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Helmets - the definitive thread.. ** Mod Note - Please read Opening Post **

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    #1382
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    Are such devices tested/approved by the RSA?

    I think that helmets are only tested by the EN standards people, and that's just the standard anvil drop test. So it wouldn't involve the back of the helmet, and they don't do any measurements; they just look to make sure the helmet doesn't crack after the drop (1.5m drop).


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    #1383
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    Even if they are built into the straps, I'd be wary of the damage such devices could cause in an accident as you'd never know what way the helmet, straps and anything attached would be yanked and in what direction.

    There are many places to attach lights on a bike and to clothing. I'd avoid embedding or attaching devices to helmets. A bright coloured finish and some effective reflective material would be the best approach. If you feel the need to wear a helmet, then you should be cautious too about creating additional risks.

    Are such devices tested/approved by the RSA?

    I support this observation - there is already concern that helmets might increase angular acceleration or "twisting" forces in the event of a crash.

    It seems intuitive to me that if you add cameras and lights and so on that this would increase the chances of rotating the helmet and anything it is strapped to.


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    #1384
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Traumadoc wrote: »
    Actually there why don't they give the percentage of Irish cyclists killed who were wearing helmets? What percentage of the spinal injuries were wearing helmets?
    If the RSA was serious about cyclist mortality and morbidity, they would be concentrating on minimum passing distance rather than forcing cyclists to wear a helmet?
    Most of those running the RSA are professional board members with no qualifications to discuss road safety. This is why the RSA's attitude to road safety is more Helen Lovejoy than Elon Musk.

    The only ones with any passing resemblence to "qualified" are a former traffic Garda, a doctor of rehabilitation and a civil engineer.

    The rest are politicians and arts graduates.


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    #1385
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Exacerbation of rotational acceleration was brought up when Michael Schumacher was badly injured, as there was a GoPro or something like that on his helmet.

    Seems possible, for sure, but I don't think it's been investigated at all.

    The inbuilt helmet light doesn't protrude though.


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    #1386
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,494 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    Exacerbation of rotational acceleration was brought up when Michael Schumacher was badly injured, as there was a GoPro or something like that on his helmet.

    Seems possible, for sure, but I don't think it's been investigated at all.

    The inbuilt helmet light doesn't protrude though.

    That was the claim by his medical team, that the camera added severe (I presume rotational) force that would otherwise not have happened.

    I have no idea whether this is true or not but its a reasonable postulation, but I wouldn't read into it without further study.

    The lights that are built in are part of the design, so I can't see any increased risk for them but a light stuck onto the helmet or a camera, its a theory, worth investigating fi nothing else but then, in the real world, how much would it cost and does it happen regularly enough to justify it?


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    #1387
    check_six
    Registered Users Posts: 2,245 ✭✭✭check_six


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    Even if they are built into the straps, I'd be wary of the damage such devices could cause in an accident as you'd never know what way the helmet, straps and anything attached would be yanked and in what direction.

    The big polystrene hat strapped to your head is going to be doing most of the yanking if you have a spill, never mind any LED with a button battery built into the fitting-dial. If you are wary of any helmet having this kind of rotational effect that's okay, if you are only wary of a helmet if there is something else on it, then maybe you need to readjust your sights.

    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    There are many places to attach lights on a bike and to clothing. I'd avoid embedding or attaching devices to helmets. A bright coloured finish and some effective reflective material would be the best approach. If you feel the need to wear a helmet, then you should be cautious too about creating additional risks.

    In your place, I'd consult the helmet designers with your concerns. They are bound by pretty loose regulations, so maybe they just haven't seen this danger you have pointed to.

    The useful part of the light on a helmet is that it aids lighting up small kids on bikes that have limited scope for good light positioning at the back. (The seat post is very short, the seat stays are at a low angle, etc.).

    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    Are such devices tested/approved by the RSA?

    If it's not a hi-vis jacket with non-reflective reflective stripes produced by the fella down the road, then no.


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    #1388
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    check_six wrote: »
    The big polystrene hat strapped to your head is going to be doing most of the yanking if you have a spill, never mind any LED with a button battery built into the fitting-dial.
    It's not that such a device will contribute to the rotational force, but that the device will itself cause injury if pulled towards the neck or skull during an impact.


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    #1389
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    check_six wrote: »
    If it's not a hi-vis jacket with non-reflective reflective stripes produced by the fella down the road, then no.

    You have a long memory!


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    #1390
    check_six
    Registered Users Posts: 2,245 ✭✭✭check_six


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    You have a long memory!

    Well, if I didn't remember, how would I know who to maroon on Rockall when the revolution comes?

    I'm sure a number of names spring to your mind immediately.

    By the way I'm still hiring for someone to deliver good solid kicks up the backside to the prospective maroonies as we load them onto a ferry as a parting gift from the good people of Ireland.


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    #1391
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,494 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    It's not that such a device will contribute to the rotational force, but that the device will itself cause injury if pulled towards the neck or skull during an impact.
    The built in ones? I am not sure how it would happen but any force that would cause that to happen will most likely have killed the wearer regardless.

    If you are talking about where people stick on lights (or cameras) to their helmets, then maybe, there is a possibility of making an impact worse.
    tomasrojo wrote: »
    You have a long memory!
    Its hardly that long ago since those non reflective strips were shared out by the AGS and the RSA.


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    #1392
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    check_six wrote: »
    Its hardly that long ago since those non reflective strips were shared out by the AGS and the RSA.

    Well, over two years ago. I have small children. Seems like ages ago.


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    #1393
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    seamus wrote: »
    Most of those running the RSA are professional board members with no qualifications to discuss road safety. This is why the RSA's attitude to road safety is more Helen Lovejoy than Elon Musk.

    The only ones with any passing resemblence to "qualified" are a former traffic Garda, a doctor of rehabilitation and a civil engineer.

    The rest are politicians and arts graduates.

    In fairness, board members don't need to be functional experts. The functional experts should be on staff, not in the boardroom.


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    #1394
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,494 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    RainyDay wrote: »
    In fairness, board members don't need to be functional experts. The functional experts should be on staff, not in the boardroom.
    Completely agree but the question then is, are they? And if so, do they place popular opinion above their reputation?


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    #1395
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    RainyDay wrote: »
    In fairness, board members don't need to be functional experts. The functional experts should be on staff, not in the boardroom.

    Agreed. But the manner in which the RSA conduct themselves creates the impression of staff who have little knowledge of, or professional interest in, analysing crashes.

    On the contrary they give the impression of simply picking out random facts designed to support specific commercial and.political goals.


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    #1396
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Certainly I feel the RSA's research falls often into "policy-based evidence-making."

    Something about the life expectancy and cycling in the Netherlands here:
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34498871

    Just saw on Twitter; continuing on from tangent earlier in thread.


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    #1397
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Our lone RSA-clad representative at the European summit on cycling reappears here:

    http://idonotdespair.com/2015/10/11/a-president-said-it-and-19-ministers-agreed-nothing-compares-to-the-simple-pleasure-of-a-bike-ride/

    (Commentary a bit harsh actually.)


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    #1398
    Seweryn
    Registered Users Posts: 4,487 ✭✭✭Seweryn


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    Our lone RSA-clad representative at the European summit on cycling reappears here:

    http://idonotdespair.com/2015/10/11/a-president-said-it-and-19-ministers-agreed-nothing-compares-to-the-simple-pleasure-of-a-bike-ride/
    Hmm, he really must have felt as out of place as he looked.
    Or just should have offered the "safety gear" to other ministers too :).


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    #1399
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    Our lone RSA-clad representative at the European summit on cycling reappears here:

    http://idonotdespair.com/2015/10/11/a-president-said-it-and-19-ministers-agreed-nothing-compares-to-the-simple-pleasure-of-a-bike-ride/

    (Commentary a bit harsh actually.)

    So our own Pascal is the hi-vis dork then?


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    #1400
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    RainyDay wrote: »
    So our own Pascal is the hi-vis dork then?

    No, not him.

    365244.jpg

    ht @cosaingalway on twitter


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    #1401
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Ah tks, one of the Irish officials then, I guess?


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    #1402
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Guess so. Imagine if it's one of the Dutch delegation!!


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    #1403
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,802 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I like that the definition of low speed is less than 50 km/hr :eek:
    Vincenzo Nibbly wrote: »
    "Some 83 per cent of cycling accidents occur when there is a vehicle such as a car or a lorry involved.
    Traumadoc wrote: »
    Any fatal cycling injuries I have been involved, with a cycle helmet would not have saved them.( in fact they were all wearing helmets).
    Just a reminder that cycling helmets are not designed to handle vehicle impacts.
    They are not designed for speeds reached in downhill descents.

    They are only designed for falling off your bike at typical commuter speeds.


    If protection at typical vehicles is needed then you need a motorbike helmet.



    Just to re-iterate that.

    Bicycle helmets are not designed for vehicular impacts.


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    #1404
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Here is an article about a radio interview with Gilchrist. Relatively moderate attitude, more so than I would have expected. Pro-wearing, as you might expect, but not pro-compulsion, and willing to admit that his research showed potential downsides to wearing.
    http://irishcycle.com/2015/10/12/rsa-funded-researcher-admits-helmets-could-increase-risk-of-brain-injury/


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    #1405
    schemingbohemia
    Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Ah tks, one of the Irish officials then, I guess?

    Just because they're wearing an RSA hi-viz doesn't necessarily make them an RSA official or a Departmental official.


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    #1406
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    schemingbohemia wrote: »
    Just because they're wearing an RSA hi-viz doesn't necessarily make them an RSA official or a Departmental official.

    You're right, they might work for a foreign govt....

    :rolleyes:


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    #1407
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    It's Mikael Colville-Andersen working undercover, in the style of The Saint.


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    #1408
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    The Guardian weighs in on the helmet debate
    In Seattle, helmets have been mandatory for 12 years – but many cycling advocates argue such laws discourage cycling while doing nothing to improve road safety. Should cyclists in London be fined if they don’t wear a helmet?


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    #1409
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Not sure the Seattle bike share scheme is as successful as they're making out in the article.
    Seattle is working on a city takeover and expansion of the underused Pronto Cycle Share network
    http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/seattle-plans-to-take-over-expand-pronto-bike-sharing-network/

    It's quite a new scheme, to be fair. And annual membership is $85.

    How Randy Swart managed to get himself regarded as an expert on anything is beyond me.


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    #1410
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    Here is an article about a radio interview with Gilchrist. Relatively moderate attitude, more so than I would have expected. Pro-wearing, as you might expect, but not pro-compulsion, and willing to admit that his research showed potential downsides to wearing.
    http://irishcycle.com/2015/10/12/rsa-funded-researcher-admits-helmets-could-increase-risk-of-brain-injury/

    I have it on good authority that the cycle campaigner brought in as a counterpoint to Prof Gilchrist was also disarmed by the apparent reasonableness of the Profs position.


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    #1411
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,744 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    More on Seattle's bike share scheme on Twitter:
    https://twitter.com/modacitylife/status/653761568186875904

    Not sure that constitutes "proof", as Seattle is only doing a little worse than Denver, but having visited Seattle, I would say that Seattle, though a bit hilly, probably should be doing a bit better than that. Pretty suitable for cycling around, I thought.

    Anyway, Seattle's scheme certainly isn't strong evidence that a bike-share scheme can do just fine with a helmet law in place.


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