Irish whaling?

SubBusted · 22-10-2012 7:15pm #1

Why is there no Irish whaling industry? There must be plenty of whales off the West coast as they always seem to beach here every few months. Didn't an Irishman invent the harpoon gun? Surely in this recession we need to exploit our resources and build an industry that other countries don't have access to. Is there regulation against whaling in Ireland to prevent this? Would an Irish whaling industry be sustainable or ruined by protesters and EU interference?

LiamoSail · 22-10-2012 8:47pm

SubBusted wrote: »

Why is there no Irish whaling industry? There must be plenty of whales off the West coast as they always seem to beach here every few months. Didn't an Irishman invent the harpoon gun? Surely in this recession we need to exploit our resources and build an industry that other countries don't have access to. Is there regulation against whaling in Ireland to prevent this? Would an Irish whaling industry be sustainable or ruined by protesters and EU interference?

It'd be great if there was and that whale wars programme came to Ireland. I'd work for free on the whaling ships just for an opportunity to mill those hippies, Particularly captain Birdseye, or what ever it is that fake captain goes by

goldie fish · 23-10-2012 12:10am

You may as well have a thread asking why isn't there more slaving in ireland.

Freedive Ireland · 23-10-2012 7:06pm

You might find an Irish crew a bit more militant and more apt to act but not with a TV camera behind me. Sure you'd never see me coming and I could carry my own harpoon in the speargun and see what you reckon when the harpoons start coming from the water into the boats. Maybe I would film that actually. Be a good youtube video.

There was a history of whaling in Ireland especially of basking sharks. I really believe there is an untapped market for whale watching etc but its expensive to get into. japan currently stockpiles its whalemeat and was feeding dolphin meat to the kids as school dinners until they proved the mercury levels were exceedingly high. Norway is also either whaling or trying to start again. Some of the countries blame the whales for the declining fish stocks as well. But it might just have something to do with the supertrawlers fishing in known breeding grounds as well.

I am all for the history and have read plenty on the Natucket and Marthas vineyard end of whaling and highly recommend "in the heart of the Sea" also have no issue with the Inuits taking a couple for their village. The reason whaling was banned in most countries was that they were near extinction. Remember Save the whales on T shirts in the early 80s? Its not a sustainable industry. End of.

Sharks are now pretty much in the same boat now as well.

LiamoSail wrote: »

It'd be great if there was and that whale wars programme came to Ireland. I'd work for free on the whaling ships just for an opportunity to mill those hippies, Particularly captain Birdseye, or what ever it is that fake captain goes by

goldie fish · 23-10-2012 8:14pm

1. A basking shark isn't a whale. Its a fish. A hint is in the name "shark".
2. Whaling was banned, worldwide. The reason being whales were becoming extinct. As a result of this ban, industry was forced to find an alternative source of oil. The result killed the whaling industry completely.
3. There is a market for whale meat in Japan, in the same way as there is a market for monkey meat in Africa.

cameramonkey · 23-10-2012 8:17pm

http://www.theirishstory.com/2010/11/24/filming-inishkea-whaling-station-1908/#.UIbtH4UZxWM

CJhaughey · 23-10-2012 8:28pm

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

Remember Save the whales on T shirts in the early 80s? Its not a sustainable industry. End of.

Rubbish, of course its sustainable. Its just how its managed.
The Minke population in the North Atlantic is over 100,000 and Southern Ocean is over 500,000.
Not hard to take a few hundred out of that and still be sustainable.

jamesdiver · 23-10-2012 10:35pm

Its not economical. It costs $$$ to find the whales, and you really need flat calm weather to a) spot them and b) safely catch them. The Norwegian (self imposed) quota, is barely filled annually due to those above points.

There is also the issue of bioaccumulation of toxins. As you move up the foodweb, the level of toxing increase in the animal. The processes and impacts are not fully understood yet.

Ive eaten minke whale on a norwegian vessel, and had pilot whale also. I wouldnt go mad for it to be honest, and would prefer a nice healthy oily fish anyday.

Lots of history of norwegian whaling stations in Blacksod (Belmullet) and the Iniskeas. The heritage centre in Achleam has old footage of the whalers interacting with the locals.

long range shooter · 24-10-2012 12:36am

the Norwegian Quota is about 1200 animals,but they reckon only about 500 will be caught in the season from April 1 to 31 August on the Minke whale.
And the Minke whale population in the North Atlantic is reckoned to be around 200000 animals,so between 500-1000 animals wouldnt make a huge impact on the population.
I eat Norwegian whale every week when working on Norwegian offshore vessels,great food.Highly recommended.
Pity you cant get it in Ireland,i have some great recipies.
Dont listen to all this media hysteria about whaling and posioned meat bull.,,te.

jamesdiver · 24-10-2012 10:37am

Im not listening to media hysteria re: bioaccumulation and biomagnification of toxins. Its widely published in the scientific world, in which I work. You can catch what you want, but you need a market for it. And the market is evolving these days to lean towards safe, clean catches (see Marine Stewardship Council). Im no eco-hippy, but this is the way to make money in this industry.

My main point is that the Irish fleet can barely afford to catch the pelagics in any numbers at the moment with fuel expenses etc, I dont see it being economically sustainable to pursue a fishery for whales.

However I do agree that it is damn good to eat!

CJhaughey · 24-10-2012 11:03am

jamesdiver wrote: »

My main point is that the Irish fleet can barely afford to catch the pelagics in any numbers at the moment with fuel expenses etc, I dont see it being economically sustainable to pursue a fishery for whales.

But Whaling doesn't burn that much fuel.
You aren't towing a big net for a start like a pelagic trawler, so you don't need a big engine producing big torque.
If you have ever seen the Icelandic boats the Hvalur series are steam powered for two reasons, they need to be fast and quiet.
A small easily driven vessel that is manoeuverable and fast is all thats needed.
Its a reasonably efficient way of getting large quantities of meat.

jamesdiver · 24-10-2012 11:15am

I was going along the lines of using the existing vessels; but if the discussion is about investing in a new specialised fleet for whaling...then lets continue. The points im making are directly taken from speaking with the norwegian skippers and their own idea's. That year they had a dismal season on the whales due to bad weather.

In terms of economy, a pelagic boat will more than likely know what he is catching before he puts out his nets. With whaling, you are hunting individuals, or small packs, by eye (actually i wonder what methods they use in modern whaling). so id imagine you'd burn alot of diesel in the hunt.

Anyways, its an interesting discussion. I think another interesting discussion would be the development of the tuna fishery, which isnt in such a bad state (and isnt fished by Norway at the Northerly end of its migration!!)

long range shooter · 24-10-2012 12:19pm

jamesdiver wrote: »

Im not listening to media hysteria re: bioaccumulation and biomagnification of toxins. Its widely published in the scientific world, in which I work. You can catch what you want, but you need a market for it. And the market is evolving these days to lean towards safe, clean catches (see Marine Stewardship Council). Im no eco-hippy, but this is the way to make money in this industry.

My main point is that the Irish fleet can barely afford to catch the pelagics in any numbers at the moment with fuel expenses etc, I dont see it being economically sustainable to pursue a fishery for whales.

However I do agree that it is damn good to eat!

The whale meat is going trough some pretty strict testing before it hits the market in Norway,even more strict than any other meat ,and one of the resons is the toxins that could occour in whale,mainly Mercury.
So i am not worried about eating whale at all.
Its just like eating Beef in Ireland.
And yes its no doubt that the whalers in Norway are struggling these days,because of all the media hysteria lately from Captain Barbossa,or whatever he calls him self,with no lisence, on Sea Shepard and his allies in Greenpeace,its no surprise that the market have dropped in the last 10 years.
And i know whalers in Norway personally,since i am a Norwegian skipper living in Ireland,and they would never back down,even if they have to eat the whale themselfes,thats what they told me;)
Whaling is a tradition in Norway,and willl always be.:D

Freedive Ireland · 24-10-2012 7:35pm

goldie fish wrote: »

1. A basking shark isn't a whale. Its a fish. A hint is in the name "shark".

So whats a whale shark I am totally confused? Is a lionfish related to a Lion? why do they also call it a scorpion fish when it doesnt look like a scorpion.

On mercury levels a quick search reveals older studies and a newer one from Taji that finds they have higher level's of mercury but aren't suffering from it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/09/dolphin-meat-mercury-levels-japan
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/05/030520082803.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/20/world/asia/20iht-dolphin.1.10223011.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2362-extreme-mercury-levels-revealed-in-whalemeat.html

One thing is for sure the levels are rising and while the point was made about testing in Norway some of the studies above found the high levels in meat that they bought for the research albeit in Japan but you would have thought they were capable of testing it reasonably well.

Cj
How can you possibly say its sustainable? Sperm whales were abundant in the Atlantic till they chased hunted them to near extinction and then travelled round the horn and did the same in the Pacific having to stay out longer and longer for less and less return. instead of being out for a year three became the average. Technology will mean a modern fleet The worlds governments cant manage coastal fishing so never mind international whaling. No one would police it and all bets would be off as soon as you would enter international waters. If responsible governments set quotas the catches would simply be landed and sold elsewhere. Yes there are loads of Minkes but once people see them as a source of money I wouldn't fancy their numbers in years to come.

long range shooter · 24-10-2012 10:51pm

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

So whats a whale shark I am totally confused? Is a lionfish related to a Lion? why do they also call it a scorpion fish when it doesnt look like a scorpion.

On mercury levels a quick search reveals older studies and a newer one from Taji that finds they have higher level's of mercury but aren't suffering from it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/09/dolphin-meat-mercury-levels-japan
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/05/030520082803.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/20/world/asia/20iht-dolphin.1.10223011.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2362-extreme-mercury-levels-revealed-in-whalemeat.html

One thing is for sure the levels are rising and while the point was made about testing in Norway some of the studies above found the high levels in meat that they bought for the research albeit in Japan but you would have thought they were capable of testing it reasonably well.

Cj
How can you possibly say its sustainable? Sperm whales were abundant in the Atlantic till they chased hunted them to near extinction and then travelled round the horn and did the same in the Pacific having to stay out longer and longer for less and less return. instead of being out for a year three became the average. Technology will mean a modern fleet The worlds governments cant manage coastal fishing so never mind international whaling. No one would police it and all bets would be off as soon as you would enter international waters. If responsible governments set quotas the catches would simply be landed and sold elsewhere. Yes there are loads of Minkes but once people see them as a source of money I wouldn't fancy their numbers in years to come.

It is sustainable as long as the whales are hunted in quota and in a controlled enviroment,and that it is a market for it.
But if you dont hunt them,and they become overpopulated,like the seal when the hunting was banned,it could also get out of control.
Some culling is also needed for the whales to protect the fisheries.

CJhaughey · 26-10-2012 9:36am

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

Cj
How can you possibly say its sustainable? Sperm whales were abundant in the Atlantic till they chased hunted them to near extinction and then travelled round the horn and did the same in the Pacific having to stay out longer and longer for less and less return. instead of being out for a year three became the average. Technology will mean a modern fleet The worlds governments cant manage coastal fishing so never mind international whaling. No one would police it and all bets would be off as soon as you would enter international waters. If responsible governments set quotas the catches would simply be landed and sold elsewhere. Yes there are loads of Minkes but once people see them as a source of money I wouldn't fancy their numbers in years to come.

Whats the rationale behind Minke whale hunting? Meat.
Not oil like sperm whales were hunted for.
The industrial whaling was used to provide oil to light streets among other things. These days oil is extracted from the ground and whales aren't floating oil wells.
Whaling is easily policed, observers on whaling vessels would provide data. Its already done in many fisheries and for seismic operations.

andy_g · 28-10-2012 1:12am

observers on whaling vessels would provide data.

Eh.... dont think so. thats like telling the japanese whalers that they may take one whale a year for example.

In this centuary there is no need for whaling its cruel its inhumane and if you believe whaling is just your messed in the head.

tricky D · 28-10-2012 6:35pm

Mod note

While this can be an emotive subject, bear in mind paragraph 3 of the charter and maintain civility.

/jangles keys to the brig

CJhaughey · 28-10-2012 6:38pm

andy_g wrote: »

Eh.... dont think so. thats like telling the japanese whalers that they may take one whale a year for example.

In this centuary there is no need for whaling its cruel its inhumane and if you believe whaling is just your messed in the head.

Why don't you think Observers providing data is a good thing?
You just have to have an open mind when it comes to the sustainable utilisation of resources.
I could argue that factory farming is inhumane and that some of the slaughter processes are cruel but it won't have the same effect on you because its hidden away and not sexy enough for a TV show.
The animals are more or less the same as a whale so why not protest about that?
I see it as a form of cultural imperialism coupled with a good helping of western guilt and handwringing.
The main protaganists in the industrial whaling era were the Brits/Norwegians and the US. Even clean green New Zealand only killed its last whale back in 1964.

andy_g · 28-10-2012 8:58pm

Hmmm observers you say also like alot of what you see in Irish fishing as well falsifying of document just like a trawler that goes out of dingle (not naming names for legal reasons)

Personally i do not believe it viable hell if the irish started whaling again id be the first to protest about it.

CJhaughey · 29-10-2012 7:45am

andy_g wrote: »

Hmmm observers you say also like alot of what you see in Irish fishing as well falsifying of document just like a trawler that goes out of dingle (not naming names for legal reasons)

Personally i do not believe it viable hell if the irish started whaling again id be the first to protest about it.

I can't understand what you are gibbering about?

Freedive Ireland · 01-11-2012 6:09pm

CJ not going to speak for andy but I think what he is getting at is observers wont cut it. All bets are off in the Ocean as we don't have a Navy or fisheries regeime to deal with it and then its just open to abuse anyway. I agree whales should be /could be exploited but in a sustainable way and thats by way of tourism whale watching etc. We are vastly underserved in this regard. Fishing is fcked and it has its observers and regulations and its not cos of the seals imho.

long range shooter · 02-11-2012 5:05am

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

CJ not going to speak for andy but I think what he is getting at is observers wont cut it. All bets are off in the Ocean as we don't have a Navy or fisheries regeime to deal with it and then its just open to abuse anyway. I agree whales should be /could be exploited but in a sustainable way and thats by way of tourism whale watching etc. We are vastly underserved in this regard. Fishing is fcked and it has its observers and regulations and its not cos of the seals imho.

Fishing is partly because of overfishing,and partly because of a growing seal population.
The Scottish goverment issued a lisence to kill over 1000 seals this year because of conflicts with the local fisheries.
Norway started the same a few years ago.
And in september the European Parliament weighed in, approving a resolution on a “Common Fisheries Policy” that calls on the European Commission “to investigate the reduction in fish stocks owing to natural predators such as sea lions, seals and cormorants, and to draw up and implement management plans to regulate these populations in co-operation with the affected Member States.

The strangest thing is,that this is the same European Parliament that voted in 2009 to ban commercial seal products??

So when are they going to do the same with the whaling???
Sure doesnt make sense to me:rolleyes:

CJhaughey · 02-11-2012 9:34pm

Actually Fishing is not Fcked, Fishing is good, the problem is the lack of Irish quota for most species.
Fishing is not the wild west anymore, its strictly controlled with Vessel monitoring, and electronic logbooks that relay information in realtime to the SFPA.
At present this is for larger vessels but in time it will probably include all vessels.
I don't agree with you that Observers are not a viable way of providing information, they are an integral part of many operations at sea.
Just writing them off as being irrelevant is a pretty poor argument.

Yes I agree that Whale watching is a viable way of making money but its only for a few short months.
There aren't many tourists around this time of the year and what few there are aren't likely to want to head out to sea in poor weather on the off chance of seeing some whales.
There is scope for marine tourism but ask the whale watching vessels here right now how much of a fortune they are making from it?

andy_g · 04-11-2012 8:42pm

Simple way of doing this, Whale watching all well and good.

Whale slaughtering bad.

Plus whales are not a resource they are a wild animal. If you want a resource you can get petrol for your car, gas for heating etc.

It still has no place to be placed into irish history pure and simple

Freedive Ireland · 04-11-2012 8:43pm

CJ agree theres not many making much of it now but I think there is scope and potential and yes maybe writing off all observers is a bit harsh. But the feelings between the SFPA and fishermen are anything but cordial. And the landing of boxes and boxes below in Cork or kerry shows some of this. I think fishing is fcked majorly. Increasing quotas wont work and it still is a bit of wild west offshore. certainly inshore is regulated but lets say we start whaling but with regs theres nothing to stop exporting at sea to Norwegian processors in international waters as an example and cutting out any regulations enforced in Ireland.
Theres no denying that some species of whale were nearly wiped out before and now we have more more sophisticated ways of hunting and processing. I just don't see it ending well. For the record sharks are nearly fcked too and I hope to help make Ireland fin free in the future even though we arent a major part of the problem I think it would send out a good signal.

CJhaughey · 04-11-2012 10:56pm

andy_g wrote: »

Plus whales are not a resource they are a wild animal. If you want a resource you can get petrol for your car, gas for heating etc.

What do you class a fish stock as then? Thats a resource.
Wild deer? A resource.
Whats the difference between those two examples and whales?

CJhaughey · 04-11-2012 11:06pm

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

I just don't see it ending well. For the record sharks are nearly fcked too and I hope to help make Ireland fin free in the future even though we arent a major part of the problem I think it would send out a good signal.

EU Legislation 1185/2003 already prohibits shark finning at sea.
There is no one doing it here, so saying we aren't a major part of the problem is doing Irish fishermen a grave disservice.
We aren't any part of the problem.

For the record Norway, Iceland and Greenland are already whaling and aren't wiping the whales out.
They fish to a quota which is strictly applied.
If Irish vessels were to be allowed to whale then they would fish to quotas too, sanctions can be applied to countries already much like the Mackerel dispute at present between Iceland/Faeroes and the EU.

There is no chance of whaling happening anyway as its prohibited in EU waters under current legislation.
The simple fact is that Ireland has a pitiful history of not allowing its marine resources to be developed in a mature and sustainable way.

gobnaitolunacy · 04-11-2012 11:06pm

Being totally unemotional, here's my tuppence worth.

You couldn't sell the stuff here. It'd be all export. Partly the Irish are very conservative eaters, the general population wouldn't eat half the variety of seafood our Continental friends would consume and partly the 'save the whales' revulsion factor.

You'd have to build an industry from scratch, specialised boats, equipment, processing facilities.

Don't think twould work.

CJhaughey · 05-11-2012 9:31am

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

You couldn't sell the stuff here. It'd be all export. Partly the Irish are very conservative eaters, the general population wouldn't eat half the variety of seafood our Continental friends would consume and partly the 'save the whales' revulsion factor.

You'd have to build an industry from scratch, specialised boats, equipment, processing facilities.

Most of the infrastructure is in place already, its not so different from fishing.
Seafood is all export anyway, onlya fraction of the fish landed here is consumed here.

gobnaitolunacy · 05-11-2012 9:50am

Would it be viable to ship it halfway around the world to the only mass market? (Japan)
I know Norway consume it tho how popular it is I don't know, we can ignore Greenland and the Faroe Islands as being very small scale consumers.

CJhaughey · 05-11-2012 9:55am

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Would it be viable to ship it halfway around the world to the only mass market? (Japan)
I know Norway consume it tho how popular it is I don't know, we can ignore Greenland and the Faroe Islands as being very small scale consumers.

You don't ignore any market, if you can sell stuff in it.
Lots of stuff gets flown to China from here every week, no reason to think that Japan wouldn't buy it the same way.

the_syco · 05-11-2012 10:54am

CJhaughey wrote: »

Seafood is all export anyway, onlya fraction of the fish landed here is consumed here.

I'd wonder if most of it is exported, and that a good percentage of the Irish fish we eat is imported from plants overseas?

CJhaughey · 05-11-2012 11:17am

the_syco wrote: »

I'd wonder if most of it is exported, and that a good percentage of the Irish fish we eat is imported from plants overseas?

Looking at the stuff sold in supermarkets that seems to be the case.
We are importing cheap flavourless and MSC labelled Alaska Pollack and various types of Asian Catfish and sending our top quality fish out to markets that demand it.:rolleyes:

Go into any big supermarket, and look at their frozen fish section.
You'll find frozen coated fillets, if you look at the species of fish, it will generally say Alaska Pollack.
Frozen fillets will usually be Basa catfish sometimes Tilapia.

Park Royal · 05-11-2012 11:35am

The Irish Government in 1991 made our country a whale and dolphin sanctuary

plaque below erected outside the old Tourist Office in Ballina Co Mayo.

long range shooter · 06-11-2012 1:49am

Park Royal wrote: »

The Irish Government in 1991 made our country a whale and dolphin sanctuary

plaque below erected outside the old Tourist Office in Ballina Co Mayo.

So does Canada but they are still hunting the whales:rolleyes:

andy_g · 06-11-2012 2:53pm

long range shooter wrote: »

So does Canada but they are still hunting the whales:rolleyes:

And their annual seal hunt, if you wish to throw a spanner in the works.

long range shooter · 06-11-2012 3:04pm

andy_g wrote: »

And their annual seal hunt, if you wish to throw a spanner in the works.

Correct,that EU banned in 2009,but now they seem to have changed their minds again;)
Would someone make up their minds:rolleyes::D

Irish whaling?

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