Who created the 26 counties?

indioblack · 05-09-2012 12:36am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Agree on the North/South 'geographic' bit, but my experience when working for an English company was that everyone invariably called it 'Eire' which for some reason I found more annoying. It provoked me to start referring to the branch in Wales as the office in Cymru and suggested that it be referred to as such in company literature to ensure consistency..... (Exasperated cry from Marketing Dept.- 'Look, it bloody Eire, that's what you have on you money isn't it!')

Took a parcel into the post office this morning.
"What's the destination?"
"Ireland", I said.
"Southern Ireland?"
"Yes".
I'd written EIRE in big capitals. Why? Because I've been doing it since the early 1960's on all my mail to Ireland.
The important part was "Co.Cork" - it's destination.
The main thing is my mail always arrives - perhaps the postmen in Ireland are too polite to send it back.

pedroeibar1 · 05-09-2012 8:45am

Our postal service is still a state entity, so in my experience the service is better (definitely in rural areas.)
Nobody here sees it as a 'big deal', but writing/speaking in English the name is ‘Ireland’ and ‘Eire’ when writing in Irish. Addressing an envelope to ‘Eire’ when the rest of the address is in English is rather like writing Caerdydd for an address in Cardiff.

Fratton Fred · 05-09-2012 11:59am

Is that the same postal service that writes "Eire" on its stamps?

pedroeibar1 · 05-09-2012 12:39pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Is that the same postal service that writes "Eire" on its stamps?

Yes. Like all state and semi-state entities in Ireland the postal service is encouraged to use Irish in its communication. Its name - 'An Post' - is Irish and its old postboxes have the 'P 7 T' logo, which also is Irish. 'Eire' appearing on its own on the stamps is linguistically correct.
The Irish Postal Service always uses/used Eire on its stamps, except when we were the Irish Free State, when it used the Irish translation 'Saorstat Eireann'.

Great Britain AFAIK never puts the country name on its stamps, just the monarch's head.

getz · 05-09-2012 12:59pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Yes. Like all state and semi-state entities in Ireland the postal service is encouraged to use Irish in its communication. Its name - 'An Post' - is Irish and its old postboxes have the 'P 7 T' logo, which also is Irish. 'Eire' appearing on its own on the stamps is linguistically correct.
The Irish Postal Service always uses/used Eire on its stamps, except when we were the Irish Free State, when it used the Irish translation 'Saorstat Eireann'.

Great Britain AFAIK never puts the country name on its stamps, just the monarch's head.

what country should the the people in the UK put on their stamps,england,wales,scotland,northern ireland ?dont say britain because it is not a country,

pedroeibar1 · 05-09-2012 2:26pm

getz wrote: »

what country should the the people in the UK put on their stamps,england,wales,scotland,northern ireland ?dont say britain because it is not a country,

Those in Scotland and Wales (devolved governments with a constitutional monarch) could put those names on stamps along with the monarch's head if they were allowed to do so.
My point from the outset has been that a letter addressed to
John Smith,
Main Street,
Newtown,
Co Cork.
EIRE

has the same linguistic error as a letter addressed to

John Smith,
Main Street,
Swansea,
CYMRU

MadsL · 05-09-2012 4:26pm

Is this a thread about the postal service now?

im invisible · 05-09-2012 5:04pm

I think its about to go postal allright

paky · 06-09-2012 2:58pm

whitelines wrote: »

Religion was an important parameter at that time and one on which many borders between states were settled. In any case, then as now, the terms Protestant and Catholic were as much ethnic labels as anything else. You could say that the new border was put in place in order to recognise the reality of two peoples living on the island - The Irish and The Ulster British - both entitled to self determination.

Since when was being Catholic considered to be distinctly Irish?

whitelines · 06-09-2012 11:31pm

paky wrote: »

Since when was being Catholic considered to be distinctly Irish?

Catholicism was as central to Irish identity, as Protestantism was to British identity. Had Ireland been Protestant it might well still be part of The UK, or alternatively all of Ireland might be independent.

indioblack · 07-09-2012 12:17am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Those in Scotland and Wales (devolved governments with a constitutional monarch) could put those names on stamps along with the monarch's head if they were allowed to do so.
My point from the outset has been that a letter addressed to
John Smith,
Main Street,
Newtown,
Co Cork.
EIRE

has the same linguistic error as a letter addressed to

John Smith,
Main Street,
Swansea,
CYMRU

Quite agree.
This should become a thread about the postal service - long overdue!
The point of my previous post is that my mail gets to it's destination, even if incorrectly addressed.
I use Play.com to send cds to my brother in Cork and that's addressed "Ireland" - over 250 so far - they all arrived - well done An Post.
This really should be a thread about the post office.
Why do I write "Eire" on my letters? Don't know, really - always have done - mail sent to me from people in Ireland is addressed "England", (why not?, that's where I am!)
Perhaps it should be "UK".
Doesn't matter.

MadsL · 07-09-2012 1:23am

indioblack wrote: »

Quite agree.
This should become a thread about the postal service - long overdue!

Well effing start one then!!

Mods - any chance of splitting this thread, it is seriously off topic.

indioblack · 07-09-2012 1:52pm

MadsL wrote: »

Well effing start one then!!

Mods - any chance of splitting this thread, it is seriously off topic.

Ouch!
No wish to be part of any derailment.
Who was responsible for the creation of a 26 county state?
Finally, it would be the people who signed the Treaty.

paky · 07-09-2012 2:22pm

indioblack wrote: »

Ouch!
No wish to be part of any derailment.
Who was responsible for the creation of a 26 county state?
Finally, it would be the people who signed the Treaty.

How can you say that if the government of ireland act partitioned the country prior to the signing of the treaty?

indioblack · 07-09-2012 2:38pm

paky wrote: »

How can you say that if the government of ireland act partitioned the country prior to the signing of the treaty?

But surely the Treaty confirmed this partition.

Rebelheart · 10-09-2012 12:05am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Is that the same postal service that writes "Eire" on its stamps?

I don't see our nationalistically-minded anti-Irish British friends addressing letters in English to 'Helvetia' , to take one of many examples, based on the grounds that the Swiss have Helvetia written on their stamps. In English, it's Italy, not Italia, it's Germany not Deutschland. And so on ad infinitum. It is only bigotry which breaks English language convention when it comes to Éire/Ireland.

Anyway, carry on Fratton.

Fratton Fred · 10-09-2012 9:23am

Rebelheart wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Is that the same postal service that writes "Eire" on its stamps?

I don't see our nationalistically-minded anti-Irish British friends addressing letters in English to 'Helvetia' , to take one of many examples, based on the grounds that the Swiss have Helvetia written on their stamps. In English, it's Italy, not Italia, it's Germany not Deutschland. And so on ad infinitum. It is only bigotry which breaks English language convention when it comes to Éire/Ireland. Anyway, carry on Fratton.

So writing Eire on a letter is a sign of English anti Irish bigotry?

How do you arrive at that conclusion?

By the way, as you are so keen to avoid any confusion, maybe you should correct this post and the several others you made where you refer to "The Malvinas". It is "The Falklands in English" or "Las Malvinas in Spanish".

nuac · 10-09-2012 11:19am

Paky. perhaps you are a tad obsessed about the British?

The Idyll Race · 10-09-2012 11:25am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So writing Eire on a letter is a sign of English anti Irish bigotry?

How do you arrive at that conclusion?

By the way, as you are so keen to avoid any confusion, maybe you should correct this post and the several others you made where you refer to "The Malvinas". It is "The Falklands in English" or "Las Malvinas in Spanish".

Anyone I ever knew in Britain who used "Eire", used it because they would not call the Republic of Ireland by that name and always used it in a derogatory tone, interchangable with the description "Southern Ireland", as if it wasn't a real country. So yes, calling the Republic "Eire" or "Southern Ireland" is deemed to be an insult, just as calling it "The Free State" is also meant to be derogatory.

Fratton Fred · 10-09-2012 11:35am

The Idyll Race wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So writing Eire on a letter is a sign of English anti Irish bigotry?
How do you arrive at that conclusion?
By the way, as you are so keen to avoid any confusion, maybe you should correct this post and the several others you made where you refer to "The Malvinas". It is "The Falklands in English" or "Las Malvinas in Spanish".

Anyone I ever knew in Britain who used "Eire", used it because they would not call the Republic of Ireland by that name and always used it in a derogatory tone, interchangable with the description "Southern Ireland", as if it wasn't a real country. So yes, calling the Republic "Eire" or "Southern Ireland" is deemed to be an insult, just as calling it "The Free State" is also meant to be derogatory.

Anyone I've ever known in Britain who calls it Eire does so because it is in fairly common use and easier then writing Republic of Ireland.

The same reason Eire was written in big letters around the cost so allied pilots knew where they were in wwii.

Why would someone in Britain use it in a derogatory manner? Unlike people using the Malvinas which is done purely for the sake of trolling.

The Idyll Race · 10-09-2012 11:45am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Anyone I've ever known in Britain who calls it Eire does so because it is in fairly common use and easier then writing Republic of Ireland.

The same reason Eire was written in big letters around the cost so allied pilots knew where they were in wwii.

Why would someone in Britain use it in a derogatory manner? Unlike people using the Malvinas which is done purely for the sake of trolling.

Fred, it is entirely because no-one, but no-one here in Ireland or any Irish people abroad calls the country "Éire" except for the incredibly rare exception of those speaking in Irish. Stamps and coins prove nothing, the excellent example was given earlier of "Helvetia" for Switzerland. Calling the place "Ireland" is easy. And accurate. Unless someone wants to prove a point, distinguishing between the North and the Republic is rarely necessary.

Ravelleman · 10-09-2012 11:46am

Can anyone tell me why the BBC calls Ireland 'The Irish Republic' rather than 'The Republic of Ireland'?

Fratton Fred · 10-09-2012 12:51pm

Ravelleman wrote: »

Can anyone tell me why the BBC calls Ireland 'The Irish Republic' rather than 'The Republic of Ireland'?

I've wondered that, it seems to be a policy thing.

Knowing the BBC it is probably the description that is likely to offend the fewest number of people.

Ravelleman · 10-09-2012 1:46pm

dubhthach wrote: »

So you believe that the German nation only came into existence in 1871 then?

This would depend on your interpretation of nationalism. And regardless, Germany in particular is quite difficult to pinpoint. Just off the top of my head I can think of 4 important nation-building moments - post Napoleonic occupation, 1871, Anschluss and post-Wall reunification.

Each of these could be more or less argued for regardless of whether you agree with primordialists like Fichte or historicists like Anderson (or even Renan).

Fratton Fred · 10-09-2012 1:57pm

The Idyll Race wrote: »

Fred, it is entirely because no-one, but no-one here in Ireland or any Irish people abroad calls the country "Éire" except for the incredibly rare exception of those speaking in Irish. Stamps and coins prove nothing, the excellent example was given earlier of "Helvetia" for Switzerland. Calling the place "Ireland" is easy. And accurate. Unless someone wants to prove a point, distinguishing between the North and the Republic is rarely necessary.

when you are adressing an envelope from abroad, distinguishing between the North and South is very necessary.

I'm not saying people are correct in using the name, but they aren't being offensive.

Personally I don't hear many people using it anymore and it appears to be more of a generational thing. The older generations using it more than the younger ones.

English nationalism ffs :rolleyes:

indioblack · 10-09-2012 2:50pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Anyone I've ever known in Britain who calls it Eire does so because it is in fairly common use and easier then writing Republic of Ireland.

As simple as that, Fred. There's no insult intended.
I'd accept I should have addressed my mail "Irish Republic" or "Ireland" - perhaps I will in the future - it's just an old habit.

conor.hogan.2 · 10-09-2012 7:41pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I've wondered that, it seems to be a policy thing.

Knowing the BBC it is probably the description that is likely to offend the fewest number of people.

It goes back to a UK policy around the time of the treaty of insisting on using Eire and not Éire or Ireland or Rep. of Ireland etc.

The Idyll Race · 10-09-2012 8:28pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

when you are adressing an envelope from abroad, distinguishing between the North and South is very necessary.

I'm not saying people are correct in using the name, but they aren't being offensive.

Personally I don't hear many people using it anymore and it appears to be more of a generational thing. The older generations using it more than the younger ones.

English nationalism ffs :rolleyes:

I never have a problem with the following if I am posting from the UK:

Mr Idyll Race
123 Street Name
Town Name
Co. Example
IRELAND

for the Republic, with an airmail label and EU postage,

and the following for the North as it is part of the UK:

Mr Another Name
456 Sample Name
Town Name
BT65 1AA

Works every time with a first or second class stamp..the post code system means that you don't have to add England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland to the address if you are posting from within the UK.

Fratton Fred · 10-09-2012 8:53pm

The Idyll Race wrote: »

I never have a problem with the following if I am posting from the UK:

Mr Idyll Race
123 Street Name
Town Name
Co. Example
IRELAND

for the Republic, with an airmail label and EU postage,

and the following for the North as it is part of the UK:

Mr Another Name
456 Sample Name
Town Name
BT65 1AA

Works every time with a first or second class stamp..the post code system means that you don't have to add England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland to the address if you are posting from within the UK.

Good for you.

Why are you insulted if put Eire?

(Not that I do)

Fratton Fred · 10-09-2012 8:54pm

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It goes back to a UK policy around the time of the treaty of insisting on using Eire and not Éire or Ireland or Rep. of Ireland etc.

And you can back that up can you?

FFS is this the day when half the country decides to get insulted over petty things or something?

Milk & Honey · 10-09-2012 8:58pm

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It goes back to a UK policy around the time of the treaty of insisting on using Eire and not Éire or Ireland or Rep. of Ireland etc.

Éire didn't come into use until 1937. Between 1922 and 1937 the Irish free State was the term used to describe the 26 Counties. Republic of Ireland didn't come into use until 1949. Since the Treaty was in 1921 the UK could not have had a policy of not using Éire or the Republic of Ireland.

The Idyll Race · 10-09-2012 9:01pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Good for you.

Why are you insulted if put Eire?

(Not that I do)

Not insulted, but perplexed as to why call the country by a name nobody uses?

conor.hogan.2 · 10-09-2012 9:23pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And you can back that up can you?

FFS is this the day when half the country decides to get insulted over petty things or something?

Can I back up a fact? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Éire#Use_of_Eire_in_Britain_and_the_US and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Irish_state#.22Eire.22_and_.22.C3.89ire.22_v_Ireland

You trace up the multiple footnotes there.

I am not insulted, just answering your question on it being a policy. It was a policy.

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Éire didn't come into use until 1937. Between 1922 and 1937 the Irish free State was the term used to describe the 26 Counties. Republic of Ireland didn't come into use until 1949. Since the Treaty was in 1921 the UK could not have had a policy of not using Éire or the Republic of Ireland.

Éire is a name, around a lot longer than 1937 or 1922. I never said anything about the political entity. I said the name, the name used in the treaty was Eire and not Éire.

Fratton Fred · 10-09-2012 9:42pm

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And you can back that up can you?

FFS is this the day when half the country decides to get insulted over petty things or something?

Can I back up a fact? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Éire#Use_of_Eire_in_Britain_and_the_US and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Irish_state#.22Eire.22_and_.22.C3.89ire.22_v_Ireland

You trace up the multiple footnotes there.

I am not insulted, just answering your question on it being a policy. It was a policy.

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Éire didn't come into use until 1937. Between 1922 and 1937 the Irish free State was the term used to describe the 26 Counties. Republic of Ireland didn't come into use until 1949. Since the Treaty was in 1921 the UK could not have had a policy of not using Éire or the Republic of Ireland.

Éire is a name, around a lot longer than 1937 or 1922. I never said anything about the political entity. I said the name, the name used in the treaty was Eire and not Éire.

Sounds to me as though even the Irish government didn't know what the country was called.

indioblack · 10-09-2012 10:17pm

The Idyll Race wrote: »

Not insulted, but perplexed as to why call the country by a name nobody uses?

Apart from An Post.
The funny thing is, if I simply put "Co.Cork" as the last line of the address it would probably still get there.
I'll try to remember to write "Ireland" next time. It'll be the first time since 1968.
Shame, really - I actually liked "Eire". Gave it more of a Celtic feel.

Milk & Honey · 11-09-2012 7:00pm

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Éire is a name, around a lot longer than 1937 or 1922. I never said anything about the political entity. I said the name, the name used in the treaty was Eire and not Éire.

Where in the Treaty is the Eire used? It was drafted in English. The word Eire does not appear in it.

conor.hogan.2 · 12-09-2012 11:45pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eire_(Confirmation_of_Agreements)_Act_1938

Act not treaty, my bad. But the point is, it was a policy to call it that and that is pretty much where the BBC got it from. Éireann was in use but not "officially" before and it was a conscious policy to refer to the new entity as Eire with no fada.

Milk & Honey · 13-09-2012 12:01am

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eire_(Confirmation_of_Agreements)_Act_1938

Act not treaty, my bad. But the point is, it was a policy to call it that and that is pretty much where the BBC got it from. Éireann was in use but not "officially" before and it was a conscious policy to refer to the new entity as Eire with no fada.

That Act was in 1938. The British didn't start using the term Eire until then, which is what I said. They do not like referring to the Southern state as Ireland, because the still retain a portion of Ireland themselves.

dubhthach · 13-09-2012 12:03am

Éireann is the genitive clause of Éire, to use Éireann as the name of the country would be gramatically wrong in the Irish language.

eire of course has a completely different meaning as well as pronunciation to Éire.

ezra_pound · 03-08-2013 10:07pm

The name of the state is Éire or in English, Ireland. Britain refused to refer to us as Ireland until the mid nineties mainly because the term can also be usedto refer to the entire island.

corktina · 04-08-2013 4:16pm

what did they call it instead up to then? Always referred to as the Republic of Ireland when I lived there, nothing wrong with that.

It's Ireland and it's a Republic...just as France is the Republic of France...

The only reason that they use the "Republic of" bit is to clarify that they are not referring to the North or to the geographical island.

ezra_pound · 04-08-2013 4:26pm

corktina wrote: »

what did they call it instead up to then? Always referred to as the Republic of Ireland when I lived there, nothing wrong with that.

It's Ireland and it's a Republic...just as France is the Republic of France...

The only reason that they use the "Republic of" bit is to clarify that they are not referring to the North or to the geographical island.

The point is that they refused to call it by its official name.

corktina · 04-08-2013 5:21pm

no they didn't.... what did they call it instead...?

camphor · 04-08-2013 5:28pm

The government of Ireland Act 1920 created Southern Ireland and Northern ireland. As far as the British were concerned the official name of was the name they have given it. The The Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922created the Irish Free State. The British still regard that Act as the legal basis of the Southern Irish State.

ezra_pound · 04-08-2013 5:41pm

corktina wrote: »

no they didn't.... what did they call it instead...?

Oh yes they did.

Eire , roi, republic of Ireland.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Irish_state

The United Kingdom (part of which, Northern Ireland, constitutes one sixth of the territory of the island of Ireland), objected to the political implications of the adoption of the name Ireland on the basis that it constituted an irredentist claim to sovereignty over the entire island of Ireland.[3] However, that name was internationally recognised by the early 1960s and since the end of the 1990s has been accepted by the United Kingdom.[3]

corktina · 04-08-2013 6:14pm

there's nothing wrong with describing it as the Republic of Ireland, that's what it is.

ezra_pound · 04-08-2013 7:04pm

corktina wrote: »

there's nothing wrong with describing it as the Republic of Ireland, that's what it is.

That's not the point. The point is that Britain refused to call the state Ireland, which is its name. The official description of the state is the republic of Ireland so yes it is perfectly OK to describe it as such. ;]

ezra_pound · 04-08-2013 7:11pm

You do understand the meaning of the Word refuse, do you?

camphor · 04-08-2013 7:25pm

corktina wrote: »

there's nothing wrong with describing it as the Republic of Ireland, that's what it is.

Tell that to the High Court. Extradition requests to the Republic of Ireland are refused. The name of the state is Ireland.

ezra_pound · 04-08-2013 7:35pm

camphor wrote: »

Tell that to the High Court. Extradition requests to the Republic of Ireland are refused. The name of the state is Ireland.

Yes. I know. I've been saying that for the past 10 posts. However the official description of the state is the republic of Ireland. In a summons and court pleadings a name must be used not a description.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Irish_state

Since 1949 the Republic of Ireland Act has provided that the Republic of Ireland (or Poblacht na hÉireann in Irish) is the legal description for the state.[5] However, Ireland remains the constitutional name of the state.

The constitutional name Ireland is normally used. However, the legal description Republic of Ireland is sometimes used when disambiguation is desired between the state and the island of Ireland. In colloquial use this is often shortened to 'the Republic'.

This distinction between description and name was and remains important because the Act was not a constitutional amendment and did not change the name of the state. If it had purported to do so, it would have been unconstitutional. The distinction between a description and a name has sometimes caused confusion. The Taoiseach, John A. Costello introduced the legislation with an explanation of the difference in the following way:[6]

If I say that my name is Costello and that my description is that of senior counsel, I think that will be clear to anybody who wants to know...[Similarly, the state's] name in Irish is Éire and in the English language, Ireland. Its description in the English language is "the Republic of Ireland."

Who created the 26 counties?

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