't lend itself to being loaded with unaccompanied trailers, which are an increasing proportion of the RoRo freight that is carried, so that was another factor that led to the decreased use of the HSS.

It will indeed be interesting to see if Irish Ferries retain the Swift on the Dublin route, on the occasions I've used it, it seems to be well subscribed, but the advent of additional traditional ferries on the route may well have changed the balance, though the lack of foot passenger facilities on the Epsilon is a significant limitation, as if the evening Swift doesn't operate, the next crossing is nearly 10 hours wait in Holyhead, which is NOT fun as there's very little in the way of facilities in the terminal, and not exactly a lot to pass the time with in Holyhead itself.

trellheim · 11-08-2015 5:45pm

not exactly a lot to pass the time with in Holyhead itself.

A gift for understatement there.

donkey balls · 17-09-2015 8:50pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

I was on the first HSS trip back in the day, and while it was a fast service, the designers were way too optimistic about the sea conditions that it could operate in, and that was a very big nail in the coffin of the HSS services, especially on the Irish Sea, which can be very hostile at times. A HSS crossing in bad weather was not a nice experience, especially if you had the misfortune to have to sit right at the edge of the ship, the vertical movement was like being in a high speed lift for most of the 2 hours, there were a few seats down near the back that didn't move so much, but getting one wasn't easy, they tended to be full pretty early on with people who knew the score on the HSS.

A fast service is nice, but the most important aspect of the service is that it has to be reliable, and that (for me) was the downfall of the HSS.

That said, the reliability was not helped at all by the crazy concept of having to reverse the thing on to the berth in Holyhead, getting it through the gap going backwards was never easy, and in some winds, it just wasn't a safe exercise. I never did explore the reasons why it wasn't turned inside the harbour, I'm guessing that there would have been too much work involved in getting adequate depth inside the area to make it possible.

And yes, the other killer was the operating cost, it used large quantities of fuel to achieve the speeds it was designed for, and the increasing numbers of low cost flights from UK airports didn't help the economics at all.

That said, my (elderly) parents prefer to travel by rail and fast ferry from the UK rather than endure the aggravations of the security checks at the airports, even though it takes longer to make the journey, but that's not always easy, the timings of the rail connections are not as friendly as they used to be in the days when the ferry and the rail services were operated by the same company, and the speed of both rail links to the UK side of the ferry routes are not good, and getting to Dublin Port without a car isn't easy either.

Another issue that's not often mentioned is that for some drivers, the HSS was too fast, the time on the ferry wasn't long enough to qualify as a "rest break" for commercial drivers, which meant they then had to take rest breaks off the ferry, again, not so much of a problem on the Irish route, but it was a big factor on the Harwich- Hook of Holland route.

There were also problems with large wake waves when they were moving at high speed, which caused a number of upsets of small craft when they were operating in restricted waters.

The last issue with HSS was that it didn't lend itself to being loaded with unaccompanied trailers, which are an increasing proportion of the RoRo freight that is carried, so that was another factor that led to the decreased use of the HSS.

It will indeed be interesting to see if Irish Ferries retain the Swift on the Dublin route, on the occasions I've used it, it seems to be well subscribed, but the advent of additional traditional ferries on the route may well have changed the balance, though the lack of foot passenger facilities on the Epsilon is a significant limitation, as if the evening Swift doesn't operate, the next crossing is nearly 10 hours wait in Holyhead, which is NOT fun as there's very little in the way of facilities in the terminal, and not exactly a lot to pass the time with in Holyhead itself.

As a truck driver back in the day I used it on a weekly basis,The shorter sailing time would not have had any impact on the drivers rest period and the same would apply to the conventional ferry.
The only ferry that a driver could use as a rest period was P&O & Merchant ferries and Sea truck,AS these sailings where nearly 9 hours which is the minimum required break.
Another thing was the locals opposition to commercial traffic and before the building of the port tunnel and M50 extension trucks had to go through the city center to get to the port,I saw the HSS parked up in Hollyhead a while back and beside it one of the engines which looked like an aircraft jet engine.

No more HSS

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