Football Leaks: UEFA Investigation into Manchester City

Harry Palmr · 02-11-2018 8:20pm #1

https://twitter.com/iMiaSanMia/status/1058409438850224128

Bayern & Germany
@iMiaSanMia
According to Football Leaks, 16 European top clubs including Bayern plan to sign a letter of intent later this month to start plans of establishing a new Super League. Bayern have even made a check of int'l law in 2016 on how to leave the Bundesliga & UCL.
5:24 PM - Nov 2, 2018

Alleged outline for the clubs, note Founders and Initial Guests!

Regardless of the potential oneupmanship (who's in/who's out), this notion has been floating around for years and the commercial logic is hard to argue against. Presumably it would replace the Champions League and as such wouldn't really impose that much more of a strain as you have to play half a season of matches to win that competition and presumably most teams who compete in it are set up to try to.

Mr.Nice Guy · 02-11-2018 8:29pm

Rather than replacing the Champions League, according to Der Spiegel's article, Bayern chairman Karl-Heinz Rummenigge was looking at it replacing the domestic league.

This week the investigative series reveals:

- that FC Bayern Munich checked whether and how it could leave the Bundesliga to join a European "Super League".

Der Spiegel describe it as "a revolution against UEFA by the largest European clubs."

Just thinking about Tottenham's issues with paying off the stadium, this would be a big blow to them. Also harsh on the likes of Napoli, Valencia and Lyon.

Harry Palmr · 02-11-2018 8:38pm

Ah that's just daft, the Premier League is huge worth more than a Super League and it would mean a rather short season with 16 clubs! And if it happened who would buy the rights? Sky? They couldn't afford both (devalued) PL and SL, is Amazon's time coming?

salmocab · 02-11-2018 8:41pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Ah that's just daft, the Premier League is huge worth more than a Super League and it would mean a rather short season with 16 clubs! And if it happened who would buy the rights? Sky? They couldn't afford both (devalued) PL and SL, is Amazon's time coming?

Whilst I agree that the idea is daft, not sure the PL would be worth more.

TitianGerm · 02-11-2018 8:43pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Ah that's just daft, the Premier League is huge worth more than a Super League and it would mean a rather short season with 16 clubs! And if it happened who would buy the rights? Sky? They couldn't afford both (devalued) PL and SL, is Amazon's time coming?

Amazon, Netflix or sell their own packages.

If United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea left the PL the TV rights would collapse. No one will pay current rates to see a league with no big teams.

Harry Palmr · 02-11-2018 8:44pm

re salmocab

It is as it stands, this would decapitate it though and then the Super League would be worth more.

dan1895 · 02-11-2018 8:45pm

The end is nigh.

LeBash · 02-11-2018 8:48pm

Why don't they just change the format of the champions league to a league format, reduced teams and bring the UEFA cup back to life.

Surely the club's realise 2 or 3 will be the whipping boys and another 3 or 4 will be constantly struggling. How will that impact the club's value, etc.

Harry Palmr · 02-11-2018 8:51pm

DW Sports
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Bayern have responded stating they were aware of "neither the existence nor the content" of the term sheet draft.*

.

Adamcp898 · 02-11-2018 9:23pm

https://www.ft.com/content/245da042-dd1a-11e8-8f50-cbae5495d92b

Keep in mind the real fight going on. This 'leak' is very convenient given it's timing around potential FIFA votes.

Fifa want their drastically expanded Club World Cup to run every year and be their new cash cow. The major European Clubs, and UEFA, either want more than their fair slice of the proceeds or for it not to happen at all.

This super league would scupper everything and is still the same point of leverage imo, it's just being used against FIFA instead of solely UEFA this time.

Google Uefa plans heavyweight defence against Fifa shake-up for the link

salmocab · 02-11-2018 9:37pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

re salmocab

It is as it stands, this would decapitate it though and then the Super League would be worth more.

Well yeah as it stands, but a PL shorn of its top clubs would be far behind a euro league made up of all the top clubs.

Mr.Nice Guy · 02-11-2018 9:44pm

New leak:

https://twitter.com/GFFN/status/1058452220985913351

If true, UEFA are an embarrassment.

TheCitizen · 02-11-2018 10:06pm

Looks like it's modelled on the NFL. No relegation, no promotion into it. Only way to get in would be if one of them went bust. Would also impact negatively on international football. It would kill the game.

ERG89 · 02-11-2018 10:23pm

Waiting for something bad from AC Milan to appear in these leaks. The last setup was so clearly dodgy they didn't so much cook the books they boiled, poached, fried and baked them.

IncognitoMan · 02-11-2018 10:26pm

Big teams are such because they have been successful over long periods in their respective countries. If they all join one league and it's dominated by 2 or 3 clubs then most won't be that "big" anymore.

The Champions League has room for improvement for sure but replacing it with a no relegation super league playing the same sides every year is a really bad idea.

Agent Coulson · 02-11-2018 10:51pm

Ah poor Spurs weren't named.

Harry Palmr · 02-11-2018 10:53pm

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Ah poor Spurs weren't named.

The real scandal is that Man City are grouped with multiple winners of the top trophies in Europe.

Tom Mann Centuria · 02-11-2018 10:59pm

I'd have no problems with all these teams going off to play in their closed shop league so long as they didn't play in any domestic competition. None of their cast off b teams in the league though please, which the spineless English leagues would, I'm sure, allow.

J. Marston · 02-11-2018 11:37pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

New leak:

https://twitter.com/GFFN/status/1058452220985913351

If true, UEFA are an embarrassment.

And City fans boo the Champions League anthem because they think big bad UEFA are out to get them.

Coillte_Bhoy · 02-11-2018 11:55pm

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

I'd have no problems with all these teams going off to play in their closed shop league so long as they didn't play in any domestic competition. None of their cast off b teams in the league though please, which the spineless English leagues would, I'm sure, allow.

This but otherwise let them off.

Shanotheslayer · 03-11-2018 12:22am

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The real scandal is that Man City are grouped with multiple winners of the top trophies in Europe.

As opposed to teams that haven't won a league or a trophy in Europe in donkeys.

Sure it's scandalous that Ajax and Notts Forest aren't in it

Shanotheslayer · 03-11-2018 12:22am

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The real scandal is that Man City are grouped with multiple winners of the top trophies in Europe.

As opposed to teams that haven't won a league or a trophy in Europe in donkeys.

Sure it's scandalous that Ajax and Notts Forest aren't in it

Harry Palmr · 03-11-2018 12:48am

Say what you like mentioning Man City in a European context is like mentioning Everton or Spurs. Liverpool is still a name on le Continent, that's just the fact of it.

Shanotheslayer · 03-11-2018 12:55am

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Say what you like mentioning Man City in a European context is like mentioning Everton or Spurs. Liverpool is still a name on le Continent, that's just the fact of it.

It's a European super League. As in the league of the best teams in Europe. I didn't think that would be hard to grasp

Ajax also won 4 European trophies so I guess they should be there by your logic?

IncognitoMan · 03-11-2018 1:01am

Ajax are a big club with plenty of support, currently get ~50k at home, it's just they play in a lesser league. If they were added to a league where they got huge TV money they would soon improve revenue and support would probably also increase.

They would be the whipping boys of the league for the first 5-10 years though no doubt.

Agent Coulson · 03-11-2018 1:11am

All former European Cup winners and Champions League winners should be in.

ERG89 · 03-11-2018 1:13am

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

As opposed to teams that haven't won a league or a trophy in Europe in donkeys.

Sure it's scandalous that Ajax and Notts Forest aren't in it

Ajax last won the CL it in 95, whereas Juve haven't won it since 96 against Ajax coincidently. Ajax aren't what they were but they aren't a side living off the 70's.

Bobeagleburger · 03-11-2018 1:17am

Replacing the domestic league? :pac:

DM_7 · 03-11-2018 1:20am

Can anyone fill me in or link me to something that will tell me why I should believe in anything from football leaks?

Is this one group or just a term for any outlet running 'leaked' documents?

Mr.Nice Guy · 03-11-2018 1:40am

DM_7 wrote: »

Can anyone fill me in or link me to something that will tell me why I should believe in anything from football leaks?

Is this one group or just a term for any outlet running 'leaked' documents?

According to Der Spiegel's article, "The revelations are based on data from the Football Leaks platform, which made the information available exclusively to Der Spiegel for evaluation. The news magazine then shared it with the European Investigative Collaborations (EIC) network and with NDR." (NDR is Norddeutscher Rundfunk, a German public broadcaster that will be showing a documentary on the disclosures this Sunday.)

Cantona's Collars · 03-11-2018 1:44am

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

New leak:

https://twitter.com/GFFN/status/1058452220985913351

If true, UEFA are an embarrassment.

The brown envelopes that certain powerful men running it at the time helped. I wonder if Infantino will fall on his sword or will a team of lawyers paid for by a Gulf state help him brazen this out?

CSF · 03-11-2018 4:30am

Agent Coulson wrote: »

All former European Cup winners and Champions League winners should be in.

Nottingham Forest would clearly be a huge addition.

OldMrBrennan83 · 03-11-2018 4:39am

I'd love to see this happen for the fall-out.

Minderbinder · 03-11-2018 5:09am

If they all sign a letter of intent this month then I hope the domestic leagues can kick all these clubs out instantly. If that can't be done then at least the remaining clubs should refuse to play against them for their remaining two and half years.
Personally I'd have no interest whatsoever in watching United against Bayern on a Saturday afternoon. Everything United have done in the English game would be as good as wiped from history imo. Same for the other clubs. That history and the idea that it's like a never-ending story is what keeps me interested in the game itself. Starting from scratch with a new league playing against teams I don't really care about just wouldn't interest me.
I don't really see the financial sense of this tbh. Surely fans are not that dumb that they will just buy any product these clubs put in front of them. This product sucks.

gstack166 · 03-11-2018 7:50am

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

New leak:

https://twitter.com/GFFN/status/1058452220985913351

If true, UEFA are an embarrassment.

You couldn’t be more further wrong. UEFA are an embarrassment for bringing the rule in in the first place, trying to protect the elite was it’s only service.

Worth noting; PSG and City both threatened UEFA with legal action. Gianni Infantino (then at UEFA) did deal to avoid the courts. This brings up that old question, is FFP legal? I’d sincerely doubt it.

Richard Hillman · 03-11-2018 8:00am

It's just a matter of time folks

Agent Coulson · 03-11-2018 11:24am

CSF wrote: »

Nottingham Forest would clearly be a huge addition.

All they need is MON as manager you know that man who won it twice.

Fr Tod Umptious · 03-11-2018 11:39am

Richard Hillman wrote: »

It's just a matter of time folks

It has just been a matter of time since the 80s.

The premier league and the champions league have kept it at bay and out of the news for the last few decades.

But with a changing media landscape clubs are probably looking at their options again.

ERG89 · 03-11-2018 12:14pm

It's been inevitable but I think the idea ain't great long term. Big games will feel so formulaic & a lot of derby's go out the window long term. It'd be fun for a few years but I couldn't see it help young players developing which is an issue now with some big nations. It would isolate a lot of fans too. Are many going to follow a United or Milan to every away game which is feasible now for fans but long term if your hitting multiple countries every few weeks for a whole season people will stop going when the charm wears away.

A lot of small issues too.
How can these clubs know how good a player is that they are going to buy from outside the league if they are only playing against Leicester, Lazio, Valencia or Lyon for years.
Same for hiring managers, before anyone says internationals go look at the guys in charge of International teams & ask would you want them at your club. The no relegation thing will make a lot of it meaningless too. A lot of sides chuck it in effort wise when they are safe now so hypothetically 8 games into a season if Milan are on 4 points will they try as they won't get relegated and won't win the league so why bother???

Big issue with football now is that it's expensive to be a fan even without going to games you are juggling 3 subscriptions if you want to watch club football. Before anyone says the usual "go to games" I'd love to know how it's physically or financially possible to go to games I watch in multiple countries every weekend.
I often feel like money I pay is being wasted on clowns of pundits rather than what I'm actually paying for.

namloc1980 · 03-11-2018 12:30pm

Would have zero interest in this. But these clubs want to tap into the far East market where this would go down a treat. This is all about money and TV, with little care for the clubs own fans.

IncognitoMan · 03-11-2018 12:43pm

gstack166 wrote: »

You couldn’t be more further wrong. UEFA are an embarrassment for bringing the rule in in the first place, trying to protect the elite was it’s only service.

Worth noting; PSG and City both threatened UEFA with legal action. Gianni Infantino (then at UEFA) did deal to avoid the courts. This brings up that old question, is FFP legal? I’d sincerely doubt it.

It also protects clubs who couldn't survive without a sugar daddy from going crazy on initial investment and then folding if that sugar daddy gets bored.

There's nothing wrong with coming in and building a club up slowly until it's able to make it's own money to compete. Throwing 1b+ at a small clubs will destroy some.

Hell even look at the damage that Leeds suffered from going too big too quickly.

gstack166 · 03-11-2018 12:47pm

IncognitoMan wrote: »

It also protects clubs who couldn't survive without a sugar daddy from going crazy on initial investment and then folding if that sugar daddy gets bored.

There's nothing wrong with coming in and building a club up slowly until it's able to make it's own money to compete. Throwing 1b+ at a small clubs will destroy some.

Hell even look at the damage that Leeds suffered from going too big too quickly.

Even though I agree with your points, that wasn’t the reason FFP was brought in, you know it, everyone knows it.

It was flawed from beginning to end. The club passed FFP first time & the rules were changed AGAIN, & they failed it by £30m

PSG & City pointed out FFP was illegal in Europe & restrictive to trade (you can't punish a company that's investing in itself) and it also cemented worse offenders to the top.

Therefore, UEFA backed off before PSG & City's lawyers took them to the cleaners!

IncognitoMan · 03-11-2018 1:48pm

gstack166 wrote: »

Even though I agree with your points, that wasn’t the reason FFP was brought in, you know it, everyone knows it.

If it was or wasn't that's the reason it must be implemented long term. Just because it has worked for City so far doesn't mean that other clubs won't need protecting. All it takes is one bored billionaire who fancies owing a club for a while and gets bored after a couple of years to completely destroy a community.

It was flawed from beginning to end. The club passed FFP first time & the rules were changed AGAIN, & they failed it by £30m

What did they change?

I think City got off very lightly to be honest, they took the piss. A precedent should have been set and they should have been removed from the champions league that season. PSG as well.

PSG & City pointed out FFP was illegal in Europe & restrictive to trade (you can't punish a company that's investing in itself) and it also cemented worse offenders to the top.

Therefore, UEFA backed off before PSG & City's lawyers took them to the cleaners!

Uefa are under no obligation as far as I'm aware to give a club a spot in the Champions League. That should always have been the punishment not fines, but of course Uefa are too corrupt to do the right thing.

Coillte_Bhoy · 03-11-2018 1:55pm

Agent Coulson wrote: »

All they need is MON as manager you know that man who won it twice.

Whoever told you that?

gstack166 · 03-11-2018 2:15pm

IncognitoMan wrote: »

If it was or wasn't that's the reason it must be implemented long term. Just because it has worked for City so far doesn't mean that other clubs won't need protecting. All it takes is one bored billionaire who fancies owing a club for a while and gets bored after a couple of years to completely destroy a community.

What did they change?

I think City got off very lightly to be honest, they took the piss. A precedent should have been set and they should have been removed from the champions league that season. PSG as well.

Uefa are under no obligation as far as I'm aware to give a club a spot in the Champions League. That should always have been the punishment not fines, but of course Uefa are too corrupt to do the right thing.

Well why didn’t they do it 15 years ago when Leeds & Portsmouth nearly sank? They did it when new memebers tried breaking the monopoly, not when clubs struggled to over spending.

Did it take the Sheiks to buy a club tonrealise that over spending could damage a club?

City & PSG closed the gap & made it less of a private memebers club & the elite clubs Munich especially who see no wrong doing in cherry picking all the best players from the teams in their league but consider other clubs spending lots of money as cheating.

I reiterate that I’m not arguing against the points made here to FFP, but it’s corrupted to suit a few at the top is what I’m saying.

Why have a competition or sport in garner alone if lesser clubs are forbidden to compete how they see fit.

gstack166 · 03-11-2018 2:15pm

IncognitoMan wrote: »

If it was or wasn't that's the reason it must be implemented long term. Just because it has worked for City so far doesn't mean that other clubs won't need protecting. All it takes is one bored billionaire who fancies owing a club for a while and gets bored after a couple of years to completely destroy a community.

What did they change?

I think City got off very lightly to be honest, they took the piss. A precedent should have been set and they should have been removed from the champions league that season. PSG as well.

Uefa are under no obligation as far as I'm aware to give a club a spot in the Champions League. That should always have been the punishment not fines, but of course Uefa are too corrupt to do the right thing.

Well why didn’t they do it 15 years ago when Leeds & Portsmouth nearly sank? They did it when new memebers tried breaking the monopoly, not when clubs struggled to over spending.

Did it take the Sheiks to buy a club tonrealise that over spending could damage a club?

City & PSG closed the gap & made it less of a private memebers club & the elite clubs Munich especially who see no wrong doing in cherry picking all the best players from the teams in their league but consider other clubs spending lots of money as cheating.

I reiterate that I’m not arguing against the points made here to FFP, but it’s corrupted to suit a few at the top is what I’m saying.

Why have a competition or sport in general if lesser clubs are forbidden to compete how they see fit.

IncognitoMan · 03-11-2018 2:56pm

gstack166 wrote: »

Well why didn’t they do it 15 years ago when Leeds & Portsmouth nearly sank?

Yeah for those clubs it's a shame that it wasn't. It's also a shame it wasn't in place to stop something like the Glaziers at United.

Did it take the Sheiks to buy a club tonrealise that over spending could damage a club?

Doing it on a much larger scale than ever before. Pumping billions into clubs that could never generate that kind of cash. It's a recipe for disaster.

City & PSG closed the gap & made it less of a private memebers club & the elite clubs Munich especially who see no wrong doing in cherry picking all the best players from the teams in their league but consider other clubs spending lots of money as cheating.

To be fair the German model is a good one. Nobody can ever just come in and buy a club as a toy or PR venture. Bayern are in total control because they run themselves brilliantly and have earned that success. It's not that strange that they see the oil money as both unfair and dangerous.

I reiterate that I’m not arguing against the points made here to FFP, but it’s corrupted to suit a few at the top is what I’m saying.

It's failed to punish the clubs who should have been punished. Corrupt for sure.

Why have a competition or sport in general if lesser clubs are forbidden to compete how they see fit.

Do it, but do it in a long term plan not just spend your way to top increasing transfer fees and wages across the board because an oil billionaire is either bored and wants a toy or wants a club to act as positive PR in the western world.

It creates problems at not only the clubs with the sugar daddy but also those have to compete with it. It's bad for the game all round.

monkey9 · 03-11-2018 3:02pm

A European Super League is something that's been mooted for a couple of decades at least and i've always hated the thought of it's existence. I'd be totally against any club leaving their domestic league. European football as it is should be enough in terms of the big clubs competing against each other.

IncognitoMan · 03-11-2018 3:13pm

I'd be more in favor of the Champions League dropping the group stage altogether and going knockout all the way. Not sure how it would be worked but could go back to one big European Cup instead of CL and EL and have it knockout football all the way and one true winner at the end.

But that probably doesn't give the best chance to make money.

03-11-2018 3:45pm

Clubs could well end up regretting this if they push on. Broadcasting rights money is plateauing. It's all about branding and **** but that only brings in so much actual cash. Going from around 30 home matches per season to 15 and having to match the money from both the CL and domestic league will be tough I would have thought.

gstack166 · 03-11-2018 4:36pm

IncognitoMan wrote: »

Yeah for those clubs it's a shame that it wasn't. It's also a shame it wasn't in place to stop something like the Glaziers at United.

Doing it on a much larger scale than ever before. Pumping billions into clubs that could never generate that kind of cash. It's a recipe for disaster.

To be fair the German model is a good one. Nobody can ever just come in and buy a club as a toy or PR venture. Bayern are in total control because they run themselves brilliantly and have earned that success. It's not that strange that they see the oil money as both unfair and dangerous.

It's failed to punish the clubs who should have been punished. Corrupt for sure.

Do it, but do it in a long term plan not just spend your way to top increasing transfer fees and wages across the board because an oil billionaire is either bored and wants a toy or wants a club to act as positive PR in the western world.

It creates problems at not only the clubs with the sugar daddy but also those have to compete with it. It's bad for the game all round.

City don't have a case to answer here. In 2013/14 They accepted their dodgy fine (took a pinch to keep elite cartel happy) and everyone included UEFA moved on. City are now a self sufficient company, making decent profits from now undervalued sponsorships.

Listen to the football financial advisors on SSN they’ve been echoing this for a year now that their Nike deal especially is tremendously undervalued as is their recently signed Puma deal which includes sister club Girona FC

Football Leaks: UEFA Investigation into Manchester City

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